New to Posting; need specific help

[FenceJump]

I’ve been reading this board for years looking for insight into my relationship and tbh, knowing I am not alone in this struggle.

My H is not diagnosed and never will be. He despises therapy/therapists. Years ago he made an argument that sounded quasi reasonable but I see now as an excuse bc I believe he knows he would be “found out”.

He has anger issues flipping from happy/pleasant to mean and vile. And worse, like a dog with a bone, won’t let go once he’s angry.

It permeates through his life, although he’s fairly successful.  But, most is also directed at me.

We’ve been married for 32 years.  It wasn’t so bad in the beginning, more just some weird incidents that were fewer and farther between making them easier to brush off.

There were years that were truly miserable but w/o going into all the details, I didn’t feel I could leave.

Over the last few years I have practiced JADE. It can be hard sometimes bc things that seem entirely innocuous somehow manage to trigger him. 

I’ve also learned to stand up for myself more and let him work through his feelings. I’ve put in a few boundaries — topics I won’t discuss (he knows how to hurt me) and that I will leave the room if he raises his voice, etc.

It got better but over time, he slips back, little by little to bad behavior.

So here are two things that occur more often that I’m hoping for some advice to handle.

We usually talk at some point during the day and half the time it’s a fairly typical conversation. Half the time he gets angry and it turns into him ranting at me from a perceived insult. I find it harder to manage on the phone. Hanging up is akin to leaving the room but he often doesn’t hear me say I’m going to get off if he continues berating me. So hanging up seems to be harder for him to settle his feelings than leaving the room. Any suggestions?

I can minimize the calls to necessity, which is probably the best idea. Tbh, I don’t think he would ever call me if I didn’t call him.

The next problem I think is harder and may be the final determining factor if I can stay married.

He rewrites history and over time takes responsibility for every positive and shifts blame from anything less than. He 99% of the time does not take responsibility unless caught in the “act” but will either come up with some crazy reason it’s not his fault or in 6 months, it’s turned around.

When I’ve said that’s not what happened, he says we should start recording our conversations.  I am agreeable but it never happens. My point though is that I think he actually believes these things.

I am not saying he is all bad or always wrong but as I’m older I just don’t want daily/weekly turmoil for minor things turned major.

Suggestions to help redirect behavior?  I know I likely need to change my behavior to get a different response, but how far and is it sustainable…idk.

Any suggestions are welcome.


 

[ForeverDad]

 
Welcome, we appreciate your presence and sharing in peer support.  As a community we do help ourselves by sharing our hard-won collective wisdom.

JADE (Justify, Argue, Defend, Explain) works best when the other person is not upset and angry.  That's because it can be so hard for the other to listen to reason... and us.  There are other approaches and they too have acronyms.

Some of them are SET, DEARMAN and BIFF.  These and other topics work better when the other person is so ranting that he/she essentially isn't in a mood to listen to explanations.

Here's a link to the directory on our Tools and Skills workshops board.  Among the dozens of discussions are a variety of ways to approach and deal with the discord we face.

[Pook075]

Hello and welcome to the family.  I'm so sorry you're going through this and I wish there were better answers.  I will take a quick stab at the two concerns you raised though:

I can minimize the calls to necessity, which is probably the best idea. Tbh, I don’t think he would ever call me if I didn’t call him.

Problem #1- half the time, he's a jerk on the phone...although he never calls you.  So you're initiating these conversations even though 50% of the time, he rages and blames you for various things. 

How do we fix problem #1 completely in just one simple step?  Stop calling unless there's a topic that has to be discussed in the moment.

He rewrites history and over time takes responsibility for every positive and shifts blame from anything less than. He 99% of the time does not take responsibility unless caught in the “act” but will either come up with some crazy reason it’s not his fault or in 6 months, it’s turned around.

Question- which is more important to you?

1- Being right.
2- Being happily married.

If your choice is #1, then fight away against his narratives.  He's wrong, he's delusional, and he always has to be the victim.  Call him on it every time and don't give an inch.

If your choice is #2, then right or wrong doesn't matter...especially when it comes to the past. What matters is the present and making the most out of your relationship.  So stop arguing, stop trying to rewrite his history (which is real to him...even if it's not to everyone else). He changes these narratives out of a victim mentality to justify his words and actions- this is the root of the problem.  Accept that and let the vast majority of that stuff go through forgiveness.

