Specific subtype of Borderline who will do a distortion/smear campaign?

[Don Gato]

   I'm very grateful for this webpage. I'm now eight months post discard from the rollercoaster ten month relationship I had with my suspected Cluster B disordered ex.
Still self healing from the trauma bond which is something I have never experienced in my 51 years of dating and relationships. I know it wasn't all me, but I do have some co-dependency issues to resolve, and I'm working on them. What I can't get past though is how abrupt, evil and cruel this woman discarded me, and why? Not only that she concocted a distorted smear campaign against me to try and ruin my life when all I did was try to visit her as a friend a month after going no contact. She asked for "space" because she met someone new. She totally had me fooled up to that point. I thought I had met my person for life. Ironically she called me her "Favorite Person" and now I know that really translates as "doomed" in BPD terms. I can't speak for everybody, but learning about these disorders has been very therapeutic for me. It's kind of like I know this person was seriously mentally ill, and there was nothing I could have said or done to change things, but I would still like to know what I might have been dealing with? I know self diagnosing is wrong, but there were some things she said and did that still kind of puzzle me, so I'm hoping someone in this forum may pick up on something from these traits that maybe they can identify with that I may have missed in my research. I wouldn't wish this nightmare on my worst enemy. Sorry if it is boring and long I want to be specific and detailed. No names used.

(My ex)
45 F high functioning assistant neurosurgeon
married once-husband killed in car accident.
told me she never lived with a man, husband was
a professional athlete always gone. 
self described herself as "very independent, very selfish, not normal, emotionally labile, probably incapable of having a normal relationship" admitted alcoholic, but never noticed her drinking more than a few glasses of wine. She did say this "It's BS I have to drink to open up emotionally to you ... and when I do not drink I'm not capable of that" "I hate drinking it makes me impulsive and make bad decisions"
She has Crohn's disease and an ileostomy which honestly never bothered me, but she was insecure about it, especially in intimate situations.
Told my mom she had a stroke at some point so I don't know if that causes any of these traits too?
Love bombed me to death early "I'm so grateful for you" "God answered my prayers" etc etc First red flag I actually did not ignore was about a month after when she begged me to go to a concert, then last minute ghosted me and took someone else with no apology. *This would be repeated many times in the following months. So I ignored her, and she revalued me all of a sudden I guess and said she needed me in her life...
Push pull type behavior went on for months, she would kind of tease me "you're not my boyfriend, but you kind of are hehe" Always asking me "Why do you love me? I treat you terrible" "You need to find someone normal"
She would be laughing and happy one minute, then snap and get angry over a phone call from the hospital throwing her Iphone angrily at the wall. She never got violent with me other than punching me in the arm a few times. Her most over the top emotional outburst I can recall was actually the very odd non stop crying and depression over the death of a celebrity drummer. Like a close family member died or something. This went on for days! Despondent, needy, clingy and talked about ending her own life. I was really worried. 
I had a gut feeling she was maybe bipolar or something, because when she had her wine she was sweet and happy, but when she was sober she was stone cold, and indifferent to my affection. She would nitpick me, passive aggressively attack me in texts out of the blue reminding me I made the coffee wrong, or forgot to close a cupboard days earlier? She was definitely OCD. I moved a book once from her coffee table and she noticed it immediately. Everything was immaculate, and she constantly re-arranged the furniture.
It felt like nothing I did was good enough though. I would surprise her with flowers on her doorstep. And she would thank me and say she was so happy and appreciative. A week later "no more surprises and those flowers were wilted did you get them from a dumpster?"
Anyway co-dependent me hung in there walking on eggshells, she would go date other guys and come right back to me for emotional support, fun, sex blah blah. One really strange trait of hers I will never forget is her regressing into little girl voice. I would say something nice she liked and in an excited wide eyed little girl voice she replied "You do have love for me! You are my favorite person" She enjoyed watching 80's videos on Youtube, and sometimes when a song she really liked popped on she would get really excited and say in the same little girl voice "Did you do that for me?" Like she was talking to a parent and I magically made it happen for her. Freaked me out, but in a way it was endearing.
Anyway long story short our worst argument actually happened over text. She was just blasting me with criticisms so I fired back "You are a pompous overcritical windbag!" She literally broke up with me over that. Three days later was her birthday, and I wanted to surprise her with her favorite cake, and also apologize. That night she seemed happy, but she said "You really hurt me I thought I was your princess on a pedestal" in tears, btw this bday surprise would later be twisted and used against me in the smear campaign. 
The saddest part of all this is I really naively believed I was softening her up. One of her favorite lines was always "commitment issues me?" The last time I saw her in person she gave me a kiss and said "I think I really am falling in love with you ..." Then of course she ghosted me again. Ignored texts.
Three weeks later I moved to a condo near her, she knew I was moving to her town. The day I moved in I texted her the address and she replied "congratulations" waited 20 min after to say this "I met someone very special and out of respect for him I need to ask you for space" I didn't read these as I was working, but then she texted "I love him!" "we were never close I wish you well"
I was devastated and texted back when I finally read them. She responded "I've not talked to you, I have been swept away by him"  I thought maybe she made it up because of the surprise of moving so close to her. Maybe it triggered a fear of engulfment or something. Anyway hurt, but gave her space and went no contact for a month then decided to run a flag up and just see if we were even friends still? I had a bag of cat treats for her and went to see her. First to her work but she had left early, then to her apt. She didn't answer the door so I just left the bag on her porch. A week later cops come to my door and serve me with a protection order! I was stunned. Even worse was her statement which was completely distorted and twisted to make me into some kind of stalker creep. The opening line was not even my name it was "This MAN I dated a few times would not leave me alone.." We had an intimate relationship for almost a year I could not comprehend it. She also took that special birthday surprise and twisted it to "I came home and this man was sitting on my doorstep with a cake" It's as if she was trying to erase my existence and role in her life, reducing me to just some crazy guy she dated briefly and that really hurt bad. Needless to say the female judge bought her Oscar worthy "victim" act in court and I lost even though I was right. I never once despite all the abuse she leveled on me all those months harmed her, or threatened her in any way. She took everything I sent her as a kind gesture and twisted it to something it wasn't. Flowers and gifts left were "left me unwanted gifts after I told him to stop" It just boggles my mind. It's like she needed to hurt the guy who genuinely loved her the most. I don't know if this a clue or not but one day she was talking about her work in serious manner, and she said quote "I feel as I have been anointed by God to do what I do" "My nurses and techs beneath me all worship at my feet, they would be lost in that OR without me" :
My best unprofessional guess at possibilities is BPD/NPD/OCD/PTSD and she also said she has misophonia which causes her to get violently angry if someone crunches a potato chip near her. She also is very paranoid of people knocking on the front door. Once she told me she felt like someone was slapping her in her sleep, and hears knocks, and noises in the walls too. My mom said she thought it was something demonic. I'm at a loss. Any feedback is appreciated.
Thank you for reading.
   

