Do they know what they are doing to us?

[Depression = 72% of members]

I am new here and I have been reading alot of the posts. I see where its thought by some that a person with BPD is the evilist of evil. A liar,cheat and a scammer, as if the person with BPD is completely aware of theyre actions and the effect of them on others. So I am confused. are BPD's just bad people that enjoy hurting others or are they sick with a mental illness and unaware of actions and the effects of them?

I also have a question about the BPD living in a fantasy world. My ex BPD would spend hours talking about things we would do and things he wanted to do, hundreds of ideas. Never accomplishing a single one of them, even going for a drive in the country was dismissed as though he never said it. it was like his mind was on idea overload. I am pretty sharp and couldnt keep up with all the thoughts he would conjur up. Then he would act like he never said them and come up with new ones.

He would also change his mind minute to minute. Hed say lets do laundry 5 minutes later it was no lets do whatever. I just couldnt keep up with all the changes. One weekend he said lets go on a trip  to atlantic city, so I make travel arraigments and I pack and am ready to go and he says no no we arent going . That was the last time I trusted any idea of his. Anyone have any insight into this?

[brenbabe]

I am new here and I have been reading alot of the posts. I see where its thought by some that a person with BPD is the evilist of evil. A liar,cheat and a scammer, as if the person with BPD is completely aware of theyre actions and the effect of them on others. So I am confused. are BPD's just bad people that enjoy hurting others or are they sick with a mental illness and unaware of actions and the effects of them?

I also have a question about the BPD living in a fantasy world. My ex BPD would spend hours talking about things we would do and things he wanted to do, hundreds of ideas. Never accomplishing a single one of them, even going for a drive in the country was dismissed as though he never said it. it was like his mind was on idea overload. I am pretty sharp and couldnt keep up with all the thoughts he would conjur up. Then he would act like he never said them and come up with new ones.

He would also change his mind minute to minute. Hed say lets do laundry 5 minutes later it was no lets do whatever. I just couldnt keep up with all the changes. One weekend he said lets go on a trip  to atlantic city, so I make travel arraigments and I pack and am ready to go and he says no no we arent going . That was the last time I trusted any idea of his. Anyone have any insight into this?

[ve01603]

I am new here and I have been reading alot of the posts. I see where its thought by some that a person with BPD is the evilist of evil. A liar,cheat and a scammer, as if the person with BPD is completely aware of theyre actions and the effect of them on others. So I am confused. are BPD's just bad people that enjoy hurting others or are they sick with a mental illness and unaware of actions and the effects of them?

I also have a question about the BPD living in a fantasy world. My ex BPD would spend hours talking about things we would do and things he wanted to do, hundreds of ideas. Never accomplishing a single one of them, even going for a drive in the country was dismissed as though he never said it. it was like his mind was on idea overload. I am pretty sharp and couldnt keep up with all the thoughts he would conjur up. Then he would act like he never said them and come up with new ones.

He would also change his mind minute to minute. Hed say lets do laundry 5 minutes later it was no lets do whatever. I just couldnt keep up with all the changes. One weekend he said lets go on a trip  to atlantic city, so I make travel arraigments and I pack and am ready to go and he says no no we arent going . That was the last time I trusted any idea of his. Anyone have any insight into this?

Mine did exactly the same stuff.  It was totally weird.

Also, I am pretty good at reading people and in response to your first question, I think that he knew that he was hurting me and he knew how much I loved him and I think that when he knew that he was hurting me and pushing my buttons, he actually got off on it.

[David Dare]

I'm in the same boat as y'all.  I think once their use for us has dried up and we are painted black they begin to enjoy the sadism.  Not all pwBPD are the same, but I experienced that, for sure.  I think it's more towards the narcissistic end of the Cluster B spectrum.

[brenbabe]

I am starting to wonder which one is my real ex, the raging one or the tender gentle loving one. he was both. but I saw the loving side get flat, like numb or blah progressively diminish over time. The rage would be intense, nothing flat there.

[Josefina]

it seems like you are talking about my ex. But, crazy enough that attracted me for a while until it became very abusive verbally when her Jekil persona will come out

[Mariposa]

My current BPD partner is the same! Always lets do this, but we end up doing that! I never know if he means what he says with regarding plans! I'm starting to learn, that when he suggests something, to take it with a pinch of salt... .we may, or may not be going to the club he's said we are going to this weekend etc... .it's crazy!

[Indigo Sky]

So I am confused. are BPD's just bad people that enjoy hurting others or are they sick with a mental illness and unaware of actions and the effects of them?

I believe they are aware of what they do and understand it is wrong, but also believe they have an impaired conscience,they dont have the same empathy capability as others and they are in such inner pain, that they are really super focused on their needs.

even going for a drive in the country was dismissed as though he never said it. it was like his mind was on idea overload.

They do have problems with memory and also they have a tendency to re-write history.

He would also change his mind minute to minute.

I believe their emotions are super amplified, in a lot of inner pain and spend a lot of their resources trying to keep from dealing with their issues. It is not uncommon for them to have changing plans, their feelings drive their plans and their feelings (emotions) are in a constant state of change.

Yes, mine took a great deal of pleasure hurting me... .why? Because some BPD also are paranoid, lack the ability to trust others, and feel the world is out to get them... .in her mind, I had done something that warranted pay back... .

They have a mental illness and are to be pitied, I feel deeply sorry for them, their families, their partners and all who deal with them. They are still responsible for their actions, but I am not convinced I would do any different than them if I suffered from this mental illness.

