Any tips on dealing with the ex gaslighting a 12yo?

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

Hey everyone,

I've been here for a few years.  Some might remember part of my story (she left in handcuffs on Christmas eve after threatening suicide, assaulted me at my workplace, abusive emails towards the kids, no visits for a year because I requested supervision and she refused, ..), the kids have began seeing their mom a few months ago without supervision, now twice a week.  Kids are now 12 (ended up with an attachment disorder) and 16. 

While the visits are pretty good overall according to the kids (and I've always offered more time there if they wanted), the summer fast approaching means that their mom is on the hunt for more parental time with the goal of obtaining 50-50 within a few months (or weeks..) so you can see where this is going...   

She has no limited in terms of what she tells the kids (info comes from oldest who's super worried about youngest):
- Keeps blaming me for everything (ie: "I wasn't allowed to see you because of your father" while in reality she "refused" to find someone to supervise because she did not agree with supervision
- Tells them "your father hates me" which isn't true and I've never said anything like that. I'm well passed the anger phase, which I never really had
- Tells my youngest one that "You have an attachment disorder because of your dad!" (which as you can guess is caused by the BPD parend..)
- "I cannot live without you" (reminds me of her suicide threats if I left)
- Refuses to believe my oldest when she asks for examples of this or that (about her behavior) and he provides examples, but ends up with excuses such as  "it's not true, it was because of your father, he kept sending me messages to upset me"

My oldest is super stressed with this but has a good understanding of the situation.  He had to grow up pretty quick because he was the scapegoat and got his fair share of nasty emails from the mom. 

My youngest one however is getting seriously confused by the blame, accusations and gaslighting.

Would any of you have any tips to help with that?   
- Remind him of the events that lead to that?  I'm not sure I want him to relive them.. his brain must have forgotten some to protect him
- Keep re-iterating the fact that he can have more time with his mom if he wants to?  I don't want to be pushy, and at the same time the child psychologist told me to "take it slow with the contacts with the mom because it takes years to build good emotional control when you have an insecure attachment issue"
-  I could certainly show them their mom's probation order and all the criminal charges on it and say something like "see, I'm not the bad parent" but that seems inappropriate, although the kids were with her when she was hurling the death threats and she blamed me for having her arrested (assaulting me at my workplace), and blamed the kids when she breached her conditions. 

I'm definitely not sure how to navigate out of this one, and my youngest is fed up of therapy and is old enough to refuse therapy which further complicates things. 


Thanks!

[mart555]

Hey everyone,

I've been here for a few years.  Some might remember part of my story (she left in handcuffs on Christmas eve after threatening suicide, assaulted me at my workplace, abusive emails towards the kids, no visits for a year because I requested supervision and she refused, ..), the kids have began seeing their mom a few months ago without supervision, now twice a week.  Kids are now 12 (ended up with an attachment disorder) and 16. 

While the visits are pretty good overall according to the kids (and I've always offered more time there if they wanted), the summer fast approaching means that their mom is on the hunt for more parental time with the goal of obtaining 50-50 within a few months (or weeks..) so you can see where this is going...   

She has no limited in terms of what she tells the kids (info comes from oldest who's super worried about youngest):
- Keeps blaming me for everything (ie: "I wasn't allowed to see you because of your father" while in reality she "refused" to find someone to supervise because she did not agree with supervision
- Tells them "your father hates me" which isn't true and I've never said anything like that. I'm well passed the anger phase, which I never really had
- Tells my youngest one that "You have an attachment disorder because of your dad!" (which as you can guess is caused by the BPD parend..)
- "I cannot live without you" (reminds me of her suicide threats if I left)
- Refuses to believe my oldest when she asks for examples of this or that (about her behavior) and he provides examples, but ends up with excuses such as  "it's not true, it was because of your father, he kept sending me messages to upset me"

My oldest is super stressed with this but has a good understanding of the situation.  He had to grow up pretty quick because he was the scapegoat and got his fair share of nasty emails from the mom. 

My youngest one however is getting seriously confused by the blame, accusations and gaslighting.

Would any of you have any tips to help with that?   
- Remind him of the events that lead to that?  I'm not sure I want him to relive them.. his brain must have forgotten some to protect him
- Keep re-iterating the fact that he can have more time with his mom if he wants to?  I don't want to be pushy, and at the same time the child psychologist told me to "take it slow with the contacts with the mom because it takes years to build good emotional control when you have an insecure attachment issue"
-  I could certainly show them their mom's probation order and all the criminal charges on it and say something like "see, I'm not the bad parent" but that seems inappropriate, although the kids were with her when she was hurling the death threats and she blamed me for having her arrested (assaulting me at my workplace), and blamed the kids when she breached her conditions. 

I'm definitely not sure how to navigate out of this one, and my youngest is fed up of therapy and is old enough to refuse therapy which further complicates things. 


Thanks!

[worriedStepmom]

She's continuing to emotionally abuse them.  These are very similar things to what she said to them in the past, right?  It's similar to the stuff that really messed up my SD and led us to a greatly diminished schedule for her to see mom.

Why does your ex have unsupervised visitation right now?   Do you think giving her more time is really a good idea if she's going to continue emotionally manipulating and abusing the kids?

[mart555]

She's continuing to emotionally abuse them.  These are very similar things to what she said to them in the past, right?  It's similar to the stuff that really messed up my SD and led us to a greatly diminished schedule for her to see mom.