[Notwendy]

There are several personality disorders and they can overlap and all be on a spectrum. My mother fits the BPD spectrum best but has many characteristics of NPD. One is that she has lack of empathy and can be cruel. I will cite some of this in reference to your ex's sense of feeling "superior".

Have an unreasonably high sense of self-importance and require constant, excessive admiration.
Expect to be recognized as superior even without achievements.
Make achievements and talents seem bigger than they are.


The idea that she presents herself as a type of neurosurgeon is an example of this. She is not an assistant neurosurgeon. She may "assist" the neurosurgeon but she is not a surgeon at all as she has not completed the course of training a surgeon has to have to be one.


This is an inflated sense of grandiosity, it's not real.

My BPD mother has a sense of entitlement. One quality to her that is more NPD than BPD is lack of empathy. She can be verbally cruel and act very cold.

IMHO, your focus and energy is better spent on working on your own ( admitted ) co-dependent traits in these dynamics, and on your emotional recovery from being treated this way.

[Don Gato]

        Thank you for the reply, yes I agree 100%
 that I need to heal myself after this. For me though
 just getting close to what possible mental illness/es she had helps me in my healing journey. She never mentioned a specific, a few
 times she mentioned going to therapy and learning
 about "self preservation"?
Anyway to clarify a few things she is a Physician's Assistant (PA-C) neurosurgery if that makes a difference?
But you hit on something I had forgotten. One day I just asked her about the type of surgeries she does, and told her something like "Don't you have to have an MD supervise them since you are not an actual doctor?
and she looked like she wanted to throat punch me "How dare you you a**h***! I can do every surgery in that department" When I first met her on a dating site (insert hahas here) her profile said "healthcare professional". So I just assumed she might be a nurse since I had dated a lot of RN's on this same site. She flipped out and berated me for calling her a nurse like I was calling her a peasant or something. What you are saying about grandiosity is so true in so many cases I had forgotten about. I also remember her bragging about how she knew all these rock bands when she was in college, of course she always said "It's important you know I never slept with any of them" But then one day she just randomly mentioned she hooked up with an ex NFL player in Vegas, and dated a former MLB pitcher after her husband died. I do write too much, but like I said it's therapeutic to get it all out to people who maybe can identify with this type of behavior. I'm sorry about your mother, that's awful to be treated that way. I sometimes wonder if my exes mother might be just like her because she mentioned her mom always expects VIP treatment in restaurants, and for her to pay for everything. She was embarrassed by her mother belittling some wait staff when they put them at the wrong table. And her mom insisted on sitting on the nicer chair than her which she resented since she paid for everything. Little things like that just popped into my head, and are becoming clearer. Also she has one older brother who is an attorney and also has Crohn's. I'm wondering if she was the scapegoat in the family? Like mine her parents divorced when she was young over infidelity. Thank you.     

[SaltyDawg]

Anyway to clarify a few things she is a Physician's Assistant (PA-C) neurosurgery if that makes a difference?
But you hit on something I had forgotten. One day I just asked her about the type of surgeries she does, and told her something like "Don't you have to have an MD supervise them since you are not an actual doctor?
and she looked like she wanted to throat punch me "How dare you you a**h***! I can do every surgery in that department" When I first met her on a dating site (insert hahas here) her profile said "healthcare professional". So I just assumed she might be a nurse since I had dated a lot of RN's on this same site. She flipped out and berated me for calling her a nurse like I was calling her a peasant or something.

My bio-mom was a PA-C as well, one of the first in 1980.  She started as an OR tech and moved her way up to PA over the span of many years throughout the 1970's.  It is positioned between M.D. and nurse practitioner, so 'assistant surgeon' is somewhat of an accurate statement in my unprofessional opinion.

My mother shared with me and her surgeon colleague confirmed my wife did most of the procedures at the practice under his supervision and guidance - a team approach.   The only instrument that my mother didn't like using was the robot for orthoscopic procedures, and that is what the surgeon did while my wife assisted with the other parts; however, if she could handle the robot better, she would have been allowed to do the full procedure under his supervision.  There is a whole team of individuals in an OR theater.

