No Contact was too good to be true, uBPD sibling threatening legal action

[Depression = 72% of members]

So...I want more information about who can take her out of the facility and how much notice is required.

It's one thing for your sis to take her on a walk in the facility courtyard..it's entirely another for your sis to get Mom in a car and drive to who knows where..especially unannounced.

I remember taking my Dad out for doctors appointments and such and there was planning associated days in advance (he was in long term stroke recovery..so slightly different)

Is it possible for the staff/doctors there to say "Walk in the courtyard today is fine, if you want to take her outside we'll have to consult with her doctors first.  We've started keeping a closer eye on (insert symptom)"

Best,

FF

[formflier]

So...I want more information about who can take her out of the facility and how much notice is required.

It's one thing for your sis to take her on a walk in the facility courtyard..it's entirely another for your sis to get Mom in a car and drive to who knows where..especially unannounced.

I remember taking my Dad out for doctors appointments and such and there was planning associated days in advance (he was in long term stroke recovery..so slightly different)

Is it possible for the staff/doctors there to say "Walk in the courtyard today is fine, if you want to take her outside we'll have to consult with her doctors first.  We've started keeping a closer eye on (insert symptom)"

Best,

FF

[Mommydoc]

Thanks for the advice.  I like the approach FF.  Yes, the curve balls keep coming, if nothing this is interesting.  I kept telling my therapist, that NC was too easy, and I was waiting for the other shoe to drop.  I knew she would come, and somehow just knowing the dates  and that I will be here, is  more reassuring than the not knowing and worrying that she would show up when I was away and try to do something crazy.

Some interesting developments:
-The Facility Director has definitively reassured me that they will not allow my mother to leave the facility with my sister.    I have arranged my schedule to be working close by ( the facility is between home and work, so I will be within 5-10 minutes if they call to alert me).  Yes, I will probably stop by unannounced each day she is here.
-She is arriving the last night of our “ staycation”.  I didn't want to give that up or lie about it, so I made an impulsive decision to invite her and her son to stay with us, first night of her trip/ last night of the staycation.  We have the room, and she loves the resort.  She is getting in late, my husband and son, will be with me, and I will leave for work bright and early next day.  You may think I am crazy, but she is really into the “photo perfect” moments, and this might set a positive tone to the trip.  My expectations are low and I don’t expect her to behave, but I didn't want to give up the last day or to try to cover it up. It saves the trust a night of hotel.
-I got a text this morning “ I forgot to tell you, my husband has work in town and will be joining us, let’s do a family picture for mom for her bday gift.”

This triggers a few things for me:
-Husband has probably been planning to come all along.  My son say her texts with him indicate she is making plans to “entertain her son”.  Son/husband don’t like being around old people, so my sense is this has become more about a “trust paid” family vacation and less about visiting mom?   I am going to ask the facility to share with me, how much time she is actually there. Easy to do, as they require sign in/sign out electronically.
-Husband coming for “business” but trust is paying for hotel and rental car?  Trust pays, and he writes off the costs?  I know lots of people make vacations into business trips so they can write it off on taxes, but this bothers me, as I agreed for trust to pay. 
-My mom can’t see very well, so not sure a family photo is the right gift for her. This is for my sister.  It goes along with “facade” of us being one big happy family, and her desire to create posts on social media.  I will go along with the sentiment, but not going to do backbends to make it happen. Let her find the photographer, etc etc. She is only here for a very short period of time ( weekdays) and we are all working the days she is here. 
-Based on what she has “told me” she is only here for 4 days/3 nights, she has asked for payment for  hotel for 4 nights. /Might be an honest discrepancy but ... not planning to pay until there are receipts and they aren’t from a resort in another city! 

I think it will be great for my mom to see her after almost 2 years, and I need to make it as positive as possible for my mom.   Normally this manipulative stuff would be emotionally disruptive for me, but this time, I am in “ game on” mode, my goal is to get though it, stay curious and calm,  and then go on my planned vacation without worries. Appreciate any advice on the new developments.

[formflier]

I love the staycation idea!  Solid proactive approach.

I would drop any objections to the photo..just roll with it.  Don't contribute or anything either.

"Photos sounds like a lovely idea, please share details as much ahead of time as is possible so I can deconflict with work"

Solid work on talking with facility director..getting assurances.

Paying for trip:  You did not agree to give them blank check.  I like where your head is going regarding checking how much time they actually spend there.

