Showing pictures and old things against my specific request

[formflier]

So to get a vibe for our relationship and "the rules" it's no big deal for either of us to look through drawers that are obviously mine or obviously hers if something is missing or misplaced.  Usually we ask first.

Today my wife was looking for "her" set of keys to her vehicle.  I had borrowed them to take it somewhere and it was either me or S17 that had kept/lost/misplaced them.  

I say all this to say I had no issue with my wife looking in my things in the bedroom and she did find her keys.  I apologized.

Then she said...hey kids come look at this stuff.

She had found some sort of picture album of mine from college...from before her.  (Months earlier some stuff got moved around in the attic and I found a stash of my stuff. I pulled a couple things to look at/do something with later and they basically ended up "filed' in the drawer.)

She makes a big public thing about showing them to kids in front of me

"FFw, please don't show those."

ignores it

"FFw, if I wanted to show those to anyone, I would have brought them out myself"

sort of made a sound but really didn't respond.

"FFw, please put those back.  I don't want them shown."

FFw:  "They are just pictures..it's no big deal."

When she had shown them all she put them back.

And...now I'm stewing...

Best,

FF
 

[Stella Blue]

Oof. So sorry she didn’t respect your boundaries.

[Cat Familiar]

Do you think she was trying to embarrass you? Or could it be related to another issue? You were planning to have a difficult conversation. How did that pan out?

[formflier]

The difficult conversation went a bit sideways, we really didn't get into it yet for a variety of reasons.

She certainly wasn't helping to have a stable conversation...and I don't chase.  So...

Giving her the benefit of the doubt, she was likely just having fun to start with.

But...three times ignoring a request to put something away that is obviously personal to an adult, for whatever reason it turned into a "see what I can do to him" thing. 

I had a conversation with my P.  We practiced succinctly letting her know how angry it made me, what a poor example she set for our children and to knock it off...no further discussion.

No further discussion because you don't debate...no debatable options.

We'll see how that goes.  I'm getting to a better place.  My day was going sideways anyway, due to things not related to pwBPD.

Best,

FF

[UBPDHelp]

Hi FF,

Sorry your W did this to you. It sux in front of kids b/c adding fuel with an audience is a tough call.  My H is more of a make a dig kind of guy, and when in front of the kids, it can be tough. Don’t want to show the kiddos you put up with it, but if the pwBPD is willing to ratchet it up, that’s not good either.

I feel like I have zero advice cuz I still can’t get out of my own way, but just wanted to let you know you’ve got this and I support you, too.

Hope there’s some recognition that a boundary was breeched and that your difficult conversation finds its way round to you with a good resolution.

To relate, I have been trying to find a good time (soo elusive) to talk to H about a minor money matter. Canceling something with a deposit and using deposit elsewhere. He was either in a bad mood and it didn’t feel right or he was in a good mood and I didn’t want to turn that into a bad mood. Feels like trying to jump in on a double Dutch jump rope (haha, you may need to look that up).  Then, he gets an email that our cancellation date is approaching. So at least I know I can cancel. The debate on where the money goes is still up, but I don’t see how he can debate it when I’m paying actual bills.

Anyway, my point is, not always the right time but sometimes they resolve. And hopefully your W has had time to think about it calmly.

Let us know.

[Notwendy]

FF, there are a couple ways to look at this. From your perspective, it is a violation of your Biblical position as head of family. But another way to look at it is - it's triangulation. W and Kids bonding over the pictures with you being "out'. She seems to do this a lot, criticise you in front of the kids. But rather than see it being about you, or your position, it's basically triangulation. This doesn't make it OK, but I think knowing the tendency could help. Either way, it's a boundary violation. You asked her not to, but she did anyway.

[formflier]

So if I look at is as triangulation, does it help form a response or a better response.

I see the point..I'm just trying to figure out how to "use" it.


Umm, I see this not so much as "Biblical", but in this way.

A person took something that was obviously personal to another person and all of the contents were from "before" the relationship started.  Without permission those items were removed from there place and shown  to others.

