D13's Decision vs. D13's Feelings Matter

[mama-wolf]

I had an interesting one-on-one with the new Family T yesterday.  Mostly to address what triggered me so much a few weeks ago in the joint session with uBPDxw (at the encouragement of my T), but also to talk through some more of what I have struggled with in general, and some of my concerns.

One topic has stuck with me more than the rest, though.  She asked me how I portray the situation to D13 regarding her relationship with uBPDxw.  I told her that when bigger decisions come up (like recent questions of new piercings) I consistently remind D13 that I need to discuss it with uBPDxw.  And that I make it clear that we are in contact about what's going on with both kids in general.  But I also respect that D13 doesn't refer to uBPDxw as "Mom," and I don't push the subject about when and how they might rebuild some kind of relationship.

The Family T said it sounds like I feel it's D13's decision whether she has a relationship with uBPDxw or not, and that even if I don't directly say that, there are (of course) all kinds of non-verbal ways that message can be coming across.  I want to be clear that she was not accusing in any way, and I had every sense that she was trying to understand what dynamic she's working with.  It made me pause, though...and ultimately I had to say yes, on some level it is D13's decision.  That I know kids don't really get to make that decision overall, but at some point as they become teens, they do have more of a say.  Even so, I still make it clear that D13 has to participate in family therapy, and that the question of contact/relationship with uBPDxw is part of that.

I also expressed to the Family T that I see uBPDxw as D13's abuser.  And S9's to some extent, but D13 bore the brunt of it when uBPDxw had partial custody.  I acknowledged that uBPDxw is my abuser as well, though I really tried to stay focused on the kids.  I told her that makes it exceedingly hard for me to encourage a relationship with uBPDxw, because she has shown no indication over the past few years that any of that behavior has gotten better.  In fact, quite the opposite given her behavior just in the last 6-8 months.

Either way, it's that I think it's D13's decision to make.  She's a bit too young to have a full say in that.  My primary focus in all of this has been to validate D13's feelings and make it clear that her feelings matter.  Only now I'm trying to figure out where the line is between supporting that message vs. stepping over it into a message that it's D13's decision...and how to navigate this with Family T.  Because if D13 is pushed into situations where she has to be around uBPDxw and she doesn't feed into uBPDxw's emotional needs, I'm pretty certain how that's going to play out.

mw

[PeteWitsend]

It's not the same situation, but I know when my parents divorced, I hated getting dragged into any of the acrimony - or even having to talk about it for more than 5 minutes. 

I had my own "teenager" issues to deal with, and while I was totally sympathetic to my mom's side & lived with her, I also didn't want to deal with any of her BS given everything else on my plate at that age... school, peer pressure, girls, college applications, sports, after school job, etc. etc.   

The position I would have appreciated the most from my mom would have been to say she wasn't encouraging or discouraging me from contact or a relationship with my dad, but she was allowing me to have one.  And she wasn't going to judge me in any way, or guilt trip me regardless of what I did.  And she definitely wasn't going to keep talking about it!

I was 17 at the time.  At 13, your daughter is almost in a different stage, but not quite, and I think you may consider taking the same approach with her, provided you're not creating any presumption of alienating her from your BPDex that she could raise in court.  or otherwise raise a stink over.

[mama-wolf]

The position I would have appreciated the most from my mom would have been to say she wasn't encouraging or discouraging me from contact or a relationship with my dad, but she was allowing me to have one.  And she wasn't going to judge me in any way, or guilt trip me regardless of what I did.  And she definitely wasn't going to keep talking about it!

Thanks, PeteWitsend...this is exactly the position I have been operating from.  I don't encourage or discourage, and I try to maintain the avenue if/when D13 feels she might be ready to approach the subject (knowing that there will be a lot of emotional turmoil given the history of uBPDxw's behavior towards her--which I am convinced was the primary cause for D13 developing her eating disorder).  I don't judge D13 for her feelings about it, nor do I tell her she should feel or behave a certain way.  We generally don't talk about her having any kind of relationship with uBPDxw at all, but given her age I can't guarantee no contact ever because there is still a legal right for uBPDxw to exercise.  Which is why we're in family therapy to help keep those efforts contained in a space that (hopefully) won't go any faster than what D13 can handle.

