Am I hurting the kids and our relationship by allowing them to visit the BPD mom

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

Bpdmom (exwife) gave up complete custody and all financial obligation.   She said she only wanted the kids 30 days in the summer.  No birthdays, holidays, etc.  Just 30 days.  Judge approved it.  In the custody evaluation, there was clear language of parental alienation of mom against dad and a confirmed diagnosis of mental disorder which was again validated from earlier clinical diagnosis in 2011.  Despite that, judge ruling gave mom custody until she voluntarily gave it up. 

Oldest 2 kids 19 and 20 chose to stay with Mom.  They stopped all communication with me when they turned 18.  They are both in college.  They use mom as home base. 

The 16 and 13 were very alienated against me but have been much better since living with me full time now almost 9 months. 

The 3 youngest (11, 9, 6) have always been loving towards me. 

Since the 'abandoning' the kids August 2019, the kids have had 4 visits with mom at the kids request.  I have granted each of these requests without any issue.  However, mom says she will not pick or drop them off at my house.  No reason given, but just will not.  She said she will exchange them 2 blocks down the street at the local school.  I did it the first time and the exchange was awful as she just would not keep quiet and saying demeaning stuff to me.  Afterwards, I told my 16 yr old that was the last time I would meet mom for exchange and she can come to the house and do the pick up and drop off.  That way I can stay in house and not have to put myself in that environment where kids see and witness her cutting down their dad- as my oldest saw when growing up all the time.   

This weekend on mothers day they spent time with her.  I got call from daughter at 8:30pm saying I needed to pick them up in 30 min at school.  I said that my agreement with mom was that she was to drop off at my house.  16 yr daughter upset saying I was being unreasonable and just wanting things my way all the time.   I received multiple text messages saying more of the same from daughter in that 30 min time frame.  I called mom and text her but she did not respond. 

Mom and mom's boyfriend dropped them off at school and kids walked home and night in a light 50 degree drizzle.  2 of the kids are special needs with one in a walker and the other needed to be carried as he did not have his stroller with him.   I was made out to be the bad guy and the unreasonable one as my daughter said.    I told daughter that there are rules and mom is not following those rules. 

I know that it is not a big deal to pick up the kids.  But as you may have experienced, it will be one more thing, one more thing, and one more thing plus the degrading things she will say.   There is no reason for her not to drive to house.  She was with her boyfriend also.    She is requesting a change in the custody schedule so her responsibility to make the accommodations.  It just seems that the kids get home so filled with rancor against me.  My 6 yr old said that Mom was 'really mad at you on Saturday night because I did not give her the right pajamas for him'.  Also they have their other oldest siblings are with mom and are part of the negative input (directly or indirectly) against me. 

My questions is, am I hurting my relationship with them by saying yes to the 'extra visits' to mom because of the drama surrounding the exchanges and/or what she says about me when they are with her. 
Or if I do say no...  will I be seen as the dad trying to keep them from their mom (even though they don't realized she abandoned them giving up any and all responsibility for them)?

thoughts?

[Sluggo]

Bpdmom (exwife) gave up complete custody and all financial obligation.   She said she only wanted the kids 30 days in the summer.  No birthdays, holidays, etc.  Just 30 days.  Judge approved it.  In the custody evaluation, there was clear language of parental alienation of mom against dad and a confirmed diagnosis of mental disorder which was again validated from earlier clinical diagnosis in 2011.  Despite that, judge ruling gave mom custody until she voluntarily gave it up. 

Oldest 2 kids 19 and 20 chose to stay with Mom.  They stopped all communication with me when they turned 18.  They are both in college.  They use mom as home base. 

The 16 and 13 were very alienated against me but have been much better since living with me full time now almost 9 months. 

The 3 youngest (11, 9, 6) have always been loving towards me. 

Since the 'abandoning' the kids August 2019, the kids have had 4 visits with mom at the kids request.  I have granted each of these requests without any issue.  However, mom says she will not pick or drop them off at my house.  No reason given, but just will not.  She said she will exchange them 2 blocks down the street at the local school.  I did it the first time and the exchange was awful as she just would not keep quiet and saying demeaning stuff to me.  Afterwards, I told my 16 yr old that was the last time I would meet mom for exchange and she can come to the house and do the pick up and drop off.  That way I can stay in house and not have to put myself in that environment where kids see and witness her cutting down their dad- as my oldest saw when growing up all the time.   

This weekend on mothers day they spent time with her.  I got call from daughter at 8:30pm saying I needed to pick them up in 30 min at school.  I said that my agreement with mom was that she was to drop off at my house.  16 yr daughter upset saying I was being unreasonable and just wanting things my way all the time.   I received multiple text messages saying more of the same from daughter in that 30 min time frame.  I called mom and text her but she did not respond. 