Ok..I can see this as being a debatable issue about "norms" up until this point.

Clarity was gained when the owner of the stuff politely asked it not to be shown in several different ways.

The "taker" then ignores that and makes diminishing comments about the request.

I can certainly make Biblical arguments against such behavior, but that really wasn't my intent.

And not sure if it changes anything or advice...just trying to be clear.

Best,

FF

[Fian]

To give a different perspective, it is not uncommon for loved ones to show embarrassing photos of you.  She probably felt you needed to "lighten up."  I can easily see a non-BPD person taking the same actions.

[formflier]

That perspective apparently ignores my point and many critical details.  

If a non or a person with BPD had pictures of me and it was their pictures...I would agree and might even see a pathway for them to deny my requests to stop showing them.  I don't control their pictures...it's theirs to do so as they see fit.


That there was an initial effort I find not much fault at all.  That after 3 specific requests to cease and desist she persisted until she was completely done...that was over the top.


Best,

FF

[UBPDHelp]

Hi FF,

I agree.  Although I also suspect she didn’t mean any harm to you — what you may find embarrassing (or whatever emotion you have to it), she may find endearing.  That said, it is disrespectful to ignore three requests you made to not do something with YOUR personal belongings. You have every right to your privacy and how you want your things shared, or not.

For me, and quite possibly for you/your wife, this would be furthered by the hypocrisy if the roles were reversed.

All said and done, my friend, you are right BUT you have progressed so far and so well in your relationship with your wife, I am certain you can swiftly and effectively restate this boundary and get back on the well earned track.

Sending  your way.

[once removed]

To give a different perspective, it is not uncommon for loved ones to show embarrassing photos of you.  She probably felt you needed to "lighten up."  I can easily see a non-BPD person taking the same actions.

That perspective apparently ignores my point and many critical details. 

that perspective explains where your wife was coming from; a critical detail.

my parents have done this to me a number of times; exactly the same scenario, brought up things that embarrassed me to an ex, continued even after i succinctly, without escalating, asked them not to, and then finally got pissed. from their perspective, parents/loved ones do this. from my perspective, i can get that, i have done it myself, but from my perspective, ideally, multiple requests ought to be heeded. doesnt necessarily matter if im being unreasonable.

okay. i dont know if this is a matter of who is in the right or wrong.

what would you like to see happen going forward? how do you plan on responding?

[juju2]

so sorry ff you experienced this.

I think it is a childish way to get back at you for some unfinished business or perceived slight on your part.

As a matter of fact I would almost guarantee it.

It's a quick way to get back at you.
Now you get the fun job if trying to guess what the heck you did in the first place.

So accept it and move on.

acceptance is the key for me to a lot of things.  It doesn't mean I agree with it, condone it, or vote for it.

All it means is I notice what just happened.  I will not take retribution.

If I can do this.  And who knows, maybe I will see what was it I did that caused this childish response.  Something rattled her and she sees this as the only path to get even.

Take what you like, it may or may not apply.

[formflier]

my parents have done this to me a number of times; exactly the same scenario

I want to get this right.

While you were an adult, your parents went into your room, went into your dresser and found pictures that were only personal to you.  Removed those and without asking started showing them to others in front of you.

Then while this was happening you asked in three different ways for them to relent and they did not?

For the future I'm considering my options.  Haven't figured that out yet.  In general I would like to be asked prior to rummaging and asked prior to showing.

Best,

FF

[PeteWitsend]

To give a different perspective, it is not uncommon for loved ones to show embarrassing photos of you.  She probably felt you needed to "lighten up."  I can easily see a non-BPD person taking the same actions.

that perspective explains where your wife was coming from; a critical detail.

my parents have done this to me a number of times; exactly the same scenario, brought up things that embarrassed me to an ex, continued even after i succinctly, without escalating, asked them not to, and then finally got pissed. ...