I know my mom could and did every procedure they did except the ortho bot, but it was under supervision as a team, and she did not have the pride that your PA-C displayed.

What I am trying to say is that she was likely telling her version of the truth; however, it is obvious that she has let it get to her head in a very narcissistic way based on her reaction to you comparing her to other positions which she looked down upon.

[Don Gato]

  Oh wow, thank you for the clarification. That's some interesting history. I did read the idea of PA's came from the Korean War due to the shortage of doctors. I know she deeply resented "new" younger doctors right out of med school  she had to work with and train.
Unlike her I'm not vindictive and cruel, but I'm not going to lie I was very tempted after her discard to get revenge. Since she tried to ruin me in all possible ways I could very easily have reported her many HIPAA privacy violations. She would often text me while drinking some very specific details on her VIP, celebrity patients she operated on. Also a form of grandiose bragging I guess you would call it. She also said in a text she tested positive for COVID and just continued working on her cases which never sat right with me morally, and frankly that still bothers me. She said her boss said it was okay. Especially coming from someone vulnerable with a chronic disease herself. Another thing I remember now is me talking about my horrific back injury in 2007 that took a year to recover from. I asked her to look at my report and see if I would have been a candidate for surgery since that's her field. She said something hurtful and dismissive like "Oh it was nothing you had a blah blah problem at L5S1" then she got very angry and said try having to live with this and pointed to her little ileostomy bag "don't try to tell me about pain jerk!" All conversations seemed to always circle right back to her. December is my hardest month because my dad passed away from ALS right before Christmas in 2008. She knew this, and when I tried to reach out to her for support she was silent almost the whole month and it hurt. She did sort of apologize on NYE saying something like "I'm sorry I couldn't be there for you I should of" So if she's a narcissist she does have some remorse and empathy at times I guess.. Certainly never saw it after the discard. She actually timed calling the police to talk to me as I was going to church on a Sunday morning. She knew my routine very well. I always thought NPD people have zero empathy, but apparently like everything else it's all on a spectrum and hers must have been all over the place depending on her moods. Once again thanks for the reply.

[Notwendy]

Your ex is disordered and unprofessional. She's misrepresenting her role, and her training. I doubt her boss said it was OK to work while having Covid. No hospital would allow that. Either she's lying or her boss is as disordered as she is.

Please just focus on yourself. Revenge on your part would more likely lead to more trouble for you. You just then lower your own standards of behavior.

[Don Gato]

   I'm a very strong Christian who believes in forgiving by faith, but I don't know if I ever can forgive by feeling. I would never seek revenge, that thought was just after the immediate hurt over the smear campaign because I'm still human.
When someone hurts you that badly your first impulse is to get back at them, and make them hurt like you.
But I've also learned that you have to learn to forgive yourself before you can truly forgive others and heal.
"Whole Again" by Jackson MacKenzie is such a great book I highly recommend it for anyone who like me did not understand why us co-dependent "selfless caretaker" types seem to magnetically attract Cluster B disordered people in relationships, and worse stay with them when normal people would of been out the door once the abuse and devaluation started.

[Red5]

Afternoon Don,

{Quote}
I'm a very strong Christian who believes in forgiving by faith, but I don't know if I ever can forgive by feeling. I would never seek revenge, that thought was just after the immediate hurt over the smear campaign because I'm still human.

When someone hurts you that badly your first impulse is to get back at them, and make them hurt like you.

I too am a Christian, though imperfect, and failed, but I try to live by the tenants taught.

I have always heard, that forgiveness is for us, our own spirit, not them, ... forgiving them, allows us to let go of the ____ that they did to us, as well the residual ramifications or what they may have done, ... perhaps the old saying, "forgive and forget" is apt here, ... as in scripture it talks at length about how the Lord forgives us, ... but likewise, as Jesus himself told the woman at the well, "your sins are forgiven, go and sin no more" ... pretty powerful right there.

Lady on the radio says all the time, "revenge is like a person holding two hot coals in both of their hands, waiting for the chance to throw them at their offender (overt revenge?), when all that is really happening is; that the person is only harming themselves" ... eg' third degree burns in both palms of their hands.

*holding onto anger only harms your own spirit*

#toxic

Smear campaigns are a fav tactic of an npd/bpd (malignant?) ... a lot of damage can be done in short order, ... this is why (retrospectively) we must be careful as to whom we interact with, crossing professional/personal relationships.

In a real relationship, whether romantic/family/professional/public, ... you should be known by your character, and ethic, not by what somebody else says (spreads) about you, ... a grounded moral person, should know the deference between gossip, or real life actions behaviors.

That is not always generally the case however, that said, we must be 'comfortable in our own skin', ... *strong self esteem*, ... ability to discern (the spirits).

Have you read about the different types of borderlines?

*Waif
*Hermit
*Queen
*Witch

*Quiet bpd (high executive function?)
*Petulant bpd (Histrionic?)
*Impulsive (angry) bpd
*Destructive (self loathing?) bpd

Lots to learn ... all interesting, albeit disturbing to be sure.

*co-dependent "selfless caretaker" *

I was told a few years ago (head shrinker #3) that I was codependent, which 'jives' with what I have come to understand about myself, and these women I have had in my life, all the way back to age 18 when I married my first wife.

*caretaker*

I have to come to understand that there may well be a distinct difference between a "caretaker', and a "caregiver".

As in, ... a caretaker is in the relationship (perhaps unwittingly) to give and to take (receive back), hence caretaker, the relationship is transactional, ... make sense?