Realize that you are setting a precedent...and realize that this is first time.  So...tread carefully.

You have been a leader for groups of people for long time now.  Is it easier to be a grinch early on and then get more liberal over time...OR...is it easier to "do whatever" with a policy and then "tighten up" after people are used to a a liberal policy for a period of time.

Here is the thing:  If she shows up, spends lots of time with Mom, no drama...FF wouldn't grump about the trust paying for everyone.

Best,

FF

[Notwendy]

Reading this gets my guard up.

What this looks like is "pushing the boundaries in increments" getting you to agree to one thing then adding  more, one at a time. Each step is something that pushes your boundary in a small way, but it's still something she can persuade you to do. Had she called to say the whole family was coming and it would be paid by the trust, she knows she probably could not get you to agree to it. "Frog in the pot" while slowly tuning up the heat works better for her.

I don't believe she's done yet.

With my BPD mom, there's always an agenda, and it's not one I am aware of as she isn't straightforward with what she wants, she just works up to it in small manipulative increments. If I object at any point she goes straight into victim mode " you won't ever do anything I ask and it's this one little thing" ( not really, it's a succession of many little things that add up to something I would not agree to) and by that time I am so far into her plan, saying no becomes a "big horrible" no.

One agenda may be the jealousy and evening out the score by using the trust for mom as what she's entitled to as it's so unfair that you are a doctor and she's not. In her mind, she's entitled to making things into what she might see as "fair".  Yes, it's true you studied and worked hard and still do to be where you are,  -giving up doing other things-  and had big school bills to pay, but from victim perspective, she's not going to see it that way. She doesn't see this as taking something that isn't hers. To her it's getting her fair share of what you don't need anyway.

I am sure from your perspective that you know the world needs everyone-  people with different skills do important things that we need,  and don't see things her way. You have probably not acted at all like she might think,  but with black and white thinking she may see this differently.

Keep in mind it is not up to you to fix her distorted thinking or diminish yourself for her comfort, or let her take advantage of you because of how she feels. We can not control what anyone else is thinking or feeling.

Your problem now is you are in the pot and the water is getting a bit warmer. At this point, it's about damage control and picking your battles. The expenses for her family trip will probably be more than you expected. Protesting now will likely become a huge battle that you probably don't want to fight. Think of this as a learning experience for you to see how she behaves. It will be good for your mother to see her, and her grandchild if your mother's dementia is getting worse, it's best the visit is sooner.

Once the visit is over, I think the next step is to make arrangements to protect the trust. I would consult a lawyer on this and come up with a clear plan about what is allowed for spending, and how much. This way the rules are clear.

Best wishes and keep your guard up.

[Methuen]

I really connected with every word from NotWendy.  I don't think I could have articulated it that well.  Everytime you agree and say yes to a "little ask", she pushes for a little more.  See how much crazier the big picture appears (H and S and sis coming for 4 nights and getting the Trust to pay for it), rather than all the "little" asks which are spread out over time?

-Based on what she has “told me” she is only here for 4 days/3 nights, she has asked for payment for  hotel for 4 nights. /Might be an honest discrepancy but ... not planning to pay until there are receipts and they aren’t from a resort in another city!

 So, to compare to my H's story, and his father who moved in with his daughter (my H's sister) and who used her position as joint POA to earn $4000/mo despite a much earlier family meeting agreeing on $1200, and who also financed a home reno based on FIL moving in with her...  These were all little asks too, but in the end, she financed her desired lifestyle as a POA.  While the home reno at SIL's was happening shortly after FIL became a widower, he lived with us for 2 months.  As the renovations started, she wanted carte blance cheques, and was incensed that her father and H asked for receipts before releasing funds for the reno. Holy that got nasty.  She would send receipts every morning as my H was leaving for work, always saying that she needed the money transfer immediately for the contractor.  When H would ask her to send the receipts with "reasonable notice" (not as he was leaving for work), her behavior never changed.  It escalated. No one could have anticipated her behaviors.  Her goal was to get what she wanted, and frustrate my H in the process.  FIL was defenseless with his personality, and yet undiagnosed dementia.  While the story is different, the strategies used sound exactly the same.  Where the story with my H, FIL and SIL ended up after 7 years of FIL living with SIL, was completely different than the place from where they began (what FIL's intents with money were, and what he thought it would be like to live with his D).  In that way, it perfectly mirrors NotWendy's analogy of the frog getting slowly boiled in the water.  By the time my H (who is caring and always wants to do what is right for everybody while avoiding conflict) saw what was really happening, he was already boiled in the pot, and it was too late for him to go back on some earlier agreements (which seemed reasonable at the time). Case in point - your sis getting the Trust to pay for this trip.  Sorry it took me so long to get to that point.  

