BOUNDARIES: Case studies

[Our abuse recovery guide]

Gettingthere, you're not dominating, you're a case study!  Thank you for that.

BPDfamfan, let me add my   as well!

When dealing with boundary busters, it can sometimes feel that everything you say is going to be "busted" and its exhausting constantly stipulatng boundaries and consequences. How have other poeple handeled this?

BPDfamfan provides a good example of how to handle this. She determined that seeing her parents together led to trouble. BPDfamfan, I might attempt to restate your values a bit (maybe incorrectly... .please do correct/comment) to positive versions:

I missed having a unique, individual relationship with each one.

I resented the constant triangulation & drama that surrounded us every time we got together.

Having a unique, individual relationship with each of my parents is important to me.

Having interactions that are free of drama and triangulation is important to me.

Again, boundaries = your value system in action.

BPDfamfan put those values into action by creating circumstances in which her values could be expressed. Her parents might have refused to cooperate, in which case she would have to weigh again her values, particularly how important a relationship was with them if her basic needs for the relationship could not be met.

Getting back to Gettingthere's question, which is one of the key questions in this topic: When dealing with boundary busters, it can sometimes feel that everything you say is going to be "busted" and its exhausting constantly stipulatng boundaries and consequences--how do you handle? Let's try an exercise.

Which of the following are under your control*?

*Assume for the sake of this exercise no physical coercion, which we've seen in some of these examples and certainly happens. Physical abuse calls for intervention from authorities and rapid action to protect yourself.

1. Stopping someone else's behavior.

2. Leaving a situation.

3. Stating your needs calmly.

4. Determining under what circumstances you will see someone (barring accidental run ins).

5. Getting someone to respect you.

6. Getting someone to stop "X" (whatever X might be).

7. Clarifying your values.

8. Accepting the consequences of implementing a boundary, including another person's anger or decision to end the relationship.

9. Getting someone to love you in the way you deserved to be loved.

10. Finding ways to get your needs met.

11. Changing someone else's mind.

12. Hanging up the phone, stopping texting, etc.

13. Ending the intimate part of a relationship in which you share your inner self.

14. Inviting someone into your home.

15. Accepting a gift.

16. Getting someone to stop trying to enter your home or give you a gift.

17. Getting someone to honor your privacy as you see it.

18. Making your private thoughts and things inaccessible to someone you don't trust.

[blackandwhite]

Gettingthere, you're not dominating, you're a case study!  Thank you for that.

BPDfamfan, let me add my   as well!

When dealing with boundary busters, it can sometimes feel that everything you say is going to be "busted" and its exhausting constantly stipulatng boundaries and consequences. How have other poeple handeled this?

BPDfamfan provides a good example of how to handle this. She determined that seeing her parents together led to trouble. BPDfamfan, I might attempt to restate your values a bit (maybe incorrectly... .please do correct/comment) to positive versions:

I missed having a unique, individual relationship with each one.

I resented the constant triangulation & drama that surrounded us every time we got together.

Having a unique, individual relationship with each of my parents is important to me.

Having interactions that are free of drama and triangulation is important to me.

Again, boundaries = your value system in action.

BPDfamfan put those values into action by creating circumstances in which her values could be expressed. Her parents might have refused to cooperate, in which case she would have to weigh again her values, particularly how important a relationship was with them if her basic needs for the relationship could not be met.

Getting back to Gettingthere's question, which is one of the key questions in this topic: When dealing with boundary busters, it can sometimes feel that everything you say is going to be "busted" and its exhausting constantly stipulatng boundaries and consequences--how do you handle? Let's try an exercise.

Which of the following are under your control*?

*Assume for the sake of this exercise no physical coercion, which we've seen in some of these examples and certainly happens. Physical abuse calls for intervention from authorities and rapid action to protect yourself.

1. Stopping someone else's behavior.

2. Leaving a situation.

3. Stating your needs calmly.

4. Determining under what circumstances you will see someone (barring accidental run ins).

5. Getting someone to respect you.

6. Getting someone to stop "X" (whatever X might be).

7. Clarifying your values.

8. Accepting the consequences of implementing a boundary, including another person's anger or decision to end the relationship.

9. Getting someone to love you in the way you deserved to be loved.

10. Finding ways to get your needs met.

11. Changing someone else's mind.

12. Hanging up the phone, stopping texting, etc.

13. Ending the intimate part of a relationship in which you share your inner self.

14. Inviting someone into your home.

15. Accepting a gift.

16. Getting someone to stop trying to enter your home or give you a gift.

17. Getting someone to honor your privacy as you see it.

18. Making your private thoughts and things inaccessible to someone you don't trust.

[bpdfamfan]

Thanks for the  s

I just started formally working on boundaries after joining this site, and the example with my parents is the first success I can think of.  Of course our relationships aren't perfect, but they are easier to deal with one-on-one.

I still have SO MUCH learning and work to do when it comes to boundaries!

B&W you restated my values perfectly:

Having a unique, individual relationship with each of my parents is important to me.

Having interactions that are free of drama and triangulation is important to me.

Thanks to everyone participating in this workshop 

[bpdfamfan]

I'll try the exercise

=under my control

Getting back to Gettingthere's question, which is one of the key questions in this topic: When dealing with boundary busters, it can sometimes feel that everything you say is going to be "busted" and its exhausting constantly stipulatng boundaries and consequences--how do you handle? Let's try an exercise.

Which of the following are under your control*?

*Assume for the sake of this exercise no physical coercion, which we've seen in some of these examples and certainly happens. Physical abuse calls for intervention from authorities and rapid action to protect yourself.

1. Stopping someone else's behavior.

2. Leaving a situation.

3. Stating your needs calmly.

4. Determining under what circumstances you will see someone (barring accidental run ins).

5. Getting someone to respect you.

6. Getting someone to stop "X" (whatever X might be).

7. Clarifying your values.

8. Accepting the consequences of implementing a boundary, including another person's anger or decision to end the relationship.

