1.19 | Reinforcing the Positive (with narcissists)

[Randi Kreger]

A common mistakes people make in this community is thinking they’re dealing with a borderline when they’re really coping with either a narcissist or someone with narcissist traits.

Bill Eddy (author of Splitting: Protecting Yourself when Divorcing a Narcissist or Borderline, explains what NPD is and gives several tips on handling people with NPD.

Using an EAR Statement can calm an upset or hostile person within seconds. These show Empathy, Attention, and Respect. This is especially helpful when you are dealing with someone who is really upset – possibly they are angry with you or someone else or they are sad, feeling helpless, or frightened.

As you go through your divorce, if there are instances when you can make positive statements, do so. This helps with the inevitable narcissistic injuries that will occur. You will also make yourself look better to court officials.

Randi Kreger

[justhere]

Reading the articles on Psychology Today has really got me thinking here and I wanted to question one of the comments. I've been on this board since Sept /09 and have found it helpful to a point but I keep thinking in some ways something is missing or doesn't ring quite true.  When I look at the criteria for BPD, my mother could fit into queen-witch/waif although she has only some of the behaviors but she has all of the NPD behaviors.  

I have read that BPD and NPD is being lumped into one disorder/mental illness but I was surprised to read on the comment from one of the posters on Psychology today the following;

 

... .there is not a lot of information available to the general public regarding the "cause" of NPD. There are a few very helpful books, but none of them address the "why" of this perplexing disorder. I think it is important to know a little about the back ground of the person with NPD, in order to know if you loved one really has it or only a few traits. A person with BPD has some of the traits of NPD, at least some of the time. However, a person with NPD has a very unique childhood experience that is easy to recognized. They are not abused and neglected like the BPD person. They are abused in a totally different fashion. Also, communication skills that work great with BPD, do not work with NPD. NPD has totally different communication needs.

~ Floyd

I have read your book 'Stop walking on eggshells' and found it helpful and I welcome anything that will make it better. I wonder though if it would be better to concentrated more on the NPD behaviors and less on the BPD behaviors and what the difference would be?

justhere

[Randi Kreger]

BPD and NPD ARE NOT being lumped together. The DSM-5 seems to blend antisocial and NPD, which I personally don't agree with. I have spoken to Christina Lawson about the "queen" BP mother really being a BPD/NPD mix. According to the DSM, we don't diagnose people based on their backgrounds, but the traits they display in the here and now. One of the prime NPs in my own life was abused in the same way a BP might be, and it is highly genetic in the family.

[RedRightHand]

This has been obvious to me for some time.

This is a issue , in my opinion, on this site and frustrating for me who has to wade through posts that are not relevent to get what I need in the way of support. I am not saying being in a relationship with a NPD is any less painful. I think NPD is a significantly large portion of the community.

[Indigo Sky]

there is not a lot of information available to the general public regarding the "cause" of NPD. There are a few very helpful books, but none of them address the "why" of this perplexing disorder. I think it is important to know a little about the back ground of the person with NPD, in order to know if you loved one really has it or only a few traits. A person with BPD has some of the traits of NPD, at least some of the time. However, a person with NPD has a very unique childhood experience that is easy to recognized. They are not abused and neglected like the BPD person. They are abused in a totally different fashion. Also, communication skills that work great with BPD, do not work with NPD. NPD has totally different communication needs.

Would appreciate if someone could expand on this. I thought there was no determining factor as to how NPD occurs.

What type of abuse are you refering to?

How do you communicate with a NPD? If the communication is different, is the therapy also different? If DBT works for BPD would it work for NPD.

I am with a partner who I suspect is NPD/ BPD. I guess I held the typical thoughts as NPD affecting only males, my partner is  female. Even after everything that has happened I dont see her as a straight NPD but rather as a mixture of NPD/BPD. At times she is the queen at other times the waif, but I am beginning to think that it is only the attention she is after when she is like the waif.

Queen =  BPD + narcissistic pd

(self-involved, craves admiration and attention, her needs and wishes must always be given top priority, demanding, lacks empathy, expects more than she is willing to give, may treat others as inferior.)

Found this from another post.

[UKannie]

I am with a partner who I suspect is NPD/ BPD. I guess I held the typical thoughts as NPD affecting only males, my partner is  female. Even after everything that has happened I dont see her as a straight NPD but rather as a mixture of NPD/BPD. At times she is the queen at other times the waif, but I am beginning to think that it is only the attention she is after when she is like the waif.

My mother is exactly the same. I don't know whether I'm dealing with BPD or NPD traits from one moment to the other.

