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Author Topic: What to do when I am not allowed a "time out"  (Read 1412 times)
sunshine40

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« on: January 02, 2013, 12:59:45 PM »

Hello All.

Since I first discovered this awesome place, I have been learning a lot. All the acronymns, books to use (I just picked up SWOE from the library and "safely" bought The High Conflict Couple, which just arrived at the bookstore ) and things I could do to "stop the bleeding."

However, one of the MOST difficult aspects of my relationship with my uBPDh is that when we are in a "discussion" everything will spin over and over like a gerble in its wheel and he will NOT let me take a breather if I feel myself starting to become overly angry. I cannot leave the house. Some times I am physically blocked from leaving the room (with him there). If he is making an effort to let me cool off, he cannot leave me alone for more than five minutes before he gets into it again.

He says, "when you are left alone, you cool off... .  I fester... "

My T has told me he needs to find ways to soothe himself... .  but he cannot figure out what that may be when he is deregulated... he justs get angier and angrier and then he pushes me until I am there as well.

I would just like to be able to step away and calm down so I can talk to him like an adult ( a calm adult).

Any advice?

-Sunhine
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yeeter
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« Reply #1 on: January 02, 2013, 01:24:54 PM »

Keep at it sunshine!

Your T is right on the money.

Take the time out by physically removing yourself.  He is blocking you because he is still wanting YOU to resolve HIS deregulation - but this is destructive to you.

If he physically blocks you ask politely to let you through.  Then if he doesnt, call 911.  Nobody is allowed to physically constrain another person.

Some people are able to retreat to a room with a locked door.  Preferably out of earshot (no need to listen to the ravings of a mad man).

You have a fundamental right to give yourself space.  And knowing that sticking around to listen to it will just get you deregulated and angry as well - a responsibility to take this time out.

Very difficult and scary to do.

 
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briefcase
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« Reply #2 on: January 02, 2013, 04:52:31 PM »

Also, be proactive.  When you start to see which way the wind is blowing, take shelter before the storm arrives.  Take your time out at the first sign of dysregulation, don't wait for it to be clearly over the line.  Maybe acting sooner will help you get out before it gets to the point where he won't let you go. 

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tryingtogetit
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« Reply #3 on: January 02, 2013, 05:10:09 PM »

sunshine, like you a tried to follow the advise given in the books and on the board: removind myself.

This enraged my pwBPD only more also playing the guilt-card. Walking out was the worst thing I could do to a person with that history etc... .  

"

Now, even though some might say I'm giving in, what helps is saying: "I walk away because I need to clear my head."

Not because my partner needs to calm down or stop abusing me. But I say it's because I might say something I don't mean anyway.

It also helps to say I want to come back at it later, so I'm not ending the discussion (which they might regard a loss of power or slap in the face). I might even give a indication when I'll get back to it.

What also helped for me is reading about discussion technique (Stop arguing, start talking) and also anger managment to realize when I was getting upset/ unable to be constructive myself.

Good luck
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Seahorse1
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« Reply #4 on: January 02, 2013, 06:04:59 PM »

This was often a problem for me... .  

Some times I just knew he was not going to calm down... .  

Unfortunately I would feel no choice but to ask him to leave... .  

Of course my asking him to leave always heightened his dis regulation and he would take it as a break up... .  

I still think the best bet is one of you leaving the house for at least a short period if he will not allow you a time out... .  

I wish I had also made a point of discussing this type of thing when we are getting along... .  

I. E setting a boundary of saying that you have to give me space sometimes when you get upset... .  

I am missing my ex terribly, I had to kick him out the day after Christmas... .  

It seems so easy to give advice in retrospect but when you're in the midst of daily chaos and confusion its hard to keep track... .  

But that is what I would have done differently... .  

However, when his dis regulation was extreme I really don't think any thing would have worked besides slipping him a sleeping pill in his beer... .  

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NikiTea

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« Reply #5 on: January 02, 2013, 06:26:06 PM »

Make sure you CAN get out. Don't be afraid to call the police. Getting a public record might serve you both better. It's proof and you should never feel subjected to verbal abuse!

