Intimacy

[Depression = 72% of members]

Okay-- don't know if this is a proper topic for this board, but I was wondering about other people's experiences.

Intimacy with my exBP was, simply put, amazing and extremely gratifying, in the beginning.  Not just sex, but also the closeness, the cuddling, the gentleness and tenderness . . . I felt so safe and like I was finally home.

He was still so tender and gentle with me up until the end, although within the first four or five months the sex went downhill.  He lost interest and nothing I did really seemed to help.  By then I was afraid of him, as we'd already had violent episodes (myself as the victim).  My fear made him nervous and irritable, I'm sure because it reminded him of this shameful aspect of himself.

Two things puzzle me: is it normal for a BP to lose interest in sex so quickly?  Also, were your exBPs tender and gentle one moment, then abusive (verbally or physically) a short time later?  What on earth can make someone that way?  I read once that once physical intimacy is achieved and normal, it's like it can be turned around as a doorway for physical abuse.  It certainly seems that way.

He was loving with me right till the end.  It made it harder to leave, but I couldn't live in fear any longer, no matter how much gratification I got during the times when he was tender.  I didn't feel safe anymore.

Grim

[grimalkin]

Okay-- don't know if this is a proper topic for this board, but I was wondering about other people's experiences.

Intimacy with my exBP was, simply put, amazing and extremely gratifying, in the beginning.  Not just sex, but also the closeness, the cuddling, the gentleness and tenderness . . . I felt so safe and like I was finally home.

He was still so tender and gentle with me up until the end, although within the first four or five months the sex went downhill.  He lost interest and nothing I did really seemed to help.  By then I was afraid of him, as we'd already had violent episodes (myself as the victim).  My fear made him nervous and irritable, I'm sure because it reminded him of this shameful aspect of himself.

Two things puzzle me: is it normal for a BP to lose interest in sex so quickly?  Also, were your exBPs tender and gentle one moment, then abusive (verbally or physically) a short time later?  What on earth can make someone that way?  I read once that once physical intimacy is achieved and normal, it's like it can be turned around as a doorway for physical abuse.  It certainly seems that way.

He was loving with me right till the end.  It made it harder to leave, but I couldn't live in fear any longer, no matter how much gratification I got during the times when he was tender.  I didn't feel safe anymore.

Grim

[Believe]

It took me a long time and a lot of soul searching to sort this out for myself. Here's my current take on it:

I do not believe that my ex BPD/NPD boyfriend was capable of true intimacy. The amazing sex that we had, especially in the beginning of the relationship, was a substitute for real intimacy. I confused his incredible ability to be physically affectionate and verbally affectionate for emotional intimacy.

Genuine intimacy comes from having the capacity to have empathy for your partner: both feeling that empathy and acting on that empathy. Most people w/BPD or NPD do not have the ability to feel empathy for another person, and if they can feel it sporadically, they certainly do not act on it in any consistent fashion that would indicate they have ability to form a truly intimate bond with another person.

And, yes, my ex was physically and verbally very affectionate and loving right to the end. But all of that was peppered amongst rage, splitting, lying, cheating, inconsistencies between his words and actions, and complete absence of empathy for me.

[Herestoyourhealth]

When I was young, my uBPDmom occassionally grabbed my sister or me, tackled us, pinned us down and planted sloppy wet kisses all over our faces.  This was fun for her.  For us, it was gross and suffocating.  My sister once said that she wasn't sharing playfullness and affection.  It was more like she was trying to suck the love and affection out of us (without our consent) or take love from us instead of giving.

Most of the time, my exBPDbf was quite sensual with good night kisses, where I felt like we were sharing the moment.  He could be a great kisser and very affectionate.  Sometimes though, I felt his switch go off, and I felt like he was just trying to suck my energy and the affection from me with no concern for my enjoyment.  It was not sharing.  I could feel his neediness, selfishness and desperation.  I felt claustrophobic and trapped.  I don't remember ever dating anyone before him who made me feel that same way as uBPDmom made me feel as a child.  Bad memories.   

Hmmmm.  Well I'm lucky I saw enough red flags over time.  We never did go "all the way".

[grimalkin]

I never felt like my exBP was suffocating me.  I did feel his rage come through sometimes when we had sex, but he used it to make us both feel connected and it didn't bother me.  He was still very giving and never did anything I didn't want and enjoy.

He did have true empathy most of the time, but that would disappear once he felt hurt or frightened and got upset.  I noticed this really early on.  Towards the end, though, he lost a lot of that empathy as he became disenchanted with me.  His kisses, which had once been so passionate, became contrived, like he didn't care if he was kissing me or not, and was doing it out of obligation.  I could feel his absentmindedness and distance.  He was really less attracted to me and this was evident in our lovemaking and even other intimate moments.  It was like he would rather be doing something else.

Sporadic moments where he lost empathy became more and more frequent, until what had been what I still believe was true love for both of us became a tense and distant relationship.  He got scared and I became the enemy.  It's hard to have empathy with the enemy.

