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[Janey33]

Why do I feel so guilty and anxious the majority of the time?

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[babyducks]

Welcome,

that's a good question.    it's not normal to feel guilty and anxious all the time.

do you feel comfortable telling us more about what is going on?

'ducks

[Janey33]

My girlfriend has BPD, she has intrusive thoughts about me all the time that make her feel like she doesn't want to be here anymore. So I feel guilty even though I've done nothing wrong, and I feel anxious that these thoughts can pop up at any moment.  I'm finding it difficult at the moment

[babyducks]

that makes a great deal of sense.   it would be difficult to deal with.

was your girlfriend diagnosed?

[petunia95]

Hi Janey,

I'm new to this forum but I've been dealing this affliction for a long, long time. Borderlines are expert at projecting their issues onto you and fighting with you about them. When you say your gf doesn't want to be "here" anymore, are you referring to your relationship with her or like she doesn't want to be on earth anymore? How long have you known her?

I'm sorry you are having a difficult time right now. The situations I get into with my mother are the most challenging times I have ever dealt with.

[Janey33]

Hi, thank you for understanding. 

We have been together for 2 years, she was diagnosed just over a year ago. Good days are great, we do fun stuff together and I love her very much.  But there are so many bad days, when I say she doesn't want to be here I mean she doesn't want to live anymore, she doesn't think it will get better and she blames herself for dragging me down.
She doesn't have anyone else and the mental health service isn't the best.
I just feel like I need a break from it but I can't get a break cos she feels so low every day so I can't leave her because I dunno what she will do?

[babyducks]

Thanks very much for explaining a little more.   I know this is hard to talk about.

Reaching out for support for your self is a great thing to do.   I am glad you are here.  It's hard to take time for ourselves.   What are you doing now for self care?

[Janey33]

I'm not really doing anything? I wake up before everyone else so I get an hour peace in the mornings. But during the day I am constantly with my girlfriend, or at work. We work together too so it isn't much of a break.  I hardly ever see my family unless she is with me, and I've done how cut off from my friends.
I read occasionally, but just don't feel I have the time or concentration.
I suggest taking time for myself but it causes her to feel rejected and that causes quite a worrying dip in her mood, sometimes suicidal threats.  So I just feel like I don't have a choice, I have to be with her all the time or she'll threaten to do something risky. 
I tried talking to my mum about this a few weeks ago but my girlfriend was so upset and annoyed that I'd told my mum it caused such a big deal that it's put me off talking again.
I just need a break and I'm struggling to explain that in a way that won't make her feel like I'm leaving her.

[babyducks]

I suggest taking time for myself but it causes her to feel rejected and that causes quite a worrying dip in her mood, sometimes suicidal threats. 

I just need a break and I'm struggling to explain that in a way that won't make her feel like I'm leaving her.

There is a communication technique or skill that is suggested a lot while communicating with a pwBPD (person with BPD)

it's called SET.     

Support
Empathy
Truth.

I bike ride for exercise.   my partner would get upset if I went for a bike ride because she felt I was saying that I enjoyed the bike ride more than her.   it was an argument between us.

I tried several versions of SET to talk about it.

Support:   I want to tell you tomorrow after work I am going for a bike ride to get some exercise.
Empathy:  I know that isn't your favorite thing.
Truth:   Still it's important I take care of myself and get some exercise.   I will be back around X o'clock.

Communicating in a SET type style can help lower the tension.   It might take a few attempts to have an impact.

what do you think?

[babyducks]

there is more on SET at this link:

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=69272.0

S.E.T.- Jerold J. Kreisman, MD published SET (support, empathy, truth) in I Hate You, Don't Leave Me in 1991. 
 
When first learning S.E.T., it can seem that you are being asked to agree with the person with BPD (pwBPD). It is important to clarify that validating feelings does not mean that you agree with them, only that you recognize that the pwBPD is feeling them. It does not mean that you are letting the pwBPD off the hook, instead you are focusing on honest communication and ensuring that you are being heard, not just reacting to and defending against what is being said.
 