9. Getting someone to love you in the way you deserved to be loved.

10. Finding ways to get your needs met.

11. Changing someone else's mind.

12. Hanging up the phone, stopping texting, etc.

13. Ending the intimate part of a relationship in which you share your inner self.

14. Inviting someone into your home.

15. Accepting a gift.

16. Getting someone to stop trying to enter your home or give you a gift.

17. Getting someone to honor your privacy as you see it.

18. Making your private thoughts and things inaccessible to someone you don't trust.

[LVS]

I am aware that my example is dominating this workshop and i apologise profusely to the other participants  

All of us had in our lives similar stories the hero and scenario could be little bit different. . Studying yours is going to give insight to all of us and it is going to be more helpful when we hear more suggestions even from people who are reading and didn't post yet... .

As i was reading through your suggestions, it struck me how closely this is entwined with being assertive - something until recently i have never been with my mother, its very much a capitol F in FOG for me.

We all who had poor boundaries in the past were living the

FOG. Increasing our self worth and self esteem increases as well our self confidence and gives us more power to fight the FOG even more than people with healthy boundaries because we were hurt a lot in the past and we are the best who know what it feels like... .

The not taking photos is a boundary for me, so i wouldnt suggest once a year. Also i know that with this particular boundary buster, she would take it as a green light to ignore the boundary anyway.

LVF i think what you have written is "adult" and great for healthy people. My only concern is that if i were to approach it like this with my mother then she would percieve it as nothing but confrontation and critisim. I dont know if thats just her or BPD... .saying her actions were selfish (i'm running to take cover at the thought of it!... .)

... .When dealing with boundary busters, it can sometimes feel that everything you say is going to be "busted" and its exhausting constantly stipulatng boundaries and consequences... .

In fact it's my D18 who inspired me for this suggestion

(she has healthy boundaries)she is in love with a guy but my uBPDH doesn't want him for her and each time they have conversation he tries to show her that she needs to leave that guy.

In one conversation he said you are going to lose all the family support and love for keeping this guy you need to chose between me or him

She said "I love the whole family and i love my dad

they should love me unconditionally for who i am if you are going to delete me from your life for this reason then it is your choice not mine i am going to keep loving all of you no matter what your choices in life are going to be, it is true your decision is going to hurt me but this is your choice and i respect it ".

She impressed me in my whole life i wasn't able to think in this assertive and firm way wow

And it worked but as you said Gettingthere with BPDers or boundaries busters we need to stay on our guard. It's trues this is exhausting but also saying these words is, as B&W described it, the lock but we always need to stay on our guard and not let go things to keep our front and back door locked

In my H mind he lost a battle but didn't lose the war and for sure he is going to find another way and change tactic and try again... .

We need always to remember that BPDers also have weakness points like the fear of abandonment so they will always fight to bust our boundaries because from their experience with us they know they can because we use always to keep our back gate open but when they feel they are going to lose us they will step back... .(they need to not feel we have any fear)

[Mollyd]

This is a great conversation - and chalk full of many useful tools.  What I might add is a starting point.  Well, perhaps it was my starting point.  For some reason, until I actually embraced this starting point, I ended up wheel spinning ... .thinking I was making progress, but actually it was more like one step forward, two back. 

The starting point for me was inspired by reading.  I was quite knowledgable about codependency, and one day was re-reading some writings on the topic.  The words I read, initially, bugged me.  I read something like, " ... .being codependent is being controlling of others ... ."  Now this irked me, as I really didn't see it that way, but I kept reading.

The author (who was Beattie, I think) went on to say, (paraphrased) people have the right to be as horrible and mistaken as they are.  The "art" of recovery from codependency is learning to get out of the way.

For some reason, it finally clicked to me.  I had been banging my head against this wall of trying to make the relationship into what I wanted it to be for years.  Thus, I violated the boundaries of my partner (by trying to get him to be the "best version" of him I wanted/needed ... .to no avail, btw), failed to examine my values and ultimately failed to declare any meaningful boundaries for myself.

So, it was this starting point - recognizing that the "off" behavior of others was not my cue to start acting and trying to change things, but actually to GET OUT OF THE WAY.  That realization, and the practice of getting out of the way, gave me time to think, time to formulate the "me" of things. 

Hopefully that makes sense, and is somewhat relevant to the conversation.

Best,

mollyd

[Gettingthere]

She said "I love the whole family and i love my dad

they should love me unconditionally for who i am if you are going to delete me from your life for this reason then it is your choice not mine i am going to keep loving all of you no matter what your choices in life are going to be, it is true your decision is going to hurt me but this is your choice and i respect it ".

She impressed me in my whole life i wasn't able to think in this assertive and firm way wow

That is really impressive LVF, and well done you raising her with clear boundaries and assertiveness! 

Getting back to the control exercise, the ones i think that we have control over ( ) are

1. Stopping someone else's behavior.

2. Leaving a situation.

  3. Stating your needs calmly.

4. Determining under what circumstances you will see someone (barring accidental run ins).

5. Getting someone to respect you.

6. Getting someone to stop "X" (whatever X might be).

7. Clarifying your values.

8. Accepting the consequences of implementing a boundary, including another person's anger or decision to end the relationship.

9. Getting someone to love you in the way you deserved to be loved.

10. Finding ways to get your needs met.

11. Changing someone else's mind.

12. Hanging up the phone, stopping texting, etc.

13. Ending the intimate part of a relationship in which you share your inner self.

14. Inviting someone into your home.

15. Accepting a gift.

16. Getting someone to stop trying to enter your home or give you a gift.

17. Getting someone to honor your privacy as you see it.

18. Making your private thoughts and things inaccessible to someone you don't trust.



I struggle with 6). I know that you cant stop someone doing 'X' but the wishful thinking bit can be very strong for me. eg DH dont do that cos it will result in x/y/z... .bit i am working on this as i think this stops me doing rescuer bit and stepping onto the drama triangle

And 8... .when i know the consequences are going to be someones anger... .

