A startling observation — which made me unsure about our future

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

I don't know whether to write this here on on the Staying board, but let's try this one for starters.

My uBPDh and I have been having a quite good time for the past couple of months. We actually learned how to get a bit better at solving our disagreements. We actually made some grown-up solutions and stuck to them (at least for a while). We were listening to each other and had fun.

Then came some stress, some bigger, scarier feelings, some worries and upsets. And whatdoyaknow, we sucked at talking about it again. A few days ago we had a giant fight and we really sunk down to childish levels, lower than even before (I swear, I even did the ol' fingers-in-the-ears-i'm-not-listening -trick. Yes, I am ashamed.) Afterwards something really dawned on me. We really do act like children. Not only when we disagree, but most all the time.

The longer I go to therapy, the more I notice how in my relationship I am seeking reassurance and some kind of ratification to the hurt I have been feelings since I've been a child. I have been looking at my husband to cure me, complete me, accept me in some deep way so that I will feel like a full-force human being. The longer we stay together, the clearer it gets that my husband has a deep feeling of not accepting himself. When he has big stresses, worries or disappointments his rant about hating it, being angry and frustrated ends with: "I hate myself. Nobody likes me. I'm a bad person." He is looking for me to give him constant and final reassurance that he is NOT a bad person, that he can be accepted, that he can be loved.

This dance of two wounded people works wonders when we both feel well. We know instinctively how to hold each other close and tell each other that we are the best thing in each other's lives. We tell the other person what we want to hear and the result is perfect playground love. But it's not mature grown-up love. When one or both of our feelings get hurt, this becomes painfully clear. We cannot deal with it like adults. We want the other one to take us into their arms and tell us everything will be okay, and agree to our every term, like an angry toddlers weak parents agree to shut him/her up and bring back the peace.

I've tried being the grown up here. Stepping out of the circle and listening, without engaging. Validating without having to always agree. Setting boundaries. My husband doesn't like any of it. Maybe I am doing it wrong, too harshly, aggressively instead of being firm yet vulnerable. Qutie possibly so. But I'm beginning to have had it. He has shown some minor signs of taking responsibility and stepping up. But I don't know if those signs are enough.

For a year i've been writing in my journal: BE THE CHANGE YOU SEEK. And trying to discover why I'm so afraid of trying when the moment would call for it.  Journals are not unbiased reports because mostly I write there when in the midst of a strong emotion, but the evidence that the devastating reports appear steadily once a week is a sign of something.

However, making the decision to divorce him or even to lay down a really strong ultimatum at the table seems scary when nothing is really SO wrong between us at the moment. We already got through the biggest hurdles. My family is glad to see us doing better and comment so. They see us both progressing with our lives and looking happier. I feel unsatisfied but cannot decide whether I'm just

1) asking for too much, being the perfectionist I tend to be

2) being upset about not getting things I've never told my husband clearly enough that I need (a valdi possibility, because he is extrodinarely thick-headed with these things and I'm extrodinarely unclear)

3) Interpreting my unhappiness as relationship unhappiness eventhough it is just my unhappiness with my life in general (another valid possibility because when I'm happy about my life I like him as well, however, our priorities in life are that much different that we cannot seem to feel happy about our lives at the same time very often)

4) not strong enough to be the (only) emotional grown-up of the relationship. I want to be the cranky baby sometimes and have the other one say firmly "Enough with the whining!" Then come kiss me and then tell me that we'll find a solution.

5) not brave enough to admit that the situation described above will never happen with my husband and I need to move on.

It would be great if I could say: "I won't stay together unless you go to DBT (I'm in DBT-type therapy myself, btw)." AND then he would go. AND then he would do the work. AND at the same time I would do the work. And we would live happily ever after.

I really hate the fact that I have to be the one to go to therapy, dig through the crap of my most inner hurt feelings, do the slow excruciating work of accepting them and living life according to my values despite of their exsistance — and the price is that my husband will resist and yell about every change I want to make and maintains that "I will never accept this idea that people are responsible for their own feelings." Sometimes he surrenders afterwards, but never without trying to put up a fight. I don't want to fight anymore. He sees disengaging as an attack on his feelings so I feel stuck.

I'm not doing that great of a job at the whole digging deep and working through -thing. But I would like some reassurance. Some sign from him that it will change things. Or have I already gotten my sign? Is my sign clearly in front of me, saying: "You have grown, he hasn't, move on." ? From my perspective it's still too blurry. Maybe it says that. I have grown, but not enough to say I've tried it all. I'm not confident enough of my own growth yet.

Okay. Rant over. Congratulations of finishing it! You deserve a sticker.

Now, do you have any thoughts about this or something similar to it? Feel free to share.