• S= Support refers to an initial statement which indicates the loved one supports the person with borderline personality disorder. It is a statement that begins with "I" and demonstrates concern and a desire to help. The support statement is meant to reassure the BP that the relationship is a safe one, and that her needs matter even during this difficult moment.
 
• E= Empathy refers to communicating that the loved one understands what the pwBPD is feeling, and focuses on "you." It is not a conveyance of pity or sympathy, but instead a true awareness and validation of the feelings of the pwBPD: "I see you are angry, and I understand how you can get mad at me," "How frustrating this must be for you."  It is important not to tell the pwBPD how she is feeling, but instead put her demonstrated feelings into words. The goal is to convey a clear understanding of the uncomfortable feelings she is having and that they are OK.
 
• T= Truth refers to a realistic and honest assessment of the situation and the pwBPDs role in solving the problem. It is an objective statement that focuses on the "it" -- not on the subjective experience of the pwBPD or Non-BPD. Often the pwBPD may seem to be asking, or demanding, something impossible, not taking an active role or responsibility in resolving the issue, or even presenting you with a "no-win" situation. The truth statement is meant to clearly and honestly respond to the difficult demand or behavior of the pwBPD, while placing responsibility appropriately: "This is what I can do…," "This is what will happen…,"

[Brooklyn1974]

babyducks that seems like excellent advice.  I don't mean to hijack this thread.  Would you be able to read my issue and give me some advice?

[Janey33]

Thank you, yes I guess saying I just need space does make things worse, but I only ever say that if I'm at breaking point.  But I've tried giving notice and being reassuring in the past, for example saying I'm going to see my mum and that I won't be round there long and looking forward to doing something together after,  but the whole time I was there I got constant messages, so I couldn't really relax with my mum any way so just thought it's not worth trying to do that again.  
I just feel like she needs to be with me all the time or something will go wrong.
I will give SET a go and see how I get on.  
I appreciate the advice , thank you :-)

[babyducks]

I think that would upset me a lot if I was at my Mums and got constant text messages.   

I couldn't really relax with my mum any way so just thought it's not worth trying to do that again.  

and I might be likely to think that it's not worth trying to do that.    Still,   that's probably not the best for me.     it's important to have support and contacts out side the relationship.    who can you lean on for support Janey?   

I just feel like she needs to be with me all the time or something will go wrong.

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=87006.0

this is from that link:

We all know neediness is at the core of BPD and I think it has much to do with how people with BPD look at the world and at people. someone with BPD is driven by a deep and intense need to be loved while at the same time fearing the object of that love will go away or will hurt him/her.

Neediness and fear are all about what is happening to the person, and they leave little room for empathy or even awareness of anyone else's needs. a person with BPD uses others as an outside means to comfort themselves and to perhaps even give themselves worth, which they believe they lack

that doesn't mean we should give up on our needs.   it does probably mean we have to work harder at taking care of ourselves.     you mentioned the mental health service where you are isn't the best.   unfortunately that is true in so many places.   is she working on therapy at all?    how about you?    have they included you in the treatment plan at all?

'ducks

[Janey33]

I am used to constant messages, I get them if im in a different room in the house or if one of us goes to the toilet, or if i pop to shop. But those particular messages were suicidal so I found it hard to ignore, then I get comments later about not caring about her.
So now I don't really go anywhere without her, but even if she came to my mum's with me she would still discreetly text me saying she feels like PLEASE READ, which I think is a hint to leave, or text me saying she wants to hurt herself, so I can't ignore her messages and I can't enjoy my time with my family, so I just feel stuck.
I don't really lean on anyone for support, I can talk to my family about other issues, just nothing that concerns her because she needs it to all be a secret.
Her care coordinator said they would make a referral for me to get some support but I've not heard anything since,
Luckily I've found this site which is a great  help.
She started a DBT group but there was a bit of an incident so she now has 1-1 DBT with a psychotherapist once a week which I attend with her.
We have learnt some techniques to help her if distressed, but there is still so much to learn.  She finds it hard to engage with them and doesn't really apply what she's learnt, I feel like I have to convince her to attend the sessions, and I have to remind her of the things she could be doing to bring stress levels down or she just won't do it?
I feel like the service relies on me to keep her safe, I have to keep an eye on her, have her bank card so she can't buy anything risky, lock everything away that could harm her etc.
I just feel like if I wasn't here what would happen to her? Surely I can't be the only option to keep her alive and well? But I take all the responsibility for it and am starting to think I've made a rod for my own back.