[LVS]

Which of the following are under my control?  { } for what is under my control and  {  } for what is 50% under control and { ? } unclear for me

 1. Stopping someone else's behavior.

2. Leaving a situation.

3. Stating your needs calmly.

 4. Determining under what circumstances you will see someone (barring accidental run ins).

5. Getting someone to respect you.

 6. Getting someone to stop "X" (whatever X might be).

7. Clarifying your values.

  8. Accepting the consequences of implementing a boundary, including another person's anger or decision to end the relationship.

 9. Getting someone to love you in the way you deserved to be loved.

10. Finding ways to get your needs met.

11. Changing someone else's mind.

  12. Hanging up the phone, stopping texting, etc.

? 13. Ending the intimate part of a relationship in which you share your inner self.

14. Inviting someone into your home.

15. Accepting a gift.

16. Getting someone to stop trying to enter your home or give you a gift.

17. Getting someone to honor your privacy as you see it.

18. Making your private thoughts and things inaccessible to someone you don't trust.

for number 11 I think i can't change somebody's mind because i can't controle the way they think but i can sometimes control the way they behave with me

but i believe we can't change anyone if they don't want to change but we can change ourselves and actions so i do what i need to do and if they don't change what they suppose to change i go to number 2 leave a situation

WOW i can see how much i got improved it is impressing i am so proud of my accomplishment in the past i was only having under my control number 3 10 18 hmmm pity on me

By the way Gettingthere i am LVS not LVF  

[blackandwhite]

Thank you LVS, BPDfamfan, mollyd, and Gettingthere for your recent contributions.

Mollyd, I'd be interested to hear more about your thoughts on "getting out of the way," if you have time to comment?

Thanks for participating the exercise. Most of the answers seem pretty aligned. LVS, could you explain a bit more about the items you marked as 50% under your control?

For anyone: What do you take from the exercise about boundaries and control?

B&W

[bpdfamfan]

Mollyd, I'd be interested to hear more about your thoughts on "getting out of the way," if you have time to comment?

I've been thinking about this ever since I read it & it has already helped be in a few minor situations! 

I'd also like to hear more, Molly! 

[LVS]

  1. Stopping someone else's behavior.

Still working on finding the right consequences at the right time

 4. Determining under what circumstances you will see someone (barring accidental run ins).

Sometimes i still fall in the obligation and find it hard to say no by putting the others ahead



 6. Getting someone to stop "X" (whatever X might be).

All what i need increase more my self confidence

  8. Accepting the consequences of implementing a boundary, including another person's anger or decision to end the relationship.

I am still working on that sometimes the FOG take over and makes me give more chances



 9. Getting someone to love you in the way you deserved to be loved.

I did so much progress in the area of codependency but still working to keep the back gate closed i am working to not care of how the others see me it is how i see myself i don't need to be the others pleasant i don't need them to love me for what i can give but for who i am

  12. Hanging up the phone, stopping texting, etc.



Fear of making someone angry or mad at me or lose this someone

I meant by 50% that i am still working on them It is about finding the right Consequences

and all what I need Build more my Self Confidence and liberate more myself of the Fear, Obligation, and Guilt

And i just remembered The emotional side play a big role of keeping me struggling

[LVS]

 1. Stopping someone else's behavior.

Still working on finding the right consequences at the right time

 4. Determining under what circumstances you will see someone (barring accidental run ins).

Sometimes i still fall in the obligation and find it hard to say no by putting the others ahead



 6. Getting someone to stop "X" (whatever X might be).

All what i need increase more my self confidence

  8. Accepting the consequences of implementing a boundary, including another person's anger or decision to end the relationship.

I am still working on that sometimes the FOG take over and makes me give more chances



 9. Getting someone to love you in the way you deserved to be loved.

I did so much progress in the area of codependency but still working to keep the back gate closed i am working to not care of how the others see me it is how i see myself i don't need to be the others pleasant i don't need them to love me for what i can give but for who i am

  12. Hanging up the phone, stopping texting, etc.



Fear of making someone angry or mad at me or lose this someone

I meant by 50% that i am still working on them It is about finding the right Consequences

and all what I need Build more my Self Confidence and liberate more myself of the Fear, Obligation, and Guilt

So it is all about us not about controlling the others when we change the situations will changepeople might change too  and what doesn't fit we don't need to keep hammering it we need to be brave to let go

[Jemima]

B & W, you asked:

How did you get from Point A (not feeling like a worthy person who does not deserve to to invaded) to Point B (feeling firm in your values and self-worth and acting accordingly, including saying no in a reasonable way)?

Well, as a teen I was afraid to assert myself. I felt incompetent and incapable. Then, as a young adult (with time out of the home of origin), I began to gain a sense of competence and capacity ... .and I went from being afraid to assert myself to being somewhat aggressive if I felt that someone might be taking advantage of me or dismissing me. Don't get me wrong, I was not always aggressive, just in situations where I felt a little scared or intimidated. My perception that someone was trying to intimidate me would make me angry.

In the past 5-10 years, I have been working on being confident and not feeling threatened just because I am in a challenging situation. Usually the challenging situations are interpersonal in nature --- sit me down to do something intellectual/academic/professional in nature and I am OK but the interpersonal situations sometimes trip me up. I realize that the walls of self-defense go up when I feel intimidated or unsure. In fact, my husband has used those very words, "the walls go up." So in working to deal with my inner insecurity, I have also worked to find a balance between passivity and aggression. I am a small woman and for years it did not occur to me that I was ripping grown men to shreds with my words ... .I didn't intend to hurt anybody, I just wanted to take up for myself. Emotional dysregulation.

