Tricky topic -- SD12 orientation

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

Last year SD14 told us she was a boy. Basically where we are at now is that all of us are very open about having different values and beliefs, but not trying to force anyone else to share them. This is stable-ish. SD14 is doing a good job working on saying what she really thinks and feels without trying to manage others' feelings for them. DH is pretty straightforward about what values he does and doesn't have, and how they impact his decisions.

That is basically how things are rolling here with SD14. She loves spending time here and loves spending time one on one with DH especially. She is working on talking to him about how she felt when she was younger, and she's able to do that okay. I help her with math basically every day (either in person or phone) and she is pretty grateful. There is a lot of positive foundation even with some disagreements on top -- which I think is good for her to experience.

OK, so, if you guys remember, last year right around this time was when she told us she felt like a boy. We had no heads up or any communication from Mom/Stepdad, and when DH emailed them to talk, it was contemptuous, patronizing, and very "Well, WE'RE supportive and SD14 already told EVERYONE else, we can't believe you think there is any problem" etc.

SD14 also recently told DH that SD12 is having a hard time, has said (not sure if to SD14 or to Mom/Stepdad) that she feels like Mom/Stepdad are her "real" parents and DH/I are the "stepparents". Plus that "there's more going on with SD12" but "it's not my job to tell you". SD12 has been super clingy to Mom and (seeing this more) Stepdad, escalating over the last few months.

SD12 asked about the schedule on Saturday night at dinner (SD14 was there too). We said the plan was to drop them off at Mom's on Sunday morning for Mother's Day. SD12 said "I thought it was tonight" and I said that wasn't the plan. She said she wanted to go back to Mom's because she missed Stepdad. I asked if she wanted to call him and she said she didn't have a phone. I offered mine but she was noncommittal, and said she wanted to go back, so I said she and DH could talk about it. He said it was fine if she wanted to go back, so he texted Mom to set that up. DH asked if SD14 wanted to head back too, but she was like "Me time!" and wanted to stay.

SD12 then blurted out "I'm gay" and then "I wasn't planning to say that". I said "I'd love to hear more about what you think and feel" but she didn't have a lot, I think it was something like "that's how I feel". DH asked "what does that mean to you" and she said "I like girls". She jumped up from the table and ran outside to sit. We gave her a few minutes and then I asked if she was all good, and she said she was. I had the kids do the usual after dinner stuff (clear your plates etc). She was kind of hyper/high energy getting her stuff together. I took her back to Mom's, and on the way she was super off topic (let's talk about police sirens, etc). I tried some more validating questions (anything else you want to share with me? etc). I asked how long she thought she'd felt this way, and she said a year, and that she wasn't sure we would accept her. She said "all my friends already know". I asked her how she thought tonight went, and she said "medium". I asked if she felt heard, and she said yes. I said I was glad she was open with us about what she was thinking and feeling.

When I dropped her off, she ran away from me to the door and told Stepdad something. He yelled "That's the best thing in the world!"

...

So there is a lot of "content" here that we can talk about if people want to. I am concerned with the "structure" of what is happening -- most of all, that this is a carbon copy repeat of SD14's experience one year ago, which got SD14 a LOT of attention. SD14 has always been the "golden child" ("successful, talented, mature, wise, deep, insightful") at Mom's house and has been treated as a "mini-adult" almost higher than Mom. SD12 did not get much attention for a long time. Over the past year or so she has been getting a lot of attention from Mom and especially from Stepdad.

SD14's experience was that "everyone else already knew" (including friends, doctors, etc), and that Mom and Stepdad didn't share any info ahead of time with us. In their emails, they presented themselves as "wise, warm, loving, caring, supportive" people, and DH and I were to be held in contempt.

It is uncanny to me that SD12's experience is so similar. She also JUST turned 12. So, that reads to me that when she says "I've felt this way for a year", it's essentially from age 10.

I think that the older the kids get, the more they are truly making their own decisions for themselves about who they are. The younger the kids are, though, and with the long history of Mom and Stepdad dictating that "we must listen to the kids' voices" (about SD14 not wanting to come over for a LONG time), the more skeptical I am, if you can see, about the structure of what is happening here.

Kids are resourceful when it comes to getting needs met, and I think SD12 has found a way to get the attention, affirmation, and "WE'RE on your side" experience that she did not get for so long. That structure is what I want to troubleshoot here.

I'm concerned because Mom/Stepdad have this history of tacitly encouraging "third rail" issues as a way to manipulate the kids away from DH and towards them. The first "third rail" issue I recall was "you don't listen to the kids... I listen to the kids. You need to listen to their voices". Untouchable issue, because built into it was that back then, SD14 would tell Mom "I don't want to go over, I don't want to spend more than one night" and then SD12 would say "I don't want to stay if SD14 isn't here".