Again, my SIL used to ask for gas money to go visit her palliative mother, as she was failing in health.  Really?  Who does that?    Your sister is starting out similarly, and after every ask, comes another ask, which always benefits her.  Exact same pattern.

Like NotWendy says, I don't believe she's done either.  It didn't "end" with my SIL until my FIL died (8 years).

Getting back to receipts, after 8 years, H still has every receipt and financial record kept from that renovation.  He also printed off monthly online bank statements before FIL's account was frozen (after his passing).  It's all organized in a 1 1/2 " binder.  I would suggest not going the route my husband went (anything to avoid conflict) but taking what is helpful from his experience, and using it to protect yourself from the shifting quicksand that can't be seen until you are already in it. There is no way a healthy person could anticipate all the actions of a distorted thinker before they happen.  They are incredibly creative.  If my SIL was planning this BD-party, she would also try to get the Trust to pay for all visible and invisible expenses.  

This trip sets precedent.  Will this trip be a "one off" (re: Trust paying for the trip)? Or...what are the boundaries?  What is the logic either way?  Who benefits?

Don't get boiled in the pot slowly.  NotWendy absolutely nailed it.

I agree that the distorted thinking sibling is driven in part by jealousy.  It all goes back to FOO.

I also concur that staying calm around her is necessary.  She is going to frustrate you.  If you stay curious, don't react, keep composure, and always take your time to respond, it will help you navigate this, and she in turn will be the frustrated one, because she's not getting the emotional reaction out of you.  Keep your guard up.  With a whole lot of good fortune, all this "thinking" turns out to be unnecessary worry, but there are a heck of a lot of red flags to consider.

[zachira]

I don't believe your sister is done either, and she is testing you to see what she can get away with in the future. In my experience with a sister somewhat similar to yours, there will be no limits to your sister's unreasonable demands no matter what you do unless the appropriate legal safe guards are in place. I do think that getting some limits set on how the trust funds can be used now does make a lot of sense considering past behaviors predict future behaviors, and with these types of people the behaviors just get worse and any improvements in behaviors are temporary, for the explicit purpose of being able to manipulate situations in the near future.

[formflier]

Please tell me that no money has already been sent?

Part of the benefit of "reimbursing" expenses is that you get to see what they are "really" asking for and it gives you the opportunity to play the same game...moving boundaries by inches...or miles.

And...before you do anything with money, touch base with your estate/trust attorney.

For instance...one thing I might recommend is agreeing to pay all the expenses and letting her know that you will send out the check, just as soon as you receive a lawyer approved covenant not to sue and/or perhaps a signed agreement that there will be NO more trip reimbursements.

Giving in to these demands without it "costing" her anything is likely THE WORST path possible.

But again...see what the trip is really about first.

Best,

FF

[Mommydoc]

Thanks everyone.  I have not sent any money, and don’t plan to until I get a receipt.  I texted her this morning re photo:
 “ That is a thoughtful present if we can figure out logistics. Let me know your schedule, as we are working  Wed/Th/Friday.  Yes, daughter could be photoshopped  in if photographer composes photo correctly with that in mind. Please send me your receipt  for flights so I can get the first check to you.”  I am signaling that I will only pay with receipts and as I receive them. My husband and I agreed we will make ourselves available Saturday morning before she leaves for photo, and let her find a photographer, the photoshopping, printing, etc for this special gift. 

   If she shows up, spends lots of time with Mom, no drama...FF wouldn't grump about the trust paying for everyone.

I completely agree.  We will have to see what the trip is really about.     

I appreciate the need to set boundaries with her for future trips and using the trust attorney to guide will be helpful to set up a fair process.  She is a co-trustee, so if she wanted to she could write a check to herself.  She has never asked for checks ( I sent her a box when account was opened, but I feel certain she doesn’t remember or still have them). 

She doesn't see this as taking something that isn't hers. To her it's getting her fair share of what you don't need anyway.