Probably if somebody with knowledge of BPD saw me in a dysregulated moment a couple of decades ago, they would have thought I had BPD. But I am fortunate in that I can own up to my mistakes, I can see other people's perspectives, I have a core sense of self. I think that those things have enabled me to get better and to teach myself to regulate my own emotions. I was able to see that I was hurting others by overreacting when I felt threatened. I could see that often I felt threatened when there was no threat.

Something that is still difficult for me to tolerate is when I feel others are blowing me off. It seems a lot of people in my immediate and extended family tend to laugh when they are uncomfortable or when they are wrong about something. This makes me feel very disrespected. I am working hard now to teach myself that this is not my problem. But it is an example of how family systems make each other's problems worse. I think laughing is an inappropriate response to conflict or disagreement, and I do honestly think it is disrespectful. But it is not my problem. It is the problem of people whose automatic response is to laugh in other people's faces. I do not have to let it be my problem.

SO, my answer is that it has been a long journey from Point A to Point B and I still have a ways to go to really be anchored at Point B. Part of the journey has been disengaging from people that don't respect boundaries. This includes my parents. I never went NC with them but reduced contact and reduced the amount of emotional material I would share with them. Honestly I have gotten to the point now where I will take care of my mother and will respect her as the person fulfilling that role in my life --- but I find her (can I say it?) --- boring. It is so boring for someone to be so negative all the time, to constantly pick at minute details and criticize, to pick one grandchild as the golden child (and you know what she's going to say about him at all times), and to constantly criticize the others and try to get me anxious about them. You know what she's going to say about any subject. She doesn't grow or change or get better, she just stays the same.

My parents aren't the only ones I disengaged from. The advent of Facebook, and the accompanying ability to put the faces of most of my friends from high school through the present all on one page, made me realize that many of my earlier friendships were just recapitulations of my relationships with my parents. I ignored really interesting people that might have been a little needy, and pursued rejecting people that were not really interested in my friendship. Some of those people are on my Facebook Friends list, but I notice that with every passing day I am less and less inclined to send them a message. I am blessed that some of the more interesting people have stuck with me and stayed in my life, and I am enjoying them as well as brand-new friendships like never before!

[Gettingthere]

Thank you for sharing Jemima, very eloquently put.

... .and LVS - sorry typing error 

Personally i know my danger is that in trying to keep my boundaries, i have a tendancy if left unchecked to become controlling (as done to me through childhood   ) Does anyone else have this/tips on managing?  As i try and improve myself, i do feel that i have to "step outside of myself" all the time, because my autopilot is not a healthy position if that makes sense. Then i become v critical of myself when that doesnt happen - like last few days. sleep deprived (baby ill) and i know i have been far more reactive than thinking and reacted in ways that i wish i hadnt. i guess its just continual reinforcement... .onwards and upwards   

[Mollyd]

Maybe an extension of the exercise of this thread would be to post the question to everyone ... .with the best boundaries, a sense of personal integrity and honor to yourself and others ... .what does "getting out of the way" mean in your relationship(s)?

For me, once I read the statement in the codependency book, the actions of "getting out of the way" were increasingly clear.  Earlier in my journey with my exNPD spouse, I had a tendency to try and alter my ex spouse (his thoughts, behaviors, actions).  I'd do so in the most seemingly loving way - pleading my case that his behavior was beneath him and damaging to our relationship.  Now, there is some logic to making such a plea, once in a while.  Say for example your spouse smokes cigarettes, and you are truly concerned... .But, as a regular course of action, who am I to determine what is beneath him?  Who am I to determine what someone else is capable of or should do?  In reality, I was just vying for what I wanted ... .I knew if he didn't change, our relationship was doomed. I am allowed to determine the best "me", advocate for the best life for me ... .but, not at the cost of trying to change someone else.

Getting out of the way was "allowing" my spouse to be who he truly was, without my interference.  Now, the obvious problem with that scenario was if/when I got out of the way, the inevitable result was the doom of our "relationship". 

My ex had the right to do what he wanted ... .sexually

to lie

to not manage his emotions

to not want to be married to me

to pursue his addictions over sobriety

to say, think and do things I perceived as unwise, self destructive, or damaging to our marriage

When I got out of the way - without trying to interfere - he made choices that I could not tolerate in a marriage.

I had the right to decide what I would do given his behaviors - and I got the best view of his true choices, only when I stopped trying to interfere.

So our marriage ended, which is not what I wanted, at all.  Still, I needed to get out of the way.  The only way for us to have had a truly viable marriage would have been for me to get out of the way, and for him to have made different choices (which he certainly could have done - but didn't - his right to choose the course of his life).

Now I can apply this logic to the relationship with my BPD bio mom.  She, too, has the right to abandon me, to fail in every view I have as a mother.  It is not for me to change her ... .I've tried to no avail.  When I get out of the way, and accept her as she is, I can live without the burden of having to "fix" someone else, so that I can be OK.  Instead, I can work at being OK in spite of someone else.  I hope that is helpful.

Warmly,

Molly

[MyNascence]

For anyone: What do you take from the exercise about boundaries and control?

B&W

Something that's interesting to me, is just how much we fail to see how our thoughts/actions are controlling.  This exercise has really been an eye opener for me.  Most of us have already accepted that boundaries are not only FOR us, but done by us… we cannot simply expect someone to respect them – we must protect them.

In my opinion, one of the most difficult things for people who have been raised by BPD’s or in a long term BPD relationship is understanding that a person’s reaction, thoughts, feelings, etc. when we are acting according to our values, are completely beyond our control.  Haven’t we all been programmed to anticipate the BPD’s response/feelings?