What helped me was looking at why they do the things they do rather than take it personally. Realizing that this is who they are, that they wouldnt act any different with their next partner... .and in turn looking at myself, making changes to make my life better... .

Wishing you the best... .

[lifeisgoodx10]

I also have a question about the BPD living in a fantasy world. My ex BPD would spend hours talking about things we would do and things he wanted to do, hundreds of ideas. Never accomplishing a single one of them, even going for a drive in the country was dismissed as though he never said it. it was like his mind was on idea overload. I am pretty sharp and couldnt keep up with all the thoughts he would conjur up. Then he would act like he never said them and come up with new ones.

He would also change his mind minute to minute. Hed say lets do laundry 5 minutes later it was no lets do whatever. I just couldnt keep up with all the changes. One weekend he said lets go on a trip  to atlantic city, so I make travel arraigments and I pack and am ready to go and he says no no we arent going . That was the last time I trusted any idea of his. Anyone have any insight into this?

Bren, I’d like insight into this myself. The same thing happened over and over with xhBPD. He’d bring up some idea for plans and invite me to do so and so, then when the time came…….nothing………like we never had the conversation to begin with. He invited me to lunch with him one day (on my day off). He worked an hour away from our home so it took a little planning to do this. I worked the night before, came home and immediatle showered and dressed. I called him as I was driving into the city where he worked and he acted surprised (not in a good way) as if he knew nothing of our plans. He even ended up pissed at me! So I went over 24 hours with no sleep that day for him and he ends up mad at me for “what”!

Like you, I finally stopped putting any weight into his suggestions or invitations.

;p

[ArtistGuy70]

I believe at this stage (the painting me black stage) she knows what she is doing. But, here's the catch. I will not let her know how I am doing with all of it. I am acting the same I always would on facebook, the model mayhem, etc. I ignore all of her antics and  just go on with my life. I think that drives her nuts to  be honest. They hate, hate hate being ignored.

[brenbabe]

Has anyone heard a BPD after recovery speak about how they felt when hurting us?  or if the BPD really felt love ? 

[Totoro13]

I think they feel like they can never can get enough love, affection, or attention.  There is a hole in them that people can't fill.  They need to do it for themselves  but they can't.  I feel they can't truely love others until they work on fixing themselves and feeling good about themselves.

I think they know they are hurting us, but feel that they hurt so much more then we do.  Their main focus is dealing with their pain and not our pain.  With mine I think he felt out of control in his life and what made him feel better is being able to control others.  The distortion and lies are a way to keep us off balance which makes him feel more in control.  It felt like he felt so bad about himself, looked at me and thought I was better then him so he needed to knock me down to his level or below in order to feel better.  A very bully mentality.

[ArtistGuy70]

Has anyone heard a BPD after recovery speak about how they felt when hurting us?  or if the BPD really felt love ? 

I did a photoshoot the other day with a girl who is admittedly BPD. She has been in therapy for two years. She told me "I still don't know what real love is. Probably never will."

[ve01603]

My current BPD partner is the same! Always lets do this, but we end up doing that! I never know if he means what he says with regarding plans! I'm starting to learn, that when he suggests something, to take it with a pinch of salt... .we may, or may not be going to the club he's said we are going to this weekend etc... .it's crazy!

Makes it hard to get anything done.  I know. Mine was the same.

[paul16]

They know. The better question is do they care?

I come here and read posts from people who are where I was a while back and wonder. How long will it take for them. I continually see where a "disorder" is used as an excuse for the malicious and near evil behavior of our exes. A good exercise, I think, is to replace the term disorder with f****d up. So a "personality disorder" becomes "someone with a f****d up personality."

I take caution anytime I hear someone in the mental health community use a diagnosis which includes the word disorder. There are hundreds of disorders listed in the DSM-IV. I have some traits from about 1/3 of them.

So do you... .

[TonyC]

my ex after all the therapies... , meds , teachings and support...

never accpepted that she had a problem...

it was everyone else... it was was who ever was in stiriking distance was gonna get something...

so in my case she would know some event took place... .and it was always them... or me...

and my ex was BPD with a mix of other stuff

and i could say to her ... you just cursed out a five y.o kid...

and she would say... he shouldnt have done that...

[The_411]

They know and they do care but they're feelings or emptiness/ pain etc are so great that they outweight their capacity to care.

[JWS]

I am starting to wonder which one is my real ex, the raging one or the tender gentle loving one. he was both. but I saw the loving side get flat, like numb or blah progressively diminish over time. The rage would be intense, nothing flat there.

All sides are the real one. They are delusional and in their mind they are perfectly normal and right so all sides were your BPDSO

[Blythe1976]

They know. The better question is do they care?

I totally agree. They know. Of course they know. But narcissism is such a strong component of BPD (and many BPDs are also NPD) that they simply don't care. That's where that whole "lack of empathy" comes in. They only feel their own pain. Their needs are more important than your. Their feelings are more important than yours. How many of you have ever heard this line after being raged at, degraded, humiliated, lied to, cheated on, gaslighted, etc:

"Oh, stop it with the crying and feeling sorry for yourself! You're just trying to make me feel guilty! You make such a big deal about nothing!"