[OverBoard]

Ditto. In the begining... I felt like I was home. My now exBPDNPDbpgf (July 2010)

though, could not be intimate unless intoxicated and medicated... I noticed this early on and it only progressed. In two years she could have be intimate or have sex without being overtly drunk or amped out on Serquel 600mg with a couple of drinks. That was a turn off right there. In the later part of the two years live in, the last 8 months: nothing. No matter what I did or tried, suggested nothing, not even drunk, then only verbal abuse, lies, rages, anger... still cringe as I write this. Yet my understanding is she found someone the night of the day I moved her out and the honeymoon is two months into it... .ohhhhhhhhhhhh I can't wait til she crashes and burns. She will, too. There is a pattern with her.

[gutzgutz]

grimalkin, your story sounds like mine -

his absentmindedness at the end, his kisses out of duty, he kissed me good bye every morning, also when he already had seen somebody else ----- everything you have written in your two posts could have been written by me.

gg

[gutzgutz]

Though on second thought:

believe: And, yes, my ex was physically and verbally very affectionate and loving right to the end. But all of that was peppered amongst rage, splitting, lying, cheating, inconsistencies between his words and actions, and complete absence of empathy for me.

Empathy came and went - it depended on his moods. At the end I was not only his enemy, but in his own words: I WAS IN HIS WAY.

[ex_bf_worried]

I swore I was going crazy. I thought this just happened to me. After all the negative stuff. Sex became very boring for me. It was never like how it was in the beginning. It became a chore. I guess this was when the connection was lost. I realise too when she tried to get her way, she used sex to get it.

[WalrusGumboot]

Intimacy, or the lack thereof, has been the central theme if my failed 23 year marriage to uBPDw. As we make plans to divorce, she has been attempting to pin the lack of intimacy to reason that I have been "out of love" with her for the last 22 years, while claiming she is still "in love" with me the same as she was when we first met. Of course her claim is ludicrous because nobody can keep that level of intense emotional involvement to another person for several years, let alone 23 years.

My uBPDw is a "Marilyn" (after Marilyn Monroe, who had BPD), according to my T. Her identity comes through her ability to attract men sexually, and her view of intimacy is sexual in nature. So when sex starts becoming less frequent, due to a number of conditions, it is a rejection to her. Just as she emotionally pushed away her abandoning father when she was 6 and then her abandoning mother later on in her childhood and placed walls around her, she begins placing walls around her and pushes me away, leaving me confused and frustrated. This ultimately led to an explosive rage, then me trying to make things right and to keep up the level of intimacy she expected. It has always been unsustainable and eventually ended up in the same situation.

Rinse... repeat... for the next 22 years.

[JoannaK]

Sex  tends to be a "tool" used by many with BPD... It's not necessarily a conscious tool, as they do feel something at the beginning, but they also know that being "good" sexually is a key to getting someone to attach to them.  Initially they feel that you are "perfect" and that comes out in their love making.

But nobody is perfect; they start to see the cracks and they start to devalue the new partner. 

Most here say the same:  Sex and apparent intimacy was great at the begininng, became less and less frequent... and those who were with their partners any length of time (years) usually had no or very infrequent sex or intimate moments.

[gutzgutz]

Sex  tends to be a "tool" used by many with BPD... It's not necessarily a conscious tool, as they do feel something at the beginning, but they also know that being "good" sexually is a key to getting someone to attach to them.  Initially they feel that you are "perfect" and that comes out in their love making.

But nobody is perfect; they start to see the cracks and they start to devalue the new partner. 

Most here say the same:  Sex and apparent intimacy was great at the begininng, became less and less frequent... and those who were with their partners any length of time (years) usually had no or very infrequent sex or intimate moments.

In my case we did have good and in my opinion enough sex, but for him it was never enough or good enough. That might fit into the devaluation of the partner.

It was confusing for me and it made me not want to be intimate, have sex too often. Actually quite destructive of him, and in a way he hindered himself too.

When he saw new woman, he had to tell me that she called him HER SEX GOD. That would fit into what your are describing as having to be 'good' sexually. He had told me that he enjoyed sex most with a woman who had not had it for years as her husband did not satisfy her. Alarm bells should have rang then, but did not. For him the act has to be perfect and therefor he has to be a perfect performer or ... .? This is not love-making. I must say that I felt we made love. I do not think that I deluded myself. It was great for me. For him - so it seems - women are exchangeable - a warm body who desires him and tells him that he is a god.

[grimalkin]

Yeah, mine told me that too-- that other women were astounded by his sexual ability.  Like I needed to know that.  He WAS very talented, which made it so much more difficult when the sex went downhill.  I was still expecting him to perform as he did in the beginning.  We were only together for 14 months, so I was naturally distressed when he started getting "lazy" about 6 months in.  I was very responsive to him, same as I'd ever been, but it was clear now that he was comfortable with me, he didn't feel the same need to keep it up, or do it as frequently.  He told me that he was less interested in sex, and finally that he was losing his sex drive (!)  I said after only 8 months?  He seemed truly distressed as well, but tried to write it off as an age thing-- that men his age just lose their sex drive and that was normal.  He became annoyed and enbarrassed that I was so hurt by the change.