I think bringing in the idea of our personal value system into the mix, makes this much clearer.   I would like further clarification on the idea of “values.”  I think this is the part that’s still tripping me up.  When I think of the word values, I think of the word morals.    This is what I keep going back to, I’m confused by the two.

Aren’t we taught our values and morals?  Or are they simply the things we value most?  Things that we personally want for ourselves.  And if so, aren’t we in danger of having values that are – in and of themselves – controlling?  The idea of “values” themselves is unclear to me.

So many people seem to have a different idea of what values were violated.  One person stated their privacy was violated, another that their fidelity and trust were violated, and yet another person said that it violated their feelings/wishes.

So WHAT really is a value?

For example:

(I don’t have children, but if I did…)

Lets say, I don’t want my mother to be alone with my child.  Is that a value?  Or is that just a wish (like not wanting photos taken).

I don’t want my child to be alone with my mother BECAUSE I don’t want her to break his/her spirit like she did mine.  Is that a value, or is it still a wish?

I cherish my child, and how vowed to protect him/her.  Is THAT a value?


I was not taught values.  I was taught religious and social 'morals,' but to have our own values would require our own identity, right?  

[Jemima]

In the way I use the term "values" ... .it means literally something we VALUE. Technically (in the marketplace) we can put either a high value or a low value on something. However, in the "intangible" world of "personal values" it generally means "something we place a HIGH value on."

Values can be implicit, in that we act according to them without consciously understanding what we are doing. I think "morality" is a more conscious process and it is more explicitly stated by our social systems --- what you think is OK regarding sexuality, regarding honesty and fairness, regarding your obligations to others.

For example, I stated above that I value my personal privacy, and to me that means my ability to tell or not to tell someone about things, my ability to make independent decisions without interference, my ability to put more or less psychic space between myself and another person. I would not label that "morality" because there are no explicit "rules" about personal privacy that I know of.

Maybe we are mincing words, but I think values go beyond an explicit moral code (the basic "rules" that a whole society or a small segment of society has codified to broadly define what is acceptable behavior) to the elements that each individual person thinks is important to maintain a meaningful life.

[Jemima]

Oh and I also wanted to comment on the question if not leaving your child alone with your mother would be a value. I think the value is: I value my child's wellbeing and I recognize that being around my mother is destructive to my child. Therefore, since I cannot ensure that my mother will be nurturing rather than destructive, I must not leave my child alone with her.

A boundary is a limit set based on what you think is important. Where most of us trip up is, we think that once a boundary is set the work is done. No, we must defend our boundaries. Sad to think of it this way, but with personality-disordered people it is like war. We are the city at peace with big walls around us (our boundaries), and they are the army marching in to destroy our peace and take our stuff and put our citizenry into slavery. We have the walls (boundaries) but if we don't defend them they will just march in through the open front gate or poke holes in the walls and pour in.

I think the problem with most of us is, we were taught not to put a high VALUE on ourselves in so many ways. Even when we had appropriate boundaries, if somebody knew the password (like if they were our parents or resembled our parents), we would just open the gate and let them past our boundaries. Often we have acted as if we thought they had a right to enslave us and our children, and to take our stuff for their own use!

It's hard when you have just unconsciously and without understanding swung open the door to boundary-crashers and you have to totally re-build the way you deal with them.

[blackandwhite]

Thank you BPDfamfan, LVS, Jemima, gettingthere, Mollyd, and MyNascence for your continued wonderful contributions to this workshop. So much to talk about!

Jemima said:

I think values go beyond an explicit moral code (the basic "rules" that a whole society or a small segment of society has codified to broadly define what is acceptable behavior) to the elements that each individual person thinks is important to maintain a meaningful life.

MyNascence said:

I was not taught values.  I was taught religious and social 'morals,' but to have our own values would require our own identity, right?  

Yes, exactly. I'm really glad you're circling in on this, MyNascence. Really important issue. I'm going to get to it in a minute.

We all have values--things we value and act to protect, as Jemima succinctly put it.

Sometimes we act to protect the things we say we value or believe intellectually that we value (our privacy, for example). We're consistent all the way through, from our stated beliefs to our inner core of feelings to our explicit actions.

Sometimes we act to protect things that we may not even be aware are among our strongest values and may be quite harmful (our magical thinking that we can "make" someone else respect us; someone else's ability to abuse us).

What, how can I say one of our values is that someone else should be able to abuse us? Because we reveal our values by our actions. Remember boundaries = our value system in action. If we allow abuse by making it easy, not speaking up, not "getting out of the way" as mollyd put it, then we are stating as loudly as if we grabbed a bullhorn and started shouting that one of our values is "this person (or other people) get to abuse me because I am not worth protecting (or their feelings are more important than mine, or if I don't let them then they will fall apart and I will feel terrible, or... .)."

When we don't have a strong personal value system that goes all the way through from what we say through what we feel to how we act, we get confused. We get confused about ourselves, we brandish the lock and say "Why don't you respect me?" We get confused when others behave in one way and explicitly say things that are contradictory. "I love you" while hitting. "I believe in fidelity and don't you cheat on me" while cheating. "God/the law/parental authority/the boss/the guru/our culture/our family teaches us X" while doing Y.

MyNascence, you said you were taught religious and social "morals." Did those morals go all the way through the people teaching them? Did their actions, words, attitudes, and feelings towards life spring consistently and flow naturally from those stated morals? If they did, you were lucky, because probably the world makes a lot of sense to you and you have a similar consistent set of values that goes all the way through you. If they didn't, or if they did but you fundamentally disagreed with them, then you are left with the painful but crucial task of developing your own consistent values that seamlessly knit together actions, words, attitudes, feelings. (Not to say that we can't have some contradictions to work out or need to balance values at times. We can also change, thank goodness. That's all part of being an evolving human. But having a basic alignment of all of this is indeed, as you put it, having your own identity.)

You have values, what you may need to do is surface them.