Why does your ex have unsupervised visitation right now?   Do you think giving her more time is really a good idea if she's going to continue emotionally manipulating and abusing the kids?

Oh believe me, I am totally in disagreement with extending parenting time however she disagrees with me  .  And yes, it's the same stuff that was said in the past but "She's done the DBT course a few times and has weekly therapy so she is much better" is what she says.  Maybe I'll have to go back to supervised visits, it's just that both kids had said "nah, we don't really need supervision anymore" a few months ago but I guess that things have changed... 

On the bright side my oldest is almost 17 and wow, so much more self confidence now.  So a supervisor seems a bit "weird" when kids are older and honestly I found the supervisor to be a bit of an enabler..  she would send short emails to my oldest one telling him to do something (ie: "it sure would be nice if you brought your mom flowers for her birthday", "your mom misses you, you should write to her").  She was basically trying to defuse the ex.. 

But you are correct, this is emotional abuse.  I need to act, but my only thought at this point is to train my youngest one because no matter what I do, she'll always attempt something.

[worriedStepmom]

I need to act, but my only thought at this point is to train my youngest one because no matter what I do, she'll always attempt something.

Yes, she will.  Sometimes it is easier to "train" the kids when they aren't in the thick of the abuse.

I think for the types of comments your kid is hearing, validation is really all you can do.  "Wow, mom says it's all my fault?  How does it make you feel when she says that?"  Keep digging into the emotions until they've all come out.  It's more important to deal with those right now than the facts.

Throwing facts at a kid is really asking them to choose which parent to believe.  It's a loyalty bind, and that's hard.

[ForeverDad]

Do the kids have counseling, especially the youngest?  That would be very helpful for hearing emotionally-neutral guidance from neither dad nor mom.

[mart555]

I had a good chat with the kids last night.  I kept it light, and I really liked the dynamic between the kids at some point where one would question the other to confirm their "sanity", ie "Mom said <this>, but we never did that!", and the young one would say "Yes! I know! Why would she make that up?".  I'm hoping that this opened up a bit more communication between them.  They both want to keep seeing their mom, without supervision, but they bluntly said they don't want to expand for now "because she'll want more and more time and will accelerate too fast".  They both seem to understand that their mom isn't all there (lots of gaslighting) and the only thing I made clear was that when the visits stopped, it wasn't because of me.  I consider it a success, but will need to do frequent reinforcement with the youngest just to be sure that he doesn't steer in the wrong direction due to his empathy. 

I think for the types of comments your kid is hearing, validation is really all you can do. 

Thanks for that reminder.  I will definitely focus on this.

Do the kids have counseling, especially the youngest? 

They used to but don't want counseling anymore but I offer it frequently.  I guess that teenagers want to process it themselves..  but I'll keep offering. 

On a related note: My youngest one did lots of talk therapy (CBT approach?) for his emotional control and that didn't help much, only time helped.  Why it didn't help was explained to be by someone at the mental health dept of the local kids hospital (when I was consulting for his suicidal ideation) and I was told that behavior isn't surprising, the root cause is an attachment issue with his mom (insecure attachment with a BPD mom) and for this, CBT will not help. It's not the right form of therapy.  He needs a DDP therapy and they told me that it's something that takes time and that you pretty much do every day at home in how you interact with the child.  Basically, he needed to learn co-regulation of emotions before being able to learn self-regulation.  Wow was that therapist ever right.  She also told me that it would take years, and to make sure that I have him live with me until he's past 20 and not throw him in the world.   I must have seen 15+ doctors, specialists, therapists, social workers, .. she was the only one that truly understood the situation (past, present and future), I'm still thankful to have been able to meet with her.  And she was right all along, I can really see progress.


What a summer this will be.  I think that I'm in for an extinction burst from their mom. It won't be pretty.

[I Am Redeemed]

Talk therapy doesn't help with attachment issues in children because the formation of the attachment issue happens before a child develops verbal skills.

Have you looked into DDP therapy? This type of therapy directly involves the parents or caregivers. It's an experiential approach that teaches the parent how to co-regulate with the child, which leads to better self-regulation skills.

If you and your son do therapy together, it might be more palatable for him than "counseling" was.

[mart555]

Time for an update..   Wow do younger kids ever forget fast. 

He went from "I don't like being alone with mom because she keeps pressuring me" (when his older brother goes to the washroom) to "I'd like to visit more and more so that I can live there half the time" within a 2 weeks span.   I can really see that his mom is pressuring him / manipulating him for more parenting time based on the tone of the messages she sends me (accusing me of parental alienation) and the way he says it.  He's also feeling guilty that he's not spending more time with her (she told them that she couldn't live without them). 

I'll slow things down the best I can to be sure that it's a nice progression (I can see his hesitation, and he said that he wants it and doesn't want it at the same time) but it really was a shock to see how fast he turned and the amount of damage control I'll have to do.    Things were going quite well for the kids, they'd see their mom twice a week for short visits and they were thriving.  So of course the mom wasn't pleased with that, she wants more and more of her golden child narcissistic supply.    The scapegoat child doesn't want to expand however. 

I also realized that I never replied to IAmRedeemed about DDP:
- Yes, it was recommended by a clinician from the mental health dept at the local kid's hospital.  That clinician was great and really gave me a good understanding of what I was facing and explained the co-regulation leading to self regulation and how all of this takes time. DDP could help, but she was blunt and said "you have a good relationship with your son and the household is stable, it will take years to fix that and you can't rush it. Look into DDP and apply that every day at home, there's no shortcuts"