Car liability issues with teens and other family

[kells76]

We plan to sell one of our vehicles to SD15, for well under market value (like 1/4 market value) when she is old enough to drive. It's a >15 year old reliable car that H has kept in good shape with regular maintenance and investment in repairs.

The cars at Mom's house do not fare well. One sat with at least a flat tire for almost a year. That is the one that they are fixing up for SD17 to use. Another still has repair shop markings on it from a t-bone accident. Mom is at minimum a distracted driver, but the way the kids tell the stories, it's never her fault. There have been multiple fender benders/hitting people/scraping things -type incidents as long as I've been around.

SD15 is excited about buying this car. She told me that Mom and Stepdad are giving her chores to do to earn money for it. That's fine, no issue there at this point.

Then SD15 said "And they're so excited to drive it too!"

I didn't really pry into that, but my guess would be that Mom and Stepdad see a way to get an insanely good deal on a car that someone else has been taking good care of. This is typical of Mom, at least -- when we have given things to the kids in the past, she uses them (clothes, shoes, etc).

While it feels gross to me, it's not unexpected.

My question is about liability.

SD15 of course could not own the car until she is 18. So unless DH and I give the title to Mom and Stepdad, we would still own the car.

We plan to put SD15 on our car insurance regardless of whether Mom says they are putting SD15 on their car insurance (it would actually surprise me if they pay to add her -- they tend towards "rules are for other people, I'm sure we can get around it"). If I am understanding correctly, insurance follows the car not the driver, so we'd have to do this whether Mom insures her or not.

My concern is -- who is liable if we hold the title, we have said we sold the car to only SD15 as SD15's car, but Mom and/or Stepdad drive it and get in an accident?

As long as we do not give permission to Mom or Stepdad to drive the car that we hold title to, are we okay?

[ForeverDad]

I recently am having to switch insurance carriers.

The agent said that what young adult son would pay separately (if he owned his own car) or what I would pay separately would both be almost as much as we would pay for coverage together.  One of us has a ticket, the other has a couple low speed but expensive repairs.  Insurance carriers charge more accordingly.

Which residence would SD list as her address on her DL?  My insurance queries said that since my adult child lists my address on his DL, as a family member living here he must be a driver on my insurance anyway.

By all means emphasize to your SD that there is a huge cost difference between speeding tickets, the excessive speeding (20+ mph over posted speed limit) is much more expensive on insurance rates and persists for the next 3-5 years, depending on the carrier.

Rates are going up everywhere due to increased claims and more expensive cars and repairs.  I'd suggest you select an agent you trust and run the various scenario variations to determine the least bad options.

Maybe someone here can strategize a solution on preventing the ex side from driving a car you provide.  A lawyer letter?  What would help, price-wise too, is that SD not own her own car, at least for now.

[GaGrl]

The car, on your policy, would have Collision insurance at whatever deductible you choose, so in case of an accident, the car would be repaired. But further than that, my questions would be:

1) Who is liable for injury/damages should Mom or Stepdad be at fault in an accident with injury?

2) Who pays the deductible if Mom and Stepdad are in an accident that requires repairs to the car?

An agent should be able to help you figure it out.

But...ugh. You already know they will take advantage of the situation.

[kells76]

Which residence would SD list as her address on her DL?  My insurance queries said that since my adult child lists my address on his DL, as a family member living here he must be a driver on my insurance anyway.

Mom's house. So, legally SD has to go on Mom's insurance, but again, given the NPD traits ("rules don't apply to us") and BPD traits ("we're poor and marginalized, we can't afford it, just drive anyway") in the Mom-Stepdad dynamic, I can't say I'm 100% certain this will happen. 95% sure she'll be insured, but not 100% sure.

I'd suggest you select an agent you trust and run the various scenario variations to determine the least bad options.

Yes, I think that's what we'll need to do -- hear it directly from our agent.

Maybe someone here can strategize a solution on preventing the ex side from driving a car you provide.  A lawyer letter?  What would help, price-wise too, is that SD not own her own car, at least for now.

Right -- it's sounding like if we don't explicitly have on the record "Mom and Stepdad, we do not grant permission for you to use this car", then there may be implied permission, which may mean we're liable. I am not looking forward to having to write that email, but if we get there we get there.

[kells76]

The car, on your policy, would have Collision insurance at whatever deductible you choose, so in case of an accident, the car would be repaired. But further than that, my questions would be:

1) Who is liable for injury/damages should Mom or Stepdad be at fault in an accident with injury?

2) Who pays the deductible if Mom and Stepdad are in an accident that requires repairs to the car?

An agent should be able to help you figure it out.

But...ugh. You already know they will take advantage of the situation.

Yeah, it's good to hear from multiple voices that this needs to go to our insurance agent, as it's not a boilerplate "now that your teen is driving" scenario... it's "now that your teen's mom wants to drive your teen's car"...

...

Part of me feels like it'd be "giving in" or "rolling over" to sign the title over to them -- like "letting them win" by sneakily getting the car that should be for SD15, for themselves instead.

But it would take us out of any conflict or liability that comes up. I don't look forward to a potential conflict over "but why can't you just let Mom have the title, it's not a big deal, and anyway, it's my car".

I don't know if there's a good way to bring SD15 into thinking this through and making that decision for herself. If it's framed as "who do you want to hold the title for you, Mom or Dad" then she'd say Mom -- out of loyalty.

If it's framed as "okay, so whoever holds the title is going to have to pay for maintenance, and repairs, and insurance, and gas, and XYZ, and is going to be liable for anything that happens to the car even if you're driving... so who do you think you would want to do maintenance on the car? who do you think could keep the car running for you to use?" then maaaaayyyyybeeee she might say "Dad, I guess".

It'd be bringing her into what shouldn't be her decision (an adult has to hold the title, she can't) but she's already been brought into adult decisions her whole life.

She does have many autistic type traits so it is difficult to know at what level to involve her.

[ForeverDad]

So I'm guessing her primary address to be listed on her DL will be her mom's address?  Until she's 18 it would likely be the custody order's primary address?

That's the knot I'm dealing with, in reverse.

• Mom owns the car S is driving, she provides coverage
• S's DL lists my address
• The car is "garaged" at my address (most often here)
• I have him listed as a driver (my address & my policy)
• If an accident, her insurance will sue my insurance and my insurance will sue her insurance... agent says they'll sue each other until they eventually settle... I still worry whether both insurances would deny coverage for an accident?

Another worry... if the car is in her name, what's to prevent her from selling/gifting it to her mother/SF?  Could you hold a lien on the car, such as 1/4 payment and 1/2 "loan" that can eventually be signed off?  Would you need to hold the vehicle's title as security?  (May have to require small periodic loan repayments since otherwise it might be judged a sham loan, ask the agent.)  That way she can't change ownership without you closing out the loan?