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Author Topic: 2.02 | Don't "JADE" (justify, argue, defend, explain)  (Read 56834 times)
Inquisitive1
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« Reply #30 on: September 13, 2016, 10:56:18 AM »

Thank you to the original writers of this workshop. So short, but so helpful. Reading this gave me a smile, because it captured the futility of the JADE'ing approach I've been using and it gave me hope.
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12years
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« Reply #31 on: May 24, 2017, 10:19:34 PM »

Okay, I have read all this...I think I understand JADE, but what is SET, GIVE and DEARMAN?
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ArleighBurke
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« Reply #32 on: May 24, 2017, 10:59:56 PM »

SET = Sympathy, Empathy, Truth - a good conversational structure technique. Probably described elsewhere - but when you listen to someone pouring their heart to you, express sympathy first, then empathy, then (if required) add truth. "It must be horrible to feel that your best friend hates you. I would feel horrible too if I was in that situation. Perhaps that's not quite what she meant by that statement...?"

DEARMAN = Describe the situation, Express what you want, Assert the benefits, Reinforce your point, then listen with Mindfulness, Appear confident and Negotiate
www.mindfulnessmuse.com/dialectical-behavior-therapy/using-d-e-a-r-m-a-n-to-get-what-you-want

GIVE = not sure!
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« Reply #33 on: May 25, 2017, 12:34:14 PM »

I JADE often. My God, do I JADE!

It's what kept me around him for so long. My need to justify, argue, defend, and explain myself. I thought that if I used my empathy and translated into a language he'd understand that I would be able to make him see my POV. Not necessarily agree with me because a lot of our arguments were actually about things we agreed with (funny, I know) and also I feel some things are too subjective to agree on, but mostly so he could understand where I was coming from. It didn't work at all, it led to more misunderstandings, more frustration, and staying together longer than we should have. I'm working on this right now. Our last fight I was so exhausted from years of JADEing that I had an epiphany: don't do it anymore. He will never see your POV and he will never have empathy for you. It's not how he's wired. Now I'm working on being accepting of this without continuing the friendship.
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heartandwhole
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« Reply #34 on: May 28, 2017, 10:54:03 AM »

Okay, I have read all this...I think I understand JADE, but what is SET, GIVE and DEARMAN?

Hi 12years,

We have lots of information about S.E.T. and DEARMAN here:

https://BPDfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=143695.0

https://BPDfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=160566.0

Hope it helps!

heartandwhole
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Meili
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« Reply #35 on: September 04, 2017, 10:44:04 PM »

One of the things that I struggled with a lot when I began trying to improve my situation was JADE’ing. I was caught in circuitous thinking.

If she would only understand why I really did what I did.
She’s completely wrong, if she only knew the truth.
How can she say those things about me? I need to let her know what really happened.
If I can only explain the reality of the situation.


These were very common thought patterns in which I engaged. My belief was that if I did not change her mind, I would lose her. What was actually happening was that I was making things worse.

JADE’ing is a very common thing for us to do. Why do we do it?
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FrustratedFried
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« Reply #36 on: September 04, 2017, 10:59:25 PM »

Though my situation is far more different from those on here, I did it because I was hoping it would bring him and I back to the friendship we had before things went south.

He liked to talk to me and said it helped him.  That was the primary reason why I wanted to justify talking.

But as with any BPD talking will only be on their terms.  As a result...in my case I want to be in a safe zone.  But before I decided to do so, I really wanted to make things work.
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Sunfl0wer
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« Reply #37 on: September 05, 2017, 05:55:32 AM »

Why do we do it?

Control.
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Panda39
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« Reply #38 on: September 05, 2017, 06:55:21 AM »

Why do we do it?  