My udBP sister doesn't have obviously abandonment issues. She's never been abandoned and has had an easy life. But when she's in a bad rage she sometimes NEEDS to yell at my mother. She's raced after the car in top speed on several occasions as a teen and even now sometimes... .  like a maniac who is chasing down a car. As a kid, she ran through a glass window when my mother was trying to escape her rage by going for a walk.
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CodependentHusband
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« Reply #6 on: January 02, 2013, 07:33:07 PM »

Good point here already, but I will stress the effectiveness of making yourself scare at the very first signs of dysregulation. It's harder to spot at first, and we find ourselves in full-blown situations before we know it. When I first notice that my wife is in the least irritable mood, I keep myself busy in another part of the house and wait for her to approach me. If she approaches me with a negative attitude, I go to another room calmly. If that doesn't work, I tell her that I am going to the gym/book store/etc. I usually don't say why I do this to her because she will see it as her 'fault' that I am leaving. This will likely result in an extinction burst at some point, but will improve after he sees how consistent you are.
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Oneneatguy
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« Reply #7 on: January 02, 2013, 07:54:25 PM »



I suggest you consult with a counsellor or therapist before involving the police.  If you are in physical danger or feel at risk of course you should call.

However if you escalate the situation, it could make the situation worse.  I don't know about others but I always found arguing with my BPD ex was like a game of poker.  The higher the ante got the more entrenched she became.  If I increased the ante by calling the police things would have gotten worse in a hurry.

I have to say that this is a really difficult question, as I was never able to find the answer.  I tried leaving the room, saying that I would prefer to discuss the matter at a later time so I can think about it.

I was labelled with having poor communication skills and being avoidant, when I really just wanted time to consider what she was saying.

It also made a difference what she wanted to discuss.  If she was in a devaluation mood and it had to do with my behaviour it was relentless and I could not defer the conversation without enraging her.

Many a morning I would wake up and say good morning, only to hear a litany of complaints about my shortcomings that would go on regardless of what I did.

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CodependentHusband
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« Reply #8 on: January 02, 2013, 07:58:49 PM »

I was labelled with having poor communication skills and being avoidant, when I really just wanted time to consider what she was saying.

It also made a difference what she wanted to discuss.  If she was in a devaluation mood and it had to do with my behaviour it was relentless and I could not defer the conversation without enraging her.

Many a morning I would wake up and say good morning, only to hear a litany of complaints about my shortcomings that would go on regardless of what I did.

Yep... .  be ready for this. I'd bet money it will happen to you after you start disengaging when chaos strikes. The good news is that after being consistent for a while, he will realize that berating you for disengaging isn't getting the desired effect, he will quit doing that and, ironically, will most likely start to feel more secure because you begin to behave in a more stable way.
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Chosen
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« Reply #9 on: January 02, 2013, 08:02:46 PM »

What I'm suggesting here may not be typical of other advice, so you will have to see if it suits you.

I have been in similar situations before when uBPDh would block me from leaving.  He wants me there, for him to rage on, anything, so he doesn't have to face himself.

If I forcefully try to leave it makes things worse.  His shouting would never end and he would try to endlessly guilt-trip me.  

So what I did was, I stayed, but I shut up and withdrew (be sure not to get passive-aggressive) unless he could talk to me calmly, when he stopped shouting.  Several times he got a bit physical but trying to hold my arm and I pushed him off and said "I am here, I am not leaving so please put your hand down."  If he refuses then the issue he wanted to talk about would not be addressed.  I think the key to this is that you talk calmly and NOT raise your voice, so he doesn't need to have the "flight or fight" mentality, and won't perceive you're attacking him.

For the last time I did it, it worked for me.  Of course, if you're in real danger and feel like your H would physically harm you, then it may not work for you.  
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sunshine40

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« Reply #10 on: January 03, 2013, 01:50:09 PM »

Thank you for all your suggestions.

Since I really do not think he would ever physically harm me (we've been married 21 years without that issue), I do not feel the need to call the police. I honestly beleive that would be counter productive.

Chosen: I really like your suggestion. I need to withdraw within my brain if nothing else... .  I sometimes "go do something somewhere else" when he is grumpy, but not dysregulated, but he usually wanders wherever I am within 15 minutes anyway, sees what I am doing, and then asks me to join him... .  I simply want to cool off myself when I feel I am going to lose it. I know I can safely say that to him... .  he just cannot give it. He even admits to it. We've talked about it before. If my "happy place" in my brain is my only option, until he calms down, I'll take it.

