8.21 | Contact after the breakup [romantic partners]

[Manon46]

Not sure if I totally understand the thoughts here, but the bigger picture in a objective way...

Still hard for me to understand... I think the biggest after break up piece is indeed the bounderie busting...

Both ways, for me to draw the line, and for him to respect any bounderie...

I saw it frequently as a attempt to re-engage, what in fact was just to keep his what he thought was his...

I  think that for me, my addiction was so heavy, that I only saw what I wanted to see... whenever a part of the bigger picture was revealing, I immediately shut myself up, thinking that he couldn't be that mean, and that he had a bad time, and did love me.

In a way, as I see it now, the bigger picture had nothing to do with me as a person, but all about him and how he could prevend loosing his narcissistic supply.

However I still have trouble some times to see him as demonic as he appears, but I have to.

Now I think, that whatever contact is made by him, which is little at the time, it all has to do with his plans for the future, if he has any, and that nothing actually has to do with love or caring...

He did try to kill himself when the big break up came close, but it hadn't the outcome he desired... I was furious and he became worse than ever... normal people would immediately call out for help... but he despied psychologists, and the situation became horrible... he left and tried again to come over every weekend, and I continued to see what I wanted to see, he was trying and loved me, and was serious about us...

I took a test, told him my kids were going to live with their father... for him that was a sign to push harder...

he left his girlfriend, rented a room, and we started all over, talking about a future together... when it became clear that my children weren/t leaving, he reconnected with her again... deniying everything... left a lot of his things here and his sons.

I thought it was because he wanted out there, and seriously was looking for an appartment... he came over lesser and lesser... and I was detoxing... and in hell... .he in heaven with her...

Finally I threw his stuff out and texted him more than thousands texts i guess... he kept saying he was busy looking for a room and a job... he didn/t want a devorce, and still I thought it was because he loved me.

THe bigger picture is that he wanted to have a 'safe house'... .

When in an argue his gf kicked him out, or he left... he asked me to write him on my address again and to store his stuff again... this time I refused...

I hardly heard from him again, he moved in with his parents, wanted to devorce right away and that I would arrange that... .I did it, and he was gone... last time I saw him, I thought he wanted to talk, and look back at what went wrong and how we could fix it.

He still kept saying I was the one... I still believed he finally hit rock bottom... he needed some papers from me than, I gave it to him... .never saw him back...

He owes me money and I never expected to get it back, but he is paying his terms... still saying he misses me... Three months ago I still would have believed him... the bigger picture is ofcourse that by paying me and saying he misses me... .he is probably keeping me in the spare zone... .not because I am special to him.

Is he that cold,heartless,calculating is that the bigger picture objectively... .I guess it is, but I am still very sure at times, that he is very much aware of the misstakes he made by treating me the way he did.

And he certainly does know that what he had with me, he will never reach that again... he knows... but if he cares ?  I still don't know... .xoxox

[jalk]

Hi Skip.  Well, I think part of what you said may be correct however, I didn't expect her to acknowledge my feelings of sadness. I knew that she was not capable of acknowleging my feelings. When I went for a jog after she got to the house to visit the cat, I left for my run. More so out of self preservation than upsetting her. I needed to take care of myself at that time. Anything she had to say or do no longer mattered to me. She destroyed my love for her,she cheated and lied to me. I can not be a friend to anyone who lies and cheats. If she thought that possible, after what she did, it only proves how sick she really is.

No, she has no feelings or epathy for me. Has little thought in to anything that will NOT benefit her in some way. The picture of us at the university, had I responded to her with "wow, where can I go see this?" would have been followed with her saying "so, how have you been?".  I have no interest in sharing my life with her. She is toxic.

As far as her happiness goes... .she is happy for as long as a three year old is happy with a new toy.  Once she gets bored and tires of the new toy, in this case Smokey (her new love interest), she will be on her way to something or someone else. She has done this six times in the past, that I'm aware of. Who knows? Maybe she had done this more times then I know of. Smokey is number 7. She will be taking her 4th set of vows next spring. Wow!.Incredible!

[Matt]

I still need to deal with how anxious I sometimes get because of the attacking emails.  It's a lot better that I don't feel like I have to defend and justify myself anymore and I have stopped doing that.  But the emails still depresses me.

The simplest thing to do is completely ignore the inappropriate parts and respond only to the appropriate stuff.  If he says, "I hate you and I'm going to be 15 minutes late picking up the kids." you can respond, "Then I'll expect you here at 5:15 instead of the usual 5:00.  I'll have the kids ready then."  (Dumb example but you get the point... .)

Another option is to copy his inappropriate e-mails to a third party, with cc: to your ex.  Just forward the note to someone - I used our marriage counselor and our custody evaluator - with no comment.  The point is to make it clear that his behavior will not be kept secret.  That worked for me.

If his comments are really threatening you can always talk to the police or the civil court - maybe an Order Of Protection or Restraining Order.  You don't need a lawyer.  But that might escalate things.

Mainly I think you need to just accept that this is how it is.

[T2H]

I hear what PDQuick is saying.  I guess the two issues I have are... .

- we've already stated that many people here may have partners who aren't BPD at all, just showing some of the traits.  So they aren't really disordered, or they may be, but we don't know.  If someone is diagnosed, then ok.  But if not, do we interact and treat them as we would anyone else, or not?

- if we're in the FOG, obviously we're not going to make the best decisions.  Sure maybe we're just boundary breaking like they are - but it seems both sides have very good (albeit different) reasons for that.  Part of being in the FOG is confusion, I'm not sure if being aware and clear that at that time we're simply having bad boundaries is going to help the next time we're FOG'd.