Grim

[2010]

Two things puzzle me: is it normal for a BP to lose interest in sex so quickly?  Also, were your exBPs tender and gentle one moment, then abusive (verbally or physically) a short time later?  What on earth can make someone that way?

A Narcissist acts this way. A Borderline uses sex as an important tool for valuation. They usually refer to it throughout the relationship to gain approval when insecure feelings arise. Since it worked in the past, it's bound to work again.

If you're with a Narcissist instead- then things are different. Narcissists use sex to get your attention, but it's only to place you on the shelf as an object. Both the Borderline and Narcissistic disorders place people as mirrored objects on pedestals, but that's only to serve their hypercritical functions. A narcissist mirrors and uses sex for mastery but the fusion of two personalities with someone he considers beneath him (and all people are beneath him) depletes his sense of grandiosity and diminishes his mastery.  He then must frustrate this object by gaining power over when and where he will use the sex tool as valuation- but it's not for himself, it's for his partner.

A Borderline mirrors and uses sex for safety (clinging) but the fusion of two personalities depletes his sense of grandiosity and diminishes his mastery over others until it becomes servitude.  The servitude then becomes slave master and slave dynamic. He then must frustrate this object by gaining power over when and where he will use it but generally creates a submissive style as opposed to the dominant style of the Narcissist.  The noted British sexologist Havelock Ellis wrote: "This irony is highly evident in the observation by many, that not only are popularly practiced sadomasochistic activities usually performed at the express request of the masochist, but that it is often the designated masochist who may direct such activities, through subtle emotional cues perceived or mutually understood and consensually recognized by the designated sadist."  (Surely he was speaking of a Borderline.)

James Masterson writes: “For the narcissist, it is very common to have sexual difficulties because sexual gratification is not high on the narcissist’s hidden list of priorities.  Narcissistic gratification comes first, and the threat of two bodies and two sets of emotions coming so close to fusion requires the narcissist to activate their defenses to protect their narcissistic vulnerability.”

To live with a narcissist is an arduous and eroding task. Narcissists are sadistic in an absent-minded and indifferent manner. Their daily routine is a rigmarole of complaints, hurts, eruptions and moodiness. The narcissist rails against slights true and imagined. He alienates people. He humiliates them because this is his only weapon against the humiliation wrought by their indifference.

Gradually, wherever he is, the narcissist’s social circle dwindles and then vanishes. Every narcissist is also a schizoid, to some extent. A schizoid is not a misanthrope. He does not necessarily hate people - he simply does not need them. He regards social interactions as a nuisance to be minimized. The narcissist is a lonely wolf.

The narcissist is torn between his need to obtain narcissistic supply (from human beings) - and his fervent wish to be left alone. This wish is peppered with contempt and feelings of superiority. Most narcissists are misogynists. Their sexual and emotional lives are perturbed and chaotic. They are unable to love in any true sense of the word - nor are they capable of developing any measure of intimacy. Lacking empathy, they are unable to offer to the partner emotional sustenance."  

www.trixieracerblog.blogspot.com/2009/12/artlicle-on-narcissists.html

[grimalkin]

A Borderline mirrors and uses sex for safety (clinging) but the fusion of two personalities depletes his sense of grandiosity and diminishes his mastery over others until it becomes servitude.  The servitude then becomes slave master and slave dynamic. He then must frustrate this object by gaining power over when and where he will use it but generally creates a submissive style as opposed to the dominant style of the Narcissist.  The noted British sexologist Havelock Ellis wrote: "This irony is highly evident in the observation by many, that not only are popularly practiced sadomasochistic activities usually performed at the express request of the masochist, but that it is often the designated masochist who may direct such activities, through subtle emotional cues perceived or mutually understood and consensually recognized by the designated sadist."  (Surely he was speaking of a Borderline.)

I didn't have a masochistic BP partner.  Or sadistic, for that matter, although there were definite "power exchanges."  This was blatant from early on-- there was a need for SOMEONE to be somewhat submissive, but it was never real pain or humiliation to be the intent.  It was very loving and safe for both involved.

Grim

[ArtistGuy70]

I have narcissistic traits. My exBPDgf does as well. I was the ":)ominant" and she was the "submissive" sexually. Now I see she truly had the control. What I saw as sex games for fun, she saw as a way to be punished and get pain from the stand in Daddy which was me to work through issues of insecurity, sadness, low self worth. Eventually she lost interest (after 4 and a half years), saw me as a controlling and jealous person. I became the persecutor in her mind. The true sadist I'm sure. Even though it was for fun and games, I believe she twisted it somehow when she crashed off of her depression meds. I'll never know the reason why but I became the villain. I suppose I had to be since she needs to be in the victim role.

