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Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits. Practicing lawyer, Senior Family Mediator, and former Licensed Clinical Social Worker with twelve years’ experience and an expert on navigating the Family Court process.
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Author Topic: Need advice on communication and co-parenting w/ exBPD  (Read 991 times)
BKDamon

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« on: December 18, 2021, 10:18:48 AM »

Hi everyone,

So, I left my exBPD with whom I have three kids (5, 8 and 11) in March after discovering that she was having an affair, again...
I was devastated and her behavior since the break-up has been so disappointing that communicating with her has been really tough.

I can’t go no contact because of the kids, but it’s really difficult to be reminded everyday of her existence. I checked rapidly, and in the last 30 days I have received 6 phone calls, almost 30 emails and about a hundred text messages.

Of course, I don’t respond to all of them. I usually write about one email per week. I try to be BIFF but she is still triggered by the fact that I disagree with her. Is that normal? Is there anyway to do better? I can’t really be friendly to her, but at least I try not be accusative and stay factual. Is that enough?

It’s hard for me to find the right balance. I usually start by writing a draft that a sensible person would understand, writing about my feelings and explaining why some of her requests are absurd or insensitive. And then I edit all that down to a rather clinical business-like email.

I apologized two days ago for the coldness of my email, and oh boy, was I wrong to do so. She wrote a long and disorganized reply at 5 am, with clearly manipulative sentences, and an overly open and friendly tone. She said that she only asks for money because she can’t afford to buy clothes for the kids (she’s a physician with her own practice...), that we need to learn to communicate in a less "traumatizing" way, that she’s angry at me but manages to put it aside for our kids’ sake, that she hopes that our separation will help us to learn to work together, that she tries to use communication techniques that our couple therapist taught us, that she is tired of putting a lot of thoughts and efforts to avoid hurting me with her messages, that I only get frustrated because her demands aren’t in my favor, that I have to stop changing our agreements about custody all the time... She ends the message by thanking me for teaching her how to settle down and enjoy spending time with the kids.

The thing is, I DON’T KNOW WHAT SHE’S TALKING ABOUT! Our couple therapist never taught us communication techniques, we worked on setting up boundaries... My messages are usually just answers to her (valid) requests plus, now and then, a polite reminder that we agreed to communicate only by mail and only once a week, and that we’re still far from this target. So I don’t understand why she would be mad at me or "traumatized" in any way! And I never taught her anything about settling down and spending quality time with the kids (I wish I did!).

I was confused and showed the message to a friend who said it was like she was absorbing or appropriating my thoughts and actions and projecting hers onto me: I do take a lot of time and effort in replying to her messages, I do get angry at her abusive requests, but SHE gets mad because I don’t always answer in her favor. And I have never changed anything about our agreement since March, she did multiple times! And I was the one who was traumatized and had to go to multiple therapists. This is insane.

While writing this post, I just read two other emails from her, again sent in the early morning. She wrote that, ultimately, I had what I wanted (some alone time that she didn’t allow me to have when we were together) so I should be happy...
She wrote that she knows that I feel that I have been « wronged » at the end of our relationship, but that she felt that she’s been wronged herself but on a different time scale, so it is the same. This is infuriating. I spent 15 years trying to give her what she wanted, with all my love, time, trust, attention, money. I wasn’t perfect, but I never cheated on, lied to and manipulated her, I never smashed things out of anger, I never insulted her or hit her or did any of the crazy and abusive things that I had to endure all those years!

So, my questions are: what do I respond to? Should I remind her that betraying and manipulating are just unacceptable for me, and that I’d rather never speak to her again?
I sometimes just want her to understand that because of what she did to me, interacting with her is unpleasant to say the least, and that if she cares about me as she says, she would just leave me alone, that it’s the right thing to do.
Could she understand that?

And I just don’t think I can cope with co-parenting. Am I over-reacting? Is it bad for the kids? I mean, if co-parenting with her means receiving on average one email per day and 100 texts a month, I don’t think I can manage. I’d rather stick to parallel parenting. I need to heal and stay away from her and her manipulations. It really gets to me, she can still make me feel guilty.