After SD14 told us she felt like a boy last year, and kept coming over, and loves being here, we have not heard anything from Mom about "listening to her voice" except during the COVID scare when Mom emailed us about withholding visitation, and then SD14 texted some boilerplate stuff to DH about how it "wouldn't be responsible" for her to come over.

I suspect this is a new structure for a "third rail" issue that Mom hopes will work to keep the kids, and now especially SD12, from coming over and having a good relationship with DH. It's untouchable, because whatever you do for a BPD, it's never enough. DH could bend over backwards to be accepting, warm, and loving, but if SD12 then tells Mom "I don't feel accepted at Dad's" then again it will be "Why are you trying to force SD12 to come over? She doesn't want to, she doesn't feel like you support her". That doesn't work any more with SD14 except the rare occasion (COVID) but it is paying off a lot for Mom via SD12 right now.

...

Do you guys see how with Mom and Stepdad's history, this feels like a setup? Bracketing any questions about sexual orientation, does it make sense how this seems like Mom and Stepdad have latched onto what they think is a "winning" issue (i.e. "undebatable") to keep at least one kid away from us?

I am really struggling because I don't think Mom will agree to counseling for DH and the kids to keep working on their relationships, and even if she "agreed" in words, she would "let the kids know" tacitly that they weren't supposed to go, didn't have to go, it didn't really work, all that stuff.

Any thoughts on the structure of what's going on?

[kells76]

Last year SD14 told us she was a boy. Basically where we are at now is that all of us are very open about having different values and beliefs, but not trying to force anyone else to share them. This is stable-ish. SD14 is doing a good job working on saying what she really thinks and feels without trying to manage others' feelings for them. DH is pretty straightforward about what values he does and doesn't have, and how they impact his decisions.

That is basically how things are rolling here with SD14. She loves spending time here and loves spending time one on one with DH especially. She is working on talking to him about how she felt when she was younger, and she's able to do that okay. I help her with math basically every day (either in person or phone) and she is pretty grateful. There is a lot of positive foundation even with some disagreements on top -- which I think is good for her to experience.

OK, so, if you guys remember, last year right around this time was when she told us she felt like a boy. We had no heads up or any communication from Mom/Stepdad, and when DH emailed them to talk, it was contemptuous, patronizing, and very "Well, WE'RE supportive and SD14 already told EVERYONE else, we can't believe you think there is any problem" etc.

SD14 also recently told DH that SD12 is having a hard time, has said (not sure if to SD14 or to Mom/Stepdad) that she feels like Mom/Stepdad are her "real" parents and DH/I are the "stepparents". Plus that "there's more going on with SD12" but "it's not my job to tell you". SD12 has been super clingy to Mom and (seeing this more) Stepdad, escalating over the last few months.

SD12 asked about the schedule on Saturday night at dinner (SD14 was there too). We said the plan was to drop them off at Mom's on Sunday morning for Mother's Day. SD12 said "I thought it was tonight" and I said that wasn't the plan. She said she wanted to go back to Mom's because she missed Stepdad. I asked if she wanted to call him and she said she didn't have a phone. I offered mine but she was noncommittal, and said she wanted to go back, so I said she and DH could talk about it. He said it was fine if she wanted to go back, so he texted Mom to set that up. DH asked if SD14 wanted to head back too, but she was like "Me time!" and wanted to stay.

SD12 then blurted out "I'm gay" and then "I wasn't planning to say that". I said "I'd love to hear more about what you think and feel" but she didn't have a lot, I think it was something like "that's how I feel". DH asked "what does that mean to you" and she said "I like girls". She jumped up from the table and ran outside to sit. We gave her a few minutes and then I asked if she was all good, and she said she was. I had the kids do the usual after dinner stuff (clear your plates etc). She was kind of hyper/high energy getting her stuff together. I took her back to Mom's, and on the way she was super off topic (let's talk about police sirens, etc). I tried some more validating questions (anything else you want to share with me? etc). I asked how long she thought she'd felt this way, and she said a year, and that she wasn't sure we would accept her. She said "all my friends already know". I asked her how she thought tonight went, and she said "medium". I asked if she felt heard, and she said yes. I said I was glad she was open with us about what she was thinking and feeling.

When I dropped her off, she ran away from me to the door and told Stepdad something. He yelled "That's the best thing in the world!"

...

So there is a lot of "content" here that we can talk about if people want to. I am concerned with the "structure" of what is happening -- most of all, that this is a carbon copy repeat of SD14's experience one year ago, which got SD14 a LOT of attention. SD14 has always been the "golden child" ("successful, talented, mature, wise, deep, insightful") at Mom's house and has been treated as a "mini-adult" almost higher than Mom. SD12 did not get much attention for a long time. Over the past year or so she has been getting a lot of attention from Mom and especially from Stepdad.