[seeking balance]

I totally agree. They know. Of course they know. But narcissism is such a strong component of BPD (and many BPDs are also NPD) that they simply don't care. That's where that whole "lack of empathy" comes in. They only feel their own pain. Their needs are more important than your. Their feelings are more important than yours. How many of you have ever heard this line after being raged at, degraded, humiliated, lied to, cheated on, gaslighted, etc:

This is right on the money - they do know, but they are in so much pain that they will literally do anything to relieve that emotional pain.  They blame the emotional pain on thier SO, because they cannot look in the mirror - they have no real sense of self.

Has anyone heard a BPD after recovery speak about how they felt when hurting us?  or if the BPD really felt love ? 

The best recovering person that I heard speak was Tami Green on youtube.  She is the exception, not the rule regarding recovery.

[Indigo Sky]

Do they know what they are doing to us?

Forgot to add, mine knew exactly what she was doing to me, also when you think that she has other partners, more than likely she was getting better at what she was doing.

She knew she was holding back terms of endearment.SHe knew how to make me happy and withheld.

She told me that she needed me to feel nervous and on edge (ie she was with other partners and needed me to suspect).

They have self destructive coping methods that just keep repeating.

My ex needed excitement and turmoil, she received this when she was starting a new relationship, destroying the relationship and then destroying her life so she could again be the waif, the damsel in destress waiting to be saved, the cyle just keeps repeating itself. She cant live happily ever after.

To me, they are doing these really bad things to their partners to fill their needs, that is the primary reason for their actions.

Has anyone heard a BPD after recovery speak about how they felt when hurting us?  or if the BPD really felt love ? 

Copied this from this site, it is from a member here, hope it is helpful,

https://bpdfamily.com/content/how-borderline-relationship-evolves

Love when you have Borderline Personality Disorder... .

Some partners of people with BPD worry the relationship was just a game, that their SO was using them and felt nothing for them. That’s not true.

I am a recovering BP.

Before, when I was in a relationship, my feelings felt genuine. I didn’t have a conscious ulterior motive. There was an authentic connection; and while it may have been unhealthy and for the wrong reasons, it was, in my mind, real.

I acted as if I was in love because I thought I was.

The bond that occurred in the beginning of a relationship was incredible: there was a deep (false) sense of knowing the other person intimately, intuitively. He became my whole world and it was wonderful, rapturous. When my boyfriends left – and they invariably left – that world was anhiliated; everything fell to ashes.

The break-up that led to my hard-won recovery from BPD left me literally slumped on the floor, crushed in spirit, feeling as if there was no meaning in my life.

I was close to killing myself - too defeated and broken to even move. The saddest thing about the situation was that I was the cause of my pain, yet had little idea then that it was due to my own behavior.

So yes, the love is “real”, but only in the sense of how it feels to the person with BPD: the feelings seem real, they feel like love.

But it’s not love because it’s based on need rather than on true caring and intimacy, which is the real love we all deserve.

~Oceanheart (anonymous bpdfamily.com member)

[Lizzie]

I agree with pretty much everything written here and the various reasons why.

I think they are aware of what they are doing.  I don't want to generalize all pwBPD.  Based on the 2 I had experience with and reading boards for pwBPD they seem very aware of it imo. 

With the guy I dated, I did something unethical once I started getting a strong suspicion he was BPD and I got scared so I read his journaling.  I know it's completely wrong.  He was aware of a lot of things.  Maybe not in the moment he was doing some of it, but he wasn't in the dark.  The thing was that he seemed to have no insight into why he behaved the way he did and his writing was full of justifications for himself.  Amazing really the insight I got from that.  From day one he claimed he wasn't a jealous person, but in his journals it was all jealousy with past girlfriends.  It gave me the strength to get away when I read that stuff.  In particular, there were situations with 2, TWO!, ex girlfriends where he was upset that they had gone out with friends one night when he didn't want them to, the girls came home drunk and he abused them sexually when they came home and had passed out drunk.  Sick.  How could someone who could do that twice to their unconscious girlfriend ever be trusted.  His self excuses were that he was under the influence.  Whatever, lots of people that are under the influence themselves don't rape their passed out girlfriends.

[Totoro13]

Lizzie,

the pattern of being aware of the problem but instead of trying to change just repeating a bad decision over and over and over again each time a similar situation happened was what I saw in my ex.

There was no change over time and lots of justifications.

That must of been horrible to read. x

[It_seemed_fine]

They are fully aware of what they do (or did) to us.  Cheating on me, Jerry Springer Style, her response was "but I did it for me, I didn't do it against you."  After months of therapy on that, she admitted that she knew it would hurt me if I found out (which I did, lock, stock and barrel) but said that she was more concerned about her own needs, and they were more important to her than whether I was hurt or not. 

That's just one example.  They know.  They play stupid when it suits their purpose.

[brenbabe]

Ok, so if they know what they are doing , why is it called a disorder? Sounds to me like this is just crappy mean selfish and even dangerous behavior coming from an emotionally immature person.

[cmk]

I believe they know what they are doing but are helpless to a certain extent, to stopping themselves. I would tell my ex he was cruel and that I felt helpless but he didn't stop. One thing about this disorder is I think many are extremely impulsive and don't have normal social skills.


I think you and I may be around someone annoying and we could "bite our tongues". They don't really seem to have that filter.

[OverBoard]

  It felt like he felt so bad about himself, looked at me and thought I was better then him so he needed to knock me down to his level or below in order to feel better.  A very bully mentality.[/quote]
Mine actually "said" this is what she was doing to me.