Notwendy, that is so true.  I have talked with a few friends who have relatives with similar “ entitlement” to trust funds that don’t seem right. 

She is definitely boiling the frog... I laughed out loud when I saw the “ I forgot to tell you...” re husband coming.  I don’t know what to expect other than “ more of the same”. 

So much for low contact, I received 15 separate texts from her over the course of today. Ready  for next  ...” airline overcharged her and they are going to cancel her flight if she doesn’t pay”...  I was pretty busy so I replied to every 4th or 5th one, pretty cryptic, liking or “!” , “ call your credit card company”.    Cost was now up to $2K just for the airfare for her and her son... No worries, even with a receipt I am not going to pay that... By the last text, she said she thought she had worked out the overpayment issue, so maybe that is over.

[formflier]

That is worrisome that she could write a check and access funds.

Does the trust have rules and guidelines that have to be followed.

With this in mind, consider paying (with receipts) for updated trust rules signed off by both of you.

Again..trust attorney should guide you.  Not a time to "go cheap" on attorneys. 

Best,

FF

[Notwendy]

I am not a lawyer so I am not sure how this would be done ( but I think it can be) but I think it would be wise to set up a neutral, non family member, lawyer in charge of the trust and who would delegate what expenses are to be reimbursed. Both you and your sister would have to go through this person for approval.

You two are both relying on goodwill and common sense restraints. I think one issue nons have is that since we "wouldn't do something like this" our family members would also have the same thinking.

No, the "rules" are not the same.

Also, the emotional baggage between the two of you makes it difficult for you to enforce any common sense rules about the trust.

It needs to be someone not emotionally involved or related so as to not be emotionally vulnerable to your sister's manipulations and accusations.

In a somewhat similar situation, when my father got sick, I wanted some input to the family finances as I did not trust my BPD mother to manage them if he was unable to do that. My mother spends carelessly. I didn't know much about BPD dynamics at the time, and the reaction from my mother was that she complained to others that I was "forcing her to get access to their money". Knowing that this could lead to unfounded accusations I told my father to get a legal adviser or accountant to do this. Although it's common for adult children to take on these tasks for parents who need assistance with this, this was not possible to do in this situation.

Your sister is not thinking rationally and so communicating with her rationally will not work. Your very relationship with her is an emotional trigger. It will lead her to make decisions in her favor to sooth her feelings but this can endanger the trust funds.

[Naughty Nibbler]

Mommydoc:

You are co-trustees, so you are likely stuck with the checking account situation. If your sister forgets that she has checks and can endorse one by herself, well that's a favorable situation.

Unless you sister is flying to your state for trust business, the trust usually doesn't pay for it (unless you want to consider it trust business). If you decide the trust will pay, I would think the trust would only pay for limited things for her & not her husband & son. The longer you can keep her at bay, the better for you, but if you set a precedent, she may expect to ding the trust funds every time she visits. Got to decide what hill you want to die on.

I suspect a lot may depend on your mom's assets and the dollar amount that would pass to your sister.  If you mom doesn't have long-term care insurance and ongoing care will deplete assets, the trust value may not be worth much, by the time your mom passes.  It's a hard situation, that I think most people have to step into.  At some point, most people have to start liquidating trust assets to pay for care 

Handing the trust over to a paid trust administrator, at this time, is likely to require court action, if you sister/co-trustee doesn't agree.  I'm thinking your sister won't want to do that, especially if she is not as financially secure as you are.  She might want to preserve what she could inherit.

You can charge the trust, for your personal administration time.  Even if you don't choose to do that, at this time, it would be wise to keep an accounting of dates & amount of time spent.  It could become a negotiation point down the road. Maybe you make a point that to date, the personal time you have contributed to trust business & health administration for your mom is equivalent to a certain dollar amount.  Then, perhaps have a discussion about  the travel, lodging, etc. that you sister wants to ding the trust for & compare it with your contribution.  You may decide to not use this logic now, but it's something to consider in the future, when your sister plans her subsequent trips.

My sister and I were co-trustees.  We set up the trust checking account to require both signatures.  I am so glad we did that, as there were problems after our mom passed & we got close to dissolving the trust.  My sister was impatient and too eager to grab 50% of the money immediately, prior to settling final bills, taxes, etc.  Amazingly, with her anger and vindictiveness, she cost herself thousands of dollars in lawyer fees (to no avail) and added a year's time to getting her remaining portion of the trust.