SD14's experience was that "everyone else already knew" (including friends, doctors, etc), and that Mom and Stepdad didn't share any info ahead of time with us. In their emails, they presented themselves as "wise, warm, loving, caring, supportive" people, and DH and I were to be held in contempt.

It is uncanny to me that SD12's experience is so similar. She also JUST turned 12. So, that reads to me that when she says "I've felt this way for a year", it's essentially from age 10.

I think that the older the kids get, the more they are truly making their own decisions for themselves about who they are. The younger the kids are, though, and with the long history of Mom and Stepdad dictating that "we must listen to the kids' voices" (about SD14 not wanting to come over for a LONG time), the more skeptical I am, if you can see, about the structure of what is happening here.

Kids are resourceful when it comes to getting needs met, and I think SD12 has found a way to get the attention, affirmation, and "WE'RE on your side" experience that she did not get for so long. That structure is what I want to troubleshoot here.

I'm concerned because Mom/Stepdad have this history of tacitly encouraging "third rail" issues as a way to manipulate the kids away from DH and towards them. The first "third rail" issue I recall was "you don't listen to the kids... I listen to the kids. You need to listen to their voices". Untouchable issue, because built into it was that back then, SD14 would tell Mom "I don't want to go over, I don't want to spend more than one night" and then SD12 would say "I don't want to stay if SD14 isn't here".

After SD14 told us she felt like a boy last year, and kept coming over, and loves being here, we have not heard anything from Mom about "listening to her voice" except during the COVID scare when Mom emailed us about withholding visitation, and then SD14 texted some boilerplate stuff to DH about how it "wouldn't be responsible" for her to come over.

I suspect this is a new structure for a "third rail" issue that Mom hopes will work to keep the kids, and now especially SD12, from coming over and having a good relationship with DH. It's untouchable, because whatever you do for a BPD, it's never enough. DH could bend over backwards to be accepting, warm, and loving, but if SD12 then tells Mom "I don't feel accepted at Dad's" then again it will be "Why are you trying to force SD12 to come over? She doesn't want to, she doesn't feel like you support her". That doesn't work any more with SD14 except the rare occasion (COVID) but it is paying off a lot for Mom via SD12 right now.

...

Do you guys see how with Mom and Stepdad's history, this feels like a setup? Bracketing any questions about sexual orientation, does it make sense how this seems like Mom and Stepdad have latched onto what they think is a "winning" issue (i.e. "undebatable") to keep at least one kid away from us?

I am really struggling because I don't think Mom will agree to counseling for DH and the kids to keep working on their relationships, and even if she "agreed" in words, she would "let the kids know" tacitly that they weren't supposed to go, didn't have to go, it didn't really work, all that stuff.

Any thoughts on the structure of what's going on?

[ForeverDad]

I know comments about sexual orientation can be sensitive issues, even here too.  So I'll avoid suggestions that some may claim are judgmental.

Legally children are not to enter into sexual relationships until they're adults.  Yes, that can often feel like trying to herd cats.  Enough said.  So admitting kids start relationships, need to as they grow, our task is to help them evaluate things in an objective way and not their propensity to think subjectively.

Objective examples and questions help the children ponder "outside the box" scenarios.  Subjective is "I feel like I like him/her", hard to deal with that personal feeling.  Objective is looking outside the personal aspect, "Your schoolmate Suzy likes Karen now and feels she must be gay but what if next year she doesn't feel the same way, is she gay or not?  Why be overly concerned about it at age 12, give it time, allow yourself to be a kid while growing up and those feelings will probably work themselves out."

Other questions could be, "What makes you feel that way?  Is that what others have said?  At your age, lots of girls make close bonds with other girls.  That's entirely normal but it doesn't mean your orientation is that way.  Enjoy your childhood, relax and in time it will probably work itself out.  Meanwhile let's discuss this now and then and see how you feel as time goes by."

[trappeddad]

Kells - I try to alleviate the stress my kid has sometimes by saying - "you are just a kid" and "do not need to make adult decisions yet."     It does not always work but might reduce the stress or just delay the kid's thoughts.      Making life altering decisions on sexual orientation at age 14 is not necessarily a decision a child has to make, and can be phrased that way.     Or call me naive, that's ok.



 

[livednlearned]

Any thoughts on the structure of what's going on?

Refuse to accept your opponent's force ...

I think Skip wrote that about triangulation somewhere on the site.

You guys have a good relationship with the girls, and it seems like when new issues pop up (e.g. first menstruation, gender orientation, sexual orientation) mom and step dad get some juice from it.

But like you point out with SD14, she loves to spend time with you even though there have been times when it's been touch and go. You two keep doing something that seems to be working 

Even when it's working, it's still frustrating to have to acknowledge what the opponent is up to and figure out how to counter the moves 

I read somewhere that the human brain is exceptional at picking up the three legs of: body language, verbal tone, and content. When each is at 100 percent, the brain considers communication *real*. Anything less than 100 percent and the brain senses something is off.