Thank you for your understanding and support, I really appreciate it :-)

[Janey33]

"someone with BPD is driven by a deep and intense need to be loved while at the same time fearing the object of that love will go away or will hurt him/her."

^ yes!  I had a read through that link, it is all so relatable.
I am needed every moment of every day to provide validation, while at the same time I get numerous questions or statements or "what ifs" implying I could leave , so I need to give constant reassurance too.
Reading through what others commented on that link also made me relate to feeling objectified, which is quite sad. If I give her what she needs then everything is fine. If I don't then it can and has caused such big problems. 
There is just so much to it, this relationship and what comes with it. Its so intense.

[babyducks]

Hi Janey33,

I'm glad you found the link helpful, even if it is sad.     Keep digging around this website,   there are a lot of resources and workshops in the various libraries.

it certainly sounds like you are in a very difficult spot.    what you describe doesn't sound sustainable.   You aren't possibly going to be able to support her 100% of the time.

How do you think it would go if at the next DBT session you ask to talk about taking one night a week for yourself.. to go do what ever you want to do?   and maybe it's time to give the care coordinator a call and ask for that referral?

You are dealing with very difficult stuff.     I would suggest you cultivate allies,... people who are there to help support and advocate for you.

what do you think?

'ducks

[babyducks]

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=137370.0

this link talks about inappropriate phone calls (and texts).   it talks about setting limits that work for you about what is an acceptable calling/texting pattern.

I'd encourage you to read through it.     the discussion is about how a phone can be used as a manner of control.   

what would be a good pattern of calling and texts for you?

[Janey33]

Hey, thank you, yes I will do a bit of digging, I do find this website a little difficult to navigate but hopefully I'll get used to it soon.
I think if I bought that up in DBT she would get extremely distressed and I'd have to suffer the consequences after the session, plus the therapist made it clear he isn't a couples counsellor, so I woudlnt want to take over her session with my issues.

Coincidentally just had a call for a carers assessment for my referral.   I feel good that I'm getting somewhere, but also feel so upset. When the phone rang and I said I'm going upstairs to talk in private she was annoyed. She said it makes her feel crap that I won't talk I  front of her.
My brain is spinning! I support all of her appointments and give her encouragement to help help, but I'm not getting the same in return, it's all about how she feels about it! And when I said I would have liked her encouragement she took that to mean that she isn't good enough and I don't find her supportive, so again wanted to kill herself.
I have to back down with my feelings to give her reassurance, so she keeps herself safe, and I'm left feeling alone and isolated.
I feel like I've had enough, and it's hard for me to find the patients to think it's all for the best long term.

Thank you for taking the time to read and offer a advice I really appreciate it :-)

[babyducks]

Hi Janey33,

I hope the referral works out for you.    that's a good step to take care of yourself.

I often felt the way you felt now.   Like it was always all about how my partner felt and how she worked to keep herself emotionally safe.   It was a tough situation and very hard on me.    I often burnt myself out trying to take care of her.

The thing is the more I tried to take care of her... the more she needed.     I had a hard time finding that line between enabling bad behavior and supporting her better choices.

how are you doing today with things?

'ducks

[Janey33]

Hey, thank you, yes I'm really looking forward to hearing back from them, it just might be a while because of covid-19 everything has slowed down but at least help will come soon.