I just don't like doing that, because he is SO persistent. He can wear right through it.

I guess the "I will calmly speak with you when you are calmly speaking" approach may be the best choice... .  and it works sometimes... just not all the time-

-sunshine40

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CodependentHusband
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« Reply #11 on: January 03, 2013, 04:02:09 PM »

The main thing I've noticed in my r/s, and has been reported by others, is that we are consistent in how we react or respond to the pwBPD. Most say it is best to at least the room when someone is raging. This is because when things have reached that point there will be no way to calm things down, and further damage is done to the relationship by what gets said. Hope you will find something you can apply in a practical way that helps you.
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tryingtogetit
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« Reply #12 on: January 03, 2013, 04:09:54 PM »

For me what really helped was my own state of mind.

If I stay dead calm, my partner can rage but it just won't stick. And that seems to undermine the reason for the raging. But I have to really be Zen like and totally reasonable.

It also has the effect that I really know I don't do anything wrong which gives me confidence. And then I can show understanding and set limits as a wise adult would

I think that gets picked up on and makes raging a waste of effort for them.

Because I don't buy that they can't help it, I do think they've learned it's a way to get things their way, keep control, gain power. Even though the underlying emotion might be something we can validate it's just bad behaviour. Not take the behaviour on ourselves.

And things have changed to an extent. There's no more breaking of things, throwing or slapping. Still name-calling though ;-)

But that really worked for me, learning how to stay dead calm no matter what. And funny enough, working on MY emotions helped with that. Doing anger management myself. It makes it pointless for my partner to rage and perhaps feel silly too.

It only goes wrong when I twitch just a little... .  

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waverider
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« Reply #13 on: January 03, 2013, 06:29:19 PM »

Look more into Extinction Bursts, do not underestimate these and andlong they can go for, nor how hard it is to tough it out. What you are doing her is your first new change. This means it is likely to be the hardest one to endure. He is not used to you being firm, and you are not used to handling it.

You will be frightened, but it will weather, and you feel much better. But it will not be easy. The trick as others have said is to take action BEFORE it gets totally out of hand and you become cornered. Also work out now exactly what you are going to do next time. Dont try winging it in the moment.
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Chosen
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« Reply #14 on: January 03, 2013, 07:29:45 PM »

The trick as others have said is to take action BEFORE it gets totally out of hand and you become cornered. Also work out now exactly what you are going to do next time. Dont try winging it in the moment.

Completely agree, waverider!  Doing the right thing (click to insert in post)

Even though it's hard work, I find it useful if I practise (inside my head) what I'm going to say when he gets mad the next time- the trick is to do it when he's calm and you're calm.  When he's already dysregulated, there's no point because your mind is fully occupied to cope with stuff that's happening at that moment.

Of course, we're only human, and sometimes we lose our temper too.  It's also important to see when things are really going to go downhill (have to know the "que" to it) so at that point you just stop trying to talk any sense into him or even trying to validate because he won't hear a thing.
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eeyore
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« Reply #15 on: January 04, 2013, 01:39:46 AM »

He says, "when you are left alone, you cool off... .  I fester... .  

-Sunshine

I call that behavior of constantly coming after you pestering.  He's bullying you to acquiesce.   The pattern is set that you allow him to keep pestering you.  So for 21 years that's all he knows. 


What is your response to this?  

Him:  when you are left alone, you cool off... .  I fester... .  

YOU: ?

Suggestion:    I can see that.  And the more you fester the less amenable I am to talking or being around you.  How would you like to solve that I am not capable of talking to you unless we are both calm.  

Him:  Bully some more

YOU: I am not capable of talking to you.  Sit quietly.  

I found  Saying I'm not capable then takes his feeling that I'm blaming him away.   I'll take fault for not being able to resolve a problem.  To  not argue I'll say I'll agree to disagree for now because I'm not capable of talking.  Would you like to talk about something else... .  shiny new object  discussion.  Crisis defused.
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« Reply #16 on: January 04, 2013, 05:06:48 AM »

Physically preventing you from leaving is domestic violence. It's important to talk to a domestic violence counselor.

Talking to a domestic violence counselor doesn't automatically mean leaving ... .  it means getting some expert local help with a potentially dangerous problem. 
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