While Still Undecided and Trying, Also Speaking to Div Attorney — Help, Please

[UBPDHelp]

Good morning. I am going to try again.  Please do not move this post to the divorce board as I have posted there as well, but would really also like input from all those who know my history and have been helping me here the last few months as well. Thank you for your help and understanding.
——

I’m still trying to decide what to do, but most days don’t think there’s a path forward anymore.

I’ve found a couple of high-conflict divorce attorneys, but am having a hard time with a virtual appointment. The courts are shut here (only criminal and DV cases), and the reopening plans will start with certain categories AND that were “on the books” prior to pandemic, so the lawyers have both put a temporary hold on taking on new clients. The states plan has 4 level reopening and targeted for end of month to mid-June, as of right now, but they’ve bumped a few times already so who knows. I think lawyers are level 2 or 3.

So, I’m just prepping what to ask, BUT can use thoughts on how to approach uBPD possibility and when to do so. Part of me thinks wait — sounds nutty, let them know the global issues, specific concerns, etc.  part of me feels that the u BPD/NPD is so central to what’s wrong, I need to start there.

Can you share thoughts?

I’m going to post this same concern on the divorce board for their thoughts, but haven’t settled where I belong yet.

[Notwendy]

I think it's fine to explore your options. I also think it's important to know the laws in your state concerning divorce when a spouse is threatening it, or if you are considering it.  I think we are all pretty clear that- exploring your options doesn't mean a "run message" or telling you to do it. This is something everyone needs to decide according to their own personal situation. It's also a decision that has pros and cons. So, IMHO, learning about the process, the law, how assets are divided- is part of considering what to do.

I also don't think that divorce is the solution to the conflicts in the relationship. What do I mean by that? Divorce dissolves the marriage. Sometimes that is the best solution to some issues. But it doesn't end the relationship all together if two people are parents.

A high conflict marriage is likely to undergo a high conflict divorce- and then- high conflict co-parenting. What's the solution to this? Work on yourself, your relationship skills. No matter what you decide, you will be dealing with a disordered and high conflict person. You can't change him. You can work on yourself.

So why divorce at all if there's going to be conflict to deal with? Sometimes there are unresolvable issues- abuse, adultery, financial irresponsibility are some issues people divorce over. Divorce can solve living with a person with serious issues, but you would still need to be dealing with him as your children's parent.

A wise MC explained this to me. Work on yourself, to gain better relationship skills. This might improve the marriage or it might not. If it doesn't- then with these skills, you will be able to have a less conflicted divorce, and co-parent better. It seemed like a better situation either way.

So, explore and educate yourself about divorce, but there still is personal work to do. One thing I read ( that seems true) is if a person leaves a relationship and doesn't work on their own part in it, they are likely to repeat the same dysfunctional relationship pattern with someone else. It seems true with people who have multiple relationships with dysfunctional people. Now, that's a motivation. You can leave your husband but you take your relationship skills with you, so keep up the work no matter what.

[UBPDHelp]

I agree notwendy.

I clearly have issues I didn’t realize. Why have I allowed myself to be treated this way?

I understand the continued relationship, but as you said, one area I’m really getting tired of is the financial irresponsibility. He isn’t making money, won’t discuss plan and is still spending money on unnecessary things and trying to plan a vacation. I’m tired of this behavior.

So, while the dysregulations are entirely intolerable, the financial insecurity may be the breaking point. I can handle poorer. I can’t handle choosing to put us in peril. It’s not fair and causes me stress.

But, yes, I am excited about some of the progress I’ve made and seeing more clearly what work still needs to be done. Haven’t figured out why I allowed it...guessing easily manipulated and long term gaslighting nosedived my self esteem. And removing all support (my fault for allowing). Perfect cocktail of disorder. Working on me.

Any recommendations are welcome...thank you!

[babyducks]

hello UBPDHelp

as always, NotWendy wrote an excellent post covering a lot of good points.   

I am going to go in a different direction, just slightly.

So, I’m just prepping what to ask, BUT can use thoughts on how to approach uBPD possibility and when to do so. Part of me thinks wait — sounds nutty, let them know the global issues, specific concerns, etc.  part of me feels that the u BPD/NPD is so central to what’s wrong, I need to start there.

Can you share thoughts?

here is my experience.  I found that "high conflict couple" was almost a code phrase that competent professionals responded too.     the phrase I used when I needed to  was "we are a high conflict couple and I mean that in the clinical sense of the term".      it immediately moved the conversation into different territory.

