Big turning points in our "stories"

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

The purpose of this thread is to collect stories from members about "turning points" in their relationships.  Perhaps others can see themselves in these and will feel emboldened to take the next step.

Recently in a thread or two some have asked about my history and how I "got to where I am now".

I've place a couple links below to places where I've written about some of that. 

(look at my entries in these threads)

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=341351.0

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=341102.0


Some broad thoughts on what really helped me.

1.  I didn't need any more experience/training to tell bad stories about my wife or understand how "wrong" she was.  I did need to accept that she sometimes "saw" the world in ways that didn't make sense to me.  Her emotional state greatly affected this.  Energy I used to spend trying to convince my wife of my way of seeing things was largely wasted and many times had a bad affect on our relationship.

2.  I was in charge of living my life.  I was not in charge of living my wife's life or "fixing" what I perceived to be wrong or unhelpful.

3.  Boundaries to protect my values. 
https://www.bpdfamily.com/content/setting-boundaries



Certainly there are many "tactics" that flow from these "big picture views".

Best,

FF

[formflier]

The purpose of this thread is to collect stories from members about "turning points" in their relationships.  Perhaps others can see themselves in these and will feel emboldened to take the next step.

Recently in a thread or two some have asked about my history and how I "got to where I am now".

I've place a couple links below to places where I've written about some of that. 

(look at my entries in these threads)

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=341351.0

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=341102.0


Some broad thoughts on what really helped me.

1.  I didn't need any more experience/training to tell bad stories about my wife or understand how "wrong" she was.  I did need to accept that she sometimes "saw" the world in ways that didn't make sense to me.  Her emotional state greatly affected this.  Energy I used to spend trying to convince my wife of my way of seeing things was largely wasted and many times had a bad affect on our relationship.

2.  I was in charge of living my life.  I was not in charge of living my wife's life or "fixing" what I perceived to be wrong or unhelpful.

3.  Boundaries to protect my values. 
https://www.bpdfamily.com/content/setting-boundaries



Certainly there are many "tactics" that flow from these "big picture views".

Best,

FF

[Notwendy]

Turning points for me were gaining emotionally healthy boundaries.

I didn't have them. Boundaries in my home growing up didn't exist. We were not individuals. Our sole purpose was to appease and soothe BPD mom and do her bidding. Our feelings as kids were not heard. Only hers were. Her point of view prevailed. If she was upset and blamed us, of course it was our fault and our job to fix it, whatever it was. She also defined us. If she accused us of being bad kids, well we must be bad kids.

I brought this into my marriage. If my H was upset and blamed he, of course, he's right, and I need to do something about it. If he decided to do the ST, it was my fault and I had to figure out why and beg him to tell me.

Like FF said, I also had to understand that how he sees me is about how he sees things. It isn't necessarily true.

Gaining boundaries means- if someone says something about you, or accuses you, or makes meaning out of something you did. You don't have to assume it is true. You stop, think about it, decide if it is true or not. You learn to say things like "let me think about this" to gain time to actually think about it.

You pay attention to your feelings, not the other person. If you are feeling sad, upset tired, hungry-- you are not in a position to help someone else. You need to take care of your own feelings. You learn to say" I can't have this discussion now, I need to calm down first, please give me a minute". Then you go and calm down. Use this as often as you need to.

You need to be able to decide "what is me, what isn't me". If someone is upset and having a meltdown, it's their feelings not yours. You learn to stay calm and manage your own feelings and leave theirs to them. You may need to leave the room, or find some way to be alone to do that. This is OK. Don't abandon or be punitive. Use the same words" I need to calm down and think about this, I will talk to you when I feel calmer".

You learn to use "I" and not "you". This defines your boundary. "I need to calm down" means owning your feelings. " You are making me upset" is not.

My turning point was when the silent treatment didn't bother me anymore. This was a big one and it took a lot of work and help with a co-dependency sponsor. It's not my job to figure out why someone might be upset with me. It's the person's responsibility to communicate their feelings to me. I can't read minds and nobody else can either.

