Deciding... if 'they' change, how long does it last... includes infidelity...

[WifeofBPDhusband]

Ok... .

So I'll try to cut the long discovery of BPD behaviour saga down to a quick background story.  Lots of history with H on BPD (however I was none the wise, didn't even know such a thing existed - sadly... .) now that I'm looking back at 10 years of history together.  Married now for 3 1/2 years I can see it and apparently he can too.  He's been terribly unhappy, dissatisfied, I can never make him happy, he can never snap out of "his moods"... .we thought it was just normal depression... .then bam! nope! Cheating on me - at least via emails and texts with 2 different women (apparently nothing happened in real life... .not sure on that one now!)  So my world falls apart, I'm crushed, sad, crying for like a week, feel sick... .we talk 'somewhat' and I try to ask is there anything else I should know about.  Of course he says no - he had just gone into major victim mode with the shutdown factor and unable to discuss anything of importance.

Womens intuition or whatever, I check his phone again and there's a new number showing up.  I call it - nothing... .of course I'm in super suspicious mode, why the hell wouldn't I be given the other 2 women with emails/texts.  No answer at the number, but randomly I put it into google... .it comes back as a "massage" person that is listed in the personals section of the local paper.  What are the chances the number would pop up in google - thank God for the google gods and how it has helped me see clearly, otherwise I don't think I would have gotten a straight answer.

So, again I query him and get some real answers.  Massage only (do I really believe this or what?) but could have been sex had he wanted it.  She went to do 'other stuff' and he turned that down... .do I really believe this or what?  I was devastated, altho who knows why as I'd only just discovered the other infidelity so in reality it probably shouldn't have been that shocking!  The reason I found out was that he'd been there like 3 weeks before and had tried to call again on the Friday for another appt - well excuse me if I'm being naive but if there was nothing to it then why the need to call again and just what on earth would have happened on that visit or the next or the next or the next... .

I can't really believe that he told me the details - where it was, when he went, etc etc. as I thought he'd clam up as usual.  So now - he's been busted - 3 times within as many weeks.  He's at the counsellors tonight (his regular counsellor) and he has an appt with a psych who deals in BPD that I'm attending with him on Thursday a.m. - I'm attending mainly so that the bloomin' story gets told straight.  He's been in counselling before and I believe he spins whatever tale of woe he wants to and tells them whatever they want to hear and then not-so-surprisingly he stops going cos he's "better" (read as - it all got far too hard... .)  I don't know that I'm committed to continuing to go to his appts as I don't know what my plans are.

I do know that I've made the first hard steps in making an appt to see a family law specialist for advice on separating and also the mortgage broker so that I can assess my finances if I were to decide to keep the house we have.  That is going to be rough.  H doesn't know I've made those appts.  I'm trying to have self-care but it's hard - my emotions are all over the place.

Anyway... .so that is the short version of the hell that is my life over the past 3 weeks.  What I want to know is this - if BPD peeps are truly going to do the work and face their BPD how long does that last?  I realise everyone is different but I'd love to hear anyone's stories - good or bad on whether the partner does/has changed at all.  Also, any stories on infidelity and how you handled your own situation?

Before the last instance with the massage place I really thought I might be able to stay given that it appeared it was only emails/texts and he said there was nothing else - but how long til it all turned into more in real life or there were other emails/text.  Upon hearing about the massage incident and the ugly details (& still really not knowing if it was the truth or not) I believe that is one of my unbreakable boundaries that I will not allow to be crossed - this time or ever again by him or anyone else.  If you are in a marriage, regardless of your mental issues/health, my value is that you do not stray outside of the marriage relationship - no matter how whacked up your brain/feelings might be from BPD.   Before you crucify me, I do realise that comment is coming from a non but I've only just realised it's one of my lines in the sand and altho it is really hard - I think I'm kinda proud of myself for standing up for this one small value that I hold.

Thanks in advance for your comments/thoughts.  I'm struggling thru the mire that is the aftermath of living with an undiagnosed BPD husband.  I am not sure where I'll land but it's nice to know there are others who understand.

[cartman1]

Hi,

I understand the infidelity thing, this is a massive issue for me too. Up until recently I thought I had massive insecurity issues regarding this.