It is clear from comments that uBPDxw has made that she believes I have in fact alienated D13 from her.  That is not supported at all by the prior Family T, or D13's individual T, and so far I don't think the new Family T believes that either.  But uBPDxw will continue to believe whatever fits her narrative of events and keeps the accountability off of her for the state of their relationship.

mw

[kells76]

This seems tied to the complexities of abuse.

Like -- OK, if xW was abusive, then why does S9 still spend time with her? Or, if S9 spends time with her, then she must not be abusive, so D13 needs to go, too. Or, is it possible for a parent to be abusive to one child and not another? Or does abusing one child directly, by definition mean that it's an abusive environment for all children, regardless of to whom it's "directed"?

You seem to have to straddle these two worlds and it's really difficult. Things aren't so black and white. It's not as simple as "she was abusive to me and D13, therefore I receive total support from every court and agency in keeping both kids away from her". I wonder if there's this danger of "if you push things too far or rock the boat too much, then someone is going to look at the situation, see that it's not so bad, and make D13 spend time with her". Sort of -- you've cobbled together the "least worst" arrangement for D13 right now, and what it looks like is something you'd never voluntarily go for -- a child deciding not to spend time with a parent. In an ideal world you wouldn't go for that. But we're here now.

You're trying your best to do "both and" -- yes you coparent S9 with xW and so you talk about doing coparent discussions with xW, and there's a way in which you sort of "have to" in order to "let" D13 not be in contact with her, maybe? Like, again, if you pushed too hard to not have either kid in contact (or in unsupervised contact) with her, you might lose the protection that has been built up for D13?

IDK, it's kind of train of thought stuff here, but it seems like there's this really tense balance you're in, where you're trying to cooperate (or at least not be uncooperative) with xW especially under light from professionals, yet the best situation for D13 is that you don't "cooperate" about her with xW. And that comes back to -- the abuse situation wasn't "black and white", so if it gets brought up, there's a danger that some professional is going to say: "If it's OK for S9 to go, you need to make D13 go".

Wondering if any of those vibes are going on.

[Notwendy]

Only now I'm trying to figure out where the line is between supporting that message vs. stepping over it into a message that it's D13's decision...and how to navigate this with Family T.  Because if D13 is pushed into situations where she has to be around uBPDxw and she doesn't feed into uBPDxw's emotional needs, I'm pretty certain how that's going to play out


How much does the T understand about what is going on with your D and her BPDmother?  One thing that was difficult to deal with when I was a teen was that if I said anything about my BPD mother, it was passed off as "that normal teen age thing" but when I raised my own teens, I could see there was a qualitative difference between that and the normal experience of being a mom to a teenager who thinks anything I do is just not cool and is embarrassing to them. It's hard to make people understand this, unless they've experienced it.

There's a comedy show "Crazy Ex Girlfriend" when it's the young woman who has BPD ( and is actually aware and working on it) and her mother in the show is just awful and there's a moment where she thinks they are reconciling and the comedy song is called "Maybe She’s Not Such a Heinous B** After All" and one part was:

I still hate her, don't get me wrong
(Really hate her, genuinely hate her)
But it's more like the way normal girls hate their moms
(Every daughter kind of hates their mom)
All I ever prayed for every day
Was to resent my mother in a regular way



And that one resonated with me because she gets it. Teen girls can resent their mothers because it's safe to do so because they have a secure attachment to them. Their mother's love them unconditionally, even when they are having mood swings and being hormonal and can't figure out who they are yet. This is part of their normal development. They seem to go through a push pull with their parents as part of this, but they need a secure attachment to push on.

It's not the same with a BPD mother. The attachment is not secure. The mother also has mood swings and her own dysfunctional relationship skills. The resentment is there as the teen may be expected to behave even better than the BPD parent and may take on a caretaking role (parentification).

Even for those of us who are adults, the decision to go NC even with an abusive parent is a difficult choice. I don't think a 13 year old has the maturity to make such a choice, but also it's important to take their feelings into consideration and not invalidate them. It may be that your D is more comfortable visiting when there's other family around, or less frequently.