The thing is, choice #1 and choice #2 are going to lead your marriage on two very different paths.  You have to choose only one path since they're polar opposite things due to how his mind works.  For your own sanity, you must choose only one.

I hope that helps!

[FenceJump]

Thank you ForeverDad,

I do try to preemptively not JADE.  Sometimes it is tricky bc he often says “why this” or “why that” and with every other person I encounter, I can answer why but with him, I can’t.

If he asks “why did you leave the bins out”, if I say “last month we left them out and thought we agreed it worked fine, so thought I’d leave them out again.”  He will start an argument that he never agreed and then spirals to I don't listen or care how he feels ever instead of just saying he'd rather they weren't left out.

But on top of it he interrupts a lot and if he'd let me finish, he might not get upset. It’s just super hard to switch the way I speak only to him.

I’ll look at some of the other communication skills and see what might work. Thanks again.

[FenceJump]

ThanksPook075,

The info is helpful and I do appreciate your point.

Is there a 3rd option where I don’t have to be right but also don’t have to have reality distorted?

I believe people are entitled to their beliefs and may have differing perceptions which may be enhanced over time. But then there are whole cloth mistruths. Do I think he believes them? Yes, I do. But because the reality to admit he made a mistake is too difficult for him.

I am not a fighter and I am happy to agree to disagree but when you tell me that I did something that I didn’t do; it’s not about being right, it’s about at least some shade of reality.

So, is the second option what most SOs of a pwBPD do to keep a happy marriage, just accept the distorted reality?

I’m willing to try to not correct incorrect statements about myself and see if it brings happiness. I fear it may end up making me feel inferior, incapable and plummet self esteem.

Will think on this. Thanks.

[SaltyDawg]

He rewrites history and over time takes responsibility for every positive and shifts blame from anything less than. He 99% of the time does not take responsibility unless caught in the “act” but will either come up with some crazy reason it’s not his fault or in 6 months, it’s turned around.

When I’ve said that’s not what happened, he says we should start recording our conversations.  I am agreeable but it never happens. My point though is that I think he actually believes these things.

I am not saying he is all bad or always wrong but as I’m older I just don’t want daily/weekly turmoil for minor things turned major.

Suggestions to help redirect behavior?  I know I likely need to change my behavior to get a different response, but how far and is it sustainable…idk.

Any suggestions are welcome.

FenceJump,



My BPD wife has taunted me to record our conversations as well, so I did.  You can use your cell phone to do so; however, I do not recommend confronting him directly with it.  I used it to see how I pre-triggered my wife before she deregulated (becomes irrational with a false narrative).  I have learned her pre-triggered state, and have learned how to back off triggering her further.  I keep the recordings, especially when she exhibits full blown borderline episodes, and to keep a document trail of her abusive behaviors, I keep backup copies, that she does not have access to.

Now for communicating with your pwBPD...

If they are dysregulated, cannot be rationed or reasoned with, do the following - keep it BIFF - Brief, Informative, Friendly and Factual, be in control of the conversation using a calm voice showing no anger at all (don't let him know you are really upset about this, as you don't want to reinforce his negative behavior).  Be supportive with empathy, and validate his emotional feelings only.  Do not validate the invalid, the false narrative.  Say something like "I am sorry you feel that I have upset you" which is validating his feelings.

With blame shifting that is a bit more complicated, you cannot really justify, argue, defend, or explain (JADE) what happened without ticking him off.  So, you will have to use "I" statements, and avoid saying "you", and speak your truth, when he is regulated (rational).  A common blame-shifting complaint of a borderline is "you NEVER do anything for me" this is their way of expressing the 'feeling empty' symptom.  Perhaps say something along the lines of "I do a, b, c, d, e, & f today ['yesterday', if this is the first thing in the morning].  I feel that I am doing a lot for our relation by doing these things.  What am I missing?"  This will force him to think of specific things that you are not doing, and will force him to articulate it - if he is really intelligent, he will realize that you are indeed doing a lot of things, which is in direct conflict with his statement, for my wife, she usually backs down when I do this, as she realizes her statement is not true, while I do not directly call her a pathological liar, the way I present it, without affixing blame strongly implies it - which is shameful to the borderline to the point they will more often than not admit they are wrong with an apology, so they remain silent on this".

Be sure to set boundaries on circular arguments (stop it after one or two cycles), and do not JADE when he is irrational / dysregulated.