[brenbabe]

Thats exactly what they are "  child bullies in an adult body"  a bully is a coward. They wimper and run when they get a taste of theyre own medicine.

[seeking balance]

Ok, so if they know what they are doing , why is it called a disorder? Sounds to me like this is just crappy mean selfish and even dangerous behavior coming from an emotionally immature person.

This is where we need 2010 to jump in for the why it is a disorder.   

My 2 cents: I think we make the mistake that they think like us.  We can be rational about their behaviour, and they might know of their actions, but they do not feel it in the same way we do.   There is also descent data regarding the brain in pwBPD functioning differently regarding emotions.  Even those that get treatment go through a HUGE amount of work to really "get" what it means that tehy are emotionally disordered.  Nobody wants to be told they are different, let alone with something as fragile as our personalities. 

Now, does this mean we should take their abuse - no.

But it is a disorder, it is not as simple as just "deciding" to be better.   When you read about DBT treatment and Marsha Linihan developing it,  you do realize that it is a disorder and not just bad behaviour.

[lets]

IMO they do know- remember projection...

mine called me a bully, selfish, cheap, promise breaker, liar etc etc- which of course were all him. 

He knew it was him, couldn't face the pain, split and projected on me- so yes they know- but quickly project, blame and forget.

[NonBPDLookingForAnswers]

I think they feel like they can never can get enough love, affection, or attention.  There is a hole in them that people can't fill.   They need to do it for themselves  but they can't.  I feel they can't truely love others until they work on fixing themselves and feeling good about themselves.

I think they know they are hurting us, but feel that they hurt so much more then we do.  Their main focus is dealing with their pain and not our pain.  With mine I think he felt out of control in his life and what made him feel better is being able to control others.   The distortion and lies are a way to keep us off balance which makes him feel more in control.  It felt like he felt so bad about himself, looked at me and thought I was better then him so he needed to knock me down to his level or below in order to feel better.   A very bully mentality.

Totoro, you hit the nail on the head... .

[Crystal Ball]

Nobody wants to be told they are different, let alone with something as fragile as our personalities. 

My uBPDxbf would tell me he was 'different'.  He couldn't understand why the rest of the world didn't see things his way. Of course, his view was the correct one. 

I never thought about this until now.     I wasn't aware of BPD until after we broke up.

[JWS]

Nobody wants to be told they are different, let alone with something as fragile as our personalities. 

My uBPDxbf would tell me he was 'different'.  He couldn't understand why the rest of the world didn't see things his way. Of course, his view was the correct one. 

I never thought about this until now.     I wasn't aware of BPD until after we broke up.

Oh my Lord. My uBPDxgf used to always say to me, your different you "get" me. What a hook that was huh? Oh she saw the world her way all right!

[2010]

1)   Unpredictable behavior is the hallmark of the disordered.

2)   Unpredictable behavior eventually becomes predictable.

3)   The behavior is compulsory. The behavior is done to everyone. Do not take it personally.

4)   Anger about being the recipient of bad behavior is the first stage of protecting your heart and getting away and healing.

[brenbabe]

2010, I am so glad you posted.

What do you think?  Do they know they are hurting others or are they totally unaware?

[paul16]

Again... .try replacing disordered with f****d up. It sounds less clinical.

Disorders are someone's opinion. So is f****d up.

I am a very shy person. Some would call that "social anxiety disorder."

[Josefina]

I still love my BPD after a 5 crazy years of a r/s that went on and off. they do know what they are doing but they can't help it. My ex told me one day I wish I can go off for 4 months and do my own thing and come back and all will be ok. She meant her "own" thing being unfaithful, cheating and having a r/s with someone else, just for the fun of it. She had at least three r/s going at the same time. I was one of them. She at the end told me finally She knew how I felt because she was finally "in-love" with this new person. Why does she tells me this? when she knows I till love her?. She states she does not want to hurt me but yet comes to my house and attacks me physically to show her "new" love that I mean nothing? after 5 years? I still feel sorry and want to help but I can't. I need to help myself first. Now, all doors have been closed. No phone, no text, no emails... .her new"love: forbid her to communicate with me. She is so lost control of her life and I feel sorry. I still want to help. But, she always knew what she was doing... she planned everything believe or not... .=( why do they always have the upper hand?, why do we have a site to know how to deal with them? since we "need" them so much? why don't they have a site to understand the "normal" best and deal with "us". Why are they so special and we cant move on and they do? is this fair?

[TonyC]

no its not fair...

but the thing is... .your ex does not feel like shes done anything wrong... .

[Josefina]

Yes, last time I met her  a couple of month ago I said to her: you need to apologize... .and she asked me... .for what? I was disgausted of how fresh and guilt free she felt. Like she did nothing. After she had cornered me and jumped up and down as a little kid and stated and screamed at me... .all I wanted was an appartment that you will get for me... you are so stupid honey... I just love my new bf. he was there in the room. She manipulated him to bring me into the room and she proceeded to attack me. Why do I still feel she has something good to offer, because I understood her childhood traumas? and I listened and validated her life and stories, ? because I trusted her and was willing to give my life to her? ... was it nothing to her? did it mean nothing? I can not just accept and believe that///It ois not possible that someone can be that heartless and inconsiderate... She looked at my eyes and said I love you. I believed that... .

[2010]

Again... .try replacing disordered with f****d up. It sounds less clinical.

Disorders are someone's opinion. So is f****d up.