I also found that the follow up question or the follow up direction was generally an effort to understand how that determination was reached and the level of support for me and for the relationship.

for me, I got to say 'there is an extensive mental health team on board ... two psychologists, a psychiatrist and a mental health nurse and with respect to everyone's privacy I am not comfortable saying more'.

there is a big difference between "I know this because I have lots of professionals helping me identify"... and "I know this because I read a book and visit a website where people post anonymously".

once,   in a conversation with a professional I did my health team line and got back "yes but I have talked with your Ex and she said your health team has members who are no good".     Whooa  Baby.      Not a rabbit hole I wanted to go down.

so the point of that long winded story is ... I only introduced facts that I could support.    if it was something I was uncertain of... I framed it that way.     "what appears to be the case right now is..."     I didn't use diagnostic terms because I don't have the credentials to diagnosis.    if it was my opinion I said it that way.    "it feels to me like there might be..."     I also tried to speak in general terms to protect our privacy... I probably went to far in this direction but it felt very wrong to me to "tell stories".    I never said my Ex got so hysterical one night that she cried for 7 solid hours.    I did say my Ex has harmfully intense emotional reactions.

as much as you are trying to get a feel for the lawyer they are trying to get a feel for you.    where are you in this process...how credibly do you present information... how solid are you in your convictions.   

my two cents
'ducks

[UBPDHelp]

Thanks BabyDucks,

This is helpful. I agree that reading a book and talking to others in BPD/possible BPD relationships is not likely legally sound.

I don’t want to hurt him personally or professionally. Yes, there are times I would, but all in all I realize he is mentally ill.

But, he doesn’t have a team of mental health professionals so I will never have that help.

I can try to get a T, but too many obstacles right now. But, other than helping me emotionally, they can’t diagnose him through me, so legally speaking is there a benefit?  And, H would likely twist it that I “needed” therapy.

I do have copies of the rage texts he’s sent me the last year. I have been documenting episodes, although they are just my side so not sure they have value. The rage texts are very clearly his and I believe show immense dysregulation.

I would share one with you privately if you’d like...

I’m getting great feedback and I think knowing what info to have coupled with how/what to share will help me put it all together.

I don’t want to sound crazy throwing accusations that are my opinion, but also don’t want to not make an attorney aware of what we’re dealing with. Do you think the attorney would look at the messages (only real proof of his dysregulations)?

I do take pictures of the broken dishes, etc, but not sure it’s proof he did it. And I don’t want my kids taking sides or having to say dad did this or that. Not good for them emotionally and H would never forgive them.

[babyducks]

But, he doesn’t have a team of mental health professionals so I will never have that help.

I can try to get a T, but too many obstacles right now. But, other than helping me emotionally, they can’t diagnose him through me, so legally speaking is there a benefit?  And, H would likely twist it that I “needed” therapy.

sorry I wasn't clear UBH,... that team... one psychologist was mine... the other psychologist was my Ex's (two different people)  the psychiatrist prescribed medication and the other professional was like a couples therapist.   that was an effort to support the relationship.    that was not all my Ex's team... it was our team.

and let's take a biiiiiiiiiig step back to getting you a T...hmmmm.    do you think you can reframe this?    what kind of obstacles right now?    did you attempt to locate a T?     what did you bump up against?    and here comes the reminder... this is not about him... and getting him a diagnosis... this is about supporting you.   that's important     the more allies you have in your corner the better for you.    I think it was Skip... who said that leaving an abusive relationship is more successful the more separate solid allies exist.    Legal support... family support... emotional support...   spiritual support.    the more people with the more talents in your corner the better for you.

I don’t want to sound crazy throwing accusations that are my opinion, but also don’t want to not make an attorney aware of what we’re dealing with. Do you think the attorney would look at the messages (only real proof of his dysregulations)?

hmmm.     I'm not sure.     my first though is that the lawyer is not a marriage counselor, and that he/she isn't going to be interested in proof of dysregulations.     let's see what others say.   

do you feel like it would be enough to say to the lawyer something like... 'there appears to be  mental health issues involved in any divorce and I am concerned for the potential of________________'    fill in the blank with your concern of course.

[UBPDHelp]

sorry I wasn't clear UBH,... that team... one psychologist was mine... the other psychologist was my Ex's (two different people)  the psychiatrist prescribed medication and the other professional was like a couples therapist.   that was an effort to support the relationship.    that was not all my Ex's team... it was our team.

and let's take a biiiiiiiiiig step back to getting you a T...hmmmm.    do you think you can reframe this?    what kind of obstacles right now?    did you attempt to locate a T?     what did you bump up against?    and here comes the reminder... this is not about him... and getting him a diagnosis... this is about supporting you.   that's important     the more allies you have in your corner the better for you.    I think it was Skip... who said that leaving an abusive relationship is more successful the more separate solid allies exist.    Legal support... family support... emotional support...   spiritual support.    the more people with the more talents in your corner the better for you.