If you want more examples, or have more question, please come back and reach out to us.

In the meantime, please be sure to fill your own emotional cup, with self-care whatever that might look like for you.

Take care.

SD

[Pook075]

ThanksPook075,

The info is helpful and I do appreciate your point.

Is there a 3rd option where I don’t have to be right but also don’t have to have reality distorted?

I believe people are entitled to their beliefs and may have differing perceptions which may be enhanced over time. But then there are whole cloth mistruths. Do I think he believes them? Yes, I do. But because the reality to admit he made a mistake is too difficult for him.

I am not a fighter and I am happy to agree to disagree but when you tell me that I did something that I didn’t do; it’s not about being right, it’s about at least some shade of reality.

So, is the second option what most SOs of a pwBPD do to keep a happy marriage, just accept the distorted reality?

I’m willing to try to not correct incorrect statements about myself and see if it brings happiness. I fear it may end up making me feel inferior, incapable and plummet self esteem.

Will think on this. Thanks.

The goal is to move past that stuff entirely and stop arguing about the past.  And don't get me wrong, that's very difficult to do at times, especially when someone is angry and yelling/ranting/blaming.  As long as you're focusing on the words, you'll respond to the words only and miss the bigger picture.

For example, let's say we're hanging out and out of nowhere, I start freaking out- "My hand is on fire!  Oh my gosh, it hurts so bad..."

You look at my hand and there's nothing apparently wrong.  No burn marks or discoloration.  No bite marks.  No swelling or bruising.  It looks the same as my other hand. You might think to say, "There's nothing wrong with you."  Yet I'm acting like I'm in agony.  What do you do?

You're looking at this from the perspective that there's either something wrong with my hand, or there's not.  All the focus is on the hand, so to speak, when it should be on the emotions driving my behavior.  In this case, you can comfort me without calling me a liar or questioning my motives.  You can grab ice...or Tylenol...or ask me what I need to get through this.  The main treatment people look for is acceptance and support, even if there is no clear answer on how to proceed.

With your husband, he's bringing up the past because he's hurt and wants to be supported.  It's the same thing as my physical injury to my hand- you don't have to see it or even understand it to think, "Oh wow, he seems to be in real pain here."  Your husband has mental injuries to his ego, his self conscious, etc. and that's what drives his behavior.

Your husband has been hurting for a long time and you're getting the 'aftershocks', so to speak, of him not being able to deal with whatever.  If you focus on his words, that's invalidating him and keeping him upset/unstable.  That's why there's nothing to gain from arguing...the more you're right, the more it hurts him or pushes him away.  Arguing is a zero-sum game because he's likely incapable of saying he was wrong and letting it go.  Even when you win, you ultimately lose.

If you focus on his emotions and react to that, he becomes more stabilized and focuses less on the past narratives.  Just like the situation with my hand, you have to move past surface level and focus on the root of the problem...his unstable emotions.  That's where the problems come from, not feeling validated and heard.  And while there's turmoil, that's where history gets rewritten.

Does that make sense?

[kells76]

Is there a 3rd option where I don’t have to be right but also don’t have to have reality distorted?

To continue to fill out the discussion, Yes -- a way to safely connect with a pwBPD is through emotional validation.

We often come here with some preconceived ideas about what "validation" is -- that it's accepting distorted realities to keep the peace, etc. Fortunately, true emotional validation is a healthy choice! And, it is not any of the following:

pretending that what he said is true
not saying anything, but fuming inside
placating him
apologizing for things you didn't do
repeated, incessant apologies for things you did do
appeasing him
trying to make him happy
being positive
reassuring him
using clinical language: "I understand you feel angry. Tell me more about that" (as you aren't his therapist)
trying to get a certain response or reaction from him

Like Pook075 mentioned here:

As long as you're focusing on the words, you'll respond to the words only and miss the bigger picture.

The bigger picture -- critical for true emotional validation -- is that he is feeling something, yet may struggle to express it clearly or healthily. Our task when interacting with a pwBPD, if we want to maintain or improve the relationship, is to find ways to positively and safely connect. Finding the feelings behind his words, and validating the feelings (not his facts, or "facts") -- and doing that genuinely -- will be critical.

We don't recommend validating the invalid. An example of that would be if he's complaining about something a neighbor did (that you aren't sure actually happened), if you said "wow, when Neighbor Bob yelled at you and stole the lawnmower, that must have been pretty upsetting!"