*the codependent 'feeds' off of the operant conditioning/intermittent positive rewards from the bpd/npd iot obtain 'validation' that they are wanted, by caretaking the bpd/npd, they give, and expect a return, to "take"*

Whereas, a 'caregiver' is only there to give, not ever caring if the 'gift' of care will ever be reciprocated, at least not in this current existence, ... "to give" ... and expect nothing in return, a one-way transaction(?).

In order to be strong enough to not expect anything in return (validation), the caregiver must already possess his/her own strong inner self esteem (armor plated), ... so that no matter the 'fiery arrows' the pbd/npd launch at the caregiver, it has no outward evidence of penetration, ... man, that's deep huh, ... emotionally self sufficient, strong constitution/homeostasis(?), ... 

"All Good"

~Red

[SaltyDawg]

I too am a believer.  I do forgive, but I do NOT forget. 

Part of my 'radical acceptance' is 'radical forgiveness'.

One of the components of my version of radical acceptance is to pre-forgive, in essence, I know the reality of my situation is that my wife will eventually transgress against me in the form of gas lighting when she is splitting me black. Since I know this to be a fact [based on historical patterns], I know this is going to happen again, as long as I know that she is not deliberately doing this, and I see that she is being triggered by external forces; therefore, I have already forgiven her for what she does not know that she is about to do. That's what makes it radical.

Part of radical acceptance is "Once individuals can accept reality [forgiveness] while simultaneously not approving of it is when change can be made" and I have added forgiving her in the accepted part of reality, even though I do not approve of her actions and will state as much when it is happening to me.

In essence I have mentally compartmentalized my wife's bad behavior as being attributable to her mental state of mind, and she is 'not guilty by reason of insanity' literally, and that is how I treat it when she splits me black.

====

Red,

   Excellent that you are able to differentiate between the 'caregiver' and the 'caretaker' -  I love your perspective, it is very refreshing and definitely from a different angle, it makes it so much easier to understand all the dynamics going on.

   I have heard of the last 4 of the borderline types; however, can you enlighten me on the following ones:

*Waif
*Hermit
*Queen
*Witch

I am a 'sponge' for knowledge and I am learning as much as I can.

[Don Gato]

   Very wise words, thanks so much for your thoughtful
reply. I would like to learn more about the subtypes.Can someone please tell me if the regression to
little girl talk is also a symptom of BPD, or NPD?
I remember now another episode of that where we were talking about something innocuous, and she got triggered and extremely angry abruptly and said "I need you to leave now!" Her eyes went black. So I got up grabbed my jacket and headed for her door, and just as I was about to turn the knob and walk out I hear a little girl voice behind me say "No you can stay, please stay" and I looked back at her on the couch and she had an innocent little smile on her face. I thought about the episode later and to me it sounded again like she didn't want a parent to leave her alone. I had never experienced that behavior before. I'd say in ten months of our one sided relationship she talked that way about ten times. If anyone has some good articles, books, or videos on this I'd be very appreciative.

[Red5]

Salty,

Check this link,
https://www.bpdfamily.com/book-reviews/understanding-borderline-mother

That book was on YouTube (audio) about four years ago,… but I could not find it tonight,… perhaps a deeper search on the desktop, not my iPhone.

Don,… I have also heard the “little girl talk”,… this is more evidence of the “inner wounded child” theories I have read so much about, the wounded inner child, ‘little girl’ is eternally guarded over by the “false self”…. I have also seen my wife’s eyes go black, like a cat who is about to claw its prey,… pretty creepy.

*straight up hot unfiltered anger, rage….full on*

Not sure if it is forbidden here,…. but I have also read a lot about ‘deliverance ministry’,…. I will just stop right there on this topic.
*manifestation
*infestation
*oppression
*possession

Continuing…. There is another YouTube channel, that used to be mentioned here in the information library links,….
* BorderlinerNotes *

Lots of big names there, in the YT site/channel:
*Yeomans
*Linehan (creator of dialectical behavior therapy (DBT)
*Kernberg
*Fonagy

Good hunting,…. Knowledge = Deliverance

~Red

P.S.

Have ya’ll read this book?, it also has an article here on bpdfamily deep in the reference library…

Authors:
Paul Mason, MS and Randi Kreger

*here is the entire book (audio) x 8+ hours,…. link->

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQNsbP6Q7b4




 

[Don Gato]

  Red, I just read Dr.Karl Payne's excellent book on demonization of disordered people. "Spiritual Warfare-Demonization and Deliverance"
Even as a Christian growing up I was always a bit skeptical of the Bob Larson extreme exorcism types, but after some things I personally felt and witnessed with my ex and her behavior, I'm a believer now. Would love to chat with you sometime. Your post just gave me chills. I also read old Bob Larson's book "Jezebel- defeating your #1 spiritual enemy"
So I do have a theory on this, some who are not religious will probably laugh it off. But I will pose this question.

If you do believe demons can more easily oppress and possess people with mental illnesses this may make some sense. I also do believe demons come in doors opened by sin.
So what easier door could there be for a demon to enter than a vulnerable, traumatized child's mind abused by an adult through sin? Perhaps some narcissists walking around are demonically influenced.
In my case, just too many strange coincidences happened with my ex who ironically claimed to be a devout Christian when I met her.
The solid "black eyes" thing is a picture I just cannot get out of my head. Same with the creepy, random little girl voice. I guess watch some deliverance ministry sometime and you can formulate your own opinion.   