Ok, so if they know what they are doing , why is it called a disorder? Sounds to me like this is just crappy mean selfish and even dangerous behavior coming from an emotionally immature person.

Well, let’s start off with the crappy mean selfish and even dangerous behavior vs. disorder debate.  Messed up behavior can be a mistake. (We can easily forgive people for mistakes.)  If the messed up behavior is done again- we have every right to suspect that the behavior is no longer a mistake but a *choice.* (Healthy people usually make a choice to learn from and take care not to repeat their mistakes.)

If the messed up behavior is done to us again- we can safely say that there’s something afoot here, perhaps a patterning of behavior that is a good predictor of future behavior down the road.  If the messed up behavior continues and we know that the person knows that its wrong- then we can safely say it’s a compulsion.  Compulsive behavior is any distorted behavior that’s done, not because they *want* to behave that way- but because *they feel they have to* -in order to exist.   Often the compulsive behavior is the reason for the diagnosis of the personality *dis*order.

A disorder means there’s a few behavioral wires crossed that are noteworthy in causing difficulties. The behavior becomes a part of the personality.

Which brings us to the age old riddle: if a tree falls down in the forest and there’s no one there to hear it- does it make a sound?  Yes/No? Ok. What if the tree falls in front of a deaf person?  :)o they hear a sound?  The answers lie in our perception of the exact nature of sound.  What it means to us might be different to someone else. That goes for abuse too. Surely it means something different to us all.

If we take that riddle further and ask: if a person does crappy, mean, selfish and even dangerous behavior and there’s no one there to witness it- does it still count as crappy, mean, and selfish behavior? The answers lie in our perception of our idea of abuse and how it applies to us.  Surely abuse means something different to us all, but it does undermine the nature of trust.

What we perceive and what we choose to believe about ourselves (being the recipients of bad behavior) says allot about whether or not we feel we can control (trust) whether it happens again.  Calling it compulsive behavior determines what we cannot do a thing about it.  It is a part of a personality now.  A compulsion is done to everyone.

Most people come to the site thinking they did something to cause this wonderful person to be so cruel. It is hard to let go of this idealized figure that mirrored and adored us.  It is a great loss to suffer after finally finding them; finding meaning, companionship, compatibility.  This person was a dream come true and now they're gone. They have been replaced with an unfit, sick impostor who cruelly and sadistically tortures us and sees our reaction but just doesn’t care that we are in pain. Why does this person who idealized us at one point now make us feel so badly? Did they ever care?  It’s almost as though they are playing a game and they just don’t care who they hurt.  Unknown to you, there is a reason for this behavior and there is a pattern that emerges from both sides.

That’s where Harry Stack Sullivan comes in.  Harry Stack Sullivan was the very first psychoanalyst to mention the “significant other” and our roles in personality disorders.  Sullivan said, well, thanks Freud for all that clinical psyche stuff and all, but a SELF really only matters when it comes into contact with others.  So if we return to our riddle again and ask: if a person does crappy, mean, selfish and even dangerous behavior and there’s no one there to witness it- does it still count as crappy, mean, and selfish behavior?  According to Sullivan, the best measure of a Man is in how he treats us.  Because of this, we can only know him in the terms of how we interact with him.  In other words, we have to pay attention to his "actions," not the words he writes or what we project (think) is going on “inside” his head.

Sullivan also gave us an idea of the motivations of the SELF and the possibility that it could get lambasted and twisted up by early teachings by parents. He wrote about the woes of the infant finding out that he was not really the center of the Universe as he once thought: “Once upon a time everything was lovely, but that was before I had to deal with people.”  He described the infant’s solution to dealing with these other personalities in life by creating a series of interlocking I-YOU behaviors for protection against anxiety, which Sullivan felt gave the infant “security.”

In I-YOU definition, if I act weak and helpless, then my Parents will protect me. If I smile when my parents want me to smile (mirroring) then my parents will smile and mirror me back, etc.  Everybody’s happy! Pretty soon an I-YOU pattern emerges that can be counted on.  The kid says, hey! This stuff works!

Sullivan noted that sometimes these I-YOU definitions got stuck in rigid, ritualistic ideals of the parent which dominated the child’s reactions. These ideals of themselves were sometimes anxious and consequently got stuck in I-YOU definitions of mistrust which were then carried into their adult lives, completely overlaying onto other people their incorrect perceptions, in turn stripping those same people of their very individuality and turning them into echoes and shadows of the escaped from- hypercritical, parental figures that existed in their head.

Sullivan called these behaviors parataxic integrations, and he noted that such action-reaction combinations became rigid and dominated the thinking pattern, compulsively responding in actions and reactions toward the world as the adult now sees it but not as the World really exists.  The resulting inaccuracies in judgment Sullivan termed parataxic distortion, when other people are evaluated and perceived to be familiar based on the child’s patterns of previous experience.

So, Borderline follows a series of rewarding and withdrawing behaviors. In female Borderlines’ the rewarding behaviors are interlocking I-YOU’s with Waif/rescuer and Queen/King combating each other for dominance and submission.  The Witch makes an appearance between acts for a cleansing rage when the rescuer doesn't rescue or the King laughs/controls/mocks the Queen.  The Hermit comes into existence later on when the pain that’s felt is too much to handle. (At that point the Borderline sort of retreats into obscurity.)  In male Borderlines’ the rewarding behaviors are interlocking I-YOU’s with Orphan/rescuer and King/Queen combating each other for dominance and submission.  The Warlock makes an appearance between acts for a cleansing rage when the rescuer doesn't rescue or the Queen laughs/controls/mocks the King.  The Hermit comes into existence later on when the pain that’s felt is too much to handle. (At that point the Borderline sort of retreats into obscurity.)