That's agreeing with the facts in his narrative, when what's more important is connecting to the feelings behind whatever words he's chosen to express himself.

Using true emotional validation in that scenario would look like: "Wow, that sounds upsetting". And then leaving it there. Less is more, sometimes. Or, saying "Nobody likes being yelled at." (you aren't agreeing that he was -- but you can imagine being yelled at, and if you were yelled at, you wouldn't like it -- feelings only).

So, is the second option what most SOs of a pwBPD do to keep a happy marriage, just accept the distorted reality?

I’m willing to try to not correct incorrect statements about myself and see if it brings happiness. I fear it may end up making me feel inferior, incapable and plummet self esteem.

Again, accepting the distorted reality isn't true validation (it won't lead to healthy positive connection) and it makes him the "lead car on the emotional roller coaster". Hitching your well-being to placating, reacting to, and trying to smooth things over with him means that you both stay on the roller coaster. It is a loving thing to do not to participate in his un-reality -- but to connect through what is real, which are his emotions (despite the un-real narratives he may come up with to try to explain his feelings).

Validation can be pretty counter-intuitive -- but so freeing. I've found it really helpful with our kids (my H has two teenagers). Sometimes they say the wackiest stuff and I am now free to connect to the emotions behind their words, without "having to" argue with "I don't think that really happened".

...

What are some specific conversations/interactions you've had recently? If you can post a "he said - she said" type dialogue or transcript, we can help you find where you can best validate the valid, and where to walk away to protect yourself. Validation is for connection, boundaries are for personal protection.

Glad you found us -- keep us in the loop;

kells76

[livednlearned]

Wow, 32 years! That's a good run. BPD expresses itself intensely interpersonally so it makes sense you're experiencing the brunt of his symptoms, which is so unfortunate.

I doubt recording your H will really get to the root of the problem since the issue is about "being right" for him and shining light on his wrongness is likely to wound an ego that can't really handle a lot of wounding. But maybe there is something more collaborative you two can do, like writing down in a shared journal any decisions you make together. "Let's write this one down so we both remember -- our memories aren't as good as they used to be and this way we can refer back to what we agreed to and skip any fussing."

A BPD relationship is a special needs relationship. As his partner (and not that it's fair) you'll have to be the emotional leader and practice radical acceptance. Sometimes you'll be his partner (emotionally regulated), and sometime you'll be his parent (emotionally dysregulated). Like kells76 wrote, there will be times when validation can go a long way, and other times you'll want to redirect him.

Something encouraging is that he seems to take your lead and respect you (even if it's not all the time) -- would you say that's accurate? I was quite surprised to learn in my marriage that being assertive did work, even if the dynamic felt a bit more parent-child than I was comfortable with. So it wasn't there all the time, but it could be there some of the time, and that was better than not at all. We aren't married anymore but the bigger issue was what BPD looks like when mixed with alcohol abuse and prescription drugs  

Are you getting positive feedback elsewhere in your life? That can also make a difference. If you're not feeling appreciated by people, sometimes that can put a lot of strain on more intimate relationships -- especially if you're walking into a verbal buzz at home on a regular basis.

[FenceJump]

Thank you SaltyDawg.

I can’t record well on my phone. He would 100% be pushed over if he knew and I am not talented enough to do it without him knowing. I’ve looked online and they make pens and pins (broaches) that can record and I’ve seriously considered a more discreet option. And then I just feel like I’m heading into very unusual territory.  But I guess it remains an option.

I continue to practice not JADEing. Like most people, life is busy and I trip up most when shifting away from work/kid comms to H comms, especially when I’m exhausted at the end of the day. And some days it feels like he’s just looking to fight.

That said, I have finally learned to walk away after the second spin. It’s likely that I need to do better avoiding that place but when I do end up there, maybe a better exit statement. Sometimes it’s just “I can’t do this”. Mostly bc I can’t do this.

Perhaps you all could help with a repeatable blanket statement that will repeatedly signal him that I’m getting off the merry go round? 

I definitely see giving him space often allows him to calm down. Sometimes he gets angrier.  Maybe bc of how I exited?

I was very slow to understand that something was truly off. I used to say he was reactionary but would generally come around.

I am working on time and things for me. As I claimed for myself, in the beginning, he definitely made comments that I didn’t want to spend time with him.