I hope my post makes sense, I’m being a little emotional. Thanks a lot in advance for your advice!
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ForeverDad
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« Reply #1 on: December 18, 2021, 01:54:46 PM »

You are essentially doing it correctly.
  • Respond to only the important matters, primarily about parenting issues, exchanges and related details.
  • Accept that anything more just exposes you to — and tends to enable — more negative engagement.
  • Thinking that allowing expanded contact will help with closure is nonproductive.  Closure for us typically is what we Gift ourselves, you won't get it from pwBPD.
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« Reply #2 on: December 18, 2021, 03:57:12 PM »

If the court order specifies email only contact, once a week yet she is not following that -- you can still follow the order. It might mean six days of emails and texts go unanswered, but that may be what it takes for her to understand and comply.

Parallel parenting may be the way to go.
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« Reply #3 on: December 21, 2021, 02:53:03 PM »

I agree with GaGrl, consider parallel parenting.  It's how my fiancé had to go.  There is no "working" with him.  It's his way or the highway.  Sad. 

For us, we had to go to court to enforce email only communications between the parents for non-emergency communications.  Text may be used for emergencies and time critical issues like being late to a custody exchange.  So far, it's holding but it's only been 45 days since the court date.

My GF also runs her email responses back to her ex through her mother as a BIFF review cycle.  Is there someone who can help QC for BIFF in your responses?  Becoming BIFF literate is an art for sure.   

In another thread in here, one person used someone else (good friend or mother...cannot remember the details) to read the disordered ex spouse emails and filter them down to the ones that required responses.  Is there someone you can use to act as a first pass filter to extract what you should respond to? 

Good luck and please keep us informed on how things are going.  CoMo

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BKDamon

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« Reply #4 on: December 23, 2021, 07:46:33 AM »

Thank you all for your replies,

ForeverDad, it was really useful for me to be reminded that wanting her to understand that she should leave me alone is indeed a form of asking for closure, which I know pwBPD can’t offer.
I’ll stick to replying only to parental issues and only at most once a week, following ForeverDad’s and GaGrl’s advice.

No court order has been issued yet, btw: we weren’t married and where we live, it is not mandatory in that case. And I thought we could settle it like grown-ups. Our lawyers are currently working on an agreement. Her demands are excessive, and it’s also "my way or the highway". I hope it will pass once the court order is issued. If it doesn’t, I’ll go with parallel parenting for the long run.

CoMo: I sometimes ask my GF to check if my emails are clear and non-accusative, but our relationship is pretty new, and I don’t want to bother her too much with all that. I could ask my mother, but her opinion is usually that I should demonstrate to my ex just how ridiculous her requests are. I don’t think she is ready for BIFF.

Anyways, thanks so much again and I’ll keep you informed on how things go!
BKD


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BKDamon

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« Reply #5 on: December 30, 2021, 08:42:11 AM »

So I have learned a few things recently and I wanted to know if it was worth pointing them out to my uBPDx.

First, she’s always asking me to buy clothes for the kids because she says that she can’t afford to do it. But by a mutual friend, I have learned that she just bought an ipad, a new laptop and has asked him some advice about a car she was considering to buy. I figured that mentioning that to her might stop her from asking me for money or clothes, but I’m not so sure about that eventually.

The second thing is that I have learned from the real estate agency that is selling our house is that she was on vacation last week (Christmas week). And the problem is that she refused to have the kids for Christmas week (we used to alternate between families when we were together, and Christmas was supposed to be in her family this year) because, according to her, she just couldn’t, implying though not explicitly stating that it was for professional reasons. The reality is that she closed her practice and went abroad for her 40th birthday... Again, my initial reaction was to let her know that I am aware of her lies so that she could just cut it out, but is it worthwhile with a pwBDP?

Thanks,
BK
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« Reply #6 on: December 30, 2021, 08:47:30 AM »

Statements that include "...she’s always..." need to be avoided. When discussing issues be specific and not black/white/always/never.

What do you gain by telling her this? That you're keeping tabs on her?