[ArtistGuy70]

A Borderline mirrors and uses sex for safety (clinging) but the fusion of two personalities depletes his sense of grandiosity and diminishes his mastery over others until it becomes servitude.  The servitude then becomes slave master and slave dynamic. He then must frustrate this object by gaining power over when and where he will use it but generally creates a submissive style as opposed to the dominant style of the Narcissist.  The noted British sexologist Havelock Ellis wrote: "This irony is highly evident in the observation by many, that not only are popularly practiced sadomasochistic activities usually performed at the express request of the masochist, but that it is often the designated masochist who may direct such activities, through subtle emotional cues perceived or mutually understood and consensually recognized by the designated sadist."  (Surely he was speaking of a Borderline.)

I didn't have a masochistic BP partner.  Or sadistic, for that matter, although there were definite "power exchanges."  This was blatant from early on-- there was a need for SOMEONE to be somewhat submissive, but it was never real pain or humiliation to be the intent.  It was very loving and safe for both involved.

Grim

Not for us. She wanted pain. She wanted humiliation. Degradation in bed. She craved it. I was more than happy to oblige considering she propped me up so much. How bad I wanted to keep her. Ugh.

[grimalkin]

I have narcissistic traits. My exBPDgf does as well. I was the ":)ominant" and she was the "submissive" sexually. Now I see she truly had the control. What I saw as sex games for fun, she saw as a way to be punished and get pain from the stand in Daddy which was me to work through issues of insecurity, sadness, low self worth.

Yes!

The games were all a part of some scheme for validation on the part of my exBP.  I knew that at the time and rolled with it, because I loved him and wanted to be everything he needed, although of course I didn't ever realize I'd end up here, him having lost interest to a great extent, if not totally.  I enjoyed them and found validation through them as well, actually, but only BECAUSE I was validating HIM, which he seemed to need so badly.

Grim

[ArtistGuy70]

I have narcissistic traits. My exBPDgf does as well. I was the ":)ominant" and she was the "submissive" sexually. Now I see she truly had the control. What I saw as sex games for fun, she saw as a way to be punished and get pain from the stand in Daddy which was me to work through issues of insecurity, sadness, low self worth.

Yes!

The games were all a part of some scheme for validation on the part of my exBP.  I knew that at the time and rolled with it, because I loved him and wanted to be everything he needed, although of course I didn't ever realize I'd end up here, him having lost interest to a great extent, if not totally.  I enjoyed them and found validation through them as well, actually, but only BECAUSE I was validating HIM, which he seemed to need so badly.

Grim

I can't say it was all her. I have been involved in bdsm relationships before. I did it more to please her since she was so curious about it, interested in it, told me how wonderful of a dominant man I was, etc. I wanted to be loved and needed by her so bad. But I take my share of responsibility in this. I did not think she would turn on me and I would become that person to her... .we only did it in the bedroom but it was just adding to her feelings of low self worth. I don't know.

[grimalkin]

I have narcissistic traits. My exBPDgf does as well. I was the ":)ominant" and she was the "submissive" sexually. Now I see she truly had the control. What I saw as sex games for fun, she saw as a way to be punished and get pain from the stand in Daddy which was me to work through issues of insecurity, sadness, low self worth.

Yes!

The games were all a part of some scheme for validation on the part of my exBP.  I knew that at the time and rolled with it, because I loved him and wanted to be everything he needed, although of course I didn't ever realize I'd end up here, him having lost interest to a great extent, if not totally.  I enjoyed them and found validation through them as well, actually, but only BECAUSE I was validating HIM, which he seemed to need so badly.

Grim

I can't say it was all her. I have been involved in bdsm relationships before. I did it more to please her since she was so curious about it, interested in it, told me how wonderful of a dominant man I was, etc. I wanted to be loved and needed by her so bad. But I take my share of responsibility in this. I did not think she would turn on me and I would become that person to her... .we only did it in the bedroom but it was just adding to her feelings of low self worth. I don't know.

It wasn't all him, either.  Certainly not, or I wouldn't have been interested or gotten anything out of it. 

Grim

[2010]

Just want to interject here that according to Masterson, we all have bits and pieces of behaviors that can be classified as Borderline or Narcissistic. (Btw, he didn't believe in "nons".)  These behavioral bits and pieces are surface observations that when categorized, help determine the health care in your therapist's office. Forget all about nons vs. non-nons for now and concentrate instead, on the division of fantasy versus reality.  Fantasy is what got you here- that, and your idealized self. (and there's a reason for this.)  

Fantasy is what we all use to perfect our *idealized self* and protect our real selves from harm.  The terms come from Karen Horney.  Nearly 80 years ago, she was instrumental in uncovering defensive strategies in childhood.  Horney began to use the term, real self to indicate "a possible self,"  that is, a self that we can realistically learn to express outwardly in life by "being ourselves." Unfortunately, we come across some very hard people who have other ideas along the way- so we modify our real selves into idealized versions in a defensive measure. This, Karen Horney called "the idealized self."