That is, in I-YOU definition, if I act weak and helpless, then you, like my Parents, must be solicitous and care taking (female Waif, male Orphan). If I am gorgeous, then you must be admiring of my beauty (Queen, King) and so on. Pretty soon an I-YOU pattern emerges that can be counted on by the Borderline. If I do this, you’ll do that- like clockwork.  If it doesn’t work, the provoking anxiety turns to rage (the Witch/Warlock are either passive aggressive or they act-out to keep control- if that doesn't work then *poof* withdrawing behavior- and time to search for a new rewarding "interlocker" that is, if one hasn't been found and lined up already.)

It is a pattern.   Borderlines fail at living productive lives and instead repeat the same unsatisfying actions over and over again in repetitious compulsion to re-live their childhood thoughts of persecution and slavery.  Borderlines live in a revolving door process.  There is an opening and there is an exit on this spinning chamber- but once they get you inside they hope to stay still- but other people in their head (that you are unaware of) keep pushing them around and they keep distorting who those persecuting people actually are.  Quick guess: it’s now you.

Rather than telling you exactly how they feel-(controlled and persecuted by childhood demons) they are intrapsychically re-working masochism and sadism through their relationship with you.  They are doing to you exactly what they feel was done to them by their childhood caretakers and they are watching you carefully spin around as you die by a thousand sadistic paper-cuts.  You are a stand-in for Mom and Dad.  Meanwhile, they re out the revolving door.

This isn't just mean spirited behavior.  It's compulsive. This behavior was in place long before you came into the picture.   If you take it personally you will not heal.  :)o not seek revenge or worse, try to spend your life arguing with them. You have to learn that a compulsion is behavior that’s done to *everyone*- it is painful and self-serving for them- but pointless and stupid at the same time. It never accomplishes what it sets out to do- to overcome the initial battle with people that exist and persecute and live inside their heads.  That's not your job to get in there and figure it out for them- they'll only see you as their hypercritical parent.  This is all about distortion and it's what got you here.

Either way we must admit to ourselves that it is a pattern, and it is a pattern that repeats itself in inter *actions* with others.  (I think that’s the light bulb that goes off when people first google and come to this site.)  Eureka, I didn’t cause this. It’s not because of me. There is a pattern, it is behavioral, and it is a compulsion.

The fused, idealistic coupling that you shared with this person must go away. You'll begin to mend when you get some distance from the addictive intensity of the I-YOU interlock that suffers from such great distortions and mistrust. You should be angry over the betrayal but just enough to reasonably understand that this isn't a shameful experience that you caused- It was actually a great gift of seeing yourself mirrored and adored- but not realistic. This thought will eventually give way to sadness and that will work it's way out of your heart with pangs of wanting and hopes for a reconciliation to prove to yourself that I'm wrong. These doubts will lessen when you review the behavior. You'll begin to see it for what it was, a scripted, one sided arrangement that facilitated their distortions of you and gave them errors in judgment over who you were.  The only way to prove them wrong is to stop engaging and giving them what they want (a persecutor) and walk away.

it’s* not*your* fault* this happened

[JWS]

Again... .try replacing disordered with f****d up. It sounds less clinical.

Disorders are someone's opinion. So is f****d up.

Ok, so if they know what they are doing , why is it called a disorder? Sounds to me like this is just crappy mean selfish and even dangerous behavior coming from an emotionally immature person.

Well, let’s start off with the crappy mean selfish and even dangerous behavior vs. disorder debate.  Messed up behavior can be a mistake. (We can easily forgive people for mistakes.)  If the messed up behavior is done again- we have every right to suspect that the behavior is no longer a mistake but a *choice.* (Healthy people usually make a choice to learn from and take care not to repeat their mistakes.)

If the messed up behavior is done to us again- we can safely say that there’s something afoot here, perhaps a patterning of behavior that is a good predictor of future behavior down the road.  If the messed up behavior continues and we know that the person knows that its wrong- then we can safely say it’s a compulsion.  Compulsive behavior is any distorted behavior that’s done, not because they *want* to behave that way- but because *they feel they have to* -in order to exist.   Often the compulsive behavior is the reason for the diagnosis of the personality *dis*order.

A disorder means there’s a few behavioral wires crossed that are noteworthy in causing difficulties. The behavior becomes a part of the personality.

Which brings us to the age old riddle: if a tree falls down in the forest and there’s no one there to hear it- does it make a sound?  Yes/No? Ok. What if the tree falls in front of a deaf person?  :)o they hear a sound?  The answers lie in our perception of the exact nature of sound.  What it means to us might be different to someone else. That goes for abuse too. Surely it means something different to us all.

If we take that riddle further and ask: if a person does crappy, mean, selfish and even dangerous behavior and there’s no one there to witness it- does it still count as crappy, mean, and selfish behavior? The answers lie in our perception of our idea of abuse and how it applies to us.  Surely abuse means something different to us all, but it does undermine the nature of trust.

What we perceive and what we choose to believe about ourselves (being the recipients of bad behavior) says allot about whether or not we feel we can control (trust) whether it happens again.  Calling it compulsive behavior determines what we cannot do a thing about it.  It is a part of a personality now.  A compulsion is done to everyone.