What do your actions actually protect? Those are your values.

What do you WANT your actions to protect? Those are your goal values.

Jemima described her journey from A to B.

This is the journey:

A (current values, some perhaps not even conscious to you) to B (goal values, consistent all the way through you, so that their expression is natural in the form of your boundaries).

An example. MyNascence said:

Lets say, I don’t want my mother to be alone with my child.  Is that a value? Or is it a wish?

The way it's expressed, it's a wish. The values beneath it might be something like one or more of these:

• As a parent, I make decisions about who my child spends time with.



• I act to protect my child's safety.



• My responsibility as a parent includes shielding my child from people I don't feel to be safe, even if they are close relatives.



• I am willing to anger an important person in order to protect my child, even if I'm afraid.



• Honoring my mother for me includes recognizing her limitations, including that having her alone with my child is not safe.

We might want to spend some time examining what makes a value statement. There's a lot to discuss.  

[MyNascence]

Interesting.  Thank you both for your reply.

What I'm understanding, then is that defended boundaries are an outward reflection of your personal value system?

Does that work for other behaviors?

So if we consistently, say... .allow people to use, abuse, disrespect and harm us... .even though we SAY we value ourselves, we really don't?

If we are selfish in a relationship, and want only our needs and wants fulfilled without taking the time and energy to fulfill the needs/desires of the other person, does that then say that we do not (currently) value that other person?

I had a difficult time participating in this workshop due to my unclear view of my values, but understand better now. 

I will stop threadjacking now.

[blackandwhite]

Interesting.  Thank you both for your reply.

What I'm understanding, then is that defended boundaries are an outward reflection of your personal value system?

Does that work for other behaviors?

So if we consistently, say... .allow people to use, abuse, disrespect and harm us... .even though we SAY we value ourselves, we really don't?

If we are selfish in a relationship, and want only our needs and wants fulfilled without taking the time and energy to fulfill the needs/desires of the other person, does that then say that we do not (currently) value that other person?

I had a difficult time participating in this workshop due to my unclear view of my values, but understand better now. 

I will stop threadjacking now.

Yes, yes, and yes!

Not threadjacking. This is the absolute core of this topic. 

[LVS]

Thank you for all the participant it is adding more value to this workshop 

All my life i was having poor boundaries yes i was using a lock but keeping the back gate widely open. Recently, after i joined the BPDF and other forum i learned about boundaries violation and how to protect my boundaries and started working on my priorities in life and setting my goals and values.

What you said is absolutely true working on my PRIORITIES was the starting point to save my boundaries because my main weakness was my obsession to care for the others well being AFRAID to make someone else mad or angry or upset but it was ok and no problem if this other one do upset me hurt me or... .I can manage my self and forgive them but i can't forgive myself if i accidentally hurt someone and the feeling of GUILT will accompany me for a big while and will spend so much time thinking how to apologize for what i ACCIDENTALLY did forgetting the tons of hurt done in purpose from that other person

[anker]

I personally value openness and honesty especially in my online interactions.

When I was dating BPDx he was unwilling to be open abut his actions online. To be specific, he had asked me to be monogamous to him but refused to publicly post our relationship on his facebook. He didn't want anyone to know.

Now I have a boundary for this. I do not get serous with anyone who feels the need for secrecy about our involvement. At the time I don't know how I could have made this boundary, though, without just leaving him.


I have trouble understanding how to use boundaries regarding neglect or silwnt treatments.it seems like the only boundary I can make to stop neglect is to leave. Boundaries aboutneglect feel more like ultimatums. I don't know how to apply them.


For example; my BPDx got angry that I was late so he refused to answer the phone.

what could I do? I tried to call a few times then gave up. When he finally called me he was even more angry that I gave up. He invites me over then ignores me.when I pointed out I didn't want to be ignored he. Said I was crazy and everything was fine.

Asking for what I wanted would get him even more withdrawn.

How do you use a boundary to keep your self valued when a partner or family member is withholding?

[lbjnltx]

boarding after the boat has left the dock here.

while in the confused state early on... .before my d12 was dx/emerging BPD i was in a pitiful way!  i had no idea what was up!  i was being abused by my own child.  when i finally realized that in those terms is when things began to turn around for ME.  i worked on myself in hopes that i could reclaim my sanity, get some peace, and that in some way would help my daughter.  and that is exactly what happened.

i had to ask myself first and foremost what do i need? then... .how can i get my needs met?  the answers were simple... .the process was not.  first i had to get my priorities in order... .being a spiritual being first and foremost i focused on what God wanted for me... .did He want me to be miserable, confused, scared?  no ... .He wants me to be at peace and be kind... .but how do i get there?  focus on Him.  treat others with love and kindness... .even if they are abusive... .protect yourself... .so i began to set boundaries... .based on what God wants for me.  i started w/my personal safety and then my d's personal safety... .so i set those boundaries... .what happened next is miraculous!  i found my personal power again.  i began to see what i needed to do and how i needed to do it because i had clarity and the fog was gone.  i began to set more boundaries... .well thought out... .totally committed to.  i no longer subjected myself to abuse... .i would just leave and not return home until my d had calmed down.  the boundaries do not change no matter what!  even if the consequences cost me too... .they are just as important as the boundary that was set.  does this mean that setting the boundary will change another persons behavior?  NO!  does that make the boundary useless or wrong?  NO  does that mean the boundary needs to change? NO  the power is in knowing fully that i deserve to be safe, i deserve to be respected, that i deserve to have peace in my life ... .and it is up to me to make sure i do everything i can to get what i deserve.  i think that in some cases... .people who do not set boundaries for themselves suffer from a low self image... .in my case i just suffered and was in so much pain and confusion early on that i didn't know what to do... .this is my child. 

the second priority is SELF.  take care of self before others... .be healthy yourself so that you can help others and do what you can.