The idealized self is a glorified version of how we think we should be. Our real self is covered up with layers of this idealized "should be" crud because the idealized version works with an almost impenetrable fortress of defense mechanisms called the "tyrannical shoulds."  I should be able to know, understand and foresee everything. I should be able to solve every problem of my own or of others in no time. I should be able to overcome every difficulty in life and help others overcome theirs. I should be able to do things in one hour that normally take others two to three... .and when a romantic partner comes into my life and mirrors my idealization of myself- I feel I have found my soulmate.  I then project my idealized self onto them as keepers of the flame.  Everything is great and nothing causes anxiety.  I am in love.  The idealized self now becomes more real than the "real self." In fact, Karen Horney went further into this break with reality by claiming that the real me, the one I keep hidden, is now despised by myself. She called it the "despised real self."

I don't really know that I despise my real self because my thoughts are hypnotized with the idealization of my new partner who mirrors my idealized self. But the new relationship allows me a sense of freedom and I seek to be understood for the "real me." I let down my guard and begin to share my secrets. I begin to show bits and pieces of my real self to my partner. And in synchronicity, my partner sees the "actual" person that I am- maybe not as idealized as I would think.  This causes me anxiety and I work hard to recollect the idealization. Soon, the problems arise that my idealized self cannot control or fix. This idealized self that I created to offset my anxiety is now no longer working.

"In contrast to authentic ideals, the idealized image has a static quality. It is not a goal toward attainment, but a fixed idea that is worshiped." ~ Karen Horney.  In other words, the idealized image can become arrogant, which may be labeled narcissism.  The idealized self is now seen as a state of being- one that is nearly impossible to attain.

I feel a sense of hostility. I am now in pain. My idealized self is based on wishful thinking style, and I am compelled to reach this unrealistic goal of problem solving with behaviors that Horney called, my "search for glory."  One that returns me to the all wonderful, idealized self that works with wishful thinking but never accomplishes my idealized version of love.

And the wishful thinking overrides the reality that my partner and I are bound together by some form of idealized need, the basis of which is pain and suffering that is really our despised real selves. And I feel we are better together against this pain than alone because we have mirrored each other in a fantasized, idealized World of “shoulds.”   We should be able to fix this. We should be never split up our friendship. I should help him/her. He/She should get well. *We* should be happy.  This shouldn't be a problem.

Unfortunately the idealized self and it's tyrannical shoulds isn’t reality- it's fantasy. Your real self is showing. That's the self that’s anxious and uncomfortable and perhaps feeling a bit hostile that your idealized self has been and is being challenged.  The idealized self is and has always been defensive.  It is what you created in order to survive a hostile World in childhood.  You did this in order to gain needed love and approval.  It's being defensive again.

Meanwhile, your real self is still there, waiting, perhaps hiding with it's core issues- and it harbors all the potential for personal growth and well being outside of the creation of the idealized self- but it has atrophied and barely given respect.  Too much of your attention has gone to your idealized version of yourself- (the one that's impossible to attain.) Your real self harbors your own feelings, thoughts, wishes, dreams, abilities and will power- but it was shoved aside, damaged by parental indifference in your childhood.

Horney's theories detail many rationalizations, conflicts and blind spots in therapy before we are able to let go of this idealized version of ourselves. One of the earliest blockages is the externalization of the idealized self onto others. "When a person feels that his life for good or ill is determined by others, it is only logical that he should be preoccupied with changing them, reforming them, punishing them, protecting himself from their interference, or impressing them. Another inevitable product of externalization is a gnawing sense of emptiness and shallowness if he does not." Horney, 1945, p.117.

Being mirrored by a romantic partner forces your insistence on the idealized version of yourself.  An idealized version that doesn't work because it never could. It just causes a great pain. Losing this idealized version causes an identity crisis of such proportions that you feel like you are crumbling apart and dying.  Your idealized self was created to defend against separation anxiety and abandonment depression from childhood and here it goes -not working anymore. Most people come into therapy during this stage.  That's why Horney added a third self-image, which is the only one we cannot really see but others see in us. She called it our "actual self." (That's the one you show outwardly and the one that therapists are looking at when you go to therapy during an identity crisis.)  It's up to the therapist to help you crack through the wall of the idealized version in your head and get at the real you that's lying dormant and to do so creates hostility and anxiety.

~It's very difficult to let go of the idealized self and the mirroring of the idealized self in a Borderline relationship. It doesn't mean that we are Narcissists, it just means that you and I created an idealized version of ourselves that worked fine up until we met our partner and that idealized self is what is covering up the real self- and the real self needs to be comforted and restored to it's real glory.  First it has to suffer the pain of going it alone.

www.plaza.ufl.edu/bjparis/horney/fadiman/04_major3.html

[ArtistGuy70]

Just want to interject here that according to Masterson, we all have bits and pieces of behaviors that can be classified as Borderline or Narcissistic. (Btw, he didn't believe in "nons".)  These behavioral bits and pieces are surface observations that when categorized, help determine the health care in your therapist's office. Forget all about nons vs. non-nons for now and concentrate instead, on the division of fantasy versus reality.  Fantasy is what got you here- that, and your idealized self. (and there's a reason for this.)  