Another turning point was when I was accused of something that was completely untrue. I wanted to get home from a family visit. because of an impending storm. The accusation was that I was being rude. There wasn't anything rude about it. It was about staying safe. Before, I would have pleaded, tried to explain, but then I realized I have zero control over someone else's thinking. It wasn't true, and I so, I was not responsible for that.

Once you practice these steps, you will see your turning points too.

[snowglobe]

I want to get here and give a big Thank you to Formflier and NotWendy. Hard as it might be in the beginning, they slowly made me realize how much meaning I was assigning to the words (I learnt how to listen half ear, something’s need not to be heard e.g. nonsense) that we’re spoken by my ubpdh. Newsflash, not everything that comes out of other people’s mouth is true. If my ubpdh’s views don’t align with my view of the reality I no longer try and convince him. After all, it is this validation and attention he is seeking by raging and blaming me. Secondly, I no longer internalize his moods and reactions. In my ubpdh’s case it is comorbid bipolar type 2 and borderline. He  gets into the state of delusional thinking, and it’s fruitless to try and reason or try to understand him. I have to let it go and wait for it to pass. Silent treatments and abandonments of the matrimonial bed are big in our relationships. When things go wrong, he leaves and wants me to cry, beg and suffer for him to come back. It takes titanic efforts and used to leave me depleted and humiliated. Much in the same door mat manner. Over the years on this board I no longer come and get him. If he needs to self soothe or be alone, I leave him. It is not my fault that he finds me repulsive and tells me to leave him alone. I also had to learnt to self soothe and fall asleep peacefully by  myself. Horrible as it sounds, I find comfort that if he ever left for good, or something happened to him, I would be able to continue normal sleep pattern that would ultimately keep me alive and sane for my children. Finally, much in Victor Frankel’s existential view I found my sole purpose for my children, so I can tolerate his dysrwgulation. I image them being exposed to his moods and states on their own, and realize that I can endure much more for the sake of them having some form of balance in my presence. Thus, if you have the purpose for living, you can overcome anything.

[UBPDHelp]

I’ll second what Snowglobe said — thank you FormFlier and notwendy and all the other wonderful advisors!  Your support is invaluable.

I am just beginning my journey finding my boundaries and learning tools after 25+ years of marriage.

Unfortunately I didn’t find this site for help soon enough and so while I can semi-detach (I know the actual truth of MY story) and know his words are just a feeble (but hugely impactful) attempt to control me, I have a tremendous amount of resentment towards him. I don’t know if I can overcome that for him, but I am a firm believer of forgiveness, even if its sole purpose is for MY sanity.

I feel my level of engagement for “nonsense” dwindling, but I also feel it is somewhat a false response as he is currently consumed by the pandemic. I feel him simmering under the surface and anticipate that when he does let it out it won’t be frustration about the situation we are ALL in, but rather about his unfounded grievances towards me.

As notwendy mentioned a turning point for her was when the ST no longer bothered her. I am not totally there (I still WISH things could be different) but am appreciating the peace ST brings. I think when that flip totally happens, it will be a game changer. Some days I am absolutely there and others not quite.

Anyway, thank you FF for starting this discussion. I really believe we learn so much from others’ stories. Realize cookie cutter doesn’t work, but the tools and experiences can often translate and the feeling of not being alone offers so much peace and self empowerment.

[Notwendy]

Hi Snowglobe- thanks for the shout out. It is good to "see" you here and that you are feeling more centered!

[formflier]

  I feel him simmering under the surface and anticipate that when he does let it out it won’t be frustration about the situation we are ALL in, but rather about his unfounded grievances towards me.
 

One thing that I am still learning is to separate obvious emotional displays from "the reason".

I used to think it was "all about me" or "directed at me".  Now I think very little is directed at me.

They do what they do because of them...rarely because of us.

Best,

FF

[UBPDHelp]

Hi FF,

You know me, I’m not good without concrete examples!

One thing that I am still learning is to separate obvious emotional displays from "the reason".