[Triptoes]

I don't know whether to write this here on on the Staying board, but let's try this one for starters.

My uBPDh and I have been having a quite good time for the past couple of months. We actually learned how to get a bit better at solving our disagreements. We actually made some grown-up solutions and stuck to them (at least for a while). We were listening to each other and had fun.

Then came some stress, some bigger, scarier feelings, some worries and upsets. And whatdoyaknow, we sucked at talking about it again. A few days ago we had a giant fight and we really sunk down to childish levels, lower than even before (I swear, I even did the ol' fingers-in-the-ears-i'm-not-listening -trick. Yes, I am ashamed.) Afterwards something really dawned on me. We really do act like children. Not only when we disagree, but most all the time.

The longer I go to therapy, the more I notice how in my relationship I am seeking reassurance and some kind of ratification to the hurt I have been feelings since I've been a child. I have been looking at my husband to cure me, complete me, accept me in some deep way so that I will feel like a full-force human being. The longer we stay together, the clearer it gets that my husband has a deep feeling of not accepting himself. When he has big stresses, worries or disappointments his rant about hating it, being angry and frustrated ends with: "I hate myself. Nobody likes me. I'm a bad person." He is looking for me to give him constant and final reassurance that he is NOT a bad person, that he can be accepted, that he can be loved.

This dance of two wounded people works wonders when we both feel well. We know instinctively how to hold each other close and tell each other that we are the best thing in each other's lives. We tell the other person what we want to hear and the result is perfect playground love. But it's not mature grown-up love. When one or both of our feelings get hurt, this becomes painfully clear. We cannot deal with it like adults. We want the other one to take us into their arms and tell us everything will be okay, and agree to our every term, like an angry toddlers weak parents agree to shut him/her up and bring back the peace.

I've tried being the grown up here. Stepping out of the circle and listening, without engaging. Validating without having to always agree. Setting boundaries. My husband doesn't like any of it. Maybe I am doing it wrong, too harshly, aggressively instead of being firm yet vulnerable. Qutie possibly so. But I'm beginning to have had it. He has shown some minor signs of taking responsibility and stepping up. But I don't know if those signs are enough.

For a year i've been writing in my journal: BE THE CHANGE YOU SEEK. And trying to discover why I'm so afraid of trying when the moment would call for it.  Journals are not unbiased reports because mostly I write there when in the midst of a strong emotion, but the evidence that the devastating reports appear steadily once a week is a sign of something.

However, making the decision to divorce him or even to lay down a really strong ultimatum at the table seems scary when nothing is really SO wrong between us at the moment. We already got through the biggest hurdles. My family is glad to see us doing better and comment so. They see us both progressing with our lives and looking happier. I feel unsatisfied but cannot decide whether I'm just

1) asking for too much, being the perfectionist I tend to be

2) being upset about not getting things I've never told my husband clearly enough that I need (a valdi possibility, because he is extrodinarely thick-headed with these things and I'm extrodinarely unclear)

3) Interpreting my unhappiness as relationship unhappiness eventhough it is just my unhappiness with my life in general (another valid possibility because when I'm happy about my life I like him as well, however, our priorities in life are that much different that we cannot seem to feel happy about our lives at the same time very often)

4) not strong enough to be the (only) emotional grown-up of the relationship. I want to be the cranky baby sometimes and have the other one say firmly "Enough with the whining!" Then come kiss me and then tell me that we'll find a solution.

5) not brave enough to admit that the situation described above will never happen with my husband and I need to move on.

It would be great if I could say: "I won't stay together unless you go to DBT (I'm in DBT-type therapy myself, btw)." AND then he would go. AND then he would do the work. AND at the same time I would do the work. And we would live happily ever after.

I really hate the fact that I have to be the one to go to therapy, dig through the crap of my most inner hurt feelings, do the slow excruciating work of accepting them and living life according to my values despite of their exsistance — and the price is that my husband will resist and yell about every change I want to make and maintains that "I will never accept this idea that people are responsible for their own feelings." Sometimes he surrenders afterwards, but never without trying to put up a fight. I don't want to fight anymore. He sees disengaging as an attack on his feelings so I feel stuck.

I'm not doing that great of a job at the whole digging deep and working through -thing. But I would like some reassurance. Some sign from him that it will change things. Or have I already gotten my sign? Is my sign clearly in front of me, saying: "You have grown, he hasn't, move on." ? From my perspective it's still too blurry. Maybe it says that. I have grown, but not enough to say I've tried it all. I'm not confident enough of my own growth yet.

Okay. Rant over. Congratulations of finishing it! You deserve a sticker.

Now, do you have any thoughts about this or something similar to it? Feel free to share.