How could you better spend your time? How is someone in your life doing that actually cares about you doing? Have you caught up with them recently? Why do you need more conflict in your life?
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BKDamon

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« Reply #7 on: December 30, 2021, 10:02:07 AM »

I might have worded it the wrong way (I’m not a native English speaker), or my frustration might just have tainted it all, but I am not looking for conflict, nor am I keeping tabs.

I didn’t actively seek out those pieces of information, for instance, and I am happy having minimal contact with her and spending my time on other matters.
My question is more about the utility of pointing out those things: when she asks me to buy new clothes for the kids or asks for money as she did in every email she has sent me in the last two months (hence the "always", sorry for that), would it be useful to point out in a brief, informative, friendly and firm way, that it is not coherent with what I have learned? Or am I supposed act as if I didn’t know these things and just say nothing?

It’s all just related to my initial request of knowing what I should respond to and talk about with her, and finding the right balance in order to be BIFF but without walking on eggshells or deliberately withholding information.
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« Reply #8 on: December 30, 2021, 11:00:26 AM »

I would provide specific examples of her requests. Say that it is logistically too much. Going forward, she should buy the items and provide you with receipts that need reimbursement.

You don't gain anything by talking about what else she has bought. The above pushes back by making her finance the purchases. That's much harder and time-consuming than firing off emails.
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« Reply #9 on: December 30, 2021, 11:15:39 AM »

I had no clue you aren't a native English speaker, so you're expressing yourself just fine.

As for her asking for money and new kids' clothes while she is buying oodles of things for herself and even declining time with the kids... you're discovering in yet another way that she is concerned more for herself and her own advantages.  All this while you've been trying to be fair about everything.

As already asked, how would you benefit by telling her what you know?  You already know she is self-centered.  You'll probably never get a sincere apology.  Keep using BIFF and be comfortable saying "No" when you decide it is appropriate.

Being asked to pay for all the kids' new clothes is a common complaint here.  Some have even said that the clothes they bought for the kids were never seen again in future exchanges.  The kids kept arriving in old clothes.  (I remember when my son was wearing size 5 he arrived one day wearing a size 2 shirt.)  At least one member here said the policy was to dress the kids well while in their care but send the kids back in the same clothes they arrived in, just washed clean because they never saw the new clothes ever again.
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kells76
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« Reply #10 on: December 30, 2021, 12:11:28 PM »

BKDamon, could you please remind me, are you sending her any kind of monthly support (child support, etc)?

If so, when she says something like "you have to pay for the kids' clothes", consider a BIFF response like "The support check will be in the mail on the 15th as usual. Thanks, BKDamon"

If not, what are your thoughts about if the kids really need clothes or not? Decide what YOU think and act according to YOUR values.

What we have done is even though DH pays child support, we have chosen to get the kids clothes if we see they need something. Typically it is "bigger" stuff like rain gear or winter clothes. We had to let go of "fair" or not and just focus on what the kids needed. They are older now (13 & 15) so we are at a point where if they say "ugh I don't have a coat to wear" we can say "how about you bring the one I got you back from Mom's house?"

That approach would depend on if you have the finances to do so. Each situation is unique, so if it doesn't work, there are other approaches.

I have seen their mom wearing stuff we got for the kids, though, which does drive me crazy. That's BPD for you -- no boundaries.

Interested to hear back from you;

kells76
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BKDamon

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« Reply #11 on: January 04, 2022, 09:28:01 AM »

Thank you all very much for your replies!

To be clear if I wasn’t, my goal isn’t to fire off an email each time I discover that she has been unreasonable or deceitful. I was just wondering if I should bring up the things that I have learned to have a fairer and more open discussion, but I understand now that it is unfortunately not the best way to approach it. That would be a form of JADEing, which I should avoid doing.

I’m still detaching, I guess, in the sense that I still have a little hope that she’ll be able to manage our separation without being abusive and I’m still disappointed whenever she is. It’s hard to find the appropriate way to communicate in these situations.

So I need to learn to be assertive in the right way. I have just started reading Splitting by Eddy and Kreger which is about divorcing a person with BPD or NPD. I hope it’ll bring me some interesting insights in addition to the help I get from this forum.