Is it helpful to draw a sharp dividing line between the two disorders? On other boards I have seen discussions about how BPD's morph or 'shapeshift' depending on the situation they are or the individual they are with.

I think high-functioning people with PDs are very manipulative and adaptive.

If you use one approach with my mother she will shift her strategy to fit almost another PD entirely. Personally I choose to 'deal' with her as little as possible. (I understand that those who co-parent with a BPD/NPD are not in a position to do that)

But isn't 'reinforcing the positive' a form of walking on eggshells?

Annie

[Skip]

But isn't 'reinforcing the positive' a form of walking on eggshells?

Walking on Eggshells refers to not knowing how to act to prevent seemingly unexplainable and unprovoked attacks.  

Once we know the cause and we have the tools - we know how to act and the actions are explainable.  Sometimes we hold too tight to an expectation of fairness or appropriateness (e.g., a mother should nurture a child). If the other party is unyielding (e.g. mentally ill), then this is a commitment, of sorts,  on our part to continued hurt. The alternative is radical acceptance - it is what it is - deal with it in a way that is least painful and frustrating to you.


Here are some rules that will make things easier for you to interact with a narcissist. The aim is not to provide comfortable guidelines - interacting with a narcissist may not be comfortable - but it doesn't have to be contentious.

Demand little. Expect little.  You will find your role is one of support, acknowledgment, and recognition. The narcissist may see you as a kind of gopher or aide-de-camp. If that is acceptable to you, you should have little difficulty.

Be willing to listen a lot and listen carefully.

Find ways to provide positive recognition frequently. It is important to check the narcissist's reaction to be sure you have understood what positive recognition he or she wants at the moment. If you are on the wrong track, that fact will probably be made abundantly clear to you fairly quickly.

If it is at all possible to do so, be honest and sincere in your acknowledgment, praise, and recognition. Identify and note any and all of the narcissist's endeavors or achievements you genuinely admire. Use them to provide recognition and acknowledgment. Insincere flattery may be tolerated by the narcissist, but keep in mind that deep down the narcissist usually lacks well grounded self esteem. Therefore, the more credible you can be, the better.

Don't worry about making the narcissist become more self- centered -- he or she became that way at a fairly early age and can't now stop. Narcissists need help, of course, though they are usually very reluctant to seek it. If you think the narcissist in your life may want to alter his or her narcissistic outlook, consider making an intervention.

Used adroitly, an intervention can be a profound psychological experience for all concerned. It is a carefully planned event that can begin a process of healthy redirection and personal growth.

Avoid challenging the narcissist's wishes or desires. Narcissists have a low tolerance for frustration or interference.

Failing these, smile a lot and keep quiet. While this may not put you in especially good standing with the narcissist, it avoids the risk of attack and leaves you still in the picture after others falter, fail, or flee.

These guidelines call for several qualities, among them, patience, forbearance, and focus. Patience will enable you to hang in when others may drop out. Forbearance will enable you to overlook the narcissist's boorishness, selfishness, self-centeredness, and arrogance. Focus will enable you to keep in mind both what the narcissist wants from moment to moment and what your objectives are in associating with him or her.

[C12P21]

I found this research on line... and it seems to examine the behaviors and possible causes of narcissism?

www.rap.ucr.edu/Vazire_Funder.pdf

I liked the article due to research and doesn't have the judgemental tones of some of the current popular authors on the internet.

C

[newlife3]

Interesting thread... Very rarely, is someone just diagnosed with BPD, usually other traits in the Cluster B range (p.d.s), and mood disorders etc...

The bottom line is anyone with a chronic mental disorder has limited empathy for others and do have narcissitic traits... The frontal lobes are not working properly in the brain...

So great tips for living with one, if one wants to keep themselves in the "caretaker role", victim role of not getting any of their own needs met and postponing the inevitable destruction a bit longer...

[Checkmate]

while it's rare for someone with NPD to seek treatment i'm willing to bet that when their lives get to a point where they need therapy they probably are very good at fooling the therapist into believing that they are ok and don't really need to be there ... .

i'm also betting that a NPD is really good at setting up others to look bad so that they look good at all times ... .

[unicorn2014]

Thank you for this. My therapist gave me the diagnostic criteria for NPD to help me deal with my father. I'm not really sure to go from there. Does anyone know of any resources for adult children of narcissists?

[unicorn2014]

Bill Eddy (author of Splitting: Protecting Yourself when Divorcing a Narcissist or Borderline, explains what NPD is and gives several tips on handling people with NPD.

Oh boy, the article quoted made me laugh, somehow I don't think that's the right response.  

I think its because I know so many narcissists that its quite funny to have their behavior exposed in broad daylight.