It's good for her that she has you to validate her feelings and you are a Mom who unconditionally loves her even when she drives you teen age crazy

[mama-wolf]

This seems tied to the complexities of abuse.

You seem to have to straddle these two worlds and it's really difficult. Things aren't so black and white.

That's exactly it.  I bore the brunt of the abusive behavior when we were still together because I stood between her and the kids--plus the other underlying causes for her emotionally abusive behavior.  The kids were also young enough that they generally still fed into uBPDxw's emotional demands, but D9 (at the time) was getting to a level of development where she was starting to push against that and uBPDxw was already behaving more critically towards her as a result.

And then we divorced, and not only was uBPDxw completely dysregulated from the process of separation but also by her resentment of me, loss of control, etc.  And D9 was pretty vocal in expressing her preference to be with me, especially given the behaviors experienced in uBPDxw's home.  Plus, I think uBPDxw took some of her rage at me out on D9 in general because she couldn't get at me.  One key detail here is that my daugter is my biological child, and my son is uBPDxw's biological child.

Part of the reason we are in the current custody arrangement is because of the prior Family T's recommendations.  I did file for full custody of both kids in late 2019, with some strong evidence from the year and a half that led up to it.  Since a custody battle in court was still a risky prospect--and would absolutely have been hard on the kids--we worked with the Family T to set up a temporary order in hopes that things would get better with the changes.  The Family T suggested part of the issue was that uBPDxw clearly struggled to manage parenting both kids when they were with her.  She recommended a change that would ease the parental strain for uBPDxw, while giving the kids space from each other (they were pretty antagonistic towards each other at that point), and also allow for some time for uBPDxw to work on her relationship with D10 (at the time).  The 50-50 schedule was maintained for our son, and our daughter would be with me full time but with visitation during the day on Sundays (where every other Sunday it would be just the two of them, alternating with Sundays that my son was with them, too). 

Having only our son to parent seemed to reduce some of the strain for uBPDxw, plus I don't think she ever really would have treated him the same...whether because he's younger, or because he's a boy, or because he's hers biologically.   Tension between the kids improved at my house, and my daughter's anxiety started getting better.  But the Sunday visits just continued to traumatize her, including continued behaviors from uBPDXW, and at least two occasions where uBPDxw brought her back early saying she couldn't deal with her (which she said right in front of her).   When quarantine hit, uBPDxw decided to stop the visits but the damage was pretty deep at that point.

I wonder if there's this danger of "if you push things too far or rock the boat too much, then someone is going to look at the situation, see that it's not so bad, and make D13 spend time with her".

You're trying your best to do "both and" -- yes you coparent S9 with xW and so you talk about doing coparent discussions with xW, and there's a way in which you sort of "have to" in order to "let" D13 not be in contact with her, maybe? Like, again, if you pushed too hard to not have either kid in contact (or in unsupervised contact) with her, you might lose the protection that has been built up for D13?

So yes, in part this is true.  Thankfully, the current custody order does protect D13 from having to stay overnight at uBPDxw's home on a regular basis, but uBPDxw could force the Sunday visits.  And holidays/vacation.  Which, maybe D13 could get to a point of tolerating or even wanting...assuming uBPDxw manages her own behavior.

How much does the T understand about what is going on with your D and her BPDmother?  

I think she's still building her own assessment of the situation, but she is very experienced with all of these dynamics.  She does reunification therapy as well, and even though that's not the kind of therapy we're doing I am sure her experience in that area helps.

Teen girls can resent their mothers because it's safe to do so because they have a secure attachment to them. Their mother's love them unconditionally, even when they are having mood swings and being hormonal and can't figure out who they are yet. This is part of their normal development. They seem to go through a push pull with their parents as part of this, but they need a secure attachment to push on.

It's not the same with a BPD mother. The attachment is not secure. The mother also has mood swings and her own dysfunctional relationship skills. The resentment is there as the teen may be expected to behave even better than the BPD parent and may take on a caretaking role (parentification).