If it's off, it can't be completely trusted.

I get the sense that mom and step dad know your values and take some enjoyment when the girls have adjacent or conflicting values from yours. The bind for you, then, is that if you emphasize your values, you confirm for the girls that you aren't accepting them. Points for mom/step dad.

And if you accept the topic or issues, then you're compromising your values. Either way, when you communicate, it's possible the girls feel that things are adding up to 70 percent when it comes to kells76 and dad. Unfortunately, mom and step dad are adding up to 100 percent, even tho what they're doing (poor boundaries, seeking to be inferior) is unhealthy.

If that's the case, and you don't want to help mom and step dad out with their agenda, I would be tempted to minimize the target. Less is more.

The girls, especially SD12, may be going through a phase where they're trying to figure out who is trustworthy, what can they expect from mom/step dad and what can they expect from kells76/dad. Even more than sexual or gender identity they want to know who can be trusted. More so than most blended families, our high-conflict ones have a ton of them against us. It's just part of our ongoing dynamic that we have to contend with.

Unfortunately for you, mom/step dad are telling the girls what they can expect when it comes to you, so SD12 and SD14 have to vet that. Whereas you and dad aren't saying "mom and step dad think this" so much. And even tho that's probably healthier in the long run for you and the girls, it's frustrating in the short term.

SD23 used to text, "LnL, something's been bugging me and I think we should have a talk about it" and then I would validate her and be kind and compassionate and wait to hear what it was, meanwhile spinning my wheels and getting worked up wondering what it could be. I know her mom has said horrible things about me and didn't want to give any ammunition to that stuff. And then SD23 would get here and be coy and I'd be tied in a thousand small knots thinking about how to manage my resentment while trying to stay calm around her. And inevitably it would feel like a cat and mouse set up, which added to my resentment. It was often so shadowy, like everything added up to 30 percent and I couldn't do anything about it much less describe it. You've read my posts 

My therapist recommended some phrases to block the train from running me over and it's taken me some time to adapt those phrases into ones that work for me (in relation to SD23).

I know that your girls aren't BPD, so this might not directly apply. But the similarity is that your step daughters are conveyors of BPD trait behavior and that stuff is dumping on your door step. Co parent or not, you deserve to decide whether you want to play or not, no matter how the test or game is being set up.

[kells76]

(cross posted with LnL)
Thanks for the feedback so far.

I agree that instead of being "loving and liberating" to have younger and younger kids announce their orientations or preferences, it's limiting and damaging. Kids don't just get to be kids, they get pigeonholed and labeled. What you would do differently if you didn't actually want kids to be free to be children, I don't know.

And I get that it's different at, say, 18. At that point, if the kids come to me and share "I'm bi" or "I'm Hindu" or "I'm libertarian" or "I'm lesbian", then we have an adult discussion about it, and it's their responsibility how that's going to look in their lives, not mine.

I can imagine growing up in church culture (which I did) and saying to my parents, at age 12 or so, "I'm definitely a Christian". I may strongly feel that statement is true -- so it's not an issue of "do I feel it or not" -- but there are structural and contextual contributing factors that can't be ignored. If I did this to please my parents, who I would both tacitly and explicitly know valued that worldview, and because everything in my environment told me it was the right thing to do, how would I know any other option? The whole current of my home life, environment, friends' opinions, the culture I'm immersed in, everything is pointing me to "if you say you're a Christian, you'll fit in, get affirmation, attention, and support; everyone will clap for you when you're baptized, and your parents might have a special celebration with you".

I think it is just as damaging to tell kids that "they can truly decide to be a Christian" when they're children as to tell them "they can truly know their sexual or gender orientation" when they're children. They're kids, and those kinds of decisions are insidious ways for parents to get "props" as "great, supportive, positive" parents -- "you must be a great parent, all your kids are Christians" reads to me like "you must be a great parents, all your kids came out to you".

I hope you guys can see that it is the structure of what's going on that I am worried about. I have thoughts about the content as well and am willing to bracket them for now.

SD12 shuts down when it comes to any kind of deep discussion or "how she feels" talk. I mean, she basically bolted from the dinner table. So, that's another concern -- how to even bring up the concept that she can just be a kid and enjoy her deep friendships, and that doesn't have to mean anything, and that it's OK to see how things go as she grows up. Without her shutting down and escaping. I think it's more comfortable for her to go with the flow, and that means going with the flow of opinions at Mom's house. She doesn't overtly push back against other opinions (SD14 does that a little more) but she won't engage and gets uncomfortable, and "pushes back" by changing the subject or checking out.

DH is super anxious, and gets discouraged about any mention of "we should try to get the kids back in counseling". He thinks that Mom will nominally agree (if at all) and then manipulate the kids to "not want to go" or say "why do you think there's something wrong with me" type stuff -- basically undermining the counseling process.