Fantasy is what we all use to perfect our *idealized self* and protect our real selves from harm.  The terms come from Karen Horney.  Nearly 80 years ago, she was instrumental in uncovering defensive strategies in childhood.  Horney began to use the term, real self to indicate "a possible self,"  that is, a self that we can realistically learn to express outwardly in life by "being ourselves." Unfortunately, we come across some very hard people who have other ideas along the way- so we modify our real selves into idealized versions in a defensive measure. This, Karen Horney called "the idealized self."

The idealized self is a glorified version of how we think we should be. Our real self is covered up with layers of this idealized "should be" crud because the idealized version works with an almost impenetrable fortress of defense mechanisms called the "tyrannical shoulds."  I should be able to know, understand and foresee everything. I should be able to solve every problem of my own or of others in no time. I should be able to overcome every difficulty in life and help others overcome theirs. I should be able to do things in one hour that normally take others two to three... .and when a romantic partner comes into my life and mirrors my idealization of myself- I feel I have found my soulmate.  I then project my idealized self onto them as keepers of the flame.  Everything is great and nothing causes anxiety.  I am in love.  The idealized self now becomes more real than the "real self." In fact, Karen Horney went further into this break with reality by claiming that the real me, the one I keep hidden, is now despised by myself. She called it the "despised real self."

I don't really know that I despise my real self because my thoughts are hypnotized with the idealization of my new partner who mirrors my idealized self. But the new relationship allows me a sense of freedom and I seek to be understood for the "real me." I let down my guard and begin to share my secrets. I begin to show bits and pieces of my real self to my partner. And in synchronicity, my partner sees the "actual" person that I am- maybe not as idealized as I would think.  This causes me anxiety and I work hard to recollect the idealization. Soon, the problems arise that my idealized self cannot control or fix. This idealized self that I created to offset my anxiety is now no longer working.

"In contrast to authentic ideals, the idealized image has a static quality. It is not a goal toward attainment, but a fixed idea that is worshiped." ~ Karen Horney.  In other words, the idealized image can become arrogant, which may be labeled narcissism.  The idealized self is now seen as a state of being- one that is nearly impossible to attain.

I feel a sense of hostility. I am now in pain. My idealized self is based on wishful thinking style, and I am compelled to reach this unrealistic goal of problem solving with behaviors that Horney called, my "search for glory."  One that returns me to the all wonderful, idealized self that works with wishful thinking but never accomplishes my idealized version of love.

And the wishful thinking overrides the reality that my partner and I are bound together by some form of idealized need, the basis of which is pain and suffering that is really our despised real selves. And I feel we are better together against this pain than alone because we have mirrored each other in a fantasized, idealized World of “shoulds.”   We should be able to fix this. We should be never split up our friendship. I should help him/her. He/She should get well. *We* should be happy.  This shouldn't be a problem.

Unfortunately the idealized self and it's tyrannical shoulds isn’t reality- it's fantasy. Your real self is showing. That's the self that’s anxious and uncomfortable and perhaps feeling a bit hostile that your idealized self has been and is being challenged.  The idealized self is and has always been defensive.  It is what you created in order to survive a hostile World in childhood.  You did this in order to gain needed love and approval.  It's being defensive again.

Meanwhile, your real self is still there, waiting, perhaps hiding with it's core issues- and it harbors all the potential for personal growth and well being outside of the creation of the idealized self- but it has atrophied and barely given respect.  Too much of your attention has gone to your idealized version of yourself- (the one that's impossible to attain.) Your real self harbors your own feelings, thoughts, wishes, dreams, abilities and will power- but it was shoved aside, damaged by parental indifference in your childhood.

Horney's theories detail many rationalizations, conflicts and blind spots in therapy before we are able to let go of this idealized version of ourselves. One of the earliest blockages is the externalization of the idealized self onto others. "When a person feels that his life for good or ill is determined by others, it is only logical that he should be preoccupied with changing them, reforming them, punishing them, protecting himself from their interference, or impressing them. Another inevitable product of externalization is a gnawing sense of emptiness and shallowness if he does not." Horney, 1945, p.117.

Being mirrored by a romantic partner forces your insistence on the idealized version of yourself.  An idealized version that doesn't work because it never could. It just causes a great pain. Losing this idealized version causes an identity crisis of such proportions that you feel like you are crumbling apart and dying.  Your idealized self was created to defend against separation anxiety and abandonment depression from childhood and here it goes -not working anymore. Most people come into therapy during this stage.  That's why Horney added a third self-image, which is the only one we cannot really see but others see in us. She called it our "actual self." (That's the one you show outwardly and the one that therapists are looking at when you go to therapy during an identity crisis.)  It's up to the therapist to help you crack through the wall of the idealized version in your head and get at the real you that's lying dormant and to do so creates hostility and anxiety.