Kells76, I am not sending her any kind of monthly support at the moment. We initially agreed on our own to split in half the expenses regarding the kids, but she latter asked me to pay two thirds instead, which I refused to do. Plus, we couldn’t agree on the kind of things we should pay in common: I thought it should only be "outdoors" clothing (coats, shoes, etc., the bigger stuff as you said), health-, extracurricular- and education-related costs, but she wanted to include more things, and even asked me to pay 2/3 of her food.
That’s when we decided to contact lawyers, who are working with us on an agreement.

It’s funny, because I have just read in Splitting that pwBPD can sometimes tell the court that their soon-to-be ex can earn a lot more money but are unwilling. Well, in my case, it is the opposite. She is an independent worker and chose to work two days a week when we were together because I had sufficient income. She was supposed to do more house chores in return, but she never did. Instead, she would rather hire a cleaning lady, go to the spa, shop at the producers market or take singing lessons all of which had of course a significant impact on our finances. And I had to take care of the house, paperwork, budget, grocery shopping, meal preparation... Now she wants me to pay most of the expenses related to the kids so she can keep working two days a week. Yeah, as you can see, I’m a little frustrated and it’s about time we get our lawyers into this.

I’ll keep you informed!
Happy new year to you all
« Last Edit: January 04, 2022, 09:33:46 AM by BKDamon » Logged
kells76
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« Reply #12 on: January 04, 2022, 09:35:53 AM »

Excerpt
We initially agreed on our own to split in half the expenses regarding the kids, but she latter asked me to pay two thirds instead, which I refused to do.

Is this documented (in emails, etc)?

Excerpt
even asked me to pay 2/3 of her food.

Laugh out loud (click to insert in post) same... documented?

I'm only LOL ing because it's just so... familiar. The entitlement is jawdropping.

Excerpt
Now she wants me to pay most of the expenses related to the kids so she can keep working two days a week. Yeah, as you can see, I’m a little frustrated and it’s about time we get our lawyers into this.

Yeah, that's an expected next step. You tried doing it "off the books" and she is pushing the boundaries. Getting legal fences up should help.

Also, keep your receipts!
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BKDamon

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« Reply #13 on: January 05, 2022, 06:39:01 AM »

Is this documented (in emails, etc)?

Our initial agreement was only oral, unfortunately. I might have a couple of emails that mention it, but none of them restate it clearly.
As for her request for a 2/3 coverage of her food, it was in an email and yes, I still have it. I have never deleted any of her emails and I started archiving her texts a couple of months ago (only...).

I'm only LOL ing because it's just so... familiar. The entitlement is jawdropping.

I have shown the said email to my lawyer and talk about it to my close relations, and their first reaction was the same LOL. Sorry if this sounds familiar to you, but it’s comforting to read. I’m starting to understand the meaning of this idea that I have read a several times:  BPD/NPD sufferers have a limited range of stereotypical behaviors.

Seeing lawyers has already helped, since hers has told her that she cannot just enforce her schedule and vacation plans as she will (with nicer words, I guess)... the sense of entitlement, as you said.

Also, keep your receipts!

I surely do, thanks!

I feel more confident now, thanks again to you all. She’s been excessively friendly and lighthearted in her recent messages, I don’t know if I should relax or worry, but I feel that I can manage.
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« Reply #14 on: January 05, 2022, 09:55:32 AM »

Never relax!

My H and his uBPD/NPD ex have been separated then divorced since the mid-1990s, and she still tries to pull off the most entitled acts. The latest was calling him to go halfsies on an expensive water filtration system for the granddaughter -- turns out Ex had already ordered it on her credit card. Too bad...we had taken care of Christmas presents by then.

Even if your 50-50 agreement is not documented in an email, the resulting emails/texts discussing pickups, dropoffs, etc. could show the schedule that was in place. You might want to go back through the communications and see how much it supports the verbal agreement.

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« Reply #15 on: January 10, 2022, 01:42:18 PM »

BKDamon - one thought occurred to me as I read through the thread: you need to chill a bit.

She's going to continue to be irrational, selfish, and dishonest.  Whether she actually believes the things she says, or is just intentionally trying to deceive you doesn't matter.  You can't control her, and you can't fix her.  And you can't control third parties either.  You can protect yourself, and you can be there for your kids.  In the long run, kids know which parent they can trust, and which parent is there for them, but it's not always a smooth path (in the short run). 