Mom and mom's boyfriend dropped them off at school and kids walked home and night in a light 50 degree drizzle.  2 of the kids are special needs with one in a walker and the other needed to be carried as he did not have his stroller with him.   I was made out to be the bad guy and the unreasonable one as my daughter said.    I told daughter that there are rules and mom is not following those rules. 

I know that it is not a big deal to pick up the kids.  But as you may have experienced, it will be one more thing, one more thing, and one more thing plus the degrading things she will say.   There is no reason for her not to drive to house.  She was with her boyfriend also.    She is requesting a change in the custody schedule so her responsibility to make the accommodations.  It just seems that the kids get home so filled with rancor against me.  My 6 yr old said that Mom was 'really mad at you on Saturday night because I did not give her the right pajamas for him'.  Also they have their other oldest siblings are with mom and are part of the negative input (directly or indirectly) against me. 

My questions is, am I hurting my relationship with them by saying yes to the 'extra visits' to mom because of the drama surrounding the exchanges and/or what she says about me when they are with her. 
Or if I do say no...  will I be seen as the dad trying to keep them from their mom (even though they don't realized she abandoned them giving up any and all responsibility for them)?

thoughts?

[ForeverDad]

There was a new boundary set in the new order.  Ex gave up custody and only gets 30 days during the summer.  (Hopefully that not one long 30 day visit.  Though nice to get the one visit done and over with, that would be a long time without your moderating influence.)

You are fully entitled to abide by that boundary.  Sure, she could go back to court, probably on a Change of Circumstances process, but typically court does not like to entertain substantive changes within a year or two of an order.  It wants to give an order time to work, or more likely, it doesn't want to see disputing parents back in court too soon.

Once you can view your order as a Boundary to aid you in parenting, you may feel less pressured to be overly nice or overly fair.  I believe that's why you've allowed or enabled extra visits.  The problem with that is now she perceives your court order, your boundary, as weakened and emboldens her — and to an extent the kids too — to push the boundary even more.

Yes, you may face her complaint as "mean" or "spiteful" but all you'd be doing is following the court's order.  Clearly court saw the order as appropriate or else it wouldn't have allowed it.  If she went to court claiming you're blocking her and seeking more time, I would find it hard for the court to blame you for following the order it made.

There is a side issue here.  As the children age into teen years and are able to drive, court may give them room to "vote" with their feet.  Or it may have them stick to the order until they age out at 18.  You or your lawyer would have a better grasp which way the wind blows on that matter.

Overall, I fear you're trying to look "fair" and that can sabotage yourself.  I found a saying here years ago, The one behaving poorly often doesn't get much as consequences and the one behaving well often doesn't get much as credit.  Essentially, court generally doesn't care how "fair" or "nice" you are or not, just whether you follow the order and do reasonable parenting.

As I look back over my post, I haven't focused much on how the kids will react, probably your core concern.  Predictability is good for the kids.  (Typically kids dread being in the middle between squabbling parents and forced to take sides or make decisions.)  Is there a reason you haven't explained the order's terms to the kids?

[zachira]

As the daughter of a mother with BPD, I am very opinionated about your concerns about allowing your children to visit their mother with BPD so my response may be quite strong and not helpful. From what you have shared, it sounds like your children's mother is determined to make your children choose one parent over the other, and the older ones have picked their mother. Your younger children are at ages in which they can be easily brainwashed by their mother to pick her over you. What she is doing now is child abuse, and the children deserve full protection, which includes never being alone with her. The only kind of visitation I would allow would be supervised visits, or no visits at all. Even my own father was unable to see how abusive my mother was even though my father lived with us, because my mother with BPD was always at her worst when alone with her children.

[worriedStepmom]

Your ex didn't want your kids.

There are consequences to that.  One of those consequences is that the children will miss her and feel abandoned by her.  She didn't care about that consequence.

Given that she's still harassing you and attempting to alienate the children, I would hold tight to the order.  You can tell the kids that you are following what the judge said to do and you don't have a choice.

You might also ask your lawyer if he thinks that ex's behavior around the children - including forcing your special needs kids to walk 2 miles in the rain - is enough to make her summer be supervised.

[Sluggo]

Forever Dad,

That makes sense on using the court order as an aid to which to follow.  Hence blaming the court order for their inability to see mom...  takes me out of the equation.   Yes order reads '1 month in summer' which I have interpreted as 30 consecutive days. 

Vote with their feet, yes I am fearful the 16 and 13 may do this as they have seen their older siblings do it.  Not sure what they will do.  I do know the 16yr old told CPS whichnwas written in CPS report that she does not feel like she has to walk on egg shells at my house of feel paranoid.  But that being said, there still an aloofness of connection since the divorce although much better now.   But maybe that is because she is 16.

 Zachira  I really appreciate the directness and bluntness which you have shared.  Thank you.  Coming from a person who has BPD mother is an opinion I take seriously-  Thank you.  I believe you have boiled it down to the essence...  Mom wants all kids to choose...  and will do what she can to force that decision.