I quoted both of these because I think you guys are WAY off. 

once removed, with all due respect, I don't think your situation is "exactly the same..." I don't know anything about your parents, but were they pwBPD?  If you had found embarrassing pictures of them, and showed them, would they laugh it off? 

My parents would do this sort of thing to me as well... it was funny.  They had embarrassing pictures and stories of themselves as kids, well-known among family lore, and there was mutual love in all this, and a willingness to give-and-take.  There wasn't that same feeling with BPDxw when past mistakes and embarrassing pictures came up; I don't know how to "objectively" say this, but it was more of an "I know it when I see it" situation. 

I have a hard time imagining FF's wife accepting the same treatment back with a laughing attitude, just like I'd imagine BPDxw in my case would.  There's always a double standard with them, and I really don't see FFw doing this just for fun, to get him to lighten up. 

[PeteWitsend]

...
For the future I'm considering my options.  Haven't figured that out yet.  In general I would like to be asked prior to rummaging and asked prior to showing.

Best,

FF

I take it your W did this because she knew you would not be happy, and she could play off this to make you look a little ridiculous in front of the "audience" she gathered.  She most likely had an "angle" here.

Maybe... maybe she was really doing this for warm "bonding" reasons; I don't know what the materials involved were, but if they were joking things, like "Hey look at the stupid haircut he had when he was 12" it's one thing; if it was "Hey, look at the painfully awkward personal moment he had" it's another.  

Like I said above, it's a "you know it when you see it" situation to me.  Context matters a lot, and it's hard to convey that in an internet post.    

FF - I understand you try to be more "above board" than I would be in this case, but I don't know what the end game is here in taking that position; you're giving your W a "go to" issue to fight over: if your personal effects are in the house, and she knows where they are, whenever she feels a need to stir the pot, she knows she can go get those, wave them around, and provoke the conflict she wants (God knows  WHY they want conflict, that's for the psychiatrists and psychologists to decide).    

In my own case, I recognized that BPDxw would not act in good faith on this issue (my old family photos, mementos, and even family heirlooms I was keeping); she would sneak and snoop when I was not around, and worse, would take advantage of this to pick fights.  

Sneaking and snooping - fine... 99.99999% of people would do that when presented with the opportunity and few would admit it.  But it was the willingness to act on this to create conflict out of nothing that I saw as the problem.  

In my case, BPDxw would alternatively find things she didn't like and ambush me in front of my kids, throw things away and deny it aggressively, or mock me for keeping them.  In the case of the kids, they were so young at the time, I wasn't bothered by what they saw as much as her willingness to act that way.

 And of course, all these things were done on a double standard... it was different when she kept mementos from school, or her mom held on to pictures of her with old boyfriends.

I saw there was no point in reasoning on this, so quietly moved all my personal effects OUT of the house, into storage, where she couldn't find them, damage them, or toss them.  This was a few bankers boxes of family photos & photo albums, mementos, and heirlooms, and a few other items she didn't like - gifts from my parents mostly.  Things I didn't need on a daily basis, or that were very valuable, but I wanted to preserve for myself and my kids.  It was not a lot of money ($40/month), but I paid for it in cash withdrawn from our mutual accounts, and felt totally justified in doing this based on her behavior.  

Note: for the record, none of this stuff was objectively damaging to our relationship; any photos of me with old girlfriends, or other women (college friends or friends' girlfriends) were all taken well before I ever met BPDxw, and none of them were "intimate" or anything like that.  At BPDxw's request - after she dug through old boxes of photos while I was at work until she found pics of me with some exes - I threw all photos of ex-GFs away.  She did not ask nicely either...

[once removed]

I don't know anything about your parents, but were they pwBPD?

pete, im struggling to see what this has to do with BPD.

I want to get this right.

so thats what you latched on to to argue 

fair enough ff, not "exactly the same".

When she had shown them all she put them back.

