Parenting/BPD question...how much should I let their own "logic" teach them?

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

You mention D15 could be BPD-in-training. And you've learned a lot about BPD logic. Do you expect that setting traps will lead to improved behavior?
 
This suggests ... you might be getting lured down into the weeds at D15's level, which is a win for her. What would the 30,000 foot view look like?
 

This is excellent and an unavoidable "axiom" of BPD/BPD in training...and frankly normal teens.

So here is what I need help with presenting a reinforcing..teaching.  There is a religious element to this so pardon this foray down that path. 

Matthew 7  V2


2
For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.

That way I read and apply this...is that if you are going to hold someone else to a standard, you should hold yourself to that standard as well.

This verse is a kissing cousin to "do unto others as..."

This is sort of a fundamental/foundational thing.

So...I appreciate and have to agree that "setting traps" is likely to be counterproductive and I also am just as adamant that somehow..someway...she needs to examine and wrestle with the "unequal measures" that she is using.

I often give out advice to "not save BPDs from themselves"...no that's not exactly the same as setting a trap or letting them walk into their own catch 22.

Ugg...I'm not saying this very well..but I think you guys get what I'm after.

Please help me find a productive way to address this...at some point.

Best,

FF

[formflier]

You mention D15 could be BPD-in-training. And you've learned a lot about BPD logic. Do you expect that setting traps will lead to improved behavior?
 
This suggests ... you might be getting lured down into the weeds at D15's level, which is a win for her. What would the 30,000 foot view look like?
 

This is excellent and an unavoidable "axiom" of BPD/BPD in training...and frankly normal teens.

So here is what I need help with presenting a reinforcing..teaching.  There is a religious element to this so pardon this foray down that path. 

Matthew 7  V2


2
For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.

That way I read and apply this...is that if you are going to hold someone else to a standard, you should hold yourself to that standard as well.

This verse is a kissing cousin to "do unto others as..."

This is sort of a fundamental/foundational thing.

So...I appreciate and have to agree that "setting traps" is likely to be counterproductive and I also am just as adamant that somehow..someway...she needs to examine and wrestle with the "unequal measures" that she is using.

I often give out advice to "not save BPDs from themselves"...no that's not exactly the same as setting a trap or letting them walk into their own catch 22.

Ugg...I'm not saying this very well..but I think you guys get what I'm after.

Please help me find a productive way to address this...at some point.

Best,

FF

[empath]

As a mom of a d24 (now married to her long-time bf) and d16, I wouldn't be comfortable with the added older d bf either. It's more of a developmental stage thing for me, though. If it were 20-somethings doing a ride together with added bf/gf, it would seem more reasonable. That is a conversation between you and d24.

I think it would be wise to separate the discomfort with the ride from the grade issues. Combining them "muddies the waters" and could make the whole thing confusing, less confusing for a 15yo is better. I think this is fairly normal logic for 15 - remember the whole prefrontal cortex is still developing which means sometimes logic is a bit whacky. Add in hormones and developing independence... well.

If d15 has been deceptive about her grades this semester, that is something that is her responsibility. The consequences for that might be not being able to do the ride regardless of her older sister's plans.

[formflier]

So...D24 and I have exchanged some very clear and helpful emails.  Not sure if it matters for this discussion, but she is a "mini-me" when it comes to thinking and communicating.

So it's like communicating with me at 24.

Essentially it never occurred to her that I would not be comfortable with anyone that she might add, she does see "3rd wheel" thing "but doesn't see it as a problem"...they can have separate tents or whatever.  

She has yet to respond to my latest email.

While these things are usually on a spectrum..I'm pretty hard over on the side of things that says "ask for what you want and do what I've said yes you can do".  I make a point of finding things I can say yes to...vice saying no to different things.

So...it's not unusual for me to say (instead of saying no)..."Hey (insert kiddo name)...I'm not able to say yes to this.  (sometimes I'll insert a "right now"...it just depends)  Would you be able to say yes to (insert alternate thing)."

Anyway..so when D24 and D15 wanted to go on a trip together..I said yes to that.  I did not say..."now I'm excluding the possibility of X and excluding the possibility of Y"...just "you two versus the world...long horse trip.  Love it...let's do it."

Anyway...I'm an ESTJ, so I stay in my head most of the time.  If I teach my kids to mean what they say and say what they mean...then my parenting task as a decider is limited to what is actually said.  If I validate  an expectation of evaluating the unsaid...well...in a literal sense of the word my "workload" is infinite.

She hasn't responded to that yet...but if it was me at 24..I would get that problem and not be able to "solve" it.

I've not issued anything "final", I wanted to be deliberate about thinking and talking to other parents.

Not one...ZERO...would even consider doing this.  Oh...I should correct that to say FFw is apparently a fan, she is coming at it from the "oh wouldn't that be fun" angle.

This is a long time "discussion" between us.  I approach these things from the point of view of..."doing this hard thing and doing it well will help mature my kids and make them more resilient.  (FF parenting rant starting...it seems like "resiliency" is something hardly anyone talks about any more...they seem to always want to "protect" their children's feelings...especially from hardship.  I could go on forever...better end my rant)

D24s "best" points are how much "easier" it would be on the trip if a third person is there.  For instance, they are in the back country and realize they need something from town.  D24 boyfriend can stay with horses while D24 and D15 drive to town (in just the truck..leaving the trailer).  Well...I can't "fault" her thinking..that would be MUCH easier, yet it still doesn't trump changing the "character" of the trip between sisters bonding...validating that girls can go do hard things in the world "without a man"...and maybe they "do without" for a couple of days and become better planners as a result..or just become more resilient by working through the hardship of "doing without".