Yes I get burnt out quite quickly these days, life in general is just quite difficult, then with taking care of her, and work, and I currently have a teenager that is also a handful, it can just be too much.
I feel like I'm being pulled from pillar to post most days, and I'm annoyed at myself for getting into this position. Could I have done things differently, set boundaries earlier on. I just frustrate myself.

I'm sorry to hear that you had a hard time too, but it sounds like you've come out the other side with lots of wisdom. 

Today hasn't been too bad, I've tried to stay optimistic and there hasn't been anything to cause a problem.

I'm worried about tomorrow because it's fathers day so we will be spending the day apart with our dad's. 
We haven't had a day apart for a long time and I am preparing for lots of messages. And I feel like she will be ready to leave her dad's sooner than I'm ready to leave mine, so I will feel guilty if I feel like I'm making her wait around for me, but she won't go home without me.
We will see, she could surprise me?

Janey

[babyducks]

How did you make out with Father's Day?

You mentioned that you are little frustrated that you didn't set boundaries earlier.   That's understandable, still you didn't have a real appreciation of how bad this behavior could become did you?

How do you feel today about starting some small easy to hold boundaries around the messaging and texting?    did you take a look at the link from above?

how would it feel for you to start to delay responses to messages... maybe just by a couple of minutes?    do you leave the ringer on your phone on?   how would it feel to mute your phone and only check it when you wanted to ?

in the link there is a discussion of

With the advent of cell phones, there is a permanent invisible connection between the partners, causing both to lose their identity and struggle to act as individuals (enmeshed relationship state), increasing the problems of the pwBPD to regulate emotions.

does that describe what you are experiencing?
'ducks

[Janey33]

Hi,
Yes it was pretty much as expected, before we left we had a little talk about how she felt anxious to not be together that day, I tried to rationalise and reassure her but it got a little heated. 
It was so good to get out and see my family I had a lovely day. However towards the planned time to leave I started getting more and more messages, saying she felt really low and didn't want to live anymore. So I felt obliged to wrap things up with my family to meet her, which upset me because I could of happily stayed a while.  She also doesn't like it when I drink alcohol (im not a big drinker at all, and hardly ever drink since I've been with her). Before I went to my dad's she asked if I'd be drinking and I just said probably not. I did end up having a couple of glasses of wine and she kind of made me feel bad about it.

I did delay my response and my phone was on silent, which I am happy to do, but I feel like I pay for it when I finally answer because not only do I have to deal with the initial issue, but on top of that I have to hear how I haven't replied for however long.

Yes that sounds about right, I do feel I'm losing my identity, I'm not the same bubbly fun loving positive person I was 2 years ago.  And I do feel that she struggles to act as an individual,  everything has to be the 2 of us.  Someone's even commented on it as usual behaviour which is uncomfortable to look at because we are joined at the hip.  And if we are not together like yesterday we are joined at the phone. 

It's very bad company when you're with someone and they are on their phone constantly, and that's what I feel I am like without her.  She is the same but I don't think she is bothered by it?

I feel bad but it seems like the boy who cried wolf, there has been so many days that she says she just don't want to be here anymore. It used to scare me that she would attempt to take her life, but now I'm so used to hearing it that I don't believe it, and she thinks that I don't take her seriously?

Sorry for rambling, thank you for taking the time to read :-)

Janey

[babyducks]

that's a really interesting post Janey, full of good insights.

I'm going to suggest you Google "enmeshed relationships"  or "enmeshed relationships states".     I think you will find it interesting.

I'm going to give this some thought and will be back.

'ducks

[Janey33]

Thanks 'ducks, I will take a look

[babyducks]

Hello Janey33,

I remember how confusing things seemed when I first got here.    People tossed out some big ideas at me and I had no frame of reference to understand them.    For some things it took me quite a while to develop the knack for seeing how they fit into my situation.     

So of course I am going to toss out some big ideas.   