And...now I'm stewing...

what she did was disrespectful. you dont have any qualm from me that if a person doesnt want their pictures shown, asks three times for them not to be, and the person continues to do it, they are wrong to do so.

is it possible that that can be true and that you can also be making a bigger deal of it than needs to be made?

i think that its pretty natural for a wife who finds her husbands photo album to want to look at it. i think it might be natural to want to share it with the kids.

again, thats not to say that its respectful, if you dont want it to happen.

but yes, i think her interest trumped that (right or wrong), and i think she was telling you to lighten up. perhaps not "exactly the same" scenario, but in the same way as my parents did to me.

what was the issue here? were the photos incriminating in some way? of too personal a nature?

[formflier]

so thats what you latched on to to argue  
 

Please don't experience this as an "argument", please experience it as a clarification.  We all use words with different amounts of "exactness".  As you know I eschew assumptions and embrace clarification.

what was the issue here? were the photos incriminating in some way? of too personal a nature?

Not at all incriminating or "too personal".  My wife has said horrible things about me in that time period (before she ever knew me) that have no basis in fact and has also said horrible things about the people in many of the photos, many of which she never knew personally.

I've been asking myself this question (in bold) and have been trying to dig down.  Here is the best I have.

Perhaps a couple of years ago my wife decided to "improve" my childhood Bible for me.  This Bible was well worn (read falling apart) and any time I moved it/used it I treated it as a delicate and precious object.  (My wife knew this)

The also knew it was precious to me, knew how important it was that I protect it and knew that I keep it in the back of one of my drawers so it took effort to get to it AND that it would not be disturbed.  She knew that the "character" of the Bible (the condition) was part of what endeared it to me because they represented lots of page turning, lots of carrying, lots of use.  A prior round of "book improvement" was done by her and she knew I declined to be part of that in any with my "my books".

I could go on.

She decided to  improve more of her books including some of her Bibles and based on her prior experience didn't ask me if I wanted any of my books improved.

Yet...she decided to surprise me by recovering and rebinding my childhood Bible and also made a deliberate decision to "reveal" that to me while I was alone at home vice doing it in person.  In other words made a decision to "give" me the gift that was important that she give me...she left it for me to find alone.

That gave me time to flip out and have time with my P and all that before she got home.

As part of the "reconciliation process" she promised never to get, alter or "deal with" in any way any of my personal effects without express permission ahead of time.  

She did this (made that promise) as a token to get me to believe that she recovered my Bible "in good faith" that I would experience it as a token of her love, vice experience it as a desecration of my faith and childhood.  (both of which she has explicitly said horrible things about...again with no basis in fact)

I was doubtful at the time she was sincere or truthful.

I have very little doubt now.

I'm also upset with myself because I considered the possibility (at the time) of locking many of these items up but decided against it because I believed it would be inflammatory or some such thing.  I'm sad and angry at myself now that I put her feelings above my own (now that I have a basis in fact for those feelings)

So...that most likely helps explain why it's a big deal.

Best,

FF

[UBPDHelp]

Good morning...this is an interesting and eye opening discussion.

I want to make this statement and would love feedback.

In my experience, so many of today’s reactions are based upon gained knowledge of previous experience. For me, the many experiences with my uBPDH are confusing at best and downright mind-altering maddening at worst. How I feel about why he does things often lacks the “innocent” motive based upon his prior behavior (including explicitly telling me it was meant destructively). Not to say that I don’t give him plenty of passes that he didn’t mean to be fill in the blank.

So many discussions I’ve had on here are boiling down the current issue and away from understanding why he does these things. I understand this need and honestly the reasons why are veered so far from appropriate response that the possibilities become near endless.

So, how do you not pull from prior experience?  Should you even not attempt to use prior experience b/c they often don’t really know why they do things? 

For me, it’s not really about him in this need, but perhaps understanding will help me adjust my approach or know where I may be unwilling to do so.

Does that make any sense?

[formflier]

Let me add questions.

Should you pull from prior experience?

The best predictor of future behavior is?