When I first met my wife she used to plan nights out with the girls behind my back used to get signals and messages and would find out that she was planning these things behind my, I turned up a couple of times and found her getting ready to go out although it was never mentioned which made me really insecure. I used to beg her to stay in because I couldn't understand why she had planned to go out behind my back, why get dolled up and want to go out without me? this was the issue that I couldn't understand. Another thing I found out from a close friend was he stayed there and said that my wife, at the time girlfriend of a few months had been talking dirty on the phone to a guy in her bedroom. She dismissed this as having a laugh although I suspect it was more than that.

Then we had kids and she was a stay at home mum for a few years until one day she started work. She started going out on night out with her mates and the where a few red flags. One night her friend came to mine when the were going on a works night out and said it was for partners too and that I should come, my wife instantly started to talk me out of it, saying we could go out together another night, weird.

Anyway this one night she went out and disappeared. When I got up in the morning she wasn't home I called everyone I could think of. Went round places and stuff. She turned up at lunchtime, there was a few inconsistency between what I'd been told by people and what she told me. Then later that day I decided to check her facebook page and she had added a guy from the night before and the had been flirting on facebook. He came online and I pretended to be my wife and we started chatting for a while then he stopped responding, my wife's phone rang and she spoke to someone. When she finished I asked who was on the phone, she said her friend so I asked to see the call log. She'd deleted it, I asked her to call her friend back and prove it was her but she wouldn't. I know it was this guy but she will never admit it. Just keeps telling me I'm massively insecure. But there are real signals trust me, I googled how to work out a cheat and she scored points on the whole checklist. But apparently that's all in my head.

Can I ask, does your Husband seem to have a life outside of the house that he seems to hide from you? Where you get snippets of information and try to build a picture but they just shut down and go ultra secretive? I only ask as I'm interested if you are in the same situation as me, seeing things only to be told your wrong?   

[WifeofBPDhusband]

Hi

Thanks for your reply, I'm sorry that you are in your situation - sounds tough.  I often feel like I'm going crazy and it is just me thinking all these things.  Especially when I found the emails/texts - I was initially VERY shocked (especially to see the disgusting things that he was saying to another woman) and then after a few days of him being ultra sorry (sorry that he was caught or truly sorry that he did it in the first place?) and telling me he loves me blah blah blah AND being all lovey-dovey with me then I thought perhaps it was magnified in my head and it wasn't as bad as I first thought.  WRONG!  Typical BPD behaviour hey, the withdrawal, the issue(s), the confrontation (which he always avoids) and then the chase is back on for him to "get" me back... .*sigh* When I found out about the last massage place well then I truly got it - that's just wrong and not acceptable for me.

It's not just you - it's their behaviour and unfortunately from all I've read (altho I'm not an expert just starting out on this road) they can't see it as wrong.  You are right in that if you ask then it's all in your head, you've made it up, you've made it worse than it seems and you can't get straight answers.

H went to his counsellor last night - the one he's been seeing since Feb this year - and she tells him he doesn't have BPD as he's not presenting as someone who wants to be rescued.  What the?  I was furious when he told me that and that was basically the ONLY thing that he would tell me from the whole 1 hr appt - like 8 words.  So I try to have a normal, reasonable conversation about it and he shuts down and then when I say well I've got nothing to go on here - I've been operating on no help now for 3 weeks since it all happened and you haven't done anything & I've been waiting for you to see your counsellor or a psych or something and then comes his anger.  He snaps and gets angry and says - you never listen to me, I don't want to talk about it.  Yeah - typical - he never wants to talk about it and if he had his way we'd never go back to that hard discussion.  What I was trying to ask him was, if his counsellor thought he did not have BPD then what was the suspected reason behind all his issues and his recent sexual indiscretions.  He couldn't/wouldn't answer that. God knows how the next other pysch appt will go on Thurs now... .I am not looking forward to going.