Don't worry if they don't make a bunch of sense the first time you read them.    It will become clearer over time.

we left we had a little talk about how she felt anxious to not be together that day, I tried to rationalise and reassure her but it got a little heated. 

pwBPD do not have a stable sense of self.   when I first heard that I thought what the  does that mean?   

basically this:
- Intense fear or paranoia about being rejected, even to the extent that they need to be approved of by people they don't like
- Often change their persons, opinions or beliefs, depending on who they are with
- Lack of a consistent sense of self of who they are, or may have an overly rigid sense of self
- Often present a facade. May be fearful of being seen for "who I really am." Automatically assuming that they will be rejected or criticized.
- Out of sight, out of mind.. difficulty realizing that they or others exist when not together
- Simultaneously see themselves as both inferior and superior to others

for my partner (now Ex) she often changed her persona dramatically.   she actually went through the legal process of changing her name... 3 times.   once when we were together.     the new names she choose were always very ethnically centered.   and when she changed her name she adopted the characteristics and traits of the new ethnicity.   the changes were dramatic and intense.    that is how my Ex displayed her unstable sense of self... your partner might show it differently.    if you look can you see signs that her sense of self is not well defined?

I started getting more and more messages, saying she felt really low and didn't want to live anymore. So I felt obliged to wrap things up with my family to meet her, which upset me because I could of happily stayed a while. 

so when a person doesn't have a well defined sense of self they have to attach to some one else.   basically they don't feel whole unless they are with some one else.

I did delay my response and my phone was on silent, which I am happy to do, but I feel like I pay for it when I finally answer because not only do I have to deal with the initial issue, but on top of that I have to hear how I haven't replied for however long.

this is starting to touch on that enmeshed relationship state that you might have googled.    very very simply put... an enmeshed relationship state is characterized by weak boundaries, lack of emotional separation and intrusive demands for support and attention.

I do feel I'm losing my identity, . 

if our identity is wrapped up in meeting the other person's needs, our own life goals are thwarted.   

It's very bad company when you're with someone and they are on their phone constantly, and that's what I feel I am like without her.  She is the same but I don't think she is bothered by it?

No she probably isn't bothered by it.     Her need to feel whole and attached to some one is greater than feeling shamed or embarrassed by inappropriate behavior.

I feel bad but it seems like the boy who cried wolf, there has been so many days that she says she just don't want to be here anymore. It used to scare me that she would attempt to take her life, but now I'm so used to hearing it that I don't believe it, and she thinks that I don't take her seriously?

suicidal ideation is very hard to deal with.  for exactly the reasons you describe.    it can be used as a tool to increase our Fear, Obligation and Guilt.   The FOG we live in.

of course I am going to give you another link:
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=82926.0

the link talks about controlling styles and how FOG is used as a transaction.   if you do this... I will do that... and then you have to do XYZ.     I hope you take a look.

that's probably enough for now.    I look forward to your response.

'ducks

[Janey33]

Hi 'ducks
Thank you so much for taking the time to give advice and support it's a great help.

I know what you mean about 'stable sense of self' with my gf it's less dramatic but I have noticed that she will change her interests slightly depending on who she is with.

Out of sight out of mind actually came up in our chat the other day, she said that she thinks if not with her I will call out of love with her, or decide to leave her, so if she is with me all the time she can remind me how much I love her.
I understand that is how she feels, but I just feel the opposite... absence makes the heart grow fonder, I'd like time to miss her so that we can catch up and be happy to see eachother.

When we were apart she did explain in a message that she just felt lost and didn't fit in... she was with her parents and siblings in the home she grew up in, so I found it hard to understand, I know if I was there with her she would have been having fun and enjoying herself.

Yes I did Google enmeshed relationships and found it very relatable, I want to do a bit more research in how to unravel myself from it.

Yes my life goals have come to a standstill, there is so many things that I want to do, experience, learn, achieve... but I just can't do any of them right now because I'm so caught up in this relationship and caring for her.

