Help with possible alienating behavior

[zaqsert]

I've pretty much always had an excellent relationship with D11. Sure, she's gotten angry about things here and there, and I've gotten annoyed, but it has been healthy and excellent.

Recent background

Almost 2 weeks ago on Monday, my uBPDw (D11's mom) snapped at D for taking too long getting ready for school. W berated D. I quietly signed to W to let it go at the moment because D had to finish getting ready for school. Then W snapped at me for "never" having her back. For the next two days, D looked subdued and unhappy, and she generally avoided W.

On Tuesday, I gave D the usual reminder that it's time for her to start getting ready for school. Two minutes after that, I saw a text from W telling me not to say anything to D, and that D needs to learn or fail on her own. Then she followed up with an angry text asking me to tell her if I was going to disregard what she's doing. I replied that I had given D a time check just before I saw her first text. W blew up at me.

That evening she told me D is all my responsibility, W is out. So I started to/from school planning with our friends' parents who we typically trade with. W came out of our bedroom and asked D why D doesn't care about her, in a very accusatory tone. Every time this has happened in the past, it really hurts D because it could not be farther from the truth. I asked D, "Do you care about W?" Of course D responds with "Yes." And W says that's not true.

W kept going, so I asked her to stop. She kept going, so this time I got angry, told her she's causing damage to D, and this has to stop. I said "Look at how D is now on the floor, crying. This has to stop now." W said she does't care, and soon after stormed off.

W sent me a string of raging texts. Then she sent one to both D and me saying she's leaving. I told her to leave D out of it. She agreed, but kept raging at me. I ignored most of them, other than to set basic records straight in case they ever come up as evidence and to respond to things I had to regarding D.

On Wednesday we barely communicated or saw each other. In the afternoon, W texted asking me if she should go to a hotel. When I realized she seemed to be asking me to decide, I told her it's her decision, but I'm happy to talk if it might help.

We did talk, but it was largely circular. I did my best not to engage. She raged about how D doesn't give a crap about W — still not at all true, but this is one of her go-to stories, along with the one that I don't care about her at all (or something similar).

Thinking D deserves to be heard, I said to W that if she were to listen to D, really listen and not argue, she'll hear how much D does care. W agreed. I relayed to D that W wants to talk. W asked why D had been avoiding W. D (good for her) said in her own words that W's behavior is scary after she "blows up" at her. When W started to argue, I stepped in to pause the conversation. Maybe a few too many times. Finally W asked me to let them talk alone and D agreed. I left them. And they seemed to settle things out pretty well.

Going back to the talk W and I had, in that talk she said she planned to stay together until D goes to college, and then we'd probably divorce. This set off a whole other set of things because we happen to be in the process of estate planning.

On Sunday, I asked W if she was going back to doing parenting things for D. But the moment I specified for example "getting her to/from school" or "packing lunch", W blew up at me and accused me of belittling her. D happened to be coming in and out of our room at this point. I did my best to get us to pause the discussion when D was nearby. In the end, W kept going off, I apologized and stepped out.

Alienation concern

Not too long after that, D and I had dinner together. W has been skipping many meals with us, and skipping meals in general.

By the end of dinner, D was acting unusually. At the end of dinner, I asked her what's going on. She now seemed angry and didn't want to talk about it. I mentioned it again that night. Now clearly angry at me and not wanting to talk about it.

I brought it up again the following day, Monday. She said she doesn't know how to explain it.

Things between us have been back to normal in some regards, but there still seems to be something lingering in the air. For example, she rarely avoids hugs, but now she has been avoiding them more often than usual. And she particularly avoids them at times when W is right there too. Not always, but far more than usual.

Talking with W this morning, W said that on that last Sunday D said to her "I'm sorry [dad] makes you feel so bad."

I don't know what in the world W said or did, but I can't help but feel that W has somehow gotten D to believe something bad and untrue. And I'm feeling very worried that W may be setting up D for alienation. Or worse, actively starting to and succeeding.

I expect it's only a matter of time before W blows up at D again. But regardless of any of that, I don't ever want to lose D.

Meanwhile, I'm continuing to strike out on therapists. So far they're all full and not taking new patients. At least W is onboard with getting one for family therapy.

[zaqsert]

Coming back to add a few more things.

In the past week plus that W and D have been back on good terms, D keeps going in to check on W (for a long time now, W has spent a lot of time in bed for one reason or another). They've been spending quite a bit of time watching TV (W typically watches hours of TV each day and night).

Yesterday, D came home from school very upset about a group project. She did a ton of work on it, and a couple others haven't been putting in the effort. She didn't want to talk about it at first. At some point she and W discussed shortening it so it would be easier for the others to do their part. D and W spent a long while watching TV again.

When it was time for bed, D was suddenly upset again, and said she absolutely had to stay up to work on the project. I said it's time for bed, how about in the morning. She blew up similarly to how W does. At first, she said she felt like she was probably the only one who really cared about the project. Quickly it shifted to that I don't care either (because I had first said it's bedtime), so she is the only one who cares. So much of this seemed like a reenactment of what she's seen W do yet again recently.

W got up out of bed when she heard D yelling. Pretty soon, W suggested D stay up for 30 minutes to work in it, then go to bed. D agreed, although still incredibly worked up.