[Matt]

- we've already stated that many people here may have partners who aren't BPD at all, just showing some of the traits.  So they aren't really disordered, or they may be, but we don't know.  If someone is diagnosed, then ok.  But if not, do we interact and treat them as we would anyone else, or not?

Usually it works best to focus on the behaviors, not the diagnosis.

If you have a broken arm, that's pretty clear from the x-ray (and the pain).  And doctors know how to fix it, and you can be confident that it will really be fixed, and will work pretty much like it should.

I wish personality disorders and other psychological problems were like that, but they don't seem to be.  People with these sorts of problems don't always want to be diagnosed, and the "fix" isn't something the doctor can do for you - you have to do it for yourself, with help.  I don't know of anyone with a broken arm who doesn't want it fixed!  And I can't imagine a doctor saying, "Well you'll have to do it yourself, but I'll coach you through it.  Why don't you come in twice a week for a couple of years and we'll see how you're doing after that?"

So we can't always rely on a diagnosis or expect someone with a problem to get the help they need.

Instead, we need to observe the behaviors and figure out ways to deal with them, while staying with the person, or leaving.  That's the shift in thinking that's hard for many of us:  From trying to fix the other person, to learning to deal with them as they are.

[SoMuchPain]

Think back to a normal breakup. It is usually tough, and it will hurt one of the participants, usually. Once "the talk" is over, and you have communicated a desire to not see one another anymore, that is usually the closure on the subject. In the case of post relationship contact, there is a firm boundary of not recycling the relationship. That will stand tall in the midst of it all.

The one breaking up will have an absoluteness about it. There is no teetering. There is a core sense of self, and desire. It maintains its thoughts and desires, not wavering in the fear, obligation, or guilt. The one being broken up with may try to recycle the relationship, but will encounter a brick wall of boundaries that quickly stops any and all attempts. Acceptance starts from that point.

Now take a disordered person, and inject them into the process. The big missing element is the strong core sense of self. Their thought processes move laterally depending on the fear and abandonment issues that they experience from day to day. One day, they may never want to see you again, and two days later, they want to have coffee with you. This leads to the massive confusion of the non, and the recycling process begins.

The boundary breaking comes from both sides of the fence. The lack of a core sense of self allows the disordered person to temporarily relieve themselves of any and all boundaries, and instigate contact. The FOG allows the non to take the communications, and read their own feeling into it, in their own utter confusion of the events.

We tend to think of what we would want if we committed certain actions. We judge others behavior, based on our own behaviors. If we call someone, and ask them to coffee, then it means we are interested in them. When someone asks us to coffee, we take the mindset of they must be interested in us. This type of uneducated thinking, leads us to drop our own boundaries. Boundary breaking is boundary breaking, even if it us who does it to ourselves, in our own misperception, or confusion of the events that are unfolding.

This process is a very complicated one, and includes many variables. We are really at the infancy of understanding it. The most useful piece of information, that we must understand in viewing all of this is the lack of core self in the disordered participant. There usually is no continuum of thoughts and feelings present. What we experience from their end isn't concrete, but more fleeting. We try to base our decisions on concrete thoughts and feelings. Thus the large amounts of recycles in these relationships.

i like this.  it makes me feel sane.  because i do have a core sense of self.

[Liss]

I am currently in the make up/break up cycle.  Unfortunately I work closely with my exuBPDbf so there is no possibility of NC.  We were broke up for 2 mos, talked at work & thought we'd try again but broke up again just a day ago.  This is very unhealthy for both of us. 

[PDQuick]

Expanded minds bring expanded thoughts.

I am currently in the make up/break up cycle.  Unfortunately I work closely with my exuBPDbf so there is no possibility of NC.  We were broke up for 2 mos, talked at work & thought we'd try again but broke up again just a day ago.  This is very unhealthy for both of us. 

Liss, Im not picking on you, just proving a point. You said there is no possibility of NC. This may be true under these conditions. But the absoluteness in your statement is false. There is a possibility of NC, by finding a new job, or seeking a transfer. Kinda rash, isn't it? So, lets investigate a few things, because I'm sure you don't want to switch employment.

The goal here is to stop the recycling, and understanding the dynamics that are in play with your relationship with him. To understand fully, one must be able to detach. You have to come clear of the FOG. This is where a stern boundary can come into play. Lets say that you set the boundary that there is to be no communication between the two of you regarding the two of you. Only professional banter allowed. If he starts asking how you have been, or reminiscing about your relationship, you get up and walk away. You are in control of this, and you have to take the initiative, and the step.

I know, it isn't that easy, is it?

You will probably be the one who breaks your own boundary, by asking how he is, or giving into a moment of weakness and slipping into a conversation, without even realizing it.

Its ok if you do, because afterwards, you will see your part of the dance in the dysfunction, and begin to work on that. You cant control him, but you can erect, and maintain boundaries to limit his affect on you. Then, you can start working on yourself.

During this process, you will inevitably see what it is that we are talking about. You will communicate what you need, and what you will tolerate, and you will see just how he will try to walk all over you, and your desires. In most disordered relationships, this occurs on a day to day basis. The defining factor is that we, as nons, fail to see it consciously. When we are alerted to it, we will will see all of the actions, that the pretty words cover up. Only we can find this out for ourselves. We can't be told by an outside source, we have to hone in on it with our own observations, not ones by others.