I do think we need to get the kids in counseling so that, like FD mentioned, they can learn to evaluate things objectively. I am struggling to figure out how, because Mom has sole legal and DH doesn't want to fight. I think livednlearned once "set herself up" as the "problem parent" in order to get help for her son? That's the only way I can think of that would work where Mom wouldn't hint to the kids "Dad just wants you to go to counseling because he thinks there's something wrong with you, but I don't, I love you just the way you are". Thoughts on how to make that work?

Our strategy right now is to keep things exactly the same, and for DH to spend quality time with SD12 and not mention anything or "try to explain" anything to her -- I think she would instantly shut down and either entrench in her (Mom's) thinking or almost dissociate and go way, way off topic. No bringing up "let's talk about how you feel" from us; if she brings anything up we're open of course, but keeping it light. We'll try to give her a few months of us not touching the topic at all -- hopefully it will upend the narrative. I suspect Mom & Stepdad want DH to have a big reaction and preach at SD12. So, we will try to keep it "not a big deal, not even bringing it up, oh you do want to talk? If you really want to" type stuff.

I'm really tired of the setups.

[kells76]

I get the sense that mom and step dad know your values and take some enjoyment when the girls have adjacent or conflicting values from yours.

Yes, especially Stepdad. He enjoys performing his support of the kids, in front of us, when the kids express values congruent with his and perpendicular to ours.The story I've heard from DH is that his dad, who was a Christian pastor (I think), left the family when he was a teen. So, there is a LOT of Stepdad's baggage underlying these performances.

If that's the case, and you don't want to help mom and step dad out with their agenda, I would be tempted to minimize the target. Less is more.

Can we talk through this some more, with examples? Maybe it's what I cross-posted with you -- treat these "announcements" as "no big deal, oh we can talk about it if you really want to, now please put away your laundry"?

[livednlearned]

Can we talk through this some more, with examples? Maybe it's what I cross-posted with you -- treat these "announcements" as "no big deal, oh we can talk about it if you really want to, now please put away your laundry"?

Sometimes the devil is truly in the details so I'm not sure how to suggest things generically. But that won't stop me from trying  

In the example where SD12 is trying to tell you she's gay, there are 2 currents (for lack of a better word).

Current *1: she's gay and you have values about a) how to parent for that and b) what that means in terms of deep-seated values for you

Current *2: something seems fishy with mom and step-dad and this announcement is part of that.

If you feel that #2 is happening, then you might "minimize the target" and ignore (for the time-being) #1. I think you did that from what you describe. Gave SD12 a chance to say more and gave her space. Next would be to let it go. Or pick it up later, or wait for an opening.

Because if SD12 is feeling groomed to agree with "I'm gay" in order to get attention or be interesting to mom and step/dad, then it's not really about you, unless you count being the third tip of the triangle, which just drags you in deeper.

If I feel that pointy tip I tend to focus there first because I don't want to get used. Everything else follows from that.

Which just means that I tend to wait to address the content of what comes up. I don't want to reward the set-up. Ideally, there would be a genuine opening later on that doesn't feel like a set-up. Sometimes though things just pass out of view and I'm onto the next thing.

One caveat for this is that I see myself as a caring adult in the lives of my step kids. That allows me some distance from feeling personally responsible for shaping who they are/become. I don't try to be their mom altho they may think of me as one.

SD23 announced to her dad she was trans when she was 16. Then she announced to me at 20 or so that she was gay. Then a few years ago she began dating a guy and there was no announcement about any of this (to us) whip lash. My oldest step daughter can be more blunt and came out and asked, and SD23 responded that she is "non-binary."

Aside from what she's announcing or not, I feel like she sensed the tremendous power in having a potentially divisive orientation and got something out of it. Whenever I felt the force of her as an opponent, I know it means she's angling for something. Attention, favoritism, superiority, whatevs.

That's when I step a big step back and let it slide by.

It might seem like passivity but for me it's more like Nah, that's not how I do business.

If it's something that has direct bearing on me and my life in my house, or my relationship with my husband, then I have to be more circumspect and figure out how to cut off whatever behavior is undermining me.

I would be curious if SD12 brings it up again. It has a bit of stink to it, imo. That she was trying to get the courage to tell you because step dad felt you should do it, that he knows how *narrow-minded* you are as Christians and gets to be the guide for SD12 as she traverses this new orientation, gets to be her *champion.*

If so where does he go from here? There isn't much left to work with, it seems. I mean, if you respond with love and acceptance, then pfffft. That particular game, set, match seems to be over. Maybe there will be something new ... SD12 getting her period, if she hasn't already. One of them becoming sexually active, or doing drugs, or ________?

And you have SD14 kind of finding her way, which must have some influence on SD12, I would think.

[kells76]

Current *2: something seems fishy with mom and step-dad and this announcement is part of that.