~It's very difficult to let go of the idealized self and the mirroring of the idealized self in a Borderline relationship. It doesn't mean that we are Narcissists, it just means that you and I created an idealized version of ourselves that worked fine up until we met our partner and that idealized self is what is covering up the real self- and the real self needs to be comforted and restored to it's real glory.  First it has to suffer the pain of going it alone.

www.plaza.ufl.edu/bjparis/horney/fadiman/04_major3.html

2010,

Wonderful insights as always. My idealized self was in full bloom with my exBPDgf. She mirrored everything I wanted to see. I was strong, heroic, smart, handsome, talented, protective, wise, sexual god, etc. She really fed everything to me and I lapped it up. This idealized self really fell apart when she discarded me after five years. Just shattered. The ego, everything about this self.

Now I am left with me. My real self. And it is hard to put this person back together and make him strong. He is scared, alone and unsure about himself. It's a scary time in my life to be honest.

[gecko2012]

2010

This makes REALLY good sense - I will research Horney some more.

I have been pondering this thought lately as:

*The more I supported/encouraged/celebrated her being "real" with me - the more I was pushed away.

*When she shared pieces of her "real self" with me - I did not turn away in horror as she expected - I embraced it.

*I realized, in my own terms, the difference between her "idealized self" and her "real self" and I attempted to support her to be Authentic "real self"

*Honestly, at the time, I did not understand BPD and I was barrelling toward my being "painted black"

She always made statements like

"I am broken - have always been broken and will always be broken"

"You are so unique and worthy you don't deserve to be with someone who is broken"

"I have never shared my real uxBPDgf with anyone besides you"

"I want you go away and find a girl WORTHY of you"

BUT

then the cycling started.

"please wait for me"

"I can't imagine a life without you"

"I have never been so real happy as I am with you"

etc etc etc

I am glad you wrote on this as my T appt. is tomorrow and this is on my list to speak on.

This all being said - I still love my uxBPDgf but I know I simply CANNOT break NC.

Everyday it gets a bit easier but I still love uxBPDgf... .

[ArtistGuy70]

2010

This makes REALLY good sense - I will research Horney some more.

I have been pondering this thought lately as:

*The more I supported/encouraged/celebrated her being "real" with me - the more I was pushed away.

*When she shared pieces of her "real self" with me - I did not turn away in horror as she expected - I embraced it.

*I realized, in my own terms, the difference between her "idealized self" and her "real self" and I attempted to support her to be Authentic "real self"

*Honestly, at the time, I did not understand BPD and I was barrelling toward my being "painted black"

She always made statements like

"I am broken - have always been broken and will always be broken"

"You are so unique and worthy you don't deserve to be with someone who is broken"

"I have never shared my real uxBPDgf with anyone besides you"

"I want you go away and find a girl WORTHY of you"

BUT

then the cycling started.

"please wait for me"

"I can't imagine a life without you"

"I have never been so real happy as I am with you"

etc etc etc

I am glad you wrote on this as my T appt. is tomorrow and this is on my list to speak on.

This all being said - I still love my uxBPDgf but I know I simply CANNOT break NC.

Everyday it gets a bit easier but I still love uxBPDgf... .

So many similarities.

My ex would say things like

"You deserve better. I can't be the gf you deserve, I can only be who I am."

"You will find someone better, someone worthy of you."

"You don't need another nutjob in your life, neither does your daughter."

They are playing martyr and yes, they do cycle.

[gecko2012]

Artist - I am pretty sure we were involved with same person - - 

Martyr - - We had that discussion MANY times.

I find myself thinking that on some small level she "sent me away" because she knew

*she was broken

*she knew I was not - at least not to her level

*she knew she never get the help she needed and knew she needed.

*she wanted me to be happy - -martyred herself as she had stated before.

BUT what does it matter.

*She is intrisicaly broken

*I MAY be Codependent but I am working on that DAILY

*I will learn to live life not simply survive it.

*She will continue to hide in her drugs and new conquests

My T told me

"BPDers Fu** up EVERYONES lives that interact with them - plain and simple"

I am going to keep up NC

FOR ME!

[Aurylian]

Most here say the same:  Sex and apparent intimacy was great at the begininng, became less and less frequent... and those who were with their partners any length of time (years) usually had no or very infrequent sex or intimate moments.

A Borderline uses sex as an important tool for valuation. They usually refer to it throughout the relationship to gain approval when insecure feelings arise. Since it worked in the past, it's bound to work again.

This pretty much spells my life out.  After the first year or so, the only time she would approach me for sex was when she knew she had the greatest likelihood that I wouldn't be interested (middle of night before a big meeting at work, night before a big race, etc.).  She can't see it.  I can't avoid seeing it.

[gutzgutz]

2010

Really good research, Karen Horney and real and idealised self.

Have read Horney ages ago and because of your text I want to look more into her again. Thanks.

gecko

I have been pondering this thought lately as:

*The more I supported/encouraged/celebrated her being "real" with me - the more I was pushed away.