 

[SaltyDawg]

Salty,

Check this link,
https://www.bpdfamily.com/book-reviews/understanding-borderline-mother

That book was on YouTube (audio) about four years ago,… but I could not find it tonight,… perhaps a deeper search on the desktop, not my iPhone.

Thank you for the link with the brief descriptions of each, if you can find the YT audio link that would be greatly appreciated as I would like to learn more.

Regarding the "little girl talk" ["inner wounded child"] I have not heard it from my pwBPD and might be described by a condition other than BPD that I am unaware of.  What you described with the eyes I saw a 'horror' movie many years ago as a kid [1980's] with a little girl just like that, which is freaky, it is hard to imagine meeting something like that in real life without any real experience in this area.  Is it demonic possession?  I have read somewhere that demons, like the ones that you guys have described, must be 'invited in' - no sane person in their right mind would do that -- BPD is not sane when it is triggered.  Demons are only talked about in the New Testament, and then predominately in the four gospels.  Do either of you know of a practitioner that casts out demons of this nature?

I have seen the "*straight up hot unfiltered anger, rage….full on*"; however, I have seen this 'rage' tempered and controlled with therapy - this is by far the most impressive change in my wife's behavior that I have seen, the brits have an appropriate term, I was 'gobsmacked' when I saw this change, the psychological change was much like casting out a demon; however, it was from a secular practitioner.

Here is the link to the YT channel that you mentioned, https://www.youtube.com/@BorderlinerNotes has some really good stuff in it and is actively adding content to it; however, one must filter some of the content as many are borderlines themselves doing self-awareness type stuff which misses a bit.

Thank you for providing the "the stop walking on eggshells" is for an older edition, which lacks the assessment tool that is found in the 3rd edition of "Stop Walking on Eggshells" which I found to be invaluable.

[Don Gato]

   "Do either of you know of a practitioner that casts out demons of this nature"

Well, probably the most famous one is old Bob Larson.
He's been casting demons out of people since I could
walk.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uy30EVrOhhU

There's also as I mentioned Dr. Karl Payne who wrote that excellent book I cited in a previous comment. He was the former chaplain of the Seattle Seahawks NFL team. There's also some younger guys doing delivery ministry these days like Vlad Savchuk on Youtube.

It's a touchy subject for sure. You never want to just tell someone "You are demon possessed!" That can make an already serious mental illness even worse, and it's just plain morally wrong. Always best to get a professional evaluation and diagnoses first.

My experience is unique because I know what I saw. I'm not crazy. If you do any research on the subject of demonization in mental disorders, you will probably come across the name "Jezebel" and then you're going down the rabbit hole into some dark stuff.
All I can say is my disordered ex who claimed to be a Christian when I met her, was influenced by something evil.
It all started when she all of a sudden became interested in visiting haunted places, and reading occult and supernatural books. Particularly she had an obsession with the house where Nirvana singer Kurt Cobain apparently committed suicide which is about 25 min away from where we lived in Seattle. She kept wanting to go there.
Sometime later that month she frantically called me over because she had some very weird occurrences.
She said she had stepped out of the shower into her bedroom and heard some loud knocks on the walls and she freaked out. There are no neighbors next to her apt.
When I got over there she then told me the story of what happened the night before. She said she was awakened suddenly by the feeling someone was slapping her in the face! I tried to be the voice of reason and said it may have just been a dream, or her cat's tail smacking her, but she insisted no and she thought she heard a man's voice.
Now I had just started going back to church regularly mainly to pray for her chronic illness that was making her sick all the time, and for these events to stop.
In the following months she began to be more and more hostile to my church invites, would say things like "I feel God is punishing me" "If I ever go back to church I will just go straight to the front and cry"
Things just got worse and worse. One Sunday morning I was just watching a random Christian music video on Youtube, and she came into the room and said "Change that now I don't want to hear that!" She was visibly angry. The last night I spent with her I had my own encounter. I was awoken by some male voice saying "she's mine!" And I feel like it might have been her talking in her sleep. It freaked me out so badly I went downstairs and just sat on her couch until the morning. I remember texting my mom that morning, and she told me to get out of there. And that was the last time I saw her. A few months later I was chatting with a pastor friend in Florida, and he said he felt in his spirit she was under the control of a high principality spirit called "Jezebel", and to completely detach because this spirit wants to destroy me, and keep me from praying for her deliverance. I understand this is going to be hard for some to digest especially if you are not religious. I'm only truthfully relaying what happened to me. I still don't understand it, and maybe never will as I move forward.  There's much more that happened later involving her trying to ruin my reputation with her unjust smear campaign, but that's the gist of it.

[Red5]

Read about Queen Jezebel, King Ahab’s wife (OT - Kings & NT Revelation)

…..very very interesting.

I have been studying about “Jezebel” for about four years now.

#spirit of//

What you are both writing; is what I think happens.

When a little child is attacked, abused,… with no defense,… this is what we see, as evil consuming innocence.

#vamperic

When this happens, a portal is opened, and evil enters.

The religious/spiritual world calls this “spiritual warfare”, (deliverance) the secular world calls this personality disorders (psychopathy),…. like the really dark stuff,… the Catholic Church calls this Exorcism//

“The Catechism of the Catholic Church states: "When the Church asks publicly and authoritatively in the name of Jesus Christ that a person or object be protected against the power of the Evil One and withdrawn from his dominion, it is called exorcism."

“Darkness”
*dark tirade
*psychopath/sociopath
*anti-social pd
*overt (cerebral and somatic narcissist)
*machiavellianism

As stated, this gets into some really dark stuff,… no “milk toast” here.