then in comes others.  i can only present opportunities for others to change... .i cannot orchestrate the outcome... .i can request... .without consequences... .and when it comes to boundaries... .i can demand ... .with consequences.  when i request i must let go of expectations as much as possible.  for example... i can request that my d get up and ready to catch the bus for school... .if she chooses not to then i let her own the consequences of that... .i don't beg her to get up... .i ask her "are you going to school today?"  if she says "yes" i tell her how long until the bus arrives.  if she doesn't get up in time to catch the bus i don't drive her.  when the school calls to ask why she is not there i tell them the truth and if they want her to come to school they can talk to her and send the truancy officer to come get her.  i will not fight w/her about her make up work or homework.  the school has agreed to work with her in an after school program to get those tasks completed.  it is not my homework.  i didn't miss the bus. i didn't skip assignments.  on and on it goes... .without boundaries and the clarity to not enable, rescue from consequences, or own another's' responsibilities... .to let go of any idea that i can control another person it is so easy to get lost once more in the confusing fog of having a relationship w/a pwBPD.

so in the end boundaries give me:

a sense of personal power and control over my own life

a sense of peace

clarity on what, how, how much, and when i do or do not do things

and hope that one day... .through Gods' grace and a healthy environment to live in w/parents who set a healthy example... .my BPD14 will set healthy boundaries for herself and know this same peace.

lbjnltx

[LVS]

lbjnltx      

This what i am working on now Thank you for sharing  x

[At Bay]

Question: Briefly, explain a situation where your boundaries been violated?

I was ill with high white blood cell count and a mysterious malady per doctor in ER.  BPDh caused me emotional pain in addition to the fear I was already feeling, by accusing me of being sick because I’d had an affair with someone (men in suits who looked good at my office).

Question: How what values did it violate?

To be treated with respect.

To acknowledge I’m trustworthy.

That I deserved compassion.

Question: What did you do?

At the time I had to focus on my health and what I had contracted. It was severe food poisoning and you do not want that kind because it can kill you. I think I told him he was horrible, and my sister came to my bedside, but I didn’t tell her what he’d done. I felt like less of a person after the accusation like a pathetic figure in the bed whose husband had chosen to add misery to. That’s what happens when you’ve been covering for him. Today, she knows everything and the first thing out of my mouth would be: You won’t believe this.

Question: What happened?

When I returned home after several days, I asked why in God’s name he thought that about me. I’d forgotten that his mother had an affair many people knew about. Anyway, he said he had to sit on a hard chair for hours there and was in a bad mood. He “apologized.” Apparently, he couldn’t think of a way to blame me and since men do look good in suits, he saw no problem with his sick logic.

Question: How do you feel about it?

I feel he’s never going to change in spite of his 7 yrs of therapy. The fact that I stayed after what happened at the hospital is even more discouraging to me. Now, I feel that it could never happen again and it is a good feeling, but I wonder what I'm doing. I see four reasons that terrible behavior would not be tolerated again under the same circumstances.

1. The element of surprise is gone.

2. I’ve stopped covering for him.

3. His opinion doesn’t define me.

4. My self-respect returned.

I'm pretty sure I'm supposed to learn something from the above and focus on what I'm allowing in my life now.

[still around]

Please excuse me for jumping on this boat long after it's left the dock (serious technical difficulties on this end), but this is an awesome thread and I've found out from reading here, more than I've ever known about this subject.  I must have values, but don't know what they are, and my boundaries have recently been violated so often and so frighteningly that I now avoid others as much as I can.

Very recent situation:  one afternoon someone stomped up my porch and hammered on the door.  My heart in my mouth, I opened the door and a man was there I vaguely recognized from across the street.  He said there was some stuff coming loose on my roof I should fix because he could see it from his house, and he was here to offer his help.  He then proceeded to badmouth his wife, calling her "a lazy bum" and a bunch of other things, then went on at length about how he stayed in shape, and he suddenly pulled up his shirt to expose a hairy belly.  I had been scared green by the hammering on the door, but managed to keep him from coming inside throughout all this talking and had gradually eased him down the steps and out to the sidewalk where I tried to politely end the conversation and get him to leave. As we stood there, a man drove by in a truck and stared angrily at us, whereas my visitor started waving frantically at the guy, crying "There he is, that's my father-in-law!"  I was horrified:  it looked like I was friendly with this unwanted intruder, like I had solicited him to come over to my house or something.  I felt like the neighborhood floozy.

What values did it violate?  I must have a strong value of privacy because I don't want anyone from this park coming around my house. ( I have some really good reasons for this, but it's a whole other story and I don't want to digress.)  I'm already aware that I have a strong value of not wanting men hanging around, or women for that matter.  This visit violated a personal-safety value.  And also, I found it insulting that some strange guy thinks he can come around me and run down his wife and show off his hairy gut (as if I would give a rat's arse.)

What did I do?  This is going to sound like a complete coward's cop-out, but I swear to God it's true, and always true when i get "caught" by someone, the minute the pounding on the door began, I mentally went somewhere else.  No, I don't become unconscious, I answered the door but placated and agreed and uh-huh to everything he said, the best thing I can do in situations like this is I didn't actually agree with him about what he said about the wife, but I didn't disagree either.

What happened?  When the father-in-law appeared, he finally left, after I'd promised to let him know the minute I was going to fix the roof so he could come help.  (It is not going to happen.)

How do I feel about it?  I was very glad he was finally gone.  I was glad I hadn't offended him and given him any reason to retaliate.  At the same time, I felt horrible to have been seen standing out on the sidewalk with him.  I still do.  I also feel very ashamed, in retrospect, that I wasn't able to get rid of him immediately, and that I didn't give him Hail Columbia about coming over here badmouthing his wife.