If you go back to the first posts I wrote 7yrs ago, you can see the craziness back then when I lived with her. 

  I have gone back to your posts as I have tried to pull out how you have dealt with this from your perspective.  At what point in your life did you realize she was pulling you away from a relationship with your dad?  What age were you when you got what was happening?  How is your relationship with your Dad now? 

worriedStepmom, 

Thank you!  I wrestle with kids feeling they were being abandoned so trying to help alleviate their feeling by allowing visits.  Fearful also they will tell me I kept them from seeing their mom.  After all they were told by her that she could not afford to keep them because i took her to court so many times (contempts for not following orders).  But I actually paid her lawyer and my lawyer bills. 

Yes, I like the idea of just holding on to the court ruling and just going with that.  Have to figure out what would be the best way to go about that with kids - that is just tell them and that's that.  Or to finesse the answer some. 

Thank you all!

[Turkish]

This weekend on mothers day they spent time with her.  I got call from daughter at 8:30pm saying I needed to pick them up in 30 min at school.  I said that my agreement with mom was that she was to drop off at my house.  16 yr daughter upset saying I was being unreasonable and just wanting things my way all the time.   I received multiple text messages saying more of the same from daughter in that 30 min time frame.  I called mom and text her but she did not respond.

As cowardly and petty both mom and her boyfriend are being, I wouldn't tell any of the kids this. You're triangulating her into the conflict with her mom.  Did you JADE with D16?

I'd also stick to the order.

[zachira]

In response to your questions:
My parents were not divorced. I did however spend 100s of hours listening to my parents bad mouth people that were nice to me, as if these people were a threat to my relationship with my parents.
I have read "Divorce Poison" and recommend it as a great source on how to deal with a parent that is trying to alienate the children from the other parent.
I did not realize what was happening with my mother with BPD until my mother abused my brother who was dying of cancer, her favorite child and the one she expected to take care of her in her old age, because she was apparently angry at him for abandoning her by dying.
My father has been dead for many years. My mother died last summer.
I am glad you are taking the parent alienation seriously and doing what you can to look out for the wellbeing of your children.

[kells76]

I believe you have boiled it down to the essence...  Mom wants all kids to choose...  and will do what she can to force that decision.

This is fascinating given that she essentially gave you custody of the kids.

It's like some kind of "dramatic reenactment" that she has set up -- where she needs to be in the role of "what can I do, it's not my choice" and she needs to force an obvious scenario of the kids choosing her over all obstacles. There were no obstacles to the kids "choosing" her when she had custody. I bet she doubted their love for her, or something. So, she engineered this artificial "test" of their love or preference for her... by rejecting them.

It's not the "having the kids with her" that she wanted... it's the "them choosing her over you" that she wanted, to manage some feeling that she has inside that she can't manage on her own.

[livednlearned]

am I hurting my relationship with them by saying yes to the 'extra visits' to mom because of the drama surrounding the exchanges and/or what she says about me when they are with her. 
Or if I do say no...  will I be seen as the dad trying to keep them from their mom (even though they don't realized she abandoned them giving up any and all responsibility for them)[/b]?

It sounds like there is a lot of variability in how the kids interact with you.

I don't know, my son seemed to find it comforting when I grew a backbone. It sometimes put him in a bind so maybe he didn't like it all the time but what I can say is that he himself has grown more assertive, and seems to respect me.

I wonder if you could phrase it to the oldest as, "Look, I'm done being yelled at. By anyone. So let's figure out a way to get what you need in a way that works for me. The only limit is that I will not be yelled at. Let's brainstorm this together."

[PeteWitsend]

As cowardly and petty both mom and her boyfriend are being, I wouldn't tell any of the kids this. You're triangulating her into the conflict with her mom.  Did you JADE with D16?

I'd also stick to the order.

Agree with this. 

Sluggo, I'd be careful not to allow the kids to suffer due to their mom's unhinged behavior.  Regardless of who is ultimately right or wrong, your kids will bear some resentment toward you over this, and be more susceptible to taking sides. 

I might've called the XW while my kids were in the car, and left a polite but firm voicemail along the lines of "Hey, I just picked the kids up at the school.  We had agreed that you would drop them off at my house though.  Please let me know how we can keep this from happening again."  (I assume you have the agreement on where to pick up kids in writing somewhere you can point them too). 

Your XW will definitely see this as a provocation, and get upset.  though I think sometimes you need to say something, and let them spin all they want. 

More importantly, you're letting your kids hear the whole story, and make up their own minds about who to believe.  This isn't bashing the mom or forcing them to take sides, just clearing the air.

Your situation sounds haywire enough that it might make sense to get your kids a T, if they don't have one already.  I can't remember if you do.  Having another adult involved in the situation, who can testify objectively of what's been going on, will be helpful in the event your XW and her BF try to fight for custody again, or make allegations in court. Then instead of two against one, it's two against two, one of whom is uninterested in the outcome, and thus carries more credibility with the court.