I would be curious if SD12 brings it up again. It has a bit of stink to it, imo. That she was trying to get the courage to tell you because step dad felt you should do it, that he knows how *narrow-minded* you are as Christians and gets to be the guide for SD12 as she traverses this new orientation, gets to be her *champion.*

That's the gut feeling I'm having right now -- that it's not about the kids, and it's all about a uNPD stepdad and a uBPD mom. It's at least starting as option #2.

SD12 "has to" come out to us because that is the role that she has been cast in by Stepdad... to meet his needs to be the hero, champion, the "dad who never left", the "open-minded" one, etc.

For SD14, we are moving more towards the "option #1" route -- ok, you feel the way you feel, and I radically accept that that is true. We can talk about our different values, and what we will and won't do based on our values. We all agree that we don't want to force other family members to participate in our values, if they don't share them.

For SD12, we are SO not there (yet).

I tend to wait to address the content of what comes up. I don't want to reward the set-up. Ideally, there would be a genuine opening later on that doesn't feel like a set-up. Sometimes though things just pass out of view and I'm onto the next thing.

That sounds good. I'll keep thinking about how that might look concretely. I wonder if trying, at this point, to restart counseling might play into the "rewarding the setup" issue?

[kells76]

Escalation

SD12 just texted "I don't want to come over tomorrow"

That was all.

I think DH still goes over to try to pick her up -- to disprove the narrative that "he doesn't accept her"?

How to not get in an argument if there's conflict there?

And how to deal with Mom's inevitable "Well, it's her decision whether to go or not, I support her either way" move? It makes DH the bad guy for trying to spend time with SD12, but then feeds the narrative if he leaves without SD12... help.

[Notwendy]

Maybe it would help to separate the two issues ( for the sake of parenting).

#1- her sexual orientation declaration

#2 - the parenting on their side- triangulation? influencing her?

ie- the triangulation seems to be the larger problem. Whatever the origin of her orientation is. The dynamics of what is going on between the two sets of parents.

Could you be a sounding board for her feelings? I agree, 12 year olds should not be engaging in adult intimate relationships. But I recall having "crushes" on boys in my class, not doing anything about that, but I knew I felt differently about a "cute boy" than a girl at that time. And teen idols. Maybe the next time she says " I like girls" , encourage her to describe that to you. ( not being invasive). "Like" at age 12 is in terms of how the 12 year old is feeling. Think about being 12- I might have said something like " I like Justin Bieber" . Who does she "like"?   You don't have to approve or disapprove of her pre-teen crushes. You know how to be a safe listening board. You can stick to your values- and your values are demonstrated in your unconditional love for her. 

My guess, and thoughts ( I don't really know) is if there is triangulation on their part, it's the " we are the cool liberal parents and they are the uncool conservative ones" which isn't fair on their part. It's also a sign of the times, our current political divisions, sadly. She really shouldn't be put in the position to have to choose between you or them.

But I still think the two of you have the upper hand in terms of being able to provide a loving stable home. This is the long run has an impact. She might not see it all now, but your influence is there. I think you can see this in how you relate to the older one. I don't know if there is any way you can do anything about what goes on in the other home, but you and your H are providing sanity and stability for the children and that has an impact.

[kells76]

Hi Notwendy;

the triangulation seems to be the larger problem. Whatever the origin of her orientation is. The dynamics of what is going on between the two sets of parents.

Yeah, that's my gut feeling, too, coming from years of the same pattern, plus the way SD12 keeps avoiding any kind of discussion, questions, "sounding board" situations, etc -- plus last night's text.

It's almost like she can't allow DH and I to be in a position to be empathetic, loving, and caring towards her... she can't give us an opening to act counter to the narrative.

(I say "she can't" but I know it's more complicated than that -- I don't blame her)

if there is triangulation on their part, it's the "we are the cool liberal parents and they are the uncool conservative ones" which isn't fair on their part.

Yeah, I think that's part of it, too. It's almost intersectional in the way so many of the "socially good" aspects are "umbrella-ed" and coveted by Mom/Stepdad: cool, liberal, open-minded, supportive, tolerant, emotionally healthy, deep, profound, caring about the community, selfless, wise, "spiritual but not religious", etc. Leaving DH and I with all the "socially reprehensible" traits (in this setup): rejecting, square, conservative, cold, unaccepting, bigoted, Christian, closed-minded, patriarchal, weak, shallow, selfish, etc. That was our role (cast by them) in the "SD14 feels like a boy" setup, that was our role in the "you have to stop work for two weeks if you want to see the kids, after all, we're self isolating" setup, and that's our role now.

What is also interesting in all this is that I got a laudatory "happy Mothers Day" text from the kids' mom on Sunday. So, probably some splitting going on there.

...

Anyway, circling back.