He is also “jealous” of things done for others, even his own kids (they’re  mine, too).

Step by step. Thank you.

[FenceJump]

Thanks Pook075,

Code:

 The goal is to move past that stuff entirely and stop arguing about the past.  And don't get me wrong, that's very difficult to do at times, especially when someone is angry and yelling/ranting/blaming.  As long as you're focusing on the words, you'll respond to the words only and miss the bigger picture.

This will be hard for me. 

First, I am not bringing up the past and tbh probably move past things faster than I should.

He has huge hangups about my life before him that was in no way remarkable. I have put a firm boundary that I am not discussing 35 years ago on his imagined beliefs.  I don’t say it like that but I’ve set it and he’s been mostly better. We ran into an old boyfriend (from like when I 15-16 years old) about 20 years ago and he dreamed (literally) that I was in love with him and was going to run off with him. Then every time he got mad, he expertly weaved it to my love of X as the cause. When I put the boundary in place, he stopped doing this. That said, he’s had some work stressors lately and now he doesn’t say his name, he just says “your true love”.  I set the boundary and disengage. But how many turns will it take?

But again, for the past, here is how our actual relevant issues come up.

A year ago we switched refuse service. It came down our driveway and they would often spill stuff on the driveway (not our refuse, things like broken glass).  I suggested we move the bins to a spot that wouldn’t be as difficult to clean up (it was never a lot) and would pose less risk to tires. He fired them.

The other refuse services won’t come down the drive. We have a bit longer drive on a slight incline. The bins get heavy when they’re full and I have a hard time taking them up. I asked if he could take them up and I would put them away. He agreed. And then for different reasons he didn’t for a couple of weeks. The first week, I took them up (and brought them down) but the next week didn’t realize he hadn’t until after the truck passed. Fast forward a couple of months and he decides it’s not fair he has to take up the bins (I have some well-known, documented health issues that make it hard for me) and tells me to take them up and he’ll bring them down.

I remind him it’s hard for me and then he says I fired the other refuse service bc I didn’t want to pay more for them to come down the drive. We had them for a few years and had paid for it.

And maybe I could just let that narrative fly (cuz who cares) but I also know when I switch back, we’re going to end up with glass in the drive again. And he’s going to be unhappy. And a few months later, it will have been my decision to bring the glass dumpers back bc I couldn’t drag the bins up. Maybe none of it matters but at the very least it is a huge waste of time that I already have so little of.

But the darker side is the twist when it comes to the kids. And those narratives of the past are harder to let go.

That said, back to first statement, it is hard for me. I am very in tune with feelings. But I also listen to the words and respond to what I hear. It will be the translation to the emotions without actually responding to the words that will be hardest for me.

One other rewriting the past example and why I struggle with it. Our D was on a new team and I made an observation that she seemed uncomfortable with a particular skill crucial to the sport. He said no she was fine. I mentioned it at the next game or so while witnessing it. I even gently asked our D how she was feeling about the sport and she mentioned that this particular skill was uncomfortable and we discussed it just needed more practice. I took her a couple of times to practice just this skill and she felt better. We didn’t mention it bc she was embarrassed (or just wanted to avoid comments) and just let any improvements be the result of team practice.

Towards the end of the season we were talking about how the season went and my H says that he was so glad he identified that she was uncomfortable at the beginning and helped her feel more comfortable, among a few other statements about how he improved her game.

Not earth shattering, but by allowing it to stand, it is a check for him and a demerit for me.  I’m not keeping score, he is. And then he uses that to illustrate that I am not all that great of a mom (along with all the other things I’ve done that he takes credit for). He does other things for the kids and things I couldn’t do. So it’s not like he has nothing to “brag” on but I have been the primary caregiver taking them to doctors, dentists, sports, coaching, play dates, etc.

It’s the line where I end up feeling less than.  These are some of the ways the past haunts me despite not wanting to live there.

[FenceJump]

Kells76,

Thank you.  That all makes sense but is genuinely the hardest for me. It’s not that I’m opposed to it. It’s that I am reflective on true issues and in the “frenzy” I don’t have the luxury of the time to respond thoughtfully so I do get stuck on responding to the words — which in this state are generally at least a few steps from reality, so I am guilty of trying to “fix” reality.