Thanks for the opportunity to attempt to write some thing like this down... .I feel great anxiety about posting and am always glad to read when others share that they too, have fears about it. 

   s a

[Randi Kreger]

Again, boundaries = your value system in action. If you're interested, you can take a look at the book where I got this quote and used it in the limits chapter of The Essential Family Guide: In their book Better Boundaries, authors Jan Black and Greg Enns explain that establishing limits in relationships can very quickly raise our life experiences to a new level of competency and joy. Limits, they say, protect us from being or feeling “controlled, manipulated, ‘fixed,’ misunderstood, abused, discounted, demeaned, or wrongly judged.” According to the authors, limits form an identifiable shape around our beliefs and preferences. They bring order to our lives: without them, we become overwhelmed with the demands of others and are tempted by “sirens of opportunity” to do things that steer us off course. In this way, limits are our values in action, free from anyone else’s control or influence.  

[Randi Kreger]

Someone said:Sad to think of it this way, but with personality-disordered people it is like war. We are the city at peace with big walls around us (our boundaries), and they are the army marching in to destroy our peace and take our stuff and put our citizenry into slavery. We have the walls (boundaries) but if we don't defend them they will just march in through the open front gate or poke holes in the walls and pour in.I understand that feeling. I had something like that with my BP mother. The way I think of boundaries is asking yourself one question: WHAT DO I NEED TO DO TO TAKE CARE OF MYSELF? There, the focus is on you more than the other person. Some BPs are extremely sensitive to feeling pushed away, and thinking of it as a war can create a cycle where they start to act out, which makes the non act out, and it all gets into chaos. I think of not a wall, but I think of a bubble made of unbreakable clear plastic that surrounds me, and only I can let people in or not.

[Clearmind]

Often we get into trouble in boundary setting because we have conflicting values at stake and we can only see extreme reactions as options. Example: Boyfriend is usually very attentive to you but one night, he shows a bit too much interest in another woman at a party. We think we have two options only: I pretend nothing has happened and nothing is bothering me, because I believe in sticking with a relationship through thick and thin OR without discussion I put boyfriend out on his ear because I believe any sign of attraction to another is a violation of fidelity and any violation ends the relationship.

Pretend nothing has happened = enmeshed response, boundaries too flexible

End relationship immediately = disengaged response, boundaries too rigid

Either response comes from the notion that we cannot balance values, but instead must act completely from one.

Follow up questions: CaptainM, what are your value now around fidelity and caretaking in the relationship?

"I believe... .[values]

Have you continued to work on clarify and strengthening your values around fidelity and caretaking?

How and how have you communicated those with your SO, if you have?

B & W, the senario you posed is something I have been through to a tee. I am in a dance scene and I am ok with my partner (ex now - long time ago, strone BPD traits and a rager) dancing with others but I did a limit - if I felt it was getting a little too intimate I would call him on it. I would wait til we got home to make a scene. I was tring to be flexible as you say - ok with him dancing with others but not ok with the way he did it.

This went on and on. He raged and I left the relationship. So while I agree that be inflexible and being counterphobic are two extremes sometimes being rigid with some is out of necessity. When the boundaries are crossed way too often then my coutnerphobic reaction kicks in. So I guess what I am saying is that there is a place for being too rigid.

[BattleBornMom]

US: Boundaries - Upholding our values and independence

Question: Briefly, explain a situation where your boundaries been violated?

Question: How what values did it violate? 

Question: What did you do?   

Question: What happened?

Question: How do you feel about it?

This is a recent (months) situation that continues to haunt me. I still don't know how to process it or where to put it.

1) The Situation:

I grew up with a great deal of raging, screaming, and violence in my household. I always swore to myself that my children would never experience the same. Never. Thus far, I have upheld this this boundary very well. On the rare occassions where my DH and I argue/disagree, there is never any screaming or even raised voices. Firm voices are our limit. Things are kept brief and not hashed for hours on end.

My uBPDm lives with me in a basement "apartment" of my house. I went downstairs with my baby girl in my arms, she was probably 6-7 months old. Before I knew it, and I don't remember why, my mother was raging at me. Screaming. Yelling. Cursing. Insulting me. As I always have, I stood there and took it, frantically thinking how I could calm her. Then, I realized what was happening. My mother was doing all of this while I held my baby girl in my arms. Something I swore I would never let my kids experience. On the inside, I crumbled into shame, hurt, fear, weakness, guilt, and feelings of inadequecy. I had failed to protect my baby. On the outside, I stood rooted to the spot.

I looked over at the door leading upstairs with longing. It was *right there*! Why couldn't I walk to it? Why was I frozen?

I felt so helpless and violated that I lashed out. I screamed back at my mother to "Get the F out of my house!" Of course, this was the absolute worse thing I could have done. Not only did it reinforce the disordered feelings and thinking of my mother, but now I had further violated my own boundries with my daughter. Inside, I crumbled even more.

2) Clearly it violated my boundaries of exposing my children to that level of rage and anger.

3) From there my memory is foggy -- I honestly don't remember if I did walk away (though I doubt it) or I stayed longer and took more abuse. I also might have dissolved into a mess of tears and incoherent begging my mother to stop the insanity and swearing to her I didn't mean it. Probably the later. I simply am unsure.

4) Eventually things must have cooled and been "righted." I'm not sure how they got there or what happened. I never am. But my mother didn't leave, so clearly I must have smoothed things over somehow.

5) I feel anger and resentment, mostly toward myself. I am angry at myself for allowing my daughter to be put in that position. I am angry she saw, heard and felt all of that. I am angry I fell back into my old role of fixer and did whatever I had to do to make my mother comfortable. I am angry my daughter saw me so weak and helpless. I am angry I allowed my mother to put me in that position. I regret the situation deeply.

So, there it is. And I still don't know what to do with it. The sad part? It is not the only time this has happened since my mother has lived with me. :'( It is just the example that is more clear in my mind.