Yes, very much all of this.  Believe me, I am starting to get the normal teenage resentment and moodiness, the eye rolling and outbursts.  But I'm also getting an unprompted apology soon afterward, and I have the sense that she knows I love her even when I get frustrated or angry myself (even though she'll sometimes ask for reassurance that this is true).  She does sometimes struggle beyond the "typical" teenager moodiness, which I attributed to her ongoing need to heal from past trauma, but she's managing that as well.  And there is definitely no secure attachment with uBPDxw to allow them to navigate that together.

It's good for her that she has you to validate her feelings and you are a Mom who unconditionally loves her even when she drives you teen age crazy

Thank you, Notwendy

[livednlearned]

The Family T said it sounds like I feel it's D13's decision whether she has a relationship with uBPDxw or not, and that even if I don't directly say that, there are (of course) all kinds of non-verbal ways that message can be coming across. 

How did you feel when she asked that question?

I ask only because it's hard to know what the intention was, since the words themselves seem sort of biased.

[mama-wolf]

How did you feel when she asked that question?

I definitely felt like I had messed up somehow...like I had unintentionally given D13 more power in the situation than she should have.  The Family T did clarify that she wasn't saying it was wrong, only that it could be I have unintentionally communicated this to D13.  She said she was trying to understand the dynamic she is working with, because it has an impact on the work that needs to be done.

Again--and something I need to find a way to clarify to the Family T--my primary goal has been to make it clear to D13 that her feelings matter.  As Notwendy mentioned, a 13-year-old doesn't have the maturity to choose NC, but at the moment there's not really any middle ground to work with.  That's what the family therapy is supposed to help with, but it will also depend on uBPDxw making that middle ground feasible.

mw

[livednlearned]

there's not really any middle ground to work with.  That's what the family therapy is supposed to help with, but it will also depend on uBPDxw making that middle ground feasible.

I have deep distrust of the "therapeutic jurisprudence" part of family court so it's always humming away in the background. It may not be so bad in your situation and this could just be me being overly cautious and suspicious.

What you're doing is looking for skills that you and D13 can both use to build a safe relationship with an abusive parent. You are learning those skills, and D13 is learning them. It's a work in progress.

So it isn't about whether you are giving D13 power to make decisions or undermining that relationship. It's more complex than that. It's more complex than what the question suggests.

She could've guided you there. She could've said, "Am I right in sensing that you are seeking skilled ways to support D13 in having a safe relationship with uBPDxw?"

My son's psychiatrist/therapist once told me something along the lines of, "S21 has no illusion that his dad will do better. In many ways, that is preferable. When a parent fails to perform the basic functions of parenting, and shows no signs of self-reflection or self-awareness, it can be preferable for the child to get clear about that so they can move forward and not yearn for something that isn't likely to happen."

One skill I have learned thanks to family law court is to turn questions back on the people asking them. Not to be difficult, but to ask them what they think so I can figure out where they're coming from.

I don't think it's a fair question to ask without revealing what her own assumptions and biases are. She's not just a therapist, she's a court-ordered therapist. She is part of the system. She can characterize you as though she is an impartial expert, when she's not.

[mama-wolf]

She could've guided you there. She could've said, "Am I right in sensing that you are seeking skilled ways to support D13 in having a safe relationship with uBPDxw?"

Thank you lnl...this is very helpful.  At the very least, I feel pretty confident that I'll need to take exactly what you said back to the Family T and ask her for this:  skilled ways to support D13 in having a safe relationship with uBPDxw.

mw

[Notwendy]

I agree- when I read the T's response, it felt much like "here we go again" how people responded to my feelings. I felt shame for feeling this way about my mother.  In addition, BPD mother blamed me for the issues between us when I was a teen, called it that "mother daughter thing" as if I was just being an emotional and difficult teen.

In our culture, we automatically attribute positive characteristics to mothers and in most situations, they are true- mothers are loving and caring. If the child doesn't feel that way- well it must be the child who has the problem. How dare they talk about their mothers that way!

It's a fine line to distinguish that "normal" teen age conflict with their mother from something different, to validate their feelings and yet, realize they are still kids and not give them too much responsibility. It helps to be supportive rather than blame them for their feelings.