Be careful….

As the dark recoils in the light, evil (demonic) recoils and lashes out at the Savior's name spoken (scripture)….

I have experienced this first hand, and it is scary, but very validating.

My first wife was sexually abused as a little girl, age 5-13,…. she was baptized when we married, but then she denounced Christ, and has proclaimed as an unbeliever.

Interim GF was an orphan (abandoned),… as well I am pretty sure, also an incest victim. She claimed Christianity, but was to me a classic queen bpd, sometimes she presented as a the “witch bpd”,…. scary.

Wife No.2 (current marriage) most definitely experienced some kind of abuse in her childhood,… that has not been fully disclosed to me yet, but all the signs are there, from what she has let slip out over the years, as well pieces of information I have picked up from her FOO over the last sixteen years. She is a professing Christian,… but does reject the Scriptures as they pertain to marriage unions (covenants),…. Her very voice seems to take on a “male” report (tone) when she would rebuke me, and project/gaslight me…. as I ask her to read a certain NT Scripture….

In all these cases of bpd (npd as protective shield) most of, if not all…. experienced some degree of abuse as a child,… or else a traumatic event (trauma) … even post childhood.

The best ‘treatment’ for BPD is DBT (dialectical behavior therapy),… {M. Linehan}.

“Dialectical behavior therapy (DBT) was developed by Marsha Linehan in 1993. It is based on classical cognitive behavior therapy (CBT). DBT combines standard cognitive behavioral techniques for emotional regulation with other concepts such as distress tolerance, acceptance, and mindful awareness.”

But,… like an addict (possessed),… can go through extensive rehab,… only to be triggered and execute a complete 180, and collapse back into their addictions.

Such is the case of a non malignant, left of spectrum (treatable) bpd,… the DBT does not “change them”, but teaches them coping skills, iot “control” their thoughts/behaviors.

They too, could relapse at any time.

I am not trained expert, or a clinician… only a traveler in this universe of information which I study, and absorb,… to try to learn the “why”.

#discernment

We all must do the same, learn all we can, share,… and move forward as it concerns our each and every unique experience with these souls we have come into (life) contact with.

~Red5

[Red5]

Inner familia, abuse (all kinds), is always (seems) generational,…passed down from each generation to the next.

Look for it, as it is always there.

You will see the pattens (signs of) if you look and listen.

*broken marriages, inner family relationships.
*split families, multiple offspring by different fathers either present or absent.
*all manner of psychological issues, problems.
*destructive behaviors, and results of same.
*untimely deaths of parents, as well siblings…. and immediate families.
*substance abuses, addictions, to the point of destruction (death).
*all manner of health issues; barrenness, miscarriages, cancers, issues of the heart and blood.
*inability to effectively socially interact, other than in a dysfunctional way.
*constant inability to support, financial… home-bed-board.
*constant familia disorder, discontent…. trauma, drama, and chaos.

#generationally cursed?

There is an old minister (UK, South African?) Derrick Prince, who is long deceased now, but his preaching on ‘generational curses’ (YT) is well worth a listen.

Red5

[SaltyDawg]

Don,

   Thank you for relating your personal story - scary, freaky, stuff.

Red,

   Thank you for reminding me of the story of Jezebel (& Baal[-Zebub]) Biblical reference(s).

Both,

    It is generational, I am aware of at least 4 generations on my (uBPD) wife's side that do not sit well with me.

    I also suspect some kind of abuse (probably sexual), based on her mother's behaviors towards me that are only targeted at me. Based on my own observations, my individual T's also give it a >50% chance - I am 90%+ based on her mother's behaviors and my wife's behaviors what happened when my wife gave me her 'virginity' at the time and her hypersexual/hyposexual activity flop when I went from being my wife's lover to the father of our then unborn child.

    My wife is currently reading multiple books on those that have changed their gender.  She also says to me on numerous occasions since we have been together for two+ decades, "I think like a man, and you think like a woman".  She is not offended when I asked her in a therapy setting if she was 'bisexual' after referencing these books.  The therapist seemed genuinely gobsmacked that my wife wasn't offended by this question - which tells me she is seriously considering this.  The T also told my wife, that she needs to let me know if she plans on going this direction.  My wife said, she wants to 'understand them' [the deviants, as normal], while completely blowing off our relationship.  At a minimum she has her current priorities mixed up, although it is more likely she is considering 'switching sides', or at the extreme becoming a man - she has not communicated this with me.  [If anyone reading this that identifies as bi-sexual / homosexual / transgendered, I am interested in your thoughts on this matter - is this how you became oriented the way you are?]

    No mention of the occult, no ghost hunting (I had an exgf who is dADD who did this after we split up), no 'inner child' type voices; however, she does talk in her sleep from time to time, and it is in the form of mumbling - she is aware of it and did so from a child according to her and her mother.   She is not ticklish; however, I used to be very ticklish; however, with all of the crap that my wife has drug my $$ through, I have become a lot less ticklish.

    Just a few more vexing observations on my own current situation with my wife.

    Thoughts?

Salty

   

[Notwendy]

My BPD mother also does the "little girl voice" at times. Also the "look" those dark eyes - which to me signal that she's dissociated.

When she is in her dissociated state, it is as if she were possessed or in another personality. It is quite dramatic. I haven't thought of this as being possessed by a demon though.