Once we have communicated clearly what it is that we desire, we will see what the true intentions, and underlying meanings behind the disorder are. It isn't about us at all. It is more about their needs taking paramount, and ours falling to the wayside. This is the eye opening effect that releases us from the FOG. Once we determine that it is not us that is the focus, but rather them, it is almost impossible to feel guilt, obligation, of fear for the disordered person in our lives.

This is the fine line that thinking that they cheat, because we are inadequate, and knowing that they cheat simply because it is something they desire, regardless of what they have. It is the difference in thinking that we are doing something wrong, and knowing that what we do is consistant, but we are doing them for an inconsistant set of needs residing in a person. Its the difference between thinking that we can't make them happy, and knowing that they, themselves, can't be happy, because their needs and desires change on an ever consistant basis. It depersonalizes the events, and allows us to see the dynamic for what it really is.

In other words, it strips our desires of an outcome, and our rose colored glasses off. We finally, for the first time in these relationships, see things for what they are, not what we want them to be, and how we expect them to be based on our own thoughts and experiences.

I hope you don't mind me using your post as an example.  xoxox

[C12P21]

Now take a disordered person, and inject them into the process. The big missing element is the strong core sense of self. Their thought processes move laterally depending on the fear and abandonment issues that they experience from day to day. One day, they may never want to see you again, and two days later, they want to have coffee with you. This leads to the massive confusion of the non, and the recycling process begins.

I went through this... he offered friendship and one day I was okay, the next, uh no thanks. I know my strong core sense of self got lost for awhile. Really lost. And this concerns me, I am working on boundaries in T and reading books to help. I suspect how he attacked me the last day triggered somethings inside me that were unresolved. The other is getting caught up in the recycling of the relationship, the hope, the magical thinking. I did not feel like myself for a time and am still struggling with a few things. But I know I will get there, in time.

Once we have communicated clearly what it is that we desire, we will see what the true intentions, and underlying meanings behind the disorder are. It isn't about us at all. It is more about their needs taking paramount, and ours falling to the wayside. This is the eye opening effect that releases us from the FOG. Once we determine that it is not us that is the focus, but rather them, it is almost impossible to feel guilt, obligation, of fear for the disordered person in our lives.

This is very true. I got a call today and was upset for maybe five minutes. Then I thought, you know, it is about his need to humilate and control me. I didn't get sucked in, no response, and felt okay. I don't owe him anything, but I owe me peace of mind and sanity. It is looking at him as a disordered person and knowing I don't have to be stuck there with him.

I disagree on one point. I cut off facebook, to save myself from being tempted to look at his posts on friends sites. I cut off the email as a drop, not a reject, in order to save myself from looking every day to see if he contacts me but he doesn't know this. I blocked the phone, to help me detach, not to send a message. to him. I am protecting ME right now.  When I am in the place of "no interest" then I will be able to demonstrate "no interest". Right now I am in the place of shredded head and heart. Too vulnerable. 

I think in a healthy relationship, folks can be friends down the road. But not with this kind of disorder, there is no middle ground, and the mental work it would take to be in the middle ground is not worth the effort.

Thanks for the insights guys.

C

[Manon46]

You said there is no possibility of NC. This may be true under these conditions. But the absoluteness in your statement is false. There is a possibility of NC, by finding a new job, or seeking a transfer. Kinda rash, isn't it? So, lets investigate a few things, because I'm sure you don't want to switch employment.

I found that very true in my own search of recovering, thinking I had no choice, so I couldn't take off, or blocking mail/phone

and in that matter continuing my own suffering, what you are saying is, that you always have a choice...

I did have a choice ofcourse, could have sold my house, took on another job, move away, but it seemed to me to much of an effort, I didn't want to do all that. I didn/t want to make such huge changings which would effect my life and my girls life so so much. I felt I had to be stronger than that, running away,throwing lifes upside down, just because I couldn,t bear the loss and hurt. I truely felt he wasn't worth that... .so I stayed, and made my suffering subsidiary to my girls life and peace of mind. They suffered enough... I couldn't let my ego dominate theirs... So I had a choice and made it... and went through hell...

And what it showed me along the way, was his real intention, the glasses fell off, the fog disapeared,it showed me the real him, the real disorder, I had to face it, there was no more running away from it, no more ignoring of facts, I just couldn't, it proved itself...

I never blocked anything, but through it all I realy had to face myself also, my intentions, my wants and needs, which I probably would never had done if I had run away... and maybe that was the most painfull... acknowledging the lies I told myself, the fact I was so addicted, the fact I was so desparate that I found all the excuses to avoid myself and my behavior,which was at times just as disordered as his... did I realy love him?

I thought I did, but deep down I could't found much respect for him, I wanted to love him, but I also wanted him to be what I wanted him to be... for my own sake, not his... actually I came to the point realizing that it was all about me... auch...

He had to stay what I wanted him to be, in order to keep my dream alive... He made me realy look unfog'd at myself... since that became clearer, the bounderies were easier to keep,the pain lessens, the wounds started to heal...

So I made a choice, and not the easiest one, it took a lot and I gained a lot... They on the other hand have a choice as well, but they always (most of them) make the choice of running away and not facing anything... they prefer the easy way out in stead of the right way out, it's always the easy way for them... and maybe if I had not to deal with the house, my children, I would have made a different choice, and might have run away too,the love for my children forced me to do it different...

And afterwards I am glad, it was the right way, not the easy way, and made me a lot stronger and able to see him for what he is, and facing my fears, the fear for the truth, made me capable of dealing with him and took away his power over me.