Okay.  Obstacles. Currently no private way to get a T. H doesn’t believe in therapy...finally figured out why. I know it’s my choice and for me, but that is wholly underestimating the amount of dysregulation I will be inviting if I do so and not looking to add to it right now.

Don’t know how to keep billing/insurance private. Will the T understand to send electronic bill or to a PO Box?  What if there’s a slip up? And then not telling him will be a lie, I’m okay with this one, but he would not.

And, he is a seasoned manipulator so I believe that he would use this as a flaw against me in divorce.

I may be off base, but these are my concerns.

I do have a new “friend” who is a T. Not sure what kind and she has a FT day job at a university. Thought about talking to her and paying her cash but that feels weird. But mostly wanting/needing to keep that I am talking to someone to myself at least for now.

H will feel threatened for sure.

hmmm.     I'm not sure.     my first though is that the lawyer is not a marriage counselor, and that he/she isn't going to be interested in proof of dysregulations.     let's see what others say.    

do you feel like it would be enough to say to the lawyer something like... 'there appears to be  mental health issues involved in any divorce and I am concerned for the potential of________________'    fill in the blank with your concern of course.

Agree, but I feel very distinctly that the level of dysregulation evidenced in those messages illustrates the dissolution of the marriage. Without it, it is he said/she said. Not saying it would be legal help, but whether it would be helpful to their understanding of the situation.

May not be, but I don’t know how else and I feel the behavior should be understood/known. Maybe I’m just wrong.

Potential for — lies, manipulations, false accusations, absolution of his responsibility for financial, emotional demise, blame on me for every issue.

I have my part. But he is masterful at changing dialogue and gaslighting. I think he believes some of it now, not just trying to control. When five of us remember it one way and only he “remembers” it another, you tell me. But if four of the five are my kids, I can’t drag them in. Just my only assurance that I’m not the one with the problem.

Geesh I hope that makes sense.

[Cat Familiar]

I went through a high conflict divorce with a husband who was physically abusive. I disclosed the abuse in my initial conversations with lawyers and received some surprising replies.

A female lawyer told me, “Well, you married him.”

NEXT!

Then the lawyer I ended up going with said, “More than once is not OK.”

I thought ONCE wasn’t OK.

He did a good job for me. Toward the end of the process as he observed more about my ex, through various filings his attorney did and obvious deceptions, he said, “I’m starting to believe this guy is as bad as you’ve said.”

That told me that divorce attorneys are often jaded and they hear exaggerated versions of stories from their clients, who are seeking to put the onus on their partners and make themselves look good.

What babyducks says about providing supportive evidence and not mere speculation is very good advice.

I think it’s important to disclose that your husband has a history of breaking things when angry. How an attorney responds to that information will give you a perspective about whether or not they might be a good fit for you.

[formflier]

Really good discussion here with two different but interrelated issues

The need for privacy and good legal counsel.

The need for privacy and the support of a T.

There is a fear that a T will be "used against you" by your hubby in a legal sense. (do I have this right).

Have you ever gone to a T before and actually experienced your husbands reaction to seeing a T? (not something I want to assume)

Perhaps enough questions, here are my responses to other raised issues.

1.  Don't try to convince your L that your husband is bad or is BPD.  (stick around for the nuance)

2.  Do ask your L how bad behavior and/or mental health issues may relate to a potential divorce.

3.  The follow up is:  What kind of documentation of bad behavior is helpful to you (the L) in getting a successful outcome in divorce.  (have a couple examples ready)

4.  Ask about what happens if you decide to divorce and there is no precipitating event (like an arrest).  Listen to the L talk through how issues are often handled.

5.  Same question but ask how a precipitating event might change things.  (if you can't think of an example use this.  "Let's say my husband throws hot coffee on me and I call police and he is arrested".  If I call you and say I want a divorce and don't want to live with this guy any more...how does that play out."

As a practical matter you need a document "in the cloud" (that is secure) where you can start a list of "what about" questions.

Best,

FF

[formflier]

So...thankfully I've never filed for divorce.  This story could be a bit long but would provide insight into how others have thought through legal issues.

To my knowledge my wife never has either.  One time her "divorce attorney" called me.  (I don't think it was a real attorney)

Anyway in two different states I have gained a deep understanding of how the process could/would work and I also gained understand of what would happen if children were grabbed and taken to another state.

As a practical matter I would likely have filed for divorce if my wife insisted on putting our children under the care of certain of her relatives...which she threatened to do.

And once actually did.