I also don't think of intergenerational curse. I don't think the next generation of innocent babies are responsible for the behavior of the adults. However, being in 12 step co-dependency groups, I have learned that family patterns of behavior can be seen in generations. It's not only that there's one person with a disorder. The children will learn behaviors that are adaptive and functional in their family unit but can be dysfunctional as adults. In my situation, being co-dependent and walking on eggshells was "normalized". Kids only know what they see growing up. This becomes their "normal". Genetics has a role but it seems to be a nature/nurture influence. But I don't believe in any curses and for adult children, if we learned maladaptive behaviors as kids, we can learn different ones as adults.

I wonder ( but have no proof) if my BPD mother was abused as a child/teen due to how she dissociates. Dissociation is a defense mechanism that is seen in abuse.

For Salty Dawg- the current information on transgender was not available until recently. My BPD mother did read the current popular psychology books of her era and would "explain" us through the terms in the book. I don't know if she's reading them now but these are unfamiliar ideas to her generation.

[Don Gato]

       Perhaps there is a biological answer to the freaky black eyes in disordered people when they dissociate, or get angry. Found this, though I still think there's something more on the spiritual side. I still get chills thinking about it.

"Biologically speaking, when a predator is evaluating it's prey, the pupils dialate. Look at a picture of a feline about to pounce, the pupils dilate, and the eyes appear almost black. Take the pupil dilation into account, and add the
intensity of hatred and malice that would put the sun to shame, and voila, black eyes! Far from being dead, I see them as black holes trying to suck in and destroy whatever is in front of them. After all when you see them, just know that the person with them is intent on your absolute destruction"

I still think the "little girl" voice is creepy, and possibly has some demonic influence. More research needs to be done.

[Red5]

( Don Gato quote)

I still think the "little girl" voice is creepy...

Yup, ... I heard that little girl from my first wife (No.1), ... always after some major dysfunctional action, or event ... like when she came back home, and announced that she wanted an open marriage, ... and I refused; and told her that if this was her idea of "fixing our marriage", then I wanted out.

I had her served with divorce papers the next week (result of continual decline, serial adultry), ... she then took all her pills, and started carving on her wrist with an old box cutter, ... and that's when I heard the 'little girl' begging me, saying she was "sorry" ... to this day, makes me a bit uneasy, ... that occurred in the spring of 1995.

My wife No.2, ... she had (has still?) this really high pitched 'little girl voice', ... and when that came out, (usually when she was stone drunk) when she talked to me, she would call me "daddy", ... yeeesh, ... it was like fingernails going down a chalkboard, and just as un-nerving.

I was reading on another blog, years ago, ... and the writer was relaying how; when your bpd (speaking to the man to woman here), ... when she started to 'dysregulate', ... eg' lose it, ... in about 10-15 seconds he said, ... " you can actually see, and hear, the "little girl" come out", ... and that is who you are now facing, arguing with, ... 10-15 seconds ...

And then que white/hot rage, screaming - yelling, throwing things, pushing, slapping, & hitting you ... that is when the (my wife) eyes start to sparkle (my wife No.2), and then her pupils would dilate, and go black ... her eyes were (are) a beautiful sparkling brown.

Red5

[Turkish]

My wife is currently reading multiple books on those that have changed their gender.  She also says to me on numerous occasions since we have been together for two+ decades, "I think like a man, and you think like a woman".

My ex never considered herself other than straight, though her younger sister did flirt with being bi-sexual when are was younger. Both had major dad issues...

My ex used to say, "sometimes I feel like the man in the relationship!" To which I wanted to quip, "you mean an aggressive, condescending  ? "

Being raised by a single mother who never had boyfriends and only married when I was 29, she may have had a point... in that I related better with women as a friend.

She also comes from a machismo culture and despite saying that she'd never date a man from that culture ("cheaters and beaters") that was what was familiar with.

[Don Gato]

  I've been reading up more on Borderline "fear of engulfment" and it actually makes sense.

"A pwBPD does not have a fully formed self of their own, and the one that's there is unstable, so if a pwBPD gets too close to someone emotionally, feelings of losing themselves, their self, entirely, show up and they fear being engulfed in the other person, so they don't exist at all, and become part of that other person."

I theorize the "narcissist" side of Borderlines are the ones who will do the cruelest things to intimate partners without blinking an eye. So if I understand this right when a person with BPD "acts out" from a trigger they become a secondary psychopath. Whatever actual empathy they may have disappears, and they will do whatever is necessary to meet their immediate infantile needs with no remorse. Cheat on a partner to feel instantly loved, drink or do drugs to soothe their inner turmoil. Am I right here?

[Turkish]

Yes, but it isn't psychopathy.

This week, my friend told me about his dBPD sister. She visited their grandma who's still healthily kicking it near 90. GM said how glad she was to see her GD after a few years. GD told her that she was moving back to the coast and money would help. The visit was about the GD needing $.

About 8 years ago, I loaned her $1200 to make her rent. She made zero effort to pay me back. No matter. Just come visit me and the kids. I'm 5 minutes off the freeway between the coast and the central valley as she drives by to visit her similarly dysfunctional friends. Still waiting. Her brother told me that her friends likely knew better because she'd gone up and down California borrowing money and not paying it back, especially with her first husband. She had one more and several live in boyfriends. My buddy gifted her his Boxster Porsche and she ruined it.

My mom died a few years ago and she gushed on Facebook how she wanted to be there for me. Still waiting.

Not.