Your question of if he has a life outside of home and if I get snippets of it... .I would have to say yes.  I believe H has given me a brief glimpse into what he wants me to know regarding work etc. and that story is almost always that he's the victim, nothing is going right and it's all ___.  I think he operates on this level to try to get me to mother him, make him feel better... .blah blah blah.  I'm not buying into it anymore and I can see that he's flailing trying to figure out where to go for that 'support'.  A normal partner could give that kind of support to a spouse and also expect to get the same in return.  That appears to be very limited with a BPD spouse.  What I also found out was that he has given 3 different stories to these people that he's cheated with.  The first 2 were random bizarre stories including that he gave his middle name instead of his real first name and he was portraying that he was single and that he worked away from home and was only here 1 week in 3.  Bizarre behaviour - why the double life, why the lies... .So, not only am I only getting snippets he's also living some weird double life in his head and obviously at some level getting some sort out payoff from that (or kicks or sexual excitement or control factor or ?) and he has thought it was completely acceptable.

I'm at a loss right now and soo tired.

[artman.1]

Wife, and colley,

     I have been married for 44 years to my UBPDW.  A long time ago, she filed for a Divorce because her younger Sister was getting a divorce, and was clubbing around at a local dance club.  We had three sons, 3, 4, & 5 years old.  I followed her one night and discovered where she was going, and came back at about midnight.  Our car was parked in a dark corner of the gravel/dirt lot next to the club, and I drove quietly in and stopped.  They couldn't see me but I could see her and her Boy friend in the car going at it.  We were still married, and she had just started all the divorce idea.  Well, I then saw why.  I got a very senior lawyer and counter filed after she filed against me.  We were still living in the same home.  Well, she had a party while I was working for a weekend out of town as I was forced to work.  When I got home earlier than expected, I found the women sleeping it off and our sterio equipment had been stolen from our home.  This got her attention.  I forced her to go to marriage counceling with me in court, and she was scared by the MC when he explained how she would wind up on welfare with little support from me after the divorce.  She would have to work and have the kids in child care.  Her Sister got her DV, and got very little with nowhere to live, so my UBPDW asked me if her Sis could live with us until she could get on her feet.  Even though her Sis started all this crap, I allowed her to stay because I knew they couldn't get along for long.  I was right.  My UBPDW wanted to reconcile and we did, so I moved us 1500 miles North.  This stopped outside interferance with our lives.  Her Sister kept messing around at the NightClub and later wound up with AIDS.  This was 38 years ago and her Sister still is suffering from the AIDS Virus.

     To this day, she does not know about what I saw going on in our car with her Boy Friend.  I saw no reason to drive in the pain that I have gone through.  Our children are now raised and grown with families of their own.  Her BPD has worstened since she had three Brain surgeries.  I have discovered she is BPD nearly two years ago, and I am Codependent.  I have been working on myself ever since, and Nearing retirement next year, I am planning to eliminate a BPD from my life.  She has done all the things BPDs do, and cannot love anyone, not even herself.  I have discovered that I have no power over others and cannot force anyone to get help they refus.  I am not even going to try as it just will not work.  She is in total denial, so it would be useless to try and would just hurt her more.  The best thing for me is to protect myself and eliminate the pain from my life.  Even if I must give her half, I can still work and make good money, since I am a Professional Licensed Engineer having two Engineering Degrees and an Electricians License.  Not to bad for an old Vietnam Vet.  I hope things work out for you, but they will just not admit to something they must be responsible for.  As you study the behaviors of BPDs you will find they cannot help many of these behaviors and you must choose how you are going to deal with your own feelings about it.  Treatment with DBT for a BPD is not guaranteed to work, and if the BPD individual is not fully serious and committed, it just won't work.  This usually takes from two to eight years from various sources I have read.  You will have to look into this for yourself.  Really it boils down to the BPD person realizing it is ruining his life and must commit.  He must do it for himself, and not for anyone else or failure is assured.  You must accept that you have no power over others, and cannot control this in any way.  If someone is determined to cheat, you simply cannot stop them.

Art

[WifeofBPDhusband]

Art! 

Thank you so much for your reply and I am so sorry that you had to endure that hurt years ago by seeing her activity in that car.  For me to hear about what my H was up to/see emails/texts is one thing but to see in real life - I'm sorry.  You are an amazing man to have stayed for as long as you have.  I applaud you for working on you and your stuff and making a decision and a plan.  I appreciate your words regarding not being able to control anyone - that is where I have landed.  I have realised that and I need space.  I think I'm making a plan to live on my own which has scared me but in reality if he was willing to do this kind of behaviour while at home it will make no difference if he is living apart from me.  I had been fearful of if I was out of the picture then it would be a free for all for him with whomever/whatever but if I couldn't control it here then I can't control it if we're apart either and anyway it's not my place to.  It's my place to honour my values, make my boundaries and stick to them - well that's what I'm thinking this week at least... .it's a roller coaster ride that's for sure.  My gut just tells me that once 'bitten' by the excitement of the cheating factor no matter how little that may be (no physical, just emails or i-net or whatever) it's a hook for the BPD person that won't go away easily.

