Was good sex used as a manipulation tool ?

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

There always seems to be comment arguing the innate behaviours of the BPD v more active 'conscious' manipulation. I think many accept that past their  honeymoon stage (where your BPD positive emotions toward you are on steroids : )  is when the colder cognitive manipulations ramp up! In my case, my ex and I  had genuine sexual chemistry ( i knew i made my contribution,  ) but had an added negative BPD - trigger of living with my ex -partner  pending full separation/ house sale.

What I found, is once my BPD waif ex realised i was very much enjoying myself, her ability to switch off 'psychologically' (if she felt she wasn't getting enough benefit out of the situation) came into very useful effect. i.e. If I wasn't leaving my house to live independently anytime soon, she suddenly was asking herself  what was in it for her outside of great sex?  From what i know of her know I can imagine her thinking; Well i can get 'decent enough' sex anywhere [if i really needed to] but I could also get a lot more commitment from someone in a better, more independent domestic situation!   

The reason I say the above is it dawned on me we had a high level of hook up cancellations after the first six  months (we were in a 'situation' for 18 months) Now, they weren't an issue for me at that stage as i was very casual about the situation. I was just happy consistently interacting on a regular basis and meeting when we could. Now i think about it, that creation of distance had two potentially useful outcomes for my ex: 1) It protected her from getting too involved (and getting hurt if she couldn't get what she wanted). 2) It would easier allow me to easier 'motivated' ; ) to do something big - like moving out before the house could be sold i.e. quite possibly supposing I would be more likely to fall in love if the lust was only being fulfilled in measured portions.

It's all quite fascinating looking back. Any others feeling sex became more a manipulation tool once their BPD moved away from their honeymoon phase... .?

[Forearmed]

There always seems to be comment arguing the innate behaviours of the BPD v more active 'conscious' manipulation. I think many accept that past their  honeymoon stage (where your BPD positive emotions toward you are on steroids : )  is when the colder cognitive manipulations ramp up! In my case, my ex and I  had genuine sexual chemistry ( i knew i made my contribution,  ) but had an added negative BPD - trigger of living with my ex -partner  pending full separation/ house sale.

What I found, is once my BPD waif ex realised i was very much enjoying myself, her ability to switch off 'psychologically' (if she felt she wasn't getting enough benefit out of the situation) came into very useful effect. i.e. If I wasn't leaving my house to live independently anytime soon, she suddenly was asking herself  what was in it for her outside of great sex?  From what i know of her know I can imagine her thinking; Well i can get 'decent enough' sex anywhere [if i really needed to] but I could also get a lot more commitment from someone in a better, more independent domestic situation!   

The reason I say the above is it dawned on me we had a high level of hook up cancellations after the first six  months (we were in a 'situation' for 18 months) Now, they weren't an issue for me at that stage as i was very casual about the situation. I was just happy consistently interacting on a regular basis and meeting when we could. Now i think about it, that creation of distance had two potentially useful outcomes for my ex: 1) It protected her from getting too involved (and getting hurt if she couldn't get what she wanted). 2) It would easier allow me to easier 'motivated' ; ) to do something big - like moving out before the house could be sold i.e. quite possibly supposing I would be more likely to fall in love if the lust was only being fulfilled in measured portions.

It's all quite fascinating looking back. Any others feeling sex became more a manipulation tool once their BPD moved away from their honeymoon phase... .?

[juju2]

Manipulation, perhaps.  He couldnt finish w me, and that made me doubt my attractiveness, sexually, what was wrong with me, never happened to me before.   Idk.
we had a lot of chemistry.  I dont understand.

[gotbushels]

Forearmed   

I do appreciate your thoughts here.

she suddenly was asking herself  what was in it for her outside of great sex? 

My ex asked me sometimes what the point of having any relationship was if the only 'good' thing was sex, so this was addressed directly in my relationship.

Regarding the manipulative aspect of things; to share--those conversations on sex in the past often turned into me convincing her on the merits of relationships other than sex. So I would usually JADE into generally defending the merits of a relationship. Getting drawn into this frequent circular discussion can be a distraction, which can be a 'manipulation'. pwBPDs often do many things to distract their partner from the hidden 'rotten' or 'empty' (perceived) hole.

To put it clearer, for the non to be kept entangled away from assessing the quality of the relationship and what can be done to 'improve' it, that can be seen as a manipulation. So this also shows the good thing for those who have the time away from the relationship is that they have the space to go and figure these things out for themselves.