Most people come to the site thinking they did something to cause this wonderful person to be so cruel. It is hard to let go of this idealized figure that mirrored and adored us.  It is a great loss to suffer after finally finding them; finding meaning, companionship, compatibility.  This person was a dream come true and now they're gone. They have been replaced with an unfit, sick impostor who cruelly and sadistically tortures us and sees our reaction but just doesn’t care that we are in pain. Why does this person who idealized us at one point now make us feel so badly? Did they ever care?  It’s almost as though they are playing a game and they just don’t care who they hurt.  Unknown to you, there is a reason for this behavior and there is a pattern that emerges from both sides.

That’s where Harry Stack Sullivan comes in.  Harry Stack Sullivan was the very first psychoanalyst to mention the “significant other” and our roles in personality disorders.  Sullivan said, well, thanks Freud for all that clinical psyche stuff and all, but a SELF really only matters when it comes into contact with others.  So if we return to our riddle again and ask: if a person does crappy, mean, selfish and even dangerous behavior and there’s no one there to witness it- does it still count as crappy, mean, and selfish behavior?  According to Sullivan, the best measure of a Man is in how he treats us.  Because of this, we can only know him in the terms of how we interact with him.  In other words, we have to pay attention to his "actions," not the words he writes or what we project (think) is going on “inside” his head.

Sullivan also gave us an idea of the motivations of the SELF and the possibility that it could get lambasted and twisted up by early teachings by parents. He wrote about the woes of the infant finding out that he was not really the center of the Universe as he once thought: “Once upon a time everything was lovely, but that was before I had to deal with people.”  He described the infant’s solution to dealing with these other personalities in life by creating a series of interlocking I-YOU behaviors for protection against anxiety, which Sullivan felt gave the infant “security.”

In I-YOU definition, if I act weak and helpless, then my Parents will protect me. If I smile when my parents want me to smile (mirroring) then my parents will smile and mirror me back, etc.  Everybody’s happy! Pretty soon an I-YOU pattern emerges that can be counted on.  The kid says, hey! This stuff works!

Sullivan noted that sometimes these I-YOU definitions got stuck in rigid, ritualistic ideals of the parent which dominated the child’s reactions. These ideals of themselves were sometimes anxious and consequently got stuck in I-YOU definitions of mistrust which were then carried into their adult lives, completely overlaying onto other people their incorrect perceptions, in turn stripping those same people of their very individuality and turning them into echoes and shadows of the escaped from- hypercritical, parental figures that existed in their head.

Sullivan called these behaviors parataxic integrations, and he noted that such action-reaction combinations became rigid and dominated the thinking pattern, compulsively responding in actions and reactions toward the world as the adult now sees it but not as the World really exists.  The resulting inaccuracies in judgment Sullivan termed parataxic distortion, when other people are evaluated and perceived to be familiar based on the child’s patterns of previous experience.

So, Borderline follows a series of rewarding and withdrawing behaviors. In female Borderlines’ the rewarding behaviors are interlocking I-YOU’s with Waif/rescuer and Queen/King combating each other for dominance and submission.  The Witch makes an appearance between acts for a cleansing rage when the rescuer doesn't rescue or the King laughs/controls/mocks the Queen.  The Hermit comes into existence later on when the pain that’s felt is too much to handle. (At that point the Borderline sort of retreats into obscurity.)  In male Borderlines’ the rewarding behaviors are interlocking I-YOU’s with Orphan/rescuer and King/Queen combating each other for dominance and submission.  The Warlock makes an appearance between acts for a cleansing rage when the rescuer doesn't rescue or the Queen laughs/controls/mocks the King.  The Hermit comes into existence later on when the pain that’s felt is too much to handle. (At that point the Borderline sort of retreats into obscurity.)

That is, in I-YOU definition, if I act weak and helpless, then you, like my Parents, must be solicitous and care taking (female Waif, male Orphan). If I am gorgeous, then you must be admiring of my beauty (Queen, King) and so on. Pretty soon an I-YOU pattern emerges that can be counted on by the Borderline. If I do this, you’ll do that- like clockwork.  If it doesn’t work, the provoking anxiety turns to rage (the Witch/Warlock are either passive aggressive or they act-out to keep control- if that doesn't work then *poof* withdrawing behavior- and time to search for a new rewarding "interlocker" that is, if one hasn't been found and lined up already.)

It is a pattern.   Borderlines fail at living productive lives and instead repeat the same unsatisfying actions over and over again in repetitious compulsion to re-live their childhood thoughts of persecution and slavery.  Borderlines live in a revolving door process.  There is an opening and there is an exit on this spinning chamber- but once they get you inside they hope to stay still- but other people in their head (that you are unaware of) keep pushing them around and they keep distorting who those persecuting people actually are.  Quick guess: it’s now you.

Rather than telling you exactly how they feel-(controlled and persecuted by childhood demons) they are intrapsychically re-working masochism and sadism through their relationship with you.  They are doing to you exactly what they feel was done to them by their childhood caretakers and they are watching you carefully spin around as you die by a thousand sadistic paper-cuts.  You are a stand-in for Mom and Dad.  Meanwhile, they re out the revolving door.