So I drove over and picked our child up and drove back to state I was in.  My wife flipped out, brought a bunch of older children with her to "witness" this and I announced in front of everyone that I was not ok with (fill in blank of relative) caring for any of our children without either Mommy or Daddy present.

Given that my wife and I have in our last will and testament that under no circumstances would (fill in blank) be given custody of our children should we die that I felt the same way in life.

My wife backed down and has never tried this again.  But let's say that my wife took kids there and dropped them off and then this relative filed a no trespassing order to keep me off their property...I would have filed for divorce and emergency custody to regain control over our children.

Long story but BPD substance abuse, domestic assault with associated arrests and convictions (I could go on) are the types of things that happen at this relatives house.

If there is any doubt...this relative is BPD and far worse than my wife.

I luckily have a long term relationship with an attorney who handles all my legal matters that was ready to proceed and fully briefed up.  

Best,

FF

[babyducks]

UBPDHelp,

Let me suggest a tool that might help in your problem solving efforts.   It's part of the Yale Communications Model, and it was a big help to me.

When _______event happens/situation occurs______
I think _____________
I feel _______________
so I will need to _____________.

Let me fill in the blanks.   

When the cat sits in the freshly cleaned and folded laundry basket
I think  my clothes are full of cat hairs again
and I feel frustrated and angry
so I will need to put a piece of aluminum foil on top of the basket when I fold the laundry next.

H will feel threatened for sure.

When/If  H learns I have contacted a T, H will feel threatened for sure.
I think this means that ______________ might happen or that ___________ could.
I feel ______________ and ___________
so I will need to do _________________ for now.

the more detail you can fill in the easier your decision making will be.    lots of details.

same example for the lawyer.

When I speak/contact the lawyer
I think:

• the most important thing is _____________
• the thing I need the most is ______________

• my first question should be __________
• I should be able to get _____________ from the meeting

I feel  _________________
So I need to do _______________ about the lawyer meeting.

'ducks

[formflier]

FF is standing up and clapping.  I love that model and the fill in the blank approach!

Best,

FF

[UBPDHelp]

I went through a high conflict divorce with a husband who was physically abusive. I disclosed the abuse in my initial conversations with lawyers and received some surprising replies.

A female lawyer told me, “Well, you married him.”

NEXT!

Then the lawyer I ended up going with said, “More than once is not OK.”

I thought ONCE wasn’t OK.

He did a good job for me. Toward the end of the process as he observed more about my ex, through various filings his attorney did and obvious deceptions, he said, “I’m starting to believe this guy is as bad as you’ve said.”

This is my fear. My H has charmed me so many times that I fear someone who never sees those dark sides really won’t understand what’s happening — I sure didn’t until things became almost daily cycles. And, since he will never seek help (or really admit he has issues) it is all he said/she said. H can function in the world and at face value appears “normal” and even charming  and engaging.

I don’t even want much. I need some financial help — I will get a job because I will do virtually anything I need to do — and I’ll share holidays, etc.  He may fight for joint custody but don’t think that’s best for kids and I don’t know if he could handle day to day. His disdain is mostly focused on me. Idk if that’s real, I mean he may really despise me.  I may become a permanent target, but not dealing with day to day mostly won’t matter. If he turns on the kids because I’m not available for his projections, we would have to deal with that. I know it will never be that simple.

I see him on Facebook all day, chatting (I don’t have it so don’t really know how it works) and it did bother me because I believe he is mostly interested in old girls from high school. So creepy and weird. He has mentioned his old gf a few times in the last couple of months. When I started not caring and almost hoping he would find someone else, it was sad. The thing is, of course this isn’t what I wanted, none of it, but I can’t have what I want. It doesn’t exist here. And, I’ve been willing to bend a lot. I just don’t think I can bend any more without actually being broken.

That said, he says we’ll co-parent, when we separate, sell the house, but then he’ll talk about our next vacation and the holidays. I have whiplash and so, while I understand these words one way, I am confused by what they mean to him.

The threats are real to me.  Are they to him or are they just pathetic attempts to get me to fall into line?  Idk. But I’m tired. I can’t save him. And I’m tired of being taken down by him.

That told me that divorce attorneys are often jaded and they hear exaggerated versions of stories from their clients, who are seeking to put the onus on their partners and make themselves look good.

What babyducks says about providing supportive evidence and not mere speculation is very good advice.

I think it’s important to disclose that your husband has a history of breaking things when angry. How an attorney responds to that information will give you a perspective about whether or not they might be a good fit for you.