Moreover to support your discussion on the consciousness of sex as a tool, I think your experience is consistent with the popular idea that pwBPDs use their sexuality as their strongest 'asset' when it comes to triangulating caretakers. Whether the given behaviour is conscious/unconscious depends on the individual, and then there's that pressure from the disorder conditions to tend toward commoditising their sexuality.

In your case it seems it was used to protect against her emotional involvement, and to move you toward outcomes that are beneficial for her--e.g., moving out faster.

I think it's important not to be distracted by the gravity of the black hole--and its attendant issues--to recall that we are separate entities and lighthouses. There's nothing 'wrong' with us here, consensual sex involves 2 parties, and that's in spite of whatever feedback the BPD is showing at the time. I think that might help juju2   

[Forearmed]

Manipulation, perhaps.  He couldnt finish w me, and that made me doubt my attractiveness, sexually, what was wrong with me, never happened to me before.   Idk.
we had a lot of chemistry.  I dont understand.

juju - His problem... clearly not yours : )

[Forearmed]

Moreover to support your discussion on the consciousness of sex as a tool, I think your experience is consistent with the popular idea that pwBPDs use their sexuality as their strongest 'asset' when it comes to triangulating caretakers. Whether the given behaviour is conscious/unconscious depends on the individual, and then there's that pressure from the disorder conditions to tend toward commoditising their sexuality.

In your case it seems it was used to protect against her emotional involvement, and to move you toward outcomes that are beneficial for her--e.g., moving out faster.

gotbushels,

What a great first paragraph above! : )  

[Wicker Man]

... .the popular idea that pwBPDs use their sexuality as their strongest 'asset' when it comes to triangulating caretakers.

I would offer caution with generalizations and 'popular' ideas --the internet is rife with it. 

Borderline Personality disorder, from my reading, seems to, at times, touch lightly on nearly all of the personality disorders.  In reading Jacques Lacan of late it seems he  didn't to see 'BPD' as a particularly useful diagnosis.

"Jacques Lacan, whose “return to Freud” has dominated psychoanalysis in France, much of Europe and South America, specifically rejected the borderline concept, tacitly denying that there are borderline patients, holding that it is the analyst who is on the “border” in his understanding of a difficult case." --excerpt from Borderline Personality Disorder: A Lacanian Perspective

My point being we are all coping with or recovering from relationships with people suffering from BPD -however these are all individuals and as individuals their symptoms and behaviors will present differently.  There are, of course, going to be similarities -but we should attempt to rise above blanket statements and generalization. 

As a point of fact in my relationship there was sexual parity.  Early on she seemed to make a 'bid for power' sexually and I responded by saying we can be intimate when we are both in the mood -feel no pressure from me.  The conversation continued with her saying 'This is the first relationship where sex doesn't feel like an obligation'... .  I answered 'I am glad I don't feel like it is an obligation for me either'. 

I had no interest in objectifying her -she had had a life time of it.  Had I pushed her then, perhaps, I would have allowed or even created a situation where sex could have been used as a tool for manipulation. 

This has been the case in every one of my past relationships.  It is simple economics --supply and demand.  This is particularly exacerbated when one of the people in the relationship suffers from low self-esteem.

In retrospect I believe I had inadvertently created a boundary and through this boundary we formed a healthy and tender intimacy which she claimed was unique for her.

Had she used sex as a lever in the past? -likely.  Will she in the future?  Also likely -but during our relationship she did not.

In full disclosure my therapist takes a Lacanian Perspective and is currently treating several patients suffering from BPD.


Wicker Man

[Skip]

I think we have to be careful not to become "flat-earthers" (i.e., the earth is flat). The flat earthers couldn't get to a higher plan of thinking than what they saw and experienced. This is why it is helpful to read and discuss the psychology and try to see our experiences within those constructs.

Experts will tell us that pwBPD are far less manipulative that many of us believe (not saying they never manipulate). Just because we feel manipulated doesn't mean we were manipulated. And researchers will tell us the pwBPD traits are impulsive and lack executive function. They are generally not plotting elaborate schemes - they are mostly reacting.

I'm going to challenge this whole premise on a premise that your ex had deep emotions, was impulsive, and idealized you in the beginning of the relationship. I'd also assume that she has the same chemistry as others women and enjoys good sex (as defined by women).

If this was the case, it would explain the intense sexuality in the beginning. It would also suggest that as time went on, the sex was not as rewarding to her. In the beginning there was fantasy and dreaming and you had a clean slate. As time went on, the conflicting emotions and emotional flows and rolling trust issues brought complexity to the sexual intimacy.