He is evil and evil hides in the dark, the light of truth makes him powerless,I feel nothing for him, no friendship wanted, no re engagement wanted, he is not even a bad memory, he is just what he is... and not better or worse than me, just different and no longer someone I want to be with... no fear,obligation or guilt left... just no interest... and able to show that... poor him... he lost more than I did. xoxox

[Skip]

I disagree on one point. I cut off facebook, to save myself from being tempted to look at his posts on friends sites. I cut off the email as a drop, not a reject, in order to save myself from looking every day to see if he contacts me but he doesn't know this. I blocked the phone, to help me detach, not to send a message. to him. I am protecting ME right now.  When I am in the place of "no interest" then I will be able to demonstrate "no interest". Right now I am in the place of shredded head and heart. Too vulnerable. 

No Contact (NC) or Controlled Contact (CC) is really for us. It's unfortunate when one has to resort to it - but sometimes we must.  I used it, too, as a tool to enforce boundaries on myself when I needed it.  It's sorta like putting a padlock on the refrigerator and giving the key to a neighbor 

No Interest shown (NIS) is really affective in disarming the other party.  But even here, if the other person is aggressive, you may need CC, NC, and even at times,  a Restraining Order.

It's a balancing act.

[Want2know]

I disagree on one point. I cut off facebook, to save myself from being tempted to look at his posts on friends sites. I cut off the email as a drop, not a reject, in order to save myself from looking every day to see if he contacts me but he doesn't know this. I blocked the phone, to help me detach, not to send a message. to him. I am protecting ME right now.  When I am in the place of "no interest" then I will be able to demonstrate "no interest". Right now I am in the place of shredded head and heart. Too vulnerable. 

No Contact (NC) or Controlled Contact (CC) is really for us. It's unfortunate when one has to resort to it - but sometimes we must.  I used it, too, as a tool to enforce boundaries on myself when I needed it.  It's sorta like putting a padlock on the refrigerator and giving the key to a neighbor 

This is exactly why I've decided to hold off on getting a phone.  I feel it helps me right now with CC.  Everyone is wondering why I haven't gotten a phone, and I just tell them it's a good thing for me right now.  I will get one when I feel I have fully disengaged from my ex.

[jpounce]

Think back to a normal breakup. It is usually tough, and it will hurt one of the participants, usually. Once "the talk" is over, and you have communicated a desire to not see one another anymore, that is usually the closure on the subject. In the case of post relationship contact, there is a firm boundary of not recycling the relationship. That will stand tall in the midst of it all.

The one breaking up will have an absoluteness about it. There is no teetering. There is a core sense of self, and desire. It maintains its thoughts and desires, not wavering in the fear, obligation, or guilt. The one being broken up with may try to recycle the relationship, but will encounter a brick wall of boundaries that quickly stops any and all attempts. Acceptance starts from that point.

Now take a disordered person, and inject them into the process. The big missing element is the strong core sense of self. Their thought processes move laterally depending on the fear and abandonment issues that they experience from day to day. One day, they may never want to see you again, and two days later, they want to have coffee with you. This leads to the massive confusion of the non, and the recycling process begins.

The boundary breaking comes from both sides of the fence. The lack of a core sense of self allows the disordered person to temporarily relieve themselves of any and all boundaries, and instigate contact. The FOG allows the non to take the communications, and read their own feeling into it, in their own utter confusion of the events.

We tend to think of what we would want if we committed certain actions. We judge others behavior, based on our own behaviors. If we call someone, and ask them to coffee, then it means we are interested in them. When someone asks us to coffee, we take the mindset of they must be interested in us. This type of uneducated thinking, leads us to drop our own boundaries. Boundary breaking is boundary breaking, even if it us who does it to ourselves, in our own misperception, or confusion of the events that are unfolding.

This process is a very complicated one, and includes many variables. We are really at the infancy of understanding it. The most useful piece of information, that we must understand in viewing all of this is the lack of core self in the disordered participant. There usually is no continuum of thoughts and feelings present. What we experience from their end isn't concrete, but more fleeting. We try to base our decisions on concrete thoughts and feelings. Thus the large amounts of recycles in these relationships.

Hi PDQuick,

I just re read  your post here, after reading it at least 3 times yesterday. It is extremely well said, very insightful. It really has helped me to see clearly through  what for a long time has been a big convoluted mess of thoughts and possible theories in my mind regarding my uBPDxgf and her seemingly without rhyme or reason thought patterns and actions. Especially her out of the blue birthday email to me that I mentioned earlier in this thread. Looking at it through the context of what you posted really explains and  make sense of  of a good bit of the craziness. Thanks for that.       

[C12P21]

No Contact (NC) or Controlled Contact (CC) is really for us. It's unfortunate when one has to resort to it - but sometimes we must.  I used it, too, as a tool to enforce boundaries on myself when I needed it.  It's sorta like putting a padlock on the refrigerator and giving the key to a neighbor 

No Interest shown (NIS) is really affective in disarming the other party.  But even here, if the other person is aggressive, you may need CC, NC, and even at times,  a Restraining Order.

Aw Shwing, thanks for the clarification. I can always count on you to help me get my head straight. You know I have read this before and intellectually I GET IT but what the heck happened to my boundaries and sense of self? It is like trying to reason with hurricane season in my emotions. This has been a real learning curve for me.

I think the N/C would have been easier had all the childhood tapes not started in the end, those tapes began when he verbally and emotionally abused me... .working through those triggers, coming to terms with the emotional abuse, etc on my part has been a slow and painful journey. My exH was physically abusive so I had tangible evidence of what was going on, but the mind games of the exnBPDbf was much more difficult to ferret out.

Thanks for posting this board. It is helping with clarification of my values and the areas of life that need addressing.