What's a big red flag to me is the "I don't even want to engage with you" stance from SD12 right now. DH commented last night (after he calmed down after the text) that he thinks SD12 is really afraid of him rejecting her. I commented that it seems really important for him to go over today and try to pick her up, and to keep a warm and loving tone.

She has done this sort of thing a couple times before -- the text of "I don't want to go if my friends aren't there" type stuff. DH doesn't reply to the texts and goes to the pickup. It worked OK last time. She is so "in the moment" that I'm hoping that's part of it -- "in the moment" last night in Mom's environment she "felt like she wouldn't want to go", but hopefully if she sees DH she will be "in that moment"?

It's just pretty concerning that she is so avoidant and doesn't even want to be listened to by us. We are so not at the "sounding board for her feelings" step yet. I think part of the narrative is "only Mom/Stepdad can even understand how I feel".

Ugh... it all feels like it's escalating.

[livednlearned]

I think DH still goes over to try to pick her up -- to disprove the narrative that "he doesn't accept her"?

Or at the very least, he can share that he wants to come over and connect with her in person, that he misses her, how about he stop by for a hug.

How to not get in an argument if there's conflict there?

There will probably be conflict of some kind, because there is (covert) competition of some kind (coming from mom/step dad).

What do you think might happen if H focuses on seeing SD12 and letting any heavy stuff go for now? Keeping it light as a fairy  

And how to deal with Mom's inevitable "Well, it's her decision whether to go or not, I support her either way" move? It makes DH the bad guy for trying to spend time with SD12, but then feeds the narrative if he leaves without SD12... help.

If she doesn't come this time, maybe he could have her commit to a date when she will come.

It's hard to tell if SD12 was being coached with the text, but it seems meaningful that she landed on "I don't want to come over" vs "I don't want to see you."

There seems to be an opening there that H could walk through.

"I don't want to see you" would have to be backed up with something, and she may not have the words for that. And I get the sense that mom/step dad don't want to ruin the relationship completely because they get something out of this triangle. They just want to *win*.

So maybe H calls their bluff if he simply asks for a hug, and keeps things light.

I don't know if this is the same thing, but I have a dynamic with SD23 where I'm light as a fairy. I don't do it because I'm trying to aggravate her, I do it because that's where I want to be, in that particular mind set, when she's in my home interacting with me. Light as a fairy seems to defang the more covert maneuvers. The circumstances are different in our two situations but in both there is a type of aggression that seems similar. SD12 is caught in the middle in your scenario, but she is also learning how to fight for something, and that might be the takeaway if handled well: no one wins, no one loses, so why bother doing it like this.

[kells76]

It's hard to tell if SD12 was being coached with the text, but it seems meaningful that she landed on "I don't want to come over" vs "I don't want to see you."

That is interesting.

I was thinking about whether it would be an effective tactic for DH to go over and "play it dumb":

DH: "Hey, I'd love to spend time with you today!"

SD12: "I don't want to come over."

DH: "Oh no -- is there something else going on today that you'd rather be doing?" to give her an "out"

SD12: "Yeah, there's this other thing."

DH: "Well, how about I give you a ride to it?"

SD12: "Um, no, it's here at Mom's"

DH: "Oh, my bad! Well, Mom and I will reschedule today. I'm so glad you told me you had something you really wanted to do!"

or something

If she doesn't come this time, maybe he could have her commit to a date when she will come.

Right; where the move DH makes is to "reschedule with Mom" in front of SD12.

So hopefully that puts both Mom and SD12 in a double bind -- oh, this isn't about just today? This isn't about rescheduling?

...

What do you think might happen if H focuses on seeing SD12 and letting any heavy stuff go for now? Keeping it light as a fairy

Yeah, that's the tactic for now -- keeping it all NBD, as they say.

...

And I get the sense that mom/step dad don't want to ruin the relationship completely because they get something out of this triangle. They just want to *win*.

That's interesting. It fits with the MO that Mom/Stepdad keep negatively engaging with us (well, really, with DH) through the kids. In a way, it's like Sluggo's situation -- his kids' mom gave up custody of all of them to him, but then keeps trying to see the kids outside of the agreement that she literally just agreed upon. It's necessary for the dads to be kept in the "play" because otherwise there's no antagonist.

...

Would it be... manipulative (?), or just a good jiu-jitsu move, if -- let's say SD12 insists "I don't want to come over" at Mom's, maybe goes for the hug, maybe not, if DH were to say something like "I was going to go to [favorite takeout place]; how about I bring something back for you"?

I could see it being either like bribing and manipulative, or like a "I'm just thinking about you and what you like, and still want to share it with you" move. Part of me thinks that's moving too far to the "are you SURE you don't want to come with me" side, that's just emotionally manipulative. The other part of me thinks -- hey, it's DH offering to do what they would already be doing, and including her, and giving her something tangible that shows he thinks about her.

...