The desire to be understood.
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« Reply #39 on: September 07, 2017, 02:31:43 PM »

JADE’ing is a very common thing for us to do. Why do we do it?

in my case it was partly about being right (it was for the reasons others mentioned as well). id been a wounded puppy in previous relationships.

when my ex would start raging (usually by text) i knew it was usually best to exit the conversation and let her cool off (although i would learn later thats not always the best idea, it can become a power move, and it can also escalate things). shed get a line in, id read it, and id just have to one up her and get a dig in. i guess it made me feel superior, or something like that; "strong" where i hadnt been in previous relationships.

drama. i dont know if id say i "liked it" but it must have had some appeal.
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     and I think it's gonna be all right; yeah; the worst is over now; the mornin' sun is shinin' like a red rubber ball…
IsThisThingOn
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« Reply #40 on: September 07, 2017, 02:55:19 PM »

If she would only understand why I really did what I did.

How can she say those things about me? I need to let her know what really happened.


These two hit home. They pretty much go hand in hand in a lot of cases between me and my GF because often times when something does happen that she feels was done maliciously and/or in a deceitful manner (as examples) she would couple her emotions behind what I'd done (really, the emotions that were caused for her in what had happened) with attacking my character. One thing I pride myself very highly in is that I live by 3 basic standards: Loyalty, Honesty, Respect.

When those pieces of me are attacked and I do take it very personally. I've had to learn that in those moments her feelings are making her feel like I've compromised those personal standards. Not that she believes I am disloyal, dishonest, or disrespectful.. I happen to know she doesnt think that at all. But the emotion created also causes the momentary "He IS a liar/disrespectful/disloyal" ... For the most part knowing that has curved my urge to JADE, but it is still a work in progress.

The other part is, for me its always been very important to understand things. It makes me feel better about whatever is going on. Understanding means being in control. As in, I can control my response or reaction appropriately because I "get it."

So, when something would happen that I knew was taken the wrong way, I felt a need to set the record straight. Fact is... that just never did any good.
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« Reply #41 on: September 07, 2017, 02:59:55 PM »

When those pieces of me are attacked and I do take it very personally. I've had to learn that in those moments her feelings are making her feel like I've compromised those personal standards. Not that she believes I am disloyal, dishonest, or disrespectful.. I happen to know she doesnt think that at all. But the emotion created also causes the momentary "He IS a liar/disrespectful/disloyal" ... For the most part knowing that has curved my urge to JADE, but it is still a work in progress.

i think this is key. learning to see and understand anothers perspective (listening with empathy), accepting it as valid and not invalidating it or necessarily trying to change it. it can really suck away that tendency to JADE.
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     and I think it's gonna be all right; yeah; the worst is over now; the mornin' sun is shinin' like a red rubber ball…
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« Reply #42 on: September 07, 2017, 03:27:24 PM »

For me, it was about, at the root of everything, insecurities.

It was my need to feel that she understood why I did things in hopes that she would find me "good enough" and stop being so angry and upset.

It was my need to feel heard.

It was my need to prove to her that I was right and "good enough."
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patientandclear
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« Reply #43 on: September 09, 2017, 10:52:58 AM »

Why do we do it?

How about "in order to exist as a person in a relationship and not as a coach, therapist or caretaker?"
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Meili
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« Reply #44 on: September 09, 2017, 11:15:12 AM »

What do you mean PnC?
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Panda39
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« Reply #45 on: September 14, 2017, 08:40:55 PM »

Why do we do it?

I was just going to say "to be right"...I'm going where Meili was already headed but I would add that beyond feeling good enough...being "right" so that you can feel superior to the other person.  I did much of that in my co-dependent/alcoholic marriage, because we too get something from doing the dysfunctional co-dependent dance.  I'm right! I'm better than you! I feel better about myself!

Panda39
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« Reply #46 on: September 15, 2017, 09:48:32 AM »

For myself I thought JADEing would help him see things my way. Having a clear understanding of both sides in a conflict is so important to me that I just naturally went to describing my reasoning for doing what I was doing. And I would get so frustrated that he refused to even consider my side of things.