I had a dear friend who said to me that God wouldn't want me to be hurt again and that I needed to look after myself in all of this.  True words.  Hard to act on but true.  I can see codependent behaviours on my part that I will be seriously working on/thru with professional help.  It's a journey and I don't expect it to be over anytime soon.  Funny how he appears serious now but I question just how long that can last and I cannot set myself up for disappointment/failure again.  It's far too painful.  Besides how do I live in that questioning lifestyle wondering when it's all going to crash again and wondering what he's up to etc.  I don't like myself when I'm the suspicious person but unfortunately past experience with H has taught me to be wary.

You do have talents - being an engineer and having your elec trade is awesome and being a veteran too - I commend you!  You sound like you're being pretty strong right now which is obviously a tribute to your inner strength, the perseverance you've had, your values and who you have become due to what you have experienced.

Thank you for sharing your personal experience with me.

[almost789]

Ok... .


Anyway... .so that is the short version of the hell that is my life over the past 3 weeks.  What I want to know is this - if BPD peeps are truly going to do the work and face their BPD how long does that last? 

Sounds like he has a sex addiction. The few pieces you have found and/or he has admitted to you is likely only a very small part of this secret life he has. Sex addiction is an intimacy disorder very common to BPD. Addiction is a symptom of the disorder. Some get addicted to drugs/alcohol, some sex/porn or other obsessions. They use this stuff to regulate their emotions and escape. It has nothing to do with you! It will not be corrected until the underlying intimacy disorder/BPD is fixed. So, don't expect any lasting changes until he gets therapy for the BPD and/or intimacy disorder.

[almost789]

Ok... .


Anyway... .so that is the short version of the hell that is my life over the past 3 weeks.  What I want to know is this - if BPD peeps are truly going to do the work and face their BPD how long does that last? 



Sounds like he has a sex addiction. The few pieces you have found and/or he has admitted to you is likely only a very small part of this secret life he has. Sex addiction is an intimacy disorder very common to BPD. Addiction is a symptom of the disorder. Some get addicted to drugs/alcohol, some sex/porn or other obsessions. They use this stuff to regulate their emotions and escape. It has nothing to do with you! It will not be corrected until the underlying intimacy disorder/BPD is fixed. So, don't expect any lasting changes until he gets therapy for the BPD and/or intimacy disorder.

[almost789]

Sorry for the double posts... .I thought you could modify these posts, but I don't see any modify button.

anyway... .this was my post to your question:

Sounds like he has a sex addiction. The few pieces you have found and/or he has admitted to you is likely only a very small part of this secret life he has. Sex addiction is an intimacy disorder very common to BPD. Addiction is a symptom of the disorder. Some get addicted to drugs/alcohol, some sex/porn or other obsessions. They use this stuff to regulate their emotions and escape. It has nothing to do with you! It will not be corrected until the underlying intimacy disorder/BPD is fixed. So, don't expect any lasting changes until he gets therapy for the BPD and/or intimacy disorder.

[Validation78]

Hi Wife!

Your story is not unlike many who find themselves with a BPD partner. Behaviors vary from one pwBPD to another, unfortunately, infidelity is all too common with and without BPD! What to do about the behaviors is a very personal decision and very different for each of us. What we encourage people to do here is take care of themselves, whether you stay in the relationship or not, always take care of yourself. If you are staying, even if in the short term, there are many things that you can do to improve matters. This site is filled with a wealth of information on BPD and of course, support. My suggestion is to start with Stop the Bleeding to the right, as well as the others below it. Then move on to the staying board and read through The Lessons. You'll begin with understanding more about BPD and learning the communication tools that will help you to improve things at home. You'll also discover what you are doing to contribute to the dysfunction. The best part is, you don't need H's cooperation for any of this. All of the tools are for you, and you can control the situation. It's not a cure, it's a way to make things more manageable short or long term. We do this because we of course cannot control the behaviors of another. If H wants help, he must seek it on his own, you can't get him to do it. BPD is "curable" with very specific types of T called Schema and DBT (amongst others), however, it takes a long time, and your H has to be a willing participant! In the meantime, try taking a look at the places I have suggested, and see if there's anything you can do! Hang in there, it's tough, I know!  