When responding to a BPDx, the best advice I've received was to simply ignore the editorials... all parts of their message that aren't based in fact, or asking a question that needs a response should be ignored. 

So for example: "What time are you picking up the kids? Try not to be late again, because I'm tired of you failing to be there for them."

The second sentence may not have a shred of truth underlying it, but that doesn't mean you need to respond.  "Be there at 6" is all you need to say.

Another bit of advice I received was that ignoring their provocations upsets them more than anything you could say in return.  That's because pwBPD feed off the drama and the fighting; they have an endless capacity for it.  They're not claiming you're always late because they believe it, they're claiming it because they want or need a response from you, regardless of whether it's angry, combatitive or conciliatory.  So, just remind yourself not to give this person what they want and move on.  Remember how glad you should be that you're not married to them anymore! 
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« Reply #16 on: January 10, 2022, 01:43:15 PM »

Never relax!

...


Ha.  I just told him he needs to chill.

I guess I'd say "Chill, but don't let your guard down."
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« Reply #17 on: January 10, 2022, 02:37:13 PM »

Ha.  I just told him he needs to chill.

I guess I'd say "Chill, but don't let your guard down."

LOL! Exactly. Chill enough to bring your blood pressure down, but be ready for whatever arises.
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« Reply #18 on: January 11, 2022, 04:02:40 AM »

Ha.  I just told him he needs to chill.

I guess I'd say "Chill, but don't let your guard down."

LOL! Exactly. Chill enough to bring your blood pressure down, but be ready for whatever arises.

 Laugh out loud (click to insert in post) that’s exactly where I’m at and the point of this thread: finding the right balance!

BKDamon - one thought occurred to me as I read through the thread: you need to chill a bit.

Yes, probably, but it’s easier said than done!
I’m usually pretty chill (well, let’s just say chiller) with all that since my therapy, but I’m in the middle of selling our house and buying a new one for me and the kids, and as I explained, lawyers just got involved to solve custody and financial issues. As a consequence, my ex has been particularly present and abusive in the past weeks. Was a little overwhelmed, that’s why I posted on this board.

Last week has been particularly tough, a lot of emotional roller-coasters in her emails, but I managed to stay BIFF. I needed her to agree on meeting rapidly with our lawyers to progress on the whole house selling/buying stuff, so we wrote to each other more frequently than usual and it seemed to appease her in a way. She was still self-centered and dishonest, and quite more intrusive as a result, but at least she was less aggressive, more compliant.

Another bit of advice I received was that ignoring their provocations upsets them more than anything you could say in return.  That's because pwBPD feed off the drama and the fighting; they have an endless capacity for it.  They're not claiming you're always late because they believe it, they're claiming it because they want or need a response from you, regardless of whether it's angry, combatitive or conciliatory.  So, just remind yourself not to give this person what they want and move on.  Remember how glad you should be that you're not married to them anymore! 

Good advice, it’s usually what I try to do. I don’t know if I want to upset her, though. I mean I usually don’t care about what she’s feeling, it’s not my problem anymore, and nothing works for her anyways (if I reply she says that I’m aggressive, if I don’t I’m accused of "cancelling her", either way she finds me violent). But I really don’t want to make our separation more difficult, particularly on the legal side. I sometimes feel that if I don’t reply to her abuse and accusations, it could be interpreted as a validation on my part. I’m probably overthinking this and trying too hard to be irreproachable. Need to chill!  Being cool (click to insert in post)
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« Reply #19 on: January 15, 2022, 02:19:15 PM »

Hi everyone,

So, I left my exBPD with whom I have three kids (5, 8 and 11) in March after discovering that she was having an affair, again...
I was devastated and her behavior since the break-up has been so disappointing that communicating with her has been really tough.

I can’t go no contact because of the kids, but it’s really difficult to be reminded everyday of her existence. I checked rapidly, and in the last 30 days I have received 6 phone calls, almost 30 emails and about a hundred text messages.