Thanks Cat. Even reading that makes me feel pathetic. The breaking things is outward evidence. And, prior to recent incidents, was a handful of times long ago.  It is NOT an excuse, I just don’t want to convey that this ever became normal in our lives. It didn’t. And I don’t want to represent him inaccurately either. But, like you said, ONCE is too much.

But, the internal damage can’t be seen. Strangely, I know it will be hard and I will be sad, I feel like the last year of this has just made dreaming of peace so much more appealing than an intact family. I just think I have to get over my fear.

I don’t feel obligation to him or myself anymore. I do feel immense obligation to my kiddos and all of my guilt is to what I’ve allowed to happen and how it will impact them. So much guilt. And a lot of fear.

I’m trying to get stronger.

[UBPDHelp]

Really good discussion here with two different but interrelated issues

The need for privacy and good legal counsel.

The need for privacy and the support of a T.

There is a fear that a T will be "used against you" by your hubby in a legal sense. (do I have this right).

Yes.

Have you ever gone to a T before and actually experienced your husbands reaction to seeing a T? (not something I want to assume)

No, I have never gone. I’ve heard what he’s said about others, including his sister who turned on his mom after. They freaked out and said the T brainwashed her. H didn’t like his mom much when we met (should have been biggest clue, but I was clueless). He includes her on everything though. Holidays, vacations, celebrations. And he’s mostly good to her and takes care of her stuff. He does get mad at her and she has told him he should work on it. I’ve seen her as the counter painted black person, then I get to be white, but that dynamic does not last long.

He also works with Ts, has clients who see Ts and he sees it very poorly. I think he knows they would see through him.

So, for me, I know there would be a bad reaction and he would tell me I had no reason to go and then demand to know why. Not saying I would tell him, just know based upon these other experiences how he will react. And probably see it as a threat.

Perhaps enough questions, here are my responses to other raised issues.

1.  Don't try to convince your L that your husband is bad or is BPD.  (stick around for the nuance)

2.  Do ask your L how bad behavior and/or mental health issues may relate to a potential divorce.

3.  The follow up is:  What kind of documentation of bad behavior is helpful to you (the L) in getting a successful outcome in divorce.  (have a couple examples ready)

4.  Ask about what happens if you decide to divorce and there is no precipitating event (like an arrest).  Listen to the L talk through how issues are often handled.

5.  Same question but ask how a precipitating event might change things.  (if you can't think of an example use this.  "Let's say my husband throws hot coffee on me and I call police and he is arrested".  If I call you and say I want a divorce and don't want to live with this guy any more...how does that play out."

As a practical matter you need a document "in the cloud" (that is secure) where you can start a list of "what about" questions.

Thanks FF. These are helpful. I’ve thought about calling the police AND would if I felt imminent danger, but at this level, with no where to go, just serves to escalate. And, to be frank, if he got arrested and lost his job, that wouldn’t be good. So doing so would be last resort. Know you weren’t saying to right now, just sharing my thoughts.

That said, I’m already concerned that his lack of income the last couple of months has already impacted his future support. He can make a lot but he hasn’t been recently — by choice.

Also, I do have cloud and a private email. One thing I’ve done that works for me is I set up another email in a code name that I email pictures, text messages and even personal journaling of what happened today. In the subject line I put the date and a brief description.  Then I explain events because the comments all get confused otherwise. Basically it’s an electronic journal. I wish I had stared this a long time ago, but it is what it is. Thanks for checking on this.

Mulling it all over. Thank you.

[UBPDHelp]

UBPDHelp,

Let me suggest a tool that might help in your problem solving efforts.   It's part of the Yale Communications Model, and it was a big help to me.

When _______event happens/situation occurs______
I think _____________
I feel _______________
so I will need to _____________.

Let me fill in the blanks.   

When the cat sits in the freshly cleaned and folded laundry basket
I think  my clothes are full of cat hairs again
and I feel frustrated and angry
so I will need to put a piece of aluminum foil on top of the basket when I fold the laundry next.

When/If  H learns I have contacted a T, H will feel threatened for sure.
I think this means that ______________ might happen or that ___________ could.
I feel ______________ and ___________
so I will need to do _________________ for now.

the more detail you can fill in the easier your decision making will be.    lots of details.

same example for the lawyer.

When I speak/contact the lawyer
I think:

• the most important thing is _____________
• the thing I need the most is ______________

• my first question should be __________
• I should be able to get _____________ from the meeting

I feel  _________________
So I need to do _______________ about the lawyer meeting.

Thanks BabyDucks.  It’s funny, I’ve done very similar with my older kids trying to get them to problem solve. Not sure why I didn’t do it for myself.

I think I do something more scattered in my head, but I am definitely someone who needs it organized and spelled out.

This is really helpful.  Thank you.