[Don Gato]

   It actually is. Borderlines have an inner psychopath. When a Borderline is triggered and "acts out" they become a secondary psychopath (high anxiety induced emotional instability) Empathy drops out and they are essentially a situational sociopath until they calm down again.
https://academicworks.cuny.edu/gc_etds/851/

[Notwendy]

That's an interesting paper ( I downloaded it to read the entire thing later). It's the first time I have seen this connection between borderline and psychopath behavior written. I have observed it with my BPD mother. There's really no way to resolve any conflict with her because the value "playing field" isn't even. I don't want to hurt her and doing anything deliberate to hurt her feelings is not a consideration. I won't do or say anything that might be hurtful to her. On her part, if she's angry at me, she wants to be hurtful in retaliation she doesn't seem to be concerned about that.

It's probable that this does not apply to a lot of people with BPD who don't want to be hurtful but do that as a result of their fears or self protective behaviors. My mother does these things sometimes too but sometimes her actions are intentional. She knows she's doing them.

[Don Gato]

       Another thing I just remembered is my ex has
Misophonia, where certain sounds triggered her
symptoms. Crunching any kind of food enraged her.
She said her mom has it too. That and
she was constantly re-arranging furniture. It seemed like every week I would go to her apt and her living room would be setup differently. I know this can be associated with OCD.
I was recently watching one of Professor Sam Vaknin's videos on covert narcissists and alcohol. And he basically said a covert narcissist who drinks turns into an overt (grandiose narcissist) then when sober, reverts back and has instant shame and regret. This lines up more with my ex too. I just have not been finding a lot of info on Borderlines who will start smear campaigns just to hurt someone further after they have discarded them for a new supply. This I theorize is why BPD/NPD's are so difficult to diagnose. They seem to fluctuate back and forth between both disorders.

[Red5]

#borderline personality disorder

'born of trauma'

*from left to right, a spectrum*

-waif-hermit-queen-witch-

When the bpd person is at the queen -> witch end of the spectrum; ... you may see 'machiavellian' behaviors.

#dark triad

"machiavellianism, covert/overt narcissism, psychopathy, ...sociopathic behavior" - or worse, psychopathic behaviors ...

*somatic - cerebral {narcissist}*

#psychopath = predisposed, "born this way?"
#sociopath = created (nature-nature?), or else born of trauma.

#malignancy

The DSMV, cluster B listings ... wow : (

This is deep within the labyrinth of bpdfamilie's research library, can be found using an internet 'key word search".

Understanding the Borderline Mother
Author: Christine Ann Lawson, Ph.D.
Publisher: Jason Aronson, Inc.; July 1, 2002
ISBN-13: 9780765703316

This is fascinating to me, even after having lived within it, being subjugated (unwittingly abused?) by it, ...

One thing is key, after the queen turns into a witch, there is zero (0) empathy now, only punitive levels of punishment, ever increasing.

I think waifs, and hermits may be able to be helped (CBT/DBT), ... at the lower end, the left of center of the spectrum, do possess still, an ability to present (manifest) empathy, ... they most times only abuse themselves (self loathing).

The narcissist element of the borderline is the borderline's defensive program ... I think?

Again... this is all quite fascinating to me now, like I have finally figured some of this it out maybe? ... one things for sure, I now have a degree of immunity to this, these behaviors ... or so I think anyways ...

*manipulation - intimidation - domination - control*

I was locked into this for many many years, over two marriages ...

Only now, ... I need to (introspection) ... understand why I was attracted to it, and why "they" sought me out as well.

#repitition compulsion

I am not a college trained person, and certainly no expert, but I do read quite a lot (analysis paralysis)... I have been at this since that very first 'g-o-o-g-l-e search' back in the summer/fall of 2016, ... I typed something to the effect, ... "why is my wife such a *****" ...

And down the mine shaft I fell ... head first, ... sometimes I feel myself free falling still, ... yes I do.

It is best to, ... live in the "now", ... and not to let yourself ruminate, or else to dwell on "what could have been" ... "if only I had _____" ... how may times have I heard/read, ... the ideation phase was a fake, a facade, ... they were wearing a mask, ... and because we, me, you ... were probably already damaged, we fell for it all, ... only to be caught, in their web, and placed into a box (metaphorically), of control, ... always wanting to return to, longing for, "the way it used to be" ... but now gaslighted, and projected upon, iot try to get me (we-you) to believe that the utter destruction wrought, the failure of; ... was our own faults, because we did not ____ to them.

*intermittent positive reward - operant conditioning*

Red5

[Notwendy]

My BPD mother has taken on all of the different personas, so it's not like only one fits. Most of the time, she seems to be the Queen but if she doesn't get what she wants in Queen persona - she will change to Witch. Witch is scary but if that doesn't work she will go to Waif.

Waif is the hardest for me. She can be so pitiful. It feels so cruel to not give in, especially now that she is elderly. What kind of ogre can resist this tiny elderly woman in her time of need? But sometimes, if I give in, she snaps out of it quickly. Yet, she is elderly and some times is in need and it's so hard to know what is what. Waif is the hardest as it just is so hard to see her upset and to resist enabling her behavior.

I'd be a bit careful about painting everyone with the same brush as Sam Vaknin  although he is certainly interesting and has expertise ( on himself apparently). Apparently he is married so he must have met his match, but I know I can't manage being married to someone like him, and neither can most people.

And neither do you want to be, or you would not have gone through what you did, emotionally. Even if you don't ever figure out your ex, as Red said, ruminating won't help and emotionally recovering and moving on will. The combo NPD and BPD can be difficult. You don't need to know more than you do now to know that your ex has behaviors that seriously impact a relationship with her and now you can move on from this.