I used to think it was "all about me" or "directed at me".  Now I think very little is directed at me.

They do what they do because of them...rarely because of us.

Can you share an example?

Is there any way calling me a hillbilly slut is about him?  Or, he feels bad about who he is, so he calls me vile names — is that what you mean?

I’d like to believe it’s not about me, but these attacks feel very personal and he is sure damn smug when he’s done.

Thank you. You have been a tremendous support and I consider you a friend, virtual or otherwise.

[formflier]

Hey...feelings of friendship are mutual!   

This "world" that we inhabit (BPDish stuff) is..hmmm, what do I say...different.  Someone that hasn't personally experienced it can't "get it".

So...I get it.  You are "getting" parts of it and are "peeking around the corner" at some really counter-intuitive things and I assure you that I have 100% empathy for the "do what?" reaction to some of what you are seeing.

It's ok...I also see you trying really hard to get it and taking steps of faith.  That's very good for your future and the future of your relationship

It won't be a straight line.  Few steps forward, couple back, few forward, a bunch back a huge step forward...etc etc.  Don't focus on one or two steps.  Stay "big picture" and realize where your trend is going.

Can you share an example?

Is there any way calling me a hillbilly slut is about him?  Or, he feels bad about who he is, so he calls me vile names — is that what you mean?

Yes..projection.

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=70931.0

Here is the thing that I did that helped. 

If your husband accused you of having a threesome with the tin man and Dorothy...would you become indignant or would you have a hard time restraining your chuckle?

Seriously...

I would "ridiculousize" (new FF word) the accusations so I would smile (at least on the inside) and then instead of being pissed I would "know" why she does that.  (it's about her...not me and definitely not reality, yet it "feels" real to her)

I'll share an example (perhaps my first boundary hold and extinction burst...in a bit.

Best,

FF

[Notwendy]

This is a favorite thinking exercise a therapist taught me.

It's ultimately about boundaries. If someone accuses me of something, or calls me a name, I can stop and think- is this true about me, or not.

If I have truly hurt someone's feelings- I can make ammends.

If it isn't true, I don't have to accept it, or defend it. Defending it adds energy ( drama) to it.

The things people who are close to us say can feel hurtful because of our attachment or our poor boundaries with them. What if a total stranger came up to you and called you a hilbilly slut? You would probably think it was inappropriate and rude. The person doesn't know you at all. You would also probably not feel hurt.

So whenever you feel personally hurt by something said to you, substitute "pink elephant " for that. If someone called you a pink elephant, you wouldn't take it personally. You are quite certain you aren't a pink elephant. You would also not react or defend it, because, it's crazy to think you are a pink elephant.

Doing this helped me to not be emotionally reactive to things said to me. If they were true, then I could make amends. If not, then they aren't true.

Try it- with practice it gets better.

[formflier]

  Defending it adds energy ( drama) to it.
 

And I used to think that defending it "helped" the situation since I believed everyone wanted to know "the truth".

pwBPD generally don't wan to "know".  They want to deal with their feelings.

So...when I thought I was helping..I was actually hurting.

Best,

FF

[AskingWhy]

I, too, am reaching a turning point in my R/S with my uBPD H.

H is very codependent with his children from his first marriage.  All three are adults, around the age of 30, and all in the BPD and NPD spectrum.  One D is addicted to drugs and lies to her F about it while he shells out thousands of dollars for medical bills and rehab, not to mention all the totaled cars and lack of income from her leaving jobs with lofty plans to go back to college.  One D is a mother of young children, and torments her codependent H, who happens to be a very nice young man.  The S is mostly homeless and on drugs and alcohol, except for the times he drops in on our home unexpectedly to ask for money, sleeps on the couch for a week, and then disappears for months until the next time. The S has no phone so we don't know where he is most of the time.

For all of the children, H is so codependent with them that he has tolerated their abuse in all the twenty years I have been married to their F. They verbally abuse him, insult him and blackmail him for money for which H is all too happy to dole out thousands of dollars for their drug habits.