Best,

FF

[UBPDHelp]

I also wanted to say OMG to Pete and FF.

from Pete:  In my own case, I recognized that BPDxw would not act in good faith on this issue (my old family photos, mementos, and even family heirlooms I was keeping); she would sneak and snoop when I was not around, and worse, would take advantage of this to pick fights.  

Sneaking and snooping - fine... 99.99999% of people would do that when presented with the opportunity and few would admit it.  But it was the willingness to act on this to create conflict out of nothing that I saw as the problem.  

In my case, BPDxw would alternatively find things she didn't like and ambush me in front of my kids, throw things away and deny it aggressively, or mock me for keeping them.  In the case of the kids, they were so young at the time, I wasn't bothered by what they saw as much as her willingness to act that way.

 And of course, all these things were done on a double standard... it was different when she kept mementos from school, or her mom held on to pictures of her with old boyfriends.

This feels soo familiar.  My H is also so enraged by my childhood, photos, experiences. Don’t even get me going on the few times he saw a picture of me from some school dance with my date. All teen innocence but he is incensed.

But H talks about his hs gf plenty. His teen dances were with all the girls he was sleeping with (I’m sure he’s exaggerated this and sometimes I wonder if any of it is true).  He has pictures, his true love moved to our town about 10 years ago.  I don’t care and some days I’d like to offer to drop him on her doorstep.  He told me very nonchalantly a month ago that a little keepsake he has is actually from her. Married 25 years and I’ve had this on display in our den for years and had no idea. Do I care?  Not really...it’s the double standard that p!sses me off.  

But worse is his total lack of respect for family keepsakes. Both my parents are gone and I don’t have much left of theirs. He has tried to get me to throw it out. I have it where he can’t get to it, but why should I have to hide my belongings from him?  And why the H is he so hateful to my life before him?

from FF: Not at all incriminating or "too personal".  My wife has said horrible things about me in that time period (before she ever knew me) that have no basis in fact and has also said horrible things about the people in many of the photos, many of which she never knew personally.

All I can say is yes...and I’m sorry that you’ve experienced this too.

This seems a recurring BPD trait.  Why?  Just another way to break us down?  Another way they feel threatened?  

from FF: I'm also upset with myself because I considered the possibility (at the time) of locking many of these items up but decided against it because I believed it would be inflammatory or some such thing.  I'm sad and angry at myself now that I put her feelings above my own (now that I have a basis in fact for those feelings).

Been there, too.  Damned if you do, damned if you don’t. Don’t beat yourself up.  It’s normal to believe others would behave similarly and it would never occur to you to disrespect her belongings, so why would she to yours?  But, now you know and it’s probably time to protect those keepsakes. I totally understand about recovering your Bible.  I have mine too, and really any well-loved book half of the enjoyment is the dog eared pages and little notes and just all the love and memories. You deserve those things.  Much peace to you, my friend.

[once removed]

So...that most likely helps explain why it's a big deal.

that makes a lot of sense, ff. the altering of the bible would feel like a huge violation to me, too. thats important context.

I was doubtful at the time she was sincere or truthful.

hard to say. an infuriating tendency i find in a lot of people is that they substitute their judgment for someone elses. they "know better" or "know best", and indeed often expect the other party will be appreciative. maybe, in general, its sincere (do we think your wife altered the bible just to piss you off? she could have thrown it away.), but i think we can all agree it shows a pretty bad sense of boundaries. and a person that does that sort of thing quite often wont really hear you or, or own it.

[formflier]

but i think we can all agree it shows a pretty bad sense of boundaries. and a person that does that sort of thing quite often wont really hear you or, or own it.

Have you and my P been talking?...I've heard this before...

Best,

FF

[juju2]

goodness.

Am so sorry.

so it's weird that I am dealing with a ton of his stuff.

my dog chewed up a cheap wooden carved boat, so that was my adjective, cheap.  Not his.

  He picked it up and said, huh.  this used to be nice.

He said I am not blaming you that Edog chewed it. 

I can't contain all of his things.  Some are stacked and some are boxed.  So now I am even more stressed about all this stuff.