There is a quote in the book "The Natural" (great fiction and also a film starring Glenn Close and Robert Redford, it is one of my favorite movies). The quote is "God gives us two lives, the one we learn by and the one we live after we have learned". So in a way, we are always living two lives.

[turtlesoup]

Hi Skip

I went thru all these differing break up styles at different points. The last been fighting some two months ago and since then NC. She has threatened me in very general terms before as in "if you leave me just wait and see what happens" but these were not particularly upsetting threats but a very bizarre way to try to get someone to love you and the signs of a disordered mind. It can be difficult to know if we are in a phase of break up or we have truly given up on the exBPD. For me I went back a few times after several months but at no time had I found this board or realised she truly did have a serious mental illness. With that knowledge now, there is no going back so I know what phase of break up I am.

[C12P21]

I addressed my post to Shwing, I meant Skip. Sorry for the mistake.

The posts are very helpful, helps to understand their fleeting impulses. What takes place is my  behavior, so confusing and strange.

I was continually recycling based on the illusion of the relationship rather than the reality... .and was very confused. Everytime I heard from him, the work had to begin from scratch.

Anyway, learned a lot and am working on forgiving me. The other is realizing how enmeshed I was in the whole thing... .

I thought I was BPD for awhile but realize although that is inside me, the difference is I try to understand my behavior and work on solutions and boundaries. My response was shame driven. Given what he said that last day just triggered the old tapes, abandonment, not worthy of love. I kept thinking my emotional pain would go away if he would validate me through apology. What I've realized is the emotional pain must be healed inside of me, or at least a recognition it is there and not look to my partner to take care of my feelings. A healthy relationship would have balanced components of support and understanding. But ours wasn't healthy and I understand that now.

My hope is I am never with an abusive person again but if it happens the first time the abuse slips out... my old tapes might play for an instant... and then the new tape says "I don't deserve this, good bye".



C

[hiddenlizard]

First I want to say thank you to C12P21 for the "old tapes" image. I have had to deal with the same kind of issues. There is no doubt that the verbal, emotional and physical abuse I received in my family has contributed to my fog and that the pwBPD learned very quickly how to make use of my past. I also enjoyed the line from "The Natural", one of my favorite movies! And I too want to move on into another stage of my life where I can say "no effin way!" to ANY form of abuse. I KNOW I deserve better and even if I live alone for the rest of my life it will be a good life and it will be my own.

But what struck me as I woke this morning is this: Regardless of how we as nons might categorize contact I think we can be quite certain that the pwBPD, "diagnosed" or not, would characterize the contact in a different manner. But it really doesn't matter what that person thinks if what we want is to take our own life back... .

[C12P21]

Post relationship fighting (25%*)  - With a very angry/resentful person, it's not unusual for the anger to continue past the separation.  Many pwBPD do this.  There is a lot of anger associated with this disorder.  This is mostly about resentments that have built up and feelings of being violated or shamed.  This can been in the form of either blaming, or detailing the resentment, or raging, or showing off the new boyfriend, or a host of other angry/resentful things. 

The blame goes to you because the pwBPD doesn't want it to fall on his/her (bad) behavior - she needs to be the victim - it not about you at all. 

This is so true. He is remarried, all ready. His sister calls today to tell me he wants me to know something, that it wasn't 'my fault" and then she starts in about how much he resented my exhusband. I cut her off and told her, that it was in the past, I've moved on, and if he wants me to know something, he knows how to reach me.

I understand their need for drama and to play victim. I understand he doesn't want to admit he is a womanizer and a liar. I know what happened, reinventing history doesn't change it. So glad for this post.

[ProfDaddy]

I like simple explanations and fear we may be over complicating our analysis of post-breakup communications.  The common thread to all these patterns is that both partners persist in retaining emotional connections -- both negative and positive ones.  I have discussed this with my T and she agrees. Longing is an emotional connection, make-up is an emotional connection, and fighting is an emotional connection... .All I want to understand is how to recognize these behaviors and exterminate them. 

Bold moves won't work to end these complex emotional entanglements.  I feel like a surgeon removing a complex many branched tumor that has wrapped itself around blood vessels, organs, and nerves.  You can't just cut it off or rip it out.  It takes persistence and careful work to remove each branch of the tumor. 

It is time to behavior mod ourselves and move towards detachment in little steps (shaping).  Think of small ways to move on in our daily lives and communication with our exes, do these small things, and reward ourselves for following through.  Recognize any persistence of an emotional connection or attempt to engage emotionally for what it is and shut it down. 

It is tedious work, it is exhausting, and there is no other way to do it. 

[C12P21]

It is time to behavior mod ourselves and move towards detachment in little steps (shaping).  Think of small ways to move on in our daily lives and communication with our exes, do these small things, and reward ourselves for following through.  Recognize any persistence of an emotional connection or attempt to engage emotionally for what it is and shut it down.

Yes, a difficult process but a worthy goal. The persistent emotional connection for me is the love of the illusion, the person I projected he was, the kind of person I am in relationship. Loving, kind and supportive. The other emotional connection is not having closure, it still bothers me, yet I accept that it will and in time, it will fade and pass... .

C

[Skip]

The common thread to all these patterns is that both partners persist in retaining emotional connections -- both negative and positive ones.    