This isn't just mean spirited behavior.  It's compulsive. This behavior was in place long before you came into the picture.   If you take it personally you will not heal.  :)o not seek revenge or worse, try to spend your life arguing with them. You have to learn that a compulsion is behavior that’s done to *everyone*- it is painful and self-serving for them- but pointless and stupid at the same time. It never accomplishes what it sets out to do- to overcome the initial battle with people that exist and persecute and live inside their heads.  That's not your job to get in there and figure it out for them- they'll only see you as their hypercritical parent.  This is all about distortion and it's what got you here.

Either way we must admit to ourselves that it is a pattern, and it is a pattern that repeats itself in inter *actions* with others.  (I think that’s the light bulb that goes off when people first google and come to this site.)  Eureka, I didn’t cause this. It’s not because of me. There is a pattern, it is behavioral, and it is a compulsion.

The fused, idealistic coupling that you shared with this person must go away. You'll begin to mend when you get some distance from the addictive intensity of the I-YOU interlock that suffers from such great distortions and mistrust. You should be angry over the betrayal but just enough to reasonably understand that this isn't a shameful experience that you caused- It was actually a great gift of seeing yourself mirrored and adored- but not realistic. This thought will eventually give way to sadness and that will work it's way out of your heart with pangs of wanting and hopes for a reconciliation to prove to yourself that I'm wrong. These doubts will lessen when you review the behavior. You'll begin to see it for what it was, a scripted, one sided arrangement that facilitated their distortions of you and gave them errors in judgment over who you were.  The only way to prove them wrong is to stop engaging and giving them what they want (a persecutor) and walk away.

it’s* not*your* fault* this happened

This is by far IMHO, an excellent read and one of the best observations I have seen on this forum. Thank you 2010. Highly insightful and helpful.

[David Dare]

Slam dunk by 2010!  I love it!       

[Josefina]

Yes indeed! Thanks!

[Derrah]

I take caution anytime I hear someone in the mental health community use a diagnosis which includes the word disorder. There are hundreds of disorders listed in the DSM-IV. I have some traits from about 1/3 of them.

So do you... .

Good point. Everyone has traits of SOMETHING in the DSM. It's just a matter of how well we are able to function. When someone is impaired in their ability to make and maintain close interpersonal relationships (family, friends), maintain employment, and has other difficulties that interfere with achieving a meaningful life, that really is a disorder, don't you think?

Just found this thread. I think it raises really interesting questions!

[Derrah]

I believe they know what they are doing but are helpless to a certain extent, to stopping themselves. I would tell my ex he was cruel and that I felt helpless but he didn't stop. One thing about this disorder is I think many are extremely impulsive and don't have normal social skills.

I think you and I may be around someone annoying and we could "bite our tongues". They don't really seem to have that filter.

This is similar to my experience with my uBPD/NPDh. At a moments notice he would begin verbally tearing into me like an attack dog tearing into flesh. I would cry out to him and tell him, "You are destroying me with your words and behavior." Most days, he would just escalate. Every now and then (rarely) it's as if there was a crack in his defenses - he would become tender and say, "You're right. I'm sorry. You don't deserve any of this." And then, within minutes or hours (never longer) the wall would go back up and verbal attacks were fair game again. I wonder if he really looked at his behavior if he would have the ego strength to bear the monster he has been to me and our children. Sad... .

[brenbabe]

2010, thank you so much. Your post really says it all.

[Totoro13]

Well written 2010.  Thanks for sharing that.

As a wrote somewhere in this thread... .the pattern of being aware of the problem but instead of trying to change just repeating a bad decision over and over and over again each time a similar situation happened was what I saw in my ex. really raises the red flag.

We all probably at one time displayed some behaviors on the list for BPD, but the big difference is when we except that when we crossed the line sometimes/mess-up  we can/do change that behavior next time.  Someone with BPD just continues to repeat the behavior. 

I actually had this conversation with my ex before we split.  When we were at the end of the relationship he had listed things he didn't like that I did and I listed my list of his actions.  Even with a list and talking about it his behaviors continued with no change, yet I listened to his complaints and change.  I brought up that I seem to be able to change my behaviors yet he doesn't change his.  This is also the time he was projecting on to me that I was the one with BPD.  When I mentioned his lack of change that really set him off bad.   He seemed aware of his compulsion and what I was saying was true.

His relentless accusations that it was all me and that I was crazy did after awhile make me think that it must be me.  This was one of the conversations and things I was trying to work through that made me see it wasn't me.  Over and over again I changed and tries harder and there was NEVER any change on his side.  He would say the right things but his actions did not match his words.  For 20 years he would try to say the right thing but his behaviors where opposite to his words. 

The only way to prove them wrong is to stop engaging and giving them what they want (a persecutor) and walk away.

so true.  I have some issues I'm dealing with the court on things he has done that was way out of line.  I know if they throw him an jail for a few days , which I really think will happen, in his head I just became more and more the villain.  He will never accept it as he can't keep screwing me over and doing thing to "get even" with me.  But maybe he will stop because he doesn't want to be locked up?  Hoping at least.

[hiddenlizard]

"Messed up behavior can be a mistake."

"If the messed up behavior is done again- we have every right to suspect that the behavior is no longer a mistake but a *choice.*"

"If the messed up behavior is done to us again- we can safely say that there’s something afoot here, perhaps a patterning of behavior that is a good predictor of future behavior down the road."

Thank you, 2010, for all your wisdom but for these lines in particular, and even more for this:

"Anger about being the recipient of bad behavior is the first stage of protecting your heart and getting away and healing."