For me, H has nothing but resentment.  H resents that I have refused to be his punching bag for the last several years.  I now apply boundaries and don't allow myself to be abused any longer.  

I happen to have bad allergies that crop up in the spring time.  I have headaches and the pollen sometimes makes it hard for me to breath, and I get asthma like symptoms.  The issues disappear when spring time ends.

Well, H is telecommuting due to the seclusion and H gets it in his head to open the glass door of his den because it's too stuffy, not thinking the room opens out to the garden where we have flowering fruit trees. There is a ton of pollen, and H did not think that all this pollen might have an effect on me.  When I found out the door was wide open an letting all the pollen into the house, I was livid.  Did he think the pollen was only going to stay in his room? I can smell the pollen every time he opens the door to leave his room.  I asked him if he thought that opening the glass door to his room might affect me.  He angrily slammed the glass door closed, as if doing something that was of my benefits was putting him out.

Early in March, his older D was hospitalised for recreational drug overdose.  She had vague symptoms of illness and paranoia that caused her to be hospitalized.  She had lied about the drugs, telling her F that she had quit and had not done them for a long time.  The doctor told H that her symptoms will disappear once she stopped the drugs.  H took a lot of time off from work to go to the hospital (D was in the psych ward) and spent many hours of family leave at her bedside, worried and nervous, only to be told it was the drugs and not some horrible illness.  (H has pledged to pay for her insurance charges.  "There, there, dear!  Don't have a worry about this.  I got it."  The amount will be in the thousands.)

Now H can't even keep a door closed for me for the sake of my health.  It's hard for me to take a deep breath in due to the pollen.   I take heart that the karma one makes must be paid back in full.  He has a grandson that is likely in the ASD spectrum and H is totally oblivious to this.  I don't intend to tell him anything of my suspicions.  My doctor, who knows of my reactive depression over the years married to this BPD man, told me it's not my place to get involved with his family.  When I told H of my suspicions of his druggie D's health, he projected his upset at me.  From now on, I keep my mouth shut. No one appreciates my concern and willingness to be of help.  Instead, I get used as a punching bag.

Time for me to pull up a chair, grab a soft drink and pop corn, and watch the show each time the curtain rises.

[formflier]

I, too, am reaching a turning point in my R/S with my uBPD H.
 

What do you plan on doing differently after this turning point?

Best,

FF

[GaGrl]

What do you plan on doing differently after this turning point?

Best,

FF

I am curious, also, AskingWhy, because while you feel there was a turning point in your relationship with your husband, I don't see benefit for where it is now. Sitting back and watching the show doesn't move your personal growth forward any, nor does it help your husband or improve your marriage.

You seem stuck. Are you content staying where you are now.

[AskingWhy]

My turning point is understanding that what I do or say does not affect how my H or his entire twisted family will do things.

The drug addicted children, the uNPD D and her family (and small children) and the gambling of my octegenarian FIL will not be impacted by what I say, if fact, H will project his disappointment, anger and hurt onto me.

This is not my mon key and not my cir cus.  I have to step back and be happy with myself and not be codependent.  These people are all adults and can take the consequences of their own actions.  It's not easy for me as I am a codependent (like most of us are on these forums) and want to help and rescue.

[formflier]

My turning point is understanding that what I do or say does not affect how my H or his entire twisted family will do things.
 

Is this really true?

Goes against my understanding of the reasons for using tools, responding instead of reacting and all that. 

I would think your actions would have a large affect on your husband.

Best,

FF

[snowglobe]

My turning point is understanding that what I do or say does not affect how my H or his entire twisted family will do things.

The drug addicted children, the uNPD D and her family (and small children) and the gambling of my octegenarian FIL will not be impacted by what I say, if fact, H will project his disappointment, anger and hurt onto me.

This is not my mon key and not my cir cus.  I have to step back and be happy with myself and not be codependent.  These people are all adults and can take the consequences of their own actions.  It's not easy for me as I am a codependent (like most of us are on these forums) and want to help and rescue.