HI Dad6145,

Interesting comments! You may want to go participate in this workshop entitled “recycling”. It is located here:

bpdfamily.com/topic=95860.0

Skippy

[O'Maria]

I read the comments about how a "normal" relationship ends compared to one with a BPD (or other PD) partner. What a big difference! I truly believe that their way of thinking reflects all their actions. Here is how I experienced the difference:

My ex husband (normal) and I have been able to remain friends after the divorce. We can talk in a mature way and we agree most of the time when it comes to parenting issues, no major fights, because we want the kids to believe in a good marriage even though we were not able to keep it together. I also dated a guy (normal) for a couple of months after my divorce. Same thing, very simple, we broke up when we discovered our personalities did not match and there was not enough attraction between us. No threats, no bad words, no bad feelings.

My ex boyfriend on the other hand (diagnosed with anxiety, panic attacks, PTSD, tested positive for 9/10 BPD traits, and was prescribed medication before we met) and I cannot talk in a mature way. We cannot stay friends after the breakup. Until I learned about these PDs I didnt understand why he was so different. We agreed early on to always stay "neutral", like friends, even after the breakup (like me and my ex husband) but it did not work that way. But when he contacted me the other day I got frustrated. His only intention was to take revenge and tell me how he works out every day, and how young women notice his great body... etc.

Its like listening to a teenage boy talk about himself in a narcissistic way.

After the breakup he has threatened to kill himself, sent me "goodbye, my life is over" messages, and tried to hold me responsible for his bad actions. He did that while we were together as well. My dysfunctional relationship with my ex bf hurt my strong core sense of self. The longer I stay away from him, the more I understand about myself, why I got so confused. I just hope I am not too messed up and able to get on with my life.

It does not matter if you are diagnosed, the behavior gives it away. People with "problems" don't want to see a doctor, mine was afraid of being labelled as crazy. No contact is the best option, Controlled contact the second best option. Going back to boost his self esteem would be a mistake, and having sex with him an even bigger mistake. Sex to him is a resolution of all problems, and an acceptance of everything he did, even abuse. Anybody else had this experience, using sex as a tool?

Break up/make up cycles are routine behavior for these people, whenever they need us they are angels, but the next moment they turn into demons. Posessiveness and control are typical too and thats why I thing No contact or Controlled contact are necessary to prevent getting hurt again.

[jj2121]

Contact after the breakup was when when I got really confused and hurt even more,also when I began to realise something was not right. I got invited over dinner then she changed her mind,eventually went for a day out and slept together again, but I was told things could not change,we could not get back together.

Started getting phone calls at work and at night, she would arrange to meet me if she was out in the car or if I drove past her car, I would get a text saying where are you going,what you doing, who you with? Also got text inviting me over to her house before work to lie in bed. Then arguments started when I got annoyed, I apologized a lot she never did.

Suddenly we were just good friends,although after 2 months she said she loved me and missed me then hurt me even more, when she spent the weekend with a guy and told me. She said nothing happened and she could not be in a relationship, more lies.

For some reason she wanted to tell me a stories everyday about her life, it was like a soap opera. I would get big long text messages every morning when I woke up for work, about everything that was happening with her family. When I got annoyed and said you don't want to be with me, so what are you doing? She was like I thought I could always talk to you,but obviously not. That's when I said if you are going to lie and mess me about,I can't help you.

She would always say I am not a btch and I don't lie and if asked about anything she said that was strange or worrying with her behaviour, she would say just leave it.

[Surrender]

We were planning marriage involving me leaving my country to be with him. I had just returned from living with him and plans were underway including an LOA from work, almost gave my place up and nearly sold my car. The following week I receive the 'out of the blue by the way I've already dumped you but just letting you know call. Literally out of nowhere he did a 180 and coldly ended everything.

All the typical re-connections established with his exes and ex-friends that he had ditched the year or two prior. New social regime implemented of bar-b-q's, parties and bars. No remorse and he made sure to say to me "I'm fixed solid and won't change my mind. It's done so don't bother besides I don't think I could have even been monogamous." Wow that was news to me because I had spent 2 years with a man that went out of his way to ensure that I be just as loyal and monogamous as he was. Well I didn't bother and managed to not contact him since.

He called me back only once to re-confirm the break-up was solid and to say there is no reason why we can't return to being best friends like we were before we were a couple. He told me "after all you are like family to me, and if you can't do this then you will truly be abandoning me".

My last words to him were "I'm going to miss my best friend but you won't be hearing from me ever again.

His last words to me as I was crying on the phone "well I have to put on my new face, I have the party bar-b-q to go to now that I have re-connected with my ex-girlfriend/friend. Oh by the way, I'll give you a little time and then when your feeling better I want you to call me".

I said "I am afraid then you will be waiting a life time because I will never be calling you again".

He said "Well then I will give you some time and distance and I'll then have to call you and check in somewhere down the road".

I said "please do not".

He said "well, you know I will because I care and want to know that your ok".

At this point I wanted to yell all manner of obscenities it was so convoluted.

I said Goodbye again and hung up. I haven't heard from him and it has been 2 weeks. I removed him from skype and my emails.

I suspect he will call sometime but I'm doing everything in my power to have n/c.

Makes me sick when I think that he expected me to feel greatfull and eager to talk to him.

[C12P21]

Crying Wings.

Wow, you demonstrated such terrific boundaries in the midst of a confused and broken heart. 

I am sorry he treated you in such a poor manner. My hope is for your healing and from the way you handled the situation, you sound real solid.

Take care and thanks for posting,

C

[Surrender]

Crying Wings.

Wow, you demonstrated such terrific boundaries in the midst of a confused and broken heart.  

I am sorry he treated you in such a poor manner. My hope is for your healing and from the way you handled the situation, you sound real solid.

Take care and thanks for posting,

C

Thank you but honestly I don't feel strong and I have no idea how I am maintaining these boundaries in the raging battle I find myself in.