Ask a sociologist. Sexual desire in women is extremely sensitive to environment and context. Men's sex drives are not only stronger than women's, but much more straightforward/uncomplicated.

What is uniquely sexual in people with BPD traits? Maybe we should start there.

One thing that I would contribute to the list:

1. Many (not all) are unusually uninhibited at the beginning. Like their emotions, they go for the full experience.

What else?

[Wicker Man]

I think we have to be careful not to become "flat-earthers"

Well said Skip

This was the point I was hoping to articulate —With generalization comes the danger of close mindedness. 

As a personal example my therapist asked how my sexual relationship was with my undiagnosed borderline.  I asked if his question was pedantic —he said no and explained  in some cases of childhood sexual abuse people suffering from the disorder are not hyper sexual. 



Wicker Man

[Cromwell]

In my case, id say at times yes, mostly no.

When she felt that I was going to leave, or became distant, or unhappy with her I would get it and it felt as if she picked up on those cues.

So there was an element of control, after the honeymoon period the emotional intensity was absent, it did return in those times where she felt I was the only good person in the world again. I dont see that as manipulation, more to do with her mood and emotional mindset.

manipulation and control did come into play when she saw me as a sure thing in her life, ie, that i stayed with her despite all the increasing boundary pushing. She said herself "I like my man whipped", you get woman like that, regardless of BPD, but when she said that it was after being nice to her for the day, which I did every day, which i will generalise and say guys "should" do for women, in my opinion. Yet in her mind she converted love/romance into some slave like configuration. but on the other hand, where I get confused slightly, I enjoyed this submissive role even though its not what i wanted from the start, maybe she just based her personality around what I wanted. Its not really a manipulation, just a super-heightened observation of both the emotional and sexual wants of the partner.

WIth regards to manipulation in general, my ex could herself be easily manipulated by other people, I could see it, she couldnt (initially). My ex was taken advantage of historically, repeatedly and I think if she did practice manipulation it was her way of normalising what had happened to her. Her circuitry would light up, depression would lift, when she would tell me with glee how she lied to her doctor for instance, or when she lied to other people and regarded them as gullible. Other people being those who were genuinely concerned for her. it was the classic abused becomes abuser.

Generalisation is important, ive picked up enough on my time on these boards to have the equivalent of a pilots pre-flight checklist before takeoff but related to dating. Im results orientated on this board not process orientated, if that means a broader brush to prevent someone falling into complete calamity like I have, so be it, it is better to err on that side of caution. The minute I hear "ive got BPD" im not going to continue on the basis of "they are not all the same as my ex".

As a side not, I would think it would be amazing to have a dating site for pwBPD, id just date for that honeymoon period then split up and keep dating forever. Forearmed, that emotional intensity was matched by the sexual intensity, but lets face it, it isnt normal and probably wasnt healthy either.

[once removed]

if good sex is a manipulation tool, whats the antidote? do we avoid good sex? is good sex a red flag?

does it have anything to do with the emphasis and importance we place on the sex? are we able to see outside of it, in terms of what makes a healthy bond and relationship, and the stuff that breaks relationships down, regardless of how the sex is?

[Husband321]

As a point of fact in my relationship there was sexual parity.  Early on she seemed to make a 'bid for power' sexually and I responded by saying we can be intimate when we are both in the mood -feel no pressure from me.  The conversation continued with her saying 'This is the first relationship where sex doesn't feel like an obligation'... . I answered 'I am glad I don't feel like it is an obligation for me either'.  

As an example, are even quotes like the above manipulation? Or they simply feel like that in the moment.

When they say things like "I always felt obligated... .I never made love before you... .you are the best ever... .I was always an obect", it does have an effect on the partner.  He either gets further sucked into thinking they have the most amazing connection, or he also feels sorry for her and wants to show her even more how amazing life can be.

I am sure sex did feel like an obligation for her in the past.  The cycle probably went

A. Infatuation mode. Sex constantly.

B. Some trigger.

C. Little to no sex

D. Guy still wanting sex as he became used to all the amazing sex. She still will occasionally but feels obligated.  

its hard to label all BPD as the same.  Many are also sociopaths, bi polar, narcisstic, histrionic etc.  It not an exact science.

[gotbushels]

As time went on, the conflicting emotions and emotional flows and rolling trust issues brought complexity to the sexual intimacy.

Thanks Skip. I think this is really good for us to recognise. I appreciate the perspective of how the sexuality may have developed (or receded) over time; and the connection to increasing emotional issues and trust.

From there I think sexual desire receding over time could happen for anyone, pwBPD or non.