Hello Askingwhy,
I followed your story for several years now. I’m sorry your husband is still at the point of projecting his sorrows on to you. After what you described of many years of verbal abuse, you seem burnt out. Like most people on This forum you have triggers and narrative. From your posts I’ve observed your narrative of coming second, not being cared for, as much as your husband cares for his kids and receiving the short end of the stick. You described being in love with him in your earlier years of marriage, and how each subsequent break up threat affected your ability to love and trust him. I too have my narrative. It affected and still does affect the lens that I look through at any gesture, action, threat and disregulation. At the same time I accept that those are MY perceptions. They are here because someone hurt me before (including him in our earlier years) and now I add another meaning to the insult. I also began to take part in my own therapy, recognizing how I affect him, without even realizing. As a result, I developed my own boundaries, that have nothing to do with him. These boundaries now apply to everyone. If the relationships don’t suit me, not occurring on my terms, I step away and busy myself with things I can control. There has been a grieving process of accepting that I will not get “closure” for any past transgression. Grieving over loosing the “idea and image” of having a mentally healthy partner. I learnt to lean on other people for different needs. When and if he comes through for me emotionally, financially, as a partner or deliver an act of service- it’s only a bonus. He doesn’t owe me anything. With that, our life is a lot more peaceful, as I wrestle with myself to regulate and not to dump my emotions on a person who can’t handle his own. Life is a lot more peaceful, but less engaging. I’m not going to lie, sometimes I miss the intensity and the emotional dance of the push and pull dynamics. For us, it was resulting in passionate love making and draw towards each other. Yet, for the benefit of the “family unit” and our children, this dynamic is much better suited. I’m great full to everyone on this platform who drilled the SET, DEARMAN, and biff ways of communicating into me. It became my life jacket in a sea of chaos. I just float till it gets better. I also have my own boat that I retreat to when ubpdh starts rocking our boat. Askingwhy, I really want to see you pain free. I’m not big on happiness idea, the idea that people should fit like gloves if it’s meant to be is fatalistic in nature and highly improbable. I read your posts full of agony, resentment and bitterness with how unfair your ubpdh is. Your pain is very real and valid. The question is, while focusing on him and his kids, you don’t search for the root of your own pain. There is a beautiful fiction novel, I highly recommend to everyone living with a person who has bpd. It is titled  “ Berlin Syndrome”, and tells a tale of a young woman, who one day meets a perfect gentlemen on her journey who sweeps her off of her feet and invites her to stay with him. He then kidnaps her and keeps her captive in his apartment. It’s very symbolic of bpd, as he tries to capture her essence and keep her forever, while simultaneously hurting her. This goes on for a while, until one day she realizes that the door to the apartment has been unlocked for a while, and she chose to stay. In the same logic, the door to your freedom (emotional, I don’t encourage you to run) has been unlocked for a while. Yet, why do you still wait for your husband for the key?

[Enabler]

This is wonderful peeps.

My turning points have been:
- Realising that a lot of the things that are said by my W are lies... when I say lies, some are overt lies, just utter fabrications to cover up for something she feels ashamed about or just wants to disguise the truth. Some things are twisted versions of the truth, a slightly warped version of events based on her own emotional experience or often seemingly a desire that the experience should match her narrative. I realised we all do this to a lesser extent, but it took some mental gymnastics to accept how wholesale it was, how deeply ingrained into almost all daily life and into trivial things as well.

- Her anger (typically silent treatment) wasn't something I could solve, and similarly to what others have mentioned, it wasn't always about me or anything I had done... although I suspect the vast majority of it is. In many respects the acceptance that since her reasons for her internal rage were not reasonable or rational, they could not be solved by reasonable or rational discussion... that just made it worse.

- Understanding of where she feels comfortable. My W wants to be the victim. Any attempt to move her from this position just results in her fighting to get back to that spot. Accepting that only she can choose not to want to be in that position ad act accordingly... and pushing a divorce forward is not her choosing to not be a victim, it is IMHO her entrenching her position as victim and crystallising it forever more. Understanding that where she perceives herself to be vs where she is in reality are two separate things, and I should treat her according to where she is vs where she believes herself to be, allowing me to look through the sense of guilt she projects onto me to act appropriately with consideration to my own needs and desires.