Oh yeah...and I bet that somewhere in this adventure they realize they are having fun...

Anyway...after a few days of getting good sleep, being deliberate about thinking about different angles and stuff to this trip...I still struggle to come up with any good reason I should get onboard with other people going.

I had thought that perhaps I was being overly emotional about D24s divorce (I really like and trusted that guy...up until he cleared out the bank account and ran away...the day they were going to go to MC for first time).   Even after lots of reflection and realizing that most other people say they wouldn't do this...I don't think a desire to "screen guys more carefully" is part of this.

I'm quite aware that all of my parenting decisions are being "watched"...that I'm not only making the decision of the moment, but I'm setting "precedent"...so if I said yes to D15 going, it opens myself up for D10 or D8 to say (in the future) "you let so and so do XYZ..why can't I...XYZ"

Basically...I don't want to be a parent that does things on a whim...I want to be consistent about applying my principals and values.

So..here in a day or two I need to raise this issue again, although I've been clear in prior discussions that I'm not ok with adding people.

Thanks so much looking at all the angles here.  Yes..kinda long but I like to lay out all my thinking...because sometimes you guys find different ways to consider things.  If you see something...fire away.

Best,

FF

[Cat Familiar]

I’m back to the horse angle. You have a threehorse slantload trailer?

But currently you only have two horses. One is a problem loader.

So the girls are looking for a third horse. The one they’re looking at hasn’t been ridden for years? Oldest daughter thinks she can get it into shape in two weeks. Trip is in less than a month.

But how will all three get along together? Will new horse load well? If not, will it encourage the “bad loader” to act up even more?

How experienced is boyfriend with horses? Yeah, he could potentially be of help, but he might also be a liability if he’s without much horse experience.

I know you don’t want to get into the weeds with D24 about some of these issues. Suffice it to say that perhaps buying a new horse without doing adequate due diligence is not an idea you will support.

[kells76]

A few "tree" thoughts in this "forest":

Well...I can't "fault" her thinking..that would be MUCH easier, yet it still doesn't trump changing the "character" of the trip between sisters bonding...validating that girls can go do hard things in the world "without a man"...and maybe they "do without" for a couple of days and become better planners as a result..or just become more resilient by working through the hardship of "doing without".

1. I'd let go of the "it'd be better for D24 & D15 to learn that they are capable" angle. It's likely true, and it's something you value. It's in a different position in both their hierarchies of values than in yours, though. I think they know where you stand by now, and it'd end up getting you all, as CF says, in the weeds to try to convince each other that "the trip would be better with/without a guy along". So, given how many issues could get woven together here, and your desire to be deliberate and clear, and your limited energy, I wouldn't spend any more time on this angle.

2. Especially because I think the issue isn't whether the trip would be "easier/better/harder/whatever" with or without BF. It sounds like one of your core values is that regardless of anything else -- regardless of whether D15 got great grades & told the truth about them, how nice of a guy new BF is, if he sleeps in his own tent, whether two or three horses are perfect loaders and well trained... regardless of any other variable, you would still say No to D15 going if the only other two people on the trip are D24 and BF? Is that an accurate distillation?

3. I re-read this line:

I still struggle to come up with any good reason I should get onboard with other people going.

So just to make sure... if it were D24, her best female friend, and D15, that would also not be OK with you? Or is it specifically the BF? Really want to make sure I understand.

...

I agree with empath:

I think it would be wise to separate the discomfort with the ride from the grade issues. Combining them "muddies the waters" and could make the whole thing confusing

and CF:

I know you don’t want to get into the weeds with D24 about some of these issues. Suffice it to say that perhaps buying a new horse without doing adequate due diligence is not an idea you will support.

Keeping different issues in separate lanes seems like the way to go.

If, no matter what, it's a hard No for D15 to go on a trip where there's one other person plus that person's adult boyfriend... then it's a No, no matter how perfect everything else is in the setup.

One thought I had was that if you end up saying to D15 "No, I'm sorry, you can't go on the trip because an adult boyfriend is going" (or however you phrase it), and she returns to the "you're punishing me [for the grades thing]"...

you could clarify that you wanted to keep the grades thing and the horse thing very separate, and you were planning a separate "consequence" for the grades, but "if she really wants to be punished for lying about grades by not going on the trip, you are open to that".

I mean... maybe don't really do that. But it is an amusing double bind. But please don't actually do that, unless it can be done with love.

...

Overall, thoughts are:

jettison any extraneous issues.

keep separate issues in separate lanes.

identify and stick to one core issue/value around which decision-making pivots.

[GaGrl]

kells, I think you nailed it.

I just say that I would not be comfortable with a 15 year old teen going on an extended trip with her 24 year old sister plus boyfriend.

(That is coming from Gagrl having apologized to her parents for the entire year she was 15 years old.)

[kells76]

You can also consider "joining" D15 in her upset, if it can be done tactfully.

"D15, I wanted you to go with D24, too. I'm sorry she chose to bring BF along -- I wish things were different for you."

There is probably a better way to phrase that that's less... triangular... but the core of it would be true, right? You did really want her to go with just D24, and it's the presence of BF that has changed your mind.