My uex complained most of the time that he could not be the real person with me. Not true, I had accepted that he was a drama king, I had accepted his mood swings, I had accepted a lot. I did not condone of everything (sounds a bit like I am a mother!). I could not accept that he became so destructive against me. If he had to be destructive I had to save myself.

That's the shame that he cannot see that destruction affects people, like being loving and like listening.

At the end he was full of shame, so he had to move on to get rid of it and start anew without all this shame and sin stuff. Cutting of the past, not amending anything. CUTTING OFF AND HOPING IT WILL BE DIFFERENT WITH THE NEXT PERSON.

[gecko2012]

gutz

Yep - that is what I think too - when the mirror got to dirty and they began to see themselves - they had to cut and run as they had so often before.

In fact, my uxBPDgf told me several times.

"If we ever break up I will go back fake for a time, take more Xan to get through the days and wear my mask through life and eventually I will find a replacement for "pale shadow" of you HOWEVER, he will NOT care about "real uxBPDgf" and will simply use me for my body"

I responded WOW - How long do you think you can live that way before you find the "pale shadow"

Her response was I think I can make it for perhaps two years before I HAVE to find that "pale shadow"

I was simply stunned BUT it fits the profile of BPD.

Of course, it will not be two years.  When her SO quits feeding her to the level she needs she will find that "pale shadow"

I don't think she could handle someone that LOVED her with in her entirity because she HATES herself so much.

[Backtome09]

Two things puzzle me: is it normal for a BP to lose interest in sex so quickly?... .

Also, were your exBPs tender and gentle one moment, then abusive (verbally or physically) a short time later?

What on earth can make someone that way?  I read once that once physical intimacy is achieved and normal, it's like it can be turned around as a doorway for physical abuse.  It certainly seems that way.

I am dating someone out of a BPD relationship as well as having a BPD x myself... .From what I know about the sex. Yes.

YES. Mine was very conflicted. Switched and cycled at a dizzying pace.

BPD

Mine only faked intimacy. I have heard most do. BPD should not be mistaken for passion. The porn-star "look at me" sex and affection was only a weapon like everything else for a BPD. Sex was a carrot on a string used to bait you back into the chaos. Hence my little avatar. My x was totally incapable of making love. He never let himself go. There was no "him" to let go of. They have no sense of self.

[grimalkin]

2010

Really good research, Karen Horney and real and idealised self.

Have read Horney ages ago and because of your text I want to look more into her again. Thanks.

gecko

I have been pondering this thought lately as:

*The more I supported/encouraged/celebrated her being "real" with me - the more I was pushed away.

My uex complained most of the time that he could not be the real person with me. Not true, I had accepted that he was a drama king, I had accepted his mood swings, I had accepted a lot. I did not condone of everything (sounds a bit like I am a mother!). I could not accept that he became so destructive against me. If he had to be destructive I had to save myself.

That's the shame that he cannot see that destruction affects people, like being loving and like listening.

At the end he was full of shame, so he had to move on to get rid of it and start anew without all this shame and sin stuff. Cutting of the past, not amending anything. CUTTING OFF AND HOPING IT WILL BE DIFFERENT WITH THE NEXT PERSON.

I was friends with my exBP for a long time before we became intimate.  I heard about a few of his girlfriends.  It was always the same thing:  they were the best person in the world, then a while later (we didn't speak that often) it was over because he had messed it up somehow (HE said that, never elaborating on how exactly it had happened).  I knew he had problems with relationships, but still got swept off my feet.  

He always hoped the next one would be better.  I don't know how many times he ended things, or they ended it-- I asked him once if the sudden drop off of sex drive happened with anyone else and he claimed he didn't know.  How can you not know that?  Especially since he remembered almost anything and everything people ever said to him.  I eventually took that as a yes.

The change in our sexual connection was one of many things that eventually made me leave-- not because I expected it to stay the same forever, but because it was such an indicator of his growing loss of interest in me.  He started to see sex as a chore, and I could really feel that.

Grim

[gutzgutz]

gecko

I don't think she could handle someone that LOVED her with in her entirity because she HATES herself so much.

I am not sure if he hated himself so much or just did not love himself. Is there a difference? I think so. He does not love himself and he does not love others.

Talking about mirror, I overheard a phone conversation with the new woman in his life, and he told her - quite satisfied - you know I want to be with you - you have got low self-esteem, it is even lower than mine. I thought this was strange. Certainly this is a mirror image.

He also told her that he would do anything to make her happy, I translate this into doing anything so she would not leave him (as she has already seen another boyfriend during summer). TRAGIC!


grim

He always hoped the next one would be better.

This is worrying, isn't it. It means that he is always on the look-out for another, a better, a newer person/toy/salvation.

I remember that during the last years I had been looking at women and thinking will she be the new girlfriend? Quite mad, isn't it.

While he was in a relationship with me (and his other girlfriends before me) he must have been on the lookout for somebody else all the time. How stressful for all parties involved.