Best

Enabler

[formflier]

Understanding that where she perceives herself to be vs where she is in reality are two separate things, and I should treat her according to where she is vs where she believes herself to be, allowing me to look through the sense of guilt she projects onto me to act appropriately with consideration to my own needs and desires.
 

I too am finding this thread informative and thought provoking.

For instance, when I read this I "nod in agreement".  Then in my "checklist style evaluation" I go through and deliberately look at it from alternate points of view, especially those I need to work on (or believe myself weak in)

I'm very much into "objective reality".  I struggle with validating things/feelings that seem to me "objectively false" or "have no basis".

Yet I wonder and sometimes try to validate where people believe they are...maybe insert a pause and then quizzically ask a question that "nudges" or "forces" the other person in a conversation to look at things from a very different point of view.

Not sure how good I'll ever get at doing this.  I still feel very "clumsy" when trying to do stuff like this.

How do others handle these type of things?

Best,

FF

[Enabler]

I have very recent examples of things which have been put to me as generally accepted (I'd be crazy to think her stance wasn't the case), yet when I paused, dug and asked for examples I only received 1 example and that example came from another very disordered individual. So that one (disordered) persons version of 'reasonable' was brandished around as the generally accepted version of reasonable, and one that I would be unreasonable to not adhere to.

'Always, Never & Forever' statements are good indicators of this type of conversation. It used to prompt me to argue the absolute nature and find error in the statement... "there was that time when I did do that...!". I try and avoid that now.

[Cat Familiar]

I'm very much into "objective reality".  I struggle with validating things/feelings that seem to me "objectively false" or "have no basis".

Yet I wonder and sometimes try to validate where people believe they are...maybe insert a pause and then quizzically ask a question that "nudges" or "forces" the other person in a conversation to look at things from a very different point of view.

Not sure how good I'll ever get at doing this.  I still feel very "clumsy" when trying to do stuff like this.

How do others handle these type of things?

Keeping in mind “don’t validate the invalid,” I try and ask a question to fill in the details.

It’s difficult for me too, not to sound contrived, clumsy, phony or overly dumb, but it’s a good skill to work on.

I’ve got years of experience with my poker face after growing up with a BPD mom, so I can count on that. I also don’t mind playing dumb at times. I think the hardest part for me is not having an agenda.

If I can ask an open ended question that elicits details and perhaps extracts the thinking process, without disclosing my attitude or belief, that can lead to an aha moment.

So often people come to a belief and never re-examine their original thinking process that led them to adopt that concept. Sometimes a seemingly innocent    non-directive question can uncover faulty thinking.

It’s worth a try!   

[formflier]

I’ve got years of experience with my poker face  

Lately she has been trying to "pierce" my poker face.

Randomly she "observes" or sometimes "accuses" me of "smirking".

FFw:  "I noticed that you smirked when the King was imposing his will on the Queen (or some other woman)".  (We have been watching shows about kings and queens).  

Then insert a horrid reason why I was smirking.

Ummm...

I finally said "FFw...I don't intend to send you the message you are apparently clinging to...in facial expressions I don't intend to make and don't believe I'm making."

"Is there really an upside to this conversation from me."  (FF stares at her intently...not "menacing"...but intent.  Then kinda cocked one eyebrow up and turned my head)

She chuckled a bit and said "probably not."  (the issue was dropped).

This was several days ago.

Sigh..

Best,

FF

[Cat Familiar]

Isn’t it interesting how one of pwBPD’s go-to strategies is to try and put us on the defensive? I’ve gotten suckered into that so many times.

I’m a dyedinthewool explainer. So if someone asks me a question or posits a theory about me, they’ll get far more information back than they want.  

This bites me in the butt as I automatically answer questions or counter statements from my pwBPD that I should take more time to consider or refrain from answering at all.