And then there's the possibility that SD12 doesn't even come to the door. That was her move on Sunday when we dropped off SD14. So, if it's just Mom & Stepdad answering the door... thoughts?

[livednlearned]

where the move DH makes is to "reschedule with Mom" in front of SD12.So hopefully that puts both Mom and SD12 in a double bind -- oh, this isn't about just today? This isn't about rescheduling?

How did you handle this kind of thing when SD14 didn't want to come over? You guys have good instincts for how to diffuse and be fluid. And given the way things are going with SD14, what would you attribute that success to?

Would it be... manipulative (?), or just a good jiu-jitsu move, if -- let's say SD12 insists "I don't want to come over" at Mom's, maybe goes for the hug, maybe not, if DH were to say something like "I was going to go to [favorite takeout place]; how about I bring something back for you"?

It's hard to second-guess this because of what mom/step dad will do with that information. Making an effort to see SD12 seems more straightforward. Then maybe getting the favorite take-out and taking it back to your house. Let SD12 piece together what happened, that she made a choice and it resulted in missing out. It's been a while since I've been mom to a 12 year old so I'm a bit rusty   so maybe this isn't the best option. I have adult kids now and it's definitely better for us to not bend over backwards for them.

And then there's the possibility that SD12 doesn't even come to the door. That was her move on Sunday when we dropped off SD14. So, if it's just Mom & Stepdad answering the door... thoughts?

I guess this part is sort of comingled with the way your families handle visitation. It seems like the girls are consulted about whether they want to go back and forth, so if that's the norm, then the question is whether you have any leg to stand on with this particular no-go? Or maybe I'm not understanding how things are set up with your custody schedule?

[kells76]

How did you handle this kind of thing when SD14 didn't want to come over? You guys have good instincts for how to diffuse and be fluid. And given the way things are going with SD14, what would you attribute that success to?

With last month's "stay home from work if you want to see the kids for the next two weeks" scenario, where SD14 texted DH to declare how it wasn't responsible for her to come over, they actually had a decent phone call after the text. At one point DH asked her "who do you think makes the decisions at Mom's house about whether you come over?" SD14 said "me". Later in the conversation DH said something like "I can tell this is stressing you out, so I am deciding that you aren't coming over today. I'll work with Mom to schedule a makeup time. How about I call you later tonight and read to you over the phone?" That worked out OK. I'm encouraging DH to follow through on the makeup time -- and to schedule it through Mom, not SD14.

Back when it was SD14 (then SD... 10, maybe?) not wanting to come over, DH did say via the L that out of his deep concern for the relationship between him and SD14, he was waiving his parenting time temporarily for 1 month (or something), but in the interim we were working to get counseling set up.

It's hard to second-guess this because of what mom/step dad will do with that information. Making an effort to see SD12 seems more straightforward. Then maybe getting the favorite take-out and taking it back to your house. Let SD12 piece together what happened, that she made a choice and it resulted in missing out.

Yeah, the "oh, I guess I missed out" was effective even with SD14 back when the kids were younger (everyone under age 11 or so). You're right that it would be giving more info (i.e., widening the target) to Mom/Stepdad. So... IDK.

It seems like the girls are consulted about whether they want to go back and forth, so if that's the norm, then the question is whether you have any leg to stand on with this particular no-go?

The kids believe that they are the ones deciding whether to come over or not, yes. SD14 made that explicit. Mom will still "agree that makeup time is a good idea".

There is an explicit parenting plan. DH and I suspect that Mom has not looked at it in years. The kids aren't receptive to the "sorry kids, I have to follow the order" move.

[kells76]

Just got text from DH that pickup was successful

I'm relieved and exhausted

[kells76]

I asked DH how the pickup went.

He said that Mom was "prickly": "Didn't you get SD12's text? I thought it was clear she wasn't coming over"

SD12 was in the shower, so SD14 came & said Hi. He said SD14 seemed surprised and made awkward small talk.

When SD12 came to the door, he told her that she meant a lot to him, their relationship meant a lot to him, and he asked if she wanted to come along. He said she seemed "shy" but said Yes.

...

DH & SD12 got some takeout. We watched a movie when they got back. SD12 ended up cuddling a bit with DH. Then we had dinner and chatted -- nothing big. I gave SD12 a hug and told her I loved her and loved spending time with her, and DH took her back to Mom's.

...

Also, DH said the text actually said "I'm not coming over", not "I don't want to come over". Interesting. Also, he said it was spelled correctly. SD12 is an atrocious speller.

That, coupled with Mom knowing about the text, makes it pretty clear that SD12 wasn't independently texting DH.

...

I told DH I was proud of him, that he did the right thing for SD12, and that I knew how hard it was to face all the crap at pickups.

Ugh, Mom's attitude -- "Isn't it clear that you need to stay in your place and do what I want" -- awful 

So, we'll see how tomorrow goes.