It is really hard to be reasonable in this state and I'm doing everything in my power to do so. Truth is I don't want to be "HAD" anymore and I already feel that my dignity has been horribly compromised. Some things can't ever be corrected or undone. What he did to me falls under the category of something that can NEVER be undone. That is why I don't believe there can be closure nor would I want to give him the time of day. As agonizing as it is I know it's OVER so I don't need closure. What he did to me is closure and when I deeply think about it all I come back to the same dead end.

But at the very least I can ensure that he doesn't have the last carrot on the stick because that is EXACTLY what he needs to feed on. In a way that is the best closure I could give myself and retain what ever vestige of honor I have in this all.

I don't know if that makes sense but that is what I have concluded because ultimately I know he would just love to string me along. It would massage his ego, his 'needs' and he could continue living under the auspice that he could technically have me in some way if he wanted to continue living his 'theme'. I don't want to give him that option. In fact, I want to do the opposite. I want to ensure that he is NOT appeased by reaching me or ever talking to me again. I know it is only a matter of time before he will call me and 'check-in'. Well the phone will never be answered and he simply will just never know where I stand but all he will be left to think is that his worst nightmare was true. He will never talk to me again and he will know absolutely nothing about me because he will be cut off completely cold turkey just like he did.

He will feel abandoned and like he never meant anything to me. He will doubt that I ever truly loved him and he will in his way, yearn to at least make some connection without ever being able to. In his mind he desires some twisted vindication in me longing for him, but he also thinks that he has truly spared me because he loves me therefore some part of me should still love him. However, I'm okay with him NEVER getting that satisfaction because there cannot ever be real closure. Truth is the closure was always in every abusive behavior he did against me. Sound cruel? Well I don't harbor malice or ill will but I'm done with being his pawn and plaything. In the end he will be the one hanging and it will never be the closure or 'stringing' that he so 'needs' and yearns for.  His narcissism will absolutely hate it and that will slowly smolder within him. He will be like a pendulum swinging between rage and taking on the victim stance justified in all his 'black' delusions against me. But he will retreat to longing sometimes and there he will not find his peace with me in this all.

What he has done to me is not forgivable in the sense that it is not excusable even in his illness. I forgive him in 'spirit' and no single ill word was spoken by me when he so coldly dumped me. He has lived a life of being able to 'get away' with everything without truly understanding how it impacts people. Here is a chance at least for him to understand that another human being is not his play thing and that enough is enough. Sick or not he WILL be thinking about my NON-Response and underneath his cool layers it will burn him in some way. He will at first take the victim stance and like a simmering volcano the heat will increase into rage. Let it be so because I will NOT play into a lingering game of emotional torture just for his appeasement.

Forgive me if I have just ranted but I just felt that my argument is justified and that somehow even though I'm tortured through this all, I will not allow myself to cave anymore. I know the game even if he is ill but I just can't be the victim, who is the pretend rescuer only to discover that I was always the victim 'game' just to prolong what is already and always has been a sharp "Good-Bye". I'm not a cruel person but by nature I'm no one's victim in the END even in LOVE. I was his victim and protector long enough. (he doesn't need to know just how much I suffer, that is for me).



Rough Ride Indeed.

[C12P21]

It wasn't a rant, you are very clear, well stated and here is a big BRAVO to you for your clarity and boundaries. You are protecting yourself from further abuse.

I didn't have nearly the insight to the disorder as you do when my relationship with a dNPD ended. I wish I had. I admire you. 

C

[Trick1004]

Excellent thread, thanks for bumping,

I have been expecting that I might have to deal with an unleashed storm from her after things have gone so smooth so far. I realize initially there was some boundary busting attempts on her part after the breakup, especially her wanting to stay the last month until our lease was up and then when she was excited when I initially agreed to meet with her a couple days after the breakup.

I realize I threw up some pretty big boundaries initially in response to her boundary busting. I told her no way could I handle her still living with me and to pack her stuff up while I was at work. Then when she kept wanting to meet over the couple weeks post breakup (I was initially excited, but eventually decided I couldn't handle it) to talk about moving stuff and "to see where we are at... . " my response was "do whatever you want with moving but I can't see or talk to you now".

Perhaps she saw how dead serious I was about not seeing her right away until she wouldn't be able to reel me back into her world. I'll admit the hurting part of me wanted her to stay the last month and then to meet her a couple weeks after the breakup, but I guess my mind was just able to yell at me enough not to do it. I'm hoping now she just quietly fades away out of my life for good.

Trick

[Trick1004]

Crying Wings.

Wow, you demonstrated such terrific boundaries in the midst of a confused and broken heart.  

I am sorry he treated you in such a poor manner. My hope is for your healing and from the way you handled the situation, you sound real solid.

Take care and thanks for posting,

C

Thank you but honestly I don't feel strong and I have no idea how I am maintaining these boundaries in the raging battle I find myself in.

It is really hard to be reasonable in this state and I'm doing everything in my power to do so. Truth is I don't want to be "HAD" anymore and I already feel that my dignity has been horribly compromised. Some things can't ever be corrected or undone. What he did to me falls under the category of something that can NEVER be undone. That is why I don't believe there can be closure nor would I want to give him the time of day. As agonizing as it is I know it's OVER so I don't need closure. What he did to me is closure and when I deeply think about it all I come back to the same dead end.

But at the very least I can ensure that he doesn't have the last carrot on the stick because that is EXACTLY what he needs to feed on. In a way that is the best closure I could give myself and retain what ever vestige of honor I have in this all.