Of course, I don’t respond to all of them. I usually write about one email per week. I try to be BIFF but she is still triggered by the fact that I disagree with her. Is that normal? Is there anyway to do better? I can’t really be friendly to her, but at least I try not be accusative and stay factual. Is that enough?

It’s hard for me to find the right balance. I usually start by writing a draft that a sensible person would understand, writing about my feelings and explaining why some of her requests are absurd or insensitive. And then I edit all that down to a rather clinical business-like email.

I apologized two days ago for the coldness of my email, and oh boy, was I wrong to do so. She wrote a long and disorganized reply at 5 am, with clearly manipulative sentences, and an overly open and friendly tone. She said that she only asks for money because she can’t afford to buy clothes for the kids (she’s a physician with her own practice...), that we need to learn to communicate in a less "traumatizing" way, that she’s angry at me but manages to put it aside for our kids’ sake, that she hopes that our separation will help us to learn to work together, that she tries to use communication techniques that our couple therapist taught us, that she is tired of putting a lot of thoughts and efforts to avoid hurting me with her messages, that I only get frustrated because her demands aren’t in my favor, that I have to stop changing our agreements about custody all the time... She ends the message by thanking me for teaching her how to settle down and enjoy spending time with the kids.

The thing is, I DON’T KNOW WHAT SHE’S TALKING ABOUT! Our couple therapist never taught us communication techniques, we worked on setting up boundaries... My messages are usually just answers to her (valid) requests plus, now and then, a polite reminder that we agreed to communicate only by mail and only once a week, and that we’re still far from this target. So I don’t understand why she would be mad at me or "traumatized" in any way! And I never taught her anything about settling down and spending quality time with the kids (I wish I did!).

I was confused and showed the message to a friend who said it was like she was absorbing or appropriating my thoughts and actions and projecting hers onto me: I do take a lot of time and effort in replying to her messages, I do get angry at her abusive requests, but SHE gets mad because I don’t always answer in her favor. And I have never changed anything about our agreement since March, she did multiple times! And I was the one who was traumatized and had to go to multiple therapists. This is insane.

While writing this post, I just read two other emails from her, again sent in the early morning. She wrote that, ultimately, I had what I wanted (some alone time that she didn’t allow me to have when we were together) so I should be happy...
She wrote that she knows that I feel that I have been « wronged » at the end of our relationship, but that she felt that she’s been wronged herself but on a different time scale, so it is the same. This is infuriating. I spent 15 years trying to give her what she wanted, with all my love, time, trust, attention, money. I wasn’t perfect, but I never cheated on, lied to and manipulated her, I never smashed things out of anger, I never insulted her or hit her or did any of the crazy and abusive things that I had to endure all those years!

So, my questions are: what do I respond to? Should I remind her that betraying and manipulating are just unacceptable for me, and that I’d rather never speak to her again?
I sometimes just want her to understand that because of what she did to me, interacting with her is unpleasant to say the least, and that if she cares about me as she says, she would just leave me alone, that it’s the right thing to do.
Could she understand that?

And I just don’t think I can cope with co-parenting. Am I over-reacting? Is it bad for the kids? I mean, if co-parenting with her means receiving on average one email per day and 100 texts a month, I don’t think I can manage. I’d rather stick to parallel parenting. I need to heal and stay away from her and her manipulations. It really gets to me, she can still make me feel guilty.

I hope my post makes sense, I’m being a little emotional. Thanks a lot in advance for your advice!

 Let me start by saying what you are doing is the right thing. Only respond to valid requests.

 As for the other unresolved issues, it takes time. She messed up, maybe her new affair or relationship didn’t work out and now you are once again the focus of her projections. Eventually she will attach herself to a new host and lose interest in you as long as you don’t engage. Remember there is no point of shaming her or reminding her or pointing fingers. BPDs feel immense shame all the time they can’t deal with it and they must project it on their target. Learn how to deal with your trauma and the feelings of betrayal. There was no way for you to win, there was nothing you could of done to fill her void. She was not happy and never will be but that is now legitimately not your responsibility and you have nothing to do with her and her feelings . Focus on your children and your own life. The same line I always use that what she did has nothing to do with you and all to do with her and only her.
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