Don't JADE has significantly changed the way I handle conflict with my H. And it works. Amazingly! I still have to fight the urge because it's natural to want to defend yourself in the midst of blame and accusation. When we have significant fights, looking back it always comes down to I began to JADE.
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« Reply #47 on: September 15, 2017, 12:11:30 PM »

I mentioned this in another thread, I mentally think not JADE when the situation arises, I was on vacation in August, I was visiting my parents and my dad has very black and white thinking, I didn't understand the psych until I signed up for BPDFamily anyways he starts talking about religion and politics, topics that I generally stay away from because they're so polarizing. I'm listening to him, you don't get a chance to talk because he dominates every conversation and talks about himself, and I think "don't JADE" I don't know how much time I wasted trying to convince him with my point of view or a different one and I used to get frustrated and take it personally but it's his ego that gets in the way, he can't make himself look bad so he'll argue with you.

I hadn't seen him for awhile and I use don't JADE often, he's giving me his opinion and I've gone down this road a million times with him and I think that he noticed something different this time, he turned at me and said "Are you just going to sit there and say nothing? Don't you have an opinion?" I smiled and just said "An opinion is just an opinion" and left it at that. It was awesome to be able to approach him with tools that I learned for my exuBPDw and take control of myself and just let it all slide off my back  Being cool (click to insert in post)
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sweetheart
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« Reply #48 on: September 15, 2017, 02:18:36 PM »

JADE saved my sanity.
It was the first skill I learnt and used and it is AMAZING 
I use it with my mum as well, very helpful with family.
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« Reply #49 on: September 25, 2017, 03:08:05 AM »

I find it much easier to not JADE when he's talking about somebody else, but when things get personal (it usually does), I have a hard time controlling myself.  I guess he knows how to hit it where it hurts, to attack me in areas in which I am already shaky.  In an urge to "prove" myself (never works by the way), I JADE.

Just re-read the thread and realise I have posted here years ago.  I guess I'm getting complacent and have reverted to my old ways.  But I understand why I JADE- it hurts to have the closest person in your life telling you you've failed them, and they have never, ever felt loved by you!  You don't want to believe it! 

So should I just let it go?  Meaning don't take his words to heart too much, just know that it comes from a place of hurt feelings, and try to validate those feelings?
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heartandwhole
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« Reply #50 on: September 25, 2017, 04:03:17 AM »

Hi Chosen,

It's human nature to JADE sometimes. In the heat of the moment, I'm not good at avoiding it, either.

So should I just let it go?  Meaning don't take his words to heart too much, just know that it comes from a place of hurt feelings, and try to validate those feelings?

I think that's a good plan. I know it can be difficult—you're right: we don't want to believe it!

When a pwBPD (or anyone, for that matter) says, "I've never felt loved by you," that is coming from within them and not necessarily a reflection of anything you've done or not done. In other words, no matter how much you bend over backwards to show someone how much they mean to you, they may not be able to take it in; to feel it. In my view, that's down to one's own capacity to feel loved (to open, to receive, to believe, etc.).

Of course, that doesn't mean that we don't keep showing our care and love. Smiling (click to insert in post) Have you tried S.E.T. when these kinds of statements come up? That would validate his feelings and give the responsibility of taking care of them back onto him. I think many of us don't communicate well what specific actions from our partners would make us feel loved.

heartandwhole
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« Reply #51 on: January 18, 2019, 02:16:28 AM »

Hi guys so this is a great thread. I came here because I am in a bit of a crisis mode and trying to remember how to navigate it. So if I am being accused of doing something or being motivated by something for example missing my train stop to get home means that I don’t care about anything and I’m irresponsible and just callous person. Obviously things are blown out of proportion and my instinct when being insulted and threatened is to protect myself and logically say this isn’t a rational response. But I understand that it would perpetuate the argument cycle. So instead my understanding is if it is too heated I need to take a time out( go to the gym, take a walk) and when she( my aunt) calms down use S.E.T to explain my truth? I am just trying to understand how to communicate my view of the situation? Maybe it’s magical thinking but somehow I’m hoping that once I keep using these techniques maybe her behavior would change...or only my perception would?
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