Best Wishes,

Val78

[real lady]

Hi Wife.

Your story is not unlike many who find themselves with a BPD partner. Behaviors vary from one pwBPD to another, unfortunately, infidelity is all too common with and without BPD. What to do about the behaviors is a very personal decision and very different for each of us. What we encourage people to do here is take care of themselves, whether you stay in the relationship or not, always take care of yourself.

Hi Wife... .Val has pointed to BPD.com's wonderful resources and I couldn't agree more that we need to educate ourselves and keep learning about how BPD affects our loved one as well as how WE can survive through their illness whether we stay or not. Taking care of ourselves is foreign to some of us but we can do it.

You'll also discover what you are doing to contribute to the dysfunction. The best part is, you don't need H's cooperation for any of this.

I have learned that I can AVOID alot of unnecessary dysregulation by NOT asking questions or "questioning" what he has said; even the most simple or innocent question as I did not hear what you said. I have learned to respond so that he does not get a whiff that I have missed a word that he has said; even if I missed a whole line of BS that I have already heard. I validate his emotion, usually anger, rage or frustration and say... .I feel the same way, you articulate how you feel well and seem to really understand the situation". We can learn SO MUCH here about ourselves as well as our uBPDh's as I have in the past year... .

b]If H wants help, he must seek it on his own, you can't get him to do it. BPD is "curable" with very specific types of T called Schema and DBT (amongst others), however, it takes a long time, and your H has to be a willing participant. Val78

I learned the concept of "radical acceptance" and have even shared it with him. Though I love him, I ACCEPT

[real lady]

... (continued from last post; posted and I could not MODIFY it... .sorry.

the situation that both he and are IN. He REFUSES to get counseling but has mentioned that "I think that he is BPD" and of course, I am "wrong", "mentally ill" and plain "crazy" for thinking that... .of course there is "nothing wrong with him"... .

They will DENY and DISCOUNT their behavior and our concern and pain all day... .take care of yourself. Do the things FOR yourself that you would like to expect him to do, say things TO yourself that you would prefer that he say (affirmations) and THINK OUTSIDE the BPD box and find things that YOU enjoy; time with family, etc. We can't have a relationship with someone who is not willing... .take care... .

[Chihiro]

WifeofBPDH,

Take care of yourself first.  Get an STD check.  My BPDh also claimed he hadn't been physically unfaithful when this kind of behavior first started to come out, but he had been, a lot, for years, and what I first found out was just the tip of the iceberg.  Do not trust his word on this, even if he swears up and down on a stack of Bibles.  If he is afraid you are going to leave him, he will say whatever he thinks will stop that from happening.  If that means continuing to deceive you about his true activities, that is exactly what he will do.

This is a really hellish experience, one that I unfortunately share.  His behavior has nothing to do with you, even though it obviously affects you.  But remember it is not because of anything you did.  He will try to minimize, shift the blame onto you, gaslight, etc.  He will likely try every trick in the book to alleviate his guilt and make you share in it.  Don't fall for it! 

As for the long term, I think it is possible for some pwBPD to change.  It's been over 2 years since I first found out about my H's affairs/infidelities, and he's been in therapy since that time.  There's been a lot of progress, but it has been extremely hard.  I have had to deal with my own trauma (and still do) from discovering the man I thought had my back through thick and thin was actually sneaking around behind it.  There's a website called "Recovery Nation" that has a lot of good insight into the behaviors of sex addicts (and their partners) that I would recommend for both of you. 

Best of Luck. 

Chihiro

[BasketCase]

I have been through this exact stuff for years.

Discovered he had a double life, other girlfriends who he was also lying to.  I'd break it off, he'd win me back, over and over.  The cycle repeated many times.  Each time he promised it was the last he'd cheat and I believed him.  He was very convincing.  He even got therapy, has been in it now for 4 years (his therapist does not believe he has BPD).  He always did again.