The 30 minutes stretched out just a bit longer, but she did complete what she wanted to.

Then when D was about to go to bed, she stopped by to give W a hug and tell her she was done. I overheard D saying to W, "Thanks for caring more than [dad] seemed to care." That really got to me. I walked in and said please stop because I do care, a lot, so that hurts. D said she was talking about her feelings. I said I understand, but she has to be careful with how her statements make suggestions or even accusations. W actually stuck up for me, saying to D that I was probably also concerned with D getting a decent night sleep.

I'm reading through Divorce Poison right now, really wanting to figure out how to do the right thing by D and keep our relationship as strong and great as it has always been.

[ForeverDad]

I'm not sure what to suggest... but my impression is that you're trying to do a lot of fixing.  In dysfunctional scenarios being a peacemaker can easily backfire.  (Even in normal times with reasonably normal people peacemaking may not succeed.)

Keep working on a counselor.  While school counselors may not be able to do much with family situations, it'll probably be better than nothing in the meantime.

[zaqsert]

Thanks, ForeverDad. It's a really good reminder that I need to stop trying to peacemake. Will also keep working on getting a counselor.

[zaqsert]

Update: Over the past couple of days, D11 is getting back to acting normally around me and being much more of her usual self.

I'm hoping that by continuing to be as stable a dad as I can with her, things will continue to return to normal when not-so-good things happen at home.

Meanwhile, I'm continuing to read through Divorce Poison and Splitting. And I'll have one, possibly two consults with lawyers next week.

I also called a few more therapists today and got more referrals for local ones. 15 down so far, and now back up to 7 remaining to connect with and see if they're open to new patients, before I hopefully get to pick one to work with for family therapy.

[GaGrl]

You are doing several things very right.

Therapist for family therapy.
Lawyer consults.
Reading Divorce Poison.
Staying steady, caring, and holding boundaries that protect you and your D.

Your D's project may be finished now, so you can debrief with her about the experience. She's going to be on many, many project teams throughout school and into the workplace, and there will usually be team members who don't pull their weight. Maybe some work on being assertive about expectations when people aren't doing their part?

[zaqsert]

Thank you, GaGrl.

Great point. We talked about the project experience a bit. It should be over soon after Thanksgiving, so I'll make a point of debriefing on the experience with D.

[formflier]

Hey...I would encourage you to consider more of a "I'm sorry...I will be available to discuss this at (give time a few hours away) and then move on.

It appears to me that you efforts to "fix" or "help" the situation are adding fuel to "something".

So...what do you think this is "really" about?  Kids mess up timelines all the time (like S12 who I let fix missing the bus this morning...he called his Papaaw and got a ride).

I mean..that's what they do.


Said another way (no coffee yet...)  Since it's not likely actually about D, what do you think it is about (from her point of view)

Best,

FF

[zaqsert]

Thanks, FF. Good advice and reminder to disengage and not try to discuss things in the moment.

From W's point of view, from what she says, it seems to be that we "don't listen" to her and therefore don't care about her. Often enough she'll say that D11 listens to me but not to W — not true from my perspective, but that seems to be what W believes. W also blames me for D not respecting W — D does respect W, but W is the one who keeps doing things to D that push her away on a pretty regular basis.

From my point of view:

• When W is in one of those "moods" she seems to treat D11 as if D were far older. It just doesn't seem age appropriate.
• W often seems to latch onto ways in which one of us has wronged her (didn't "listen" to her advice, did things our own way, etc.). Then she brings it up as "proof" that we don't care, don't respect her, etc.
• At times when W is feeling down, it seems she finds ways to put down D11 or me. Going on about how D "always" or "never" does something, how it shows a "total lack of responsibility" or is "disrespectful". Some of the times when these apparent expectations were aimed at me, I was supposed to have figured them out, regardless of the fact that no one can or should be expected to try to mind-read.
• I've seen quite a bit of projection coming from W. The projection often gives me a window into what may be going on in W's mind. Others here have said this about relationships with their pwBPD too.

Regardless of the stark difference between W's and my perspectives, I have to keep reminding myself that I can't "fix" W and I can't keep trying to "fix" W's relationship with our D.

[zaqsert]

I'm not sure what to suggest... but my impression is that you're trying to do a lot of fixing.  In dysfunctional scenarios being a peacemaker can easily backfire.  (Even in normal times with reasonably normal people peacemaking may not succeed.)

Keep working on a counselor.  While school counselors may not be able to do much with family situations, it'll probably be better than nothing in the meantime.

Perhaps I'm finally learning. My uBPDw blew up again over the holidays. Now we're all painted black — our D11, me, my family of origin. This time I've resisted the old urge to try to fix things.

I did step in early in the blow-up to protect D. W accused D of doing or not doing things that were not true. I tried a sort of quick SET, briefly acknowledging the feeling and then pointing out the truth of what D did or did not do.

It's been more than a week, and not much of a change from W. Our D has been steering clear of W as much as she can.

I finally did find someone near us for family therapy. The therapist seems good. We have a follow-up session with her this weekend. Fingers crossed that this sticks. I also had a couple of sessions with my therapist. They've been helpful.

Once I have family therapy in place to help our D, I think I'll feel more prepared to figure out the next steps on divorce. Well, first steps really, beyond the initial consults. Seeing how out of touch W is with reality has helped me to let go some more.