I don't know if that makes sense but that is what I have concluded because ultimately I know he would just love to string me along. It would massage his ego, his 'needs' and he could continue living under the auspice that he could technically have me in some way if he wanted to continue living his 'theme'. I don't want to give him that option. In fact, I want to do the opposite. I want to ensure that he is NOT appeased by reaching me or ever talking to me again. I know it is only a matter of time before he will call me and 'check-in'. Well the phone will never be answered and he simply will just never know where I stand but all he will be left to think is that his worst nightmare was true. He will never talk to me again and he will know absolutely nothing about me because he will be cut off completely cold turkey just like he did.

He will feel abandoned and like he never meant anything to me. He will doubt that I ever truly loved him and he will in his way, yearn to at least make some connection without ever being able to. In his mind he desires some twisted vindication in me longing for him, but he also thinks that he has truly spared me because he loves me therefore some part of me should still love him. However, I'm okay with him NEVER getting that satisfaction because there cannot ever be real closure. Truth is the closure was always in every abusive behavior he did against me. Sound cruel? Well I don't harbor malice or ill will but I'm done with being his pawn and plaything. In the end he will be the one hanging and it will never be the closure or 'stringing' that he so 'needs' and yearns for.  His narcissism will absolutely hate it and that will slowly smolder within him. He will be like a pendulum swinging between rage and taking on the victim stance justified in all his 'black' delusions against me. But he will retreat to longing sometimes and there he will not find his peace with me in this all.

What he has done to me is not forgivable in the sense that it is not excusable even in his illness. I forgive him in 'spirit' and no single ill word was spoken by me when he so coldly dumped me. He has lived a life of being able to 'get away' with everything without truly understanding how it impacts people. Here is a chance at least for him to understand that another human being is not his play thing and that enough is enough. Sick or not he WILL be thinking about my NON-Response and underneath his cool layers it will burn him in some way. He will at first take the victim stance and like a simmering volcano the heat will increase into rage. Let it be so because I will NOT play into a lingering game of emotional torture just for his appeasement.

Forgive me if I have just ranted but I just felt that my argument is justified and that somehow even though I'm tortured through this all, I will not allow myself to cave anymore. I know the game even if he is ill but I just can't be the victim, who is the pretend rescuer only to discover that I was always the victim 'game' just to prolong what is already and always has been a sharp "Good-Bye". I'm not a cruel person but by nature I'm no one's victim in the END even in LOVE. I was his victim and protector long enough. (he doesn't need to know just how much I suffer, that is for me).



Rough Ride Indeed.

Excellent post surrender, and basically sums up how I feel towards my ex. My ex also left it up to me to contact her when I was ready. Ready for what? Like she was doing me a favor. I find it disturbing, especially because through this whole thing there has been no recognition or thanks on her part for what I did for her during the whole relationship (there was plenty).

Was it because I didn't give her a chance post-breakup? That can't be it, in one of the written letters I left for her I did acknowledge that despite the pain, I did treasure our time together and wouldn't trade the experience back. But I have gotten absolutely NOTHING back from her.

It's like she just buried the past four years away somewhere inside of her without reflecting at all. Well, I just don't care anymore, I'm tired of being in her world especially when I see a much better world without her.

It's scary how their brains/emotions work. Hope you are doing well.

Trick   

[talithacumi]

From Skip:

" ... . does looking at the bigger picture help?

The small picture was a lot of mixed signals and confusion by her actions.  If she was leaving, why didn't she make arrangements for the cat, why was she contacting you, what did she trying to do to you? Was it control? Payback? Maliciousness?

The big picture view is that she leaves to pursue another relationship.  This was "happy time" for her.  It was heartbreak city for you (thats a tough situation to live through). 

She was completely caught up in her happiness.  You were completely caught up in your pain. 

She wanted you to be a supportive buddy.  You agreed (when you kept the cat).  Her anger was not to control you - it was because you agreed to be the kennel and you then you made her deal with your hurt rather than act like a friend who agreed to hold a cat for a few months. 

The complexities and humiliation of the cat visits was not you being mean - it was you being heartbroken and wanting her to at least acknowledge your emotions at the time.

This was a boundary mess.  She had no respect for conventional post relationship boundaries. You were caught off guard and it took a little while for you to erect some boundaries.   It was not control.   It was not anger.  It wasn't about you or your feelings at all.

So why does she text you now when the photo of the two of you made ended up in a college exhibit?  Because you're the buddy and the only one she can share that excitement with. Her current ex wouldn't find that interesting.  It's probably no more than that. Her expectation most likely was for you to text back  "cool, where can I go to see it" .  It was a simple, uncomplicated, moment for her.

Has she demonized you?  The bigger picture would suggest she has little emotion about the whole thing."

That's it exactly!

Looking back and considering the big picture now, it's much easier to see that those first two or three months after he left me for another woman, he wasn't contacting me because he was having any second thoughts/doubts about that decision (which is what I most definitely hoped/thought it meant) - he was contacting me because, after being with me for 12+ years, he considered me his best friend/buddy and wanted to share his happiness/excitement about the new woman/relationship with me as such (how much I/our kids would really like her, how great she was in bed, how nice it was to finally be with someone who was so interesting and sweet, etc., etc.).

I used to sit there listening to him talk, or reading what he wrote absolutely astounded at what he was saying to me sometimes ... . and how hurt and/or angry at me he would get when I didn't respond the way he wanted/expected.

He really didn't get it.

But, then again, neither did I at the time.

NC helped clear the FOG, and posts like this help me frame my experience in ways that make it even clearer.

Tx Skip for bumping this up!