Yes I have heard of FOG and I do feel that what she is doing is controlling behaviour, manipulative.   I tried talking to her about it before and she was so offended that I implied she was manipulative that it caused a while new issue so I just thought I'd keep it to myself.
The worry is that there has been a few times she has attempted to take her life, so if I assume she is just saying it to get what she wants I could be wrong and end up being to blame for her actions.
It sort of seems like she is giving me the finger and saying 'if you don't believe me I'll just do it to prove a point ' it's just a risky game that I don't want to play.

Thanks again, this is really helpful.
Janey

[babyducks]

you're very welcome Janey... people were here for me when I showed up confused and hurt and some day you will pass this on to some one else.

Out of sight out of mind actually came up in our chat the other day, she said that she thinks if not with her I will call out of love with her, or decide to leave her, so if she is with me all the time she can remind me how much I love her.

oofff.    sadly this is one of the traits of BPD.   and yes she really feels it.    Still it's pretty maladaptive.   It's actually hurting the relationship not making it stronger.

When we were apart she did explain in a message that she just felt lost and didn't fit in... she was with her parents and siblings in the home she grew up in, so I found it hard to understand, I know if I was there with her she would have been having fun and enjoying herself.

she has attached to you as a source of the things she lacks... stability, soothing, support.    and obviously that isn't a good thing.    eventually you will not be able to provide the things she lacks in the amounts she needs.   not because you aren't trying but because you are human... 

Yes I have heard of FOG and I do feel that what she is doing is controlling behaviour, manipulative.   I tried talking to her about it before and she was so offended that I implied she was manipulative that it caused a while new issue so I just thought I'd keep it to myself.

you are not going to be able to talk with her at this level for a while.    better to talk with us here,... and with the therapist when you get hooked up with one.    how is that going by the way?

you can't talk about this with her right now because you are both operating from different places.   you are trying to resolve relationship issues with what you perceive to be an equal partner...  she is trying to survive the catastrophe of not feeling whole or secure.     way different places.

[Janey33]

I think I feel differently about it each day depending on my mood and energy levels;
1. I love her and want to be there for her, and regrettably actually quite like being helpful, feeling like the hero that saves the day.
2. I feel like I'm in this forever so I need to learn everything I can, about her condition, and how to help our relationship. 
3.  This is all too much hard work, I just want to runaway and hide.  I've had controlling partners in the past and o can't go through this again, I just want to be selfish and do all the things I wish to do with my life.

I'm having this battle with myself about what yo do for the best.

Thank you I feel like I needed to hear that, you're right! We are in different places... what if we're never on the same page?

[babyducks]

regrettably actually quite like being helpful, feeling like the hero that saves the day.

Yup.  We are pretty much all  heroes that like saving the day.    We tend to over function in the hero on the white horse role naturally.   Then we run into some one who calls on all our hero tendencies.   they need a hero.   we become a hero.   they need more rescuing.   we return to what is familiar and double down... we rescue more.    then they need more rescuing... more support... its something we are good at so we do it more.    it's a slow steady decline.

of course you feel a lot of conflicting emotions about the relationship.   there is a lot going on here.    anyone would be thinking/feeling the same things you are.   that's very natural.

https://bpdfamily.com/content/what-does-it-take-be-relationship

from this link

A person with BPD is emotionally underdeveloped and does not have "adult" emotional skills - especially in times of stress.  If you are in this type of relationship it is important to have realistic expectations for what the relationship can be in terms of consistent respect, trust and support, honesty and accountability, and in terms of negotiation and fairness, or expectations of non-threatening behavior.  It is important to accept the relationship behavior for what it is - not hope the person will permanently return to the idealization phase, not accept the external excuses for the bad behavior, and not hope that changing your behavior to heal someone else.

 

We are in different places... what if we're never on the same page?

it will take some time to figure this out.    it's not going to be immediately clear in a week or two.    can you give yourself a time line... roughly like... I will take 6 months... a year to figure out if this relationship is sustainable... and commit to working here and with a therapist to make a good comfortable well thought out decision about these types of questions?

'ducks

[Harri]

This thread reached the post limit and has been split and locked.  Part 2 is here:
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=345236.msg13114632#msg13114632

Thank you.