Right now he’s making comments about not taking a trip.  Facts, we took two large trips last year. Needed but our savings are depleted and I expressed that after these trips, it was important to me to build our savings back up. He agreed. There were some rough spots at the start of the year — personally and professionally.  He was saying somewhat outlandish things and I basically told him to let everything settle and then see how he was feeling (he was really sick and busy so just felt driven by fatigue and frustration). We are in the rebuilding phase but have had some big expenses pop up that idk how we’re going to cover but it’s also the kids break and he’s complaining that we didn’t go away. No way we could financially and he knows. And then it is how he works so hard to make money (that constantly gets spent on trips and stuff; why I said I didn’t want to take another trip until savings was at x) so he might just as well quit and go do a job making half the amount.

How do I respond to that?

And btw, he also uses this “threat” a fair amount when he’s threatened divorce (this was mostly curtailed with boundaries and my willingness to contemplate divorce). He says if he drops his income in half, he wouldn’t have to give me alimony. Definitely a “tool” he uses to try to get me to give in. I don’t and generally leave the conversation. It has been a while since he was doing this but I’ve seen the tip of this reappearing lately.

Response to this ?

Really open to improving but sorely lacking these skills.

[FenceJump]

Hi livednlearned,

Thank you for your comments.

I doubt recording your H will really get to the root of the problem since the issue is about "being right" for him and shining light on his wrongness is likely to wound an ego that can't really handle a lot of wounding. But maybe there is something more collaborative you two can do, like writing down in a shared journal any decisions you make together. "Let's write this one down so we both remember -- our memories aren't as good as they used to be and this way we can refer back to what we agreed to and skip any fussing."

We have written a few things down but he’s less willing to lately.

One thing is around money. We’ll discuss how we’re going to manage an expense. Plumbing repair is $800, he can do extra work to cover it (fantastic). He brings the $ home and then wants to spend half on something else. So, something else doesn’t get paid on time and then a month or two later, he doesn’t understand why. I try to minimize this but it creates a lot of angst. He offered to take over bill paying and tried for a month or two but so much stuff got paid late or not at all, that I took it back. I’m trying to do it collaboratively but it’s a moving target.

And when he’s changed the narrative and I bring out the “plan” we had, he gets angry and tells me I wrote it down wrong. I can ask him to write it down but idk if he will.

Suggestions?  Maybe I’m approaching it wrong.

Something encouraging is that he seems to take your lead and respect you (even if it's not all the time) -- would you say that's accurate? I was quite surprised to learn in my marriage that being assertive did work, even if the dynamic felt a bit more parent-child than I was comfortable with. So it wasn't there all the time, but it could be there some of the time, and that was better than not at all. We aren't married anymore but the bigger issue was what BPD looks like when mixed with alcohol abuse and prescription drugs

Yes, assertive does seem to help as long as it doesn’t cross to “bossy”. His words.

Respect?  Not sure about that. I would say mostly no.

Are you getting positive feedback elsewhere in your life? That can also make a difference. If you're not feeling appreciated by people, sometimes that can put a lot of strain on more intimate relationships -- especially if you're walking into a verbal buzz at home on a regular basis.

No, not much support. I don’t have much family left and what I do has been strained beyond bc of my marriage. Much I didn’t understand in the beginning and then took space that just grew over time. My H prefers this. And I’ve never had a friend according to him. I see through it now but I don’t know how to rebuild or build new relationships right now.

Thank you.

[FenceJump]

Clearly made a mess, livednlearned!

I’ll try to fix when I have more time. Is there an edit button somewhere?!

[kells76]

Clearly made a mess, livednlearned!

I’ll try to fix when I have more time. Is there an edit button somewhere?!

(Hi FenceJump -- a hacking incident impacted the "edit" button functionality, which is still being worked on with no ETA for resolution, unfortunately. Staff is happy to help with formatting issues. Don't hesitate to PM us with editing requests  )

[SaltyDawg]

I can’t record well on my phone. He would 100% be pushed over if he knew and I am not talented enough to do it without him knowing. I’ve looked online and they make pens and pins (broaches) that can record and I’ve seriously considered a more discreet option. And then I just feel like I’m heading into very unusual territory.  But I guess it remains an option.

FenceJump

Don't use this unless you think he is going to divorce you, or he is becoming so delusional where he may make false allegations of abuse or something equally impactful to you - that was the dynamic I was facing at the time after my wife taunted me to make recordings, so I did.  I did find out I was being subconsciously gaslit by her, where I was not imagining things, and her narrative changed to match her feelings at the moment.