This last time (after 8 years of this), I found love letters and of course he says they were not physical but from the letters it seemed they were.  Who knows what to believe.  I stayed with him.

Recently found out he was maintaining a friendship with 2 of the girls he had cheated on me with.  That, combined with his "throwing me out" of our apartment every 2 weeks, was the last straw.  I moved out.

That was 6 weeks ago and I'm second guessing it.  It's very hard.

He also was engaging in the random sex thing I believe - I found email answers to casual sex Craigs List ads.  And our sex life for the last 4 years was horrible for the most part.  He couldn't have "normal" sex, and then it dwindled down to nothing.  It was amazing at the beginning of our relationship.

[WifeofBPDhusband]

Oh boy BasketCase - you describe my sex life exactly!  Best sex ever at the start (which I have learned from these boards is common) and then bam! in the committed, long term relationship - nothing!  We even got married (more fool me!) after about 8 months of non-intimacy.  I wondered at the time where my sexy partner had gone, he was stressed at work and ended up on anti-depressants - thought it was ALL related to that!  How wrong was I?

We have been in counselling since Feb 2012 to work out our issues - started cos I found texts on his work phone to some random chick!  Argh!  I kicked his ar*se out of the house then, should have kept him out - took him back in - more fool me again!  The counsellor had been trying to work on the intimacy issues between us - she had no idea he was BPD (I've only figured that out in October this year) and now that I can look back I know the intimacy issues would never have fixed themselves up.  We would never have a normal, healthy sex life again.  Idiot!  All the while that I was working on it and thinking 'oh we're getting somewhere' he was off doing his i-net cheating or real life stuff (who knows!) or whatever.  It was a big lesson for me to learn and that's when I knew my own values, made a line in the sand and said this is a boundary I will not accept being broken.  He did - again, 3 more times that I found out about and so it's over.  I'm not undecided anymore and I've moved over to the leaving board.  It's a great relief having made the decision.  Now I just have to navigate the leaving part.  That's tricky.

I just had to write back that I am amazed how similar the stories are around the sex life part of things.  It's been crap since we got married 3.5yrs ago - was like he couldn't even stand to touch me after such passion in the beginning.  I even wondered and questioned him out loud if he was bi-sexual or gay since there was such problems.  I put a lot of his waning libido up to anti-depressants but as I said it was waaaay more than that.  The only time he could be bothered or seemed interested was after a splitting episode from him as he was then on the chase with me again.  I had had enough of putting up with zero sex and zero intimacy - I wanted to be cherished, treasured, touched, loved, connected sexually and intimately emotionally.  I guess, now, I can look at it all and be grateful I figured it out now and am doing something about it.  Best of luck to you BasketCase!  Don't second guess yourself - you are doing the right thing - stay NC if you can!

[BasketCase]

Jeez - you describe the sex situation exactly.  Mine was on painkillers and he blamed that and depression when I questioned him.  Several times I told him I suspected he was cheating again because he must be getting it somewhere, right?  I tried everything.  He was just uninterested and angry when I would come on to him.  Occasionally he would agree to have sex - but only if I did everything.  He just laid there - it was like he was putting on a show of boredom just to hurt me.  So cruel!  I eventually gave up.

And, just as you describe, I would occasionally get GREAT sex from him only after a huge fight, and he was trying to win me back emotionally.

Oh yeah, once he even blamed my "smell" for not wanting to have sex with me.  He said I smelled bad for 2 years and how could I expect him to want to have sex with me when I smelled bad?  While I was quietly reeling from that statement, (making sure to not say anything so as to start a fight), he PICKED a fight with me saying it was my fault I smelled, how could I get angry with him for pointing it out?  I said I wasn't angry, I just needed a minute to myself and could he please leave me alone?  He then proceeded to put on some comedy show on tv and wanted to laugh together like a child as if nothing had happened.  SO INSANE!

Just a sidenote here, which will sound conceited but it drives the point home - I am a drop dead gorgeous young woman!  I get constant attention from men, except the only man I cared about - my boyfriend!  I used to lay awake at night googling "My husband won't have sex with me."  I have a totally open mind and was willing to try anything sexually he threw at me over the years.  And I certainly don't smell!

Anyway, your original question - do they ever change?  Mine didn't.  But he wasn't getting the correct therapy for his BPD.  Anyone know if they change with the correct therapy?