I continue to practice not JADEing. Like most people, life is busy and I trip up most when shifting away from work/kid comms to H comms, especially when I’m exhausted at the end of the day. And some days it feels like he’s just looking to fight.

That said, I have finally learned to walk away after the second spin. It’s likely that I need to do better avoiding that place but when I do end up there, maybe a better exit statement. Sometimes it’s just “I can’t do this”. Mostly bc I can’t do this.

Perhaps you all could help with a repeatable blanket statement that will repeatedly signal him that I’m getting off the merry go round?

There is no 'repeatable blanket statement' that will repeatedly signal to him that you are getting off the merry go round - he will quickly learn whatever you use, and will counter it.  There was one that I used for a few months, "I would like to take a break from this argument as it seems to be going nowhere, we can resume this first thing tomorrow morning" knowing full well my wife will often reset psychologically after a sleep cycle, as it is something really not worth arguing over.
 

I definitely see giving him space often allows him to calm down. Sometimes he gets angrier.  Maybe bc of how I exited?

My wife also sometimes gets angrier and accuses me of stonewalling if she feels strongly she wants to be heard.
 

I am working on time and things for me. As I claimed for myself, in the beginning, he definitely made comments that I didn’t want to spend time with him.

I am very happy to hear that you are doing self-care.  Prior to learning any of this I was giving my wife every free moment I had into doing her love language of 'acts of service' with almost nothing in return.  I found by taking time for my own self-care I could finish recovering from a knee operation I had, and to make healthier life choices.  When I first did this, my attempted suicide, I waited a couple of weeks, and did it without telling her, and absolutely nothing happened.  I enjoy no longer being enmeshed as much; however, my wife was at a loss at that time; however, she too has taken up time to do her own self-care in retaliation.  As far as I am concerned it is a win-win when she did that and she has come to enjoy it at well.  So, if your hubby want to do his own 'self-care', let him, or even encourage him to do that, as the net result I found to be extremely beneficial to both myself and my spouse.

He is also “jealous” of things done for others, even his own kids (they’re  mine, too).

Me too.  She says she isn't jealous, yet she is very jealous, and gets upset if I do something for the children, and don't include her.  So, I try to include her, or let her take over (as long as I don't mind her doing so), so she can take the credit and she gets along better with the children - I pick and choose my battles wisely.


Take care.

SD

[ForeverDad]

And btw, he also uses this “threat” a fair amount when he’s threatened divorce (this was mostly curtailed with boundaries and my willingness to contemplate divorce). He says if he drops his income in half, he wouldn’t have to give me alimony. Definitely a “tool” he uses to try to get me to give in. I don’t and generally leave the conversation. It has been a while since he was doing this but I’ve seen the tip of this reappearing lately.

This is not a "btw" but instead yet another pressure tactic for you to give up on a divorce alternative.  Add this to your personal, confidential, private log or journal to which he has no physical or electronic access.  Also have multiple backups just in case.

Here are posts I made years ago.

Understand that many courts have wised up to attempts to avoid or reduce child support.  There are many parents who have moved or changed jobs frequently so it is harder to find them or start garnishing their paychecks.  Some of us here have had the other parent quit jobs claiming they can't find work.  One solution courts have accepted is that support is ordered based on the income the parent could potentially earn.  It's called imputed income.  For example, there was a California doctor who quit his practice and started flipping burgers for a greatly reduced income.  The court ruled that he could be earning more and due to the disparity imputed him based on what he could earn, not what he was earning.  Effectively, the court ruled that it wasn't like he couldn't find a job as a doctor.

If your income drops, the court may agree with her lawyer to 'impute' your income potential.  So depending on how you handle it, making less may not drop your financial obligations.  Same goes for your stbEx, if she is able to earn more but doesn't for whatever reasons, the court may listen to your lawyer and agree to impute her income potential.

How long have you had the intention to switch careers?  Have she and others known about it for a long time?  Whether you have or not, you don't want to make it easy for the court to conclude your real intent is to avoid or reduce child support obligations.  If this is something contemplated only recently then we here in remote peer support can't be sure which way it might go.

As an example, there was a case in California where a doctor quit his practice and literally started flipping burgers.  The court refused to reduce or set a low child support amount due to his income potential and the conclusion he was trying to avoid CS.