[OTH]

I've tried being the grown up here. Stepping out of the circle and listening, without engaging. Validating without having to always agree. Setting boundaries. My husband doesn't like any of it. Maybe I am doing it wrong, too harshly, aggressively instead of being firm yet vulnerable. Qutie possibly so. But I'm beginning to have had it. He has shown some minor signs of taking responsibility and stepping up. But I don't know if those signs are enough.

It takes practice. Change is hard. Keep learning and keep trying. If you want things to improve you need at least one grown up. You changing is bound to be upsetting to him also. He is used to the dance of the two wounded people. You are trying to change that dance. He will have to change to your new steps a bit or he might run away. Part of making a change is being OK with that fact.

It would be great if I could say: "I won't stay together unless you go to DBT (I'm in DBT-type therapy myself, btw)." AND then he would go. AND then he would do the work. AND at the same time I would do the work. And we would live happily ever after.

You are doing the hard work here. You are making changes for the better. GO YOU! The stronger you are the better your life will be. Do it for yourself and your future happiness.

I really hate the fact that I have to be the one to go to therapy, dig through the crap of my most inner hurt feelings, do the slow excruciating work of accepting them and living life according to my values despite of their exsistance — and the price is that my husband will resist and yell about every change I want to make and maintains that "I will never accept this idea that people are responsible for their own feelings." Sometimes he surrenders afterwards, but never without trying to put up a fight. I don't want to fight anymore. He sees disengaging as an attack on his feelings so I feel stuck.

You want to be the best you possible. Don't let him stand in your way. He is going to have to accept some changes in the way you two relate or he might not and run away. This is for your sanity and good emotional health. This is to give the two of you a healthier relationship also. Maybe it doesn't work but you are doing your best. You should be very proud of yourself.

I'm not doing that great of a job at the whole digging deep and working through -thing. But I would like some reassurance. Some sign from him that it will change things. Or have I already gotten my sign? Is my sign clearly in front of me, saying: "You have grown, he hasn't, move on." ? From my perspective it's still too blurry. Maybe it says that. I have grown, but not enough to say I've tried it all. I'm not confident enough of my own growth yet.

It is a sign you are doing very hard work to change your life for the better. Focus on doing it for yourself and your own better future.

Okay. Rant over. Congratulations of finishing it! You deserve a sticker.

Really! A gold star? Can I get a gold star?

[Peace4ME]

Triptoes,

That wasn't a rant- it was a wonderful expression of what you are going through that showed how self-aware you really are. My hat is off to you. I usually feel like I can express myself well, but after reading this I feel like I haven't been completely honest with myself.

My dBPDbf and I have been doing better over the past few months too. At least it appears that way. He is in DBT and I have been starting to feel the beginnings of radical acceptance and letting go of what I cannot control. But, we’re really not that much happier. I think I lie to myself and say, it’s so much better without the raging and the projection and blaming has gone down a LOT too. Much shorter periods of anger dysregulation.

But the anger and blame has just turned into sadness and shame. Now, he is very aware of what he has put me through, and doesn’t understand why I am still here. And when it really comes down to that question, I’m not really sure why I am either? The answer should be because I love him so much. But we have been fighting and dealing with BPD for ¾ of our nearly 2 year relationship. It’s been so long since I felt content and happy enough to call this real love.

There are some things you wrote that really struck a chord with me.

When he has big stresses, worries or disappointments his rant about hating it, being angry and frustrated ends with: "I hate myself. Nobody likes me. I'm a bad person." He is looking for me to give him constant and final reassurance that he is NOT a bad person, that he can be accepted, that he can be loved.

Exact same situation in our home.  I don’t have the drive anymore to reassure him day after day. I feel like a robot on repeat.

 

This dance of two wounded people works wonders when we both feel well. We know instinctively how to hold each other close and tell each other that we are the best thing in each other's lives. We tell the other person what we want to hear and the result is perfect playground love. But it's not mature grown-up love. When one or both of our feelings get hurt, this becomes painfully clear. We cannot deal with it like adults. We want the other one to take us into their arms and tell us everything will be okay, and agree to our every term, like an angry toddlers weak parents agree to shut him/her up and bring back the peace.

I've tried being the grown up here. Stepping out of the circle and listening, without engaging. Validating without having to always agree. Setting boundaries. My husband doesn't like any of it. Maybe I am doing it wrong, too harshly, aggressively instead of being firm yet vulnerable.

UFN used the analogy of a teddy bear for me the other day. My bf needed me New Year’s Day like he needed a teddy bear, a blankie, or a mommy. He needed me to rub his back, wipe away his tears, run him a bath and tell him everything was going to be ok. That’s what he needed because he has no tools for self-soothing. No way to make himself feel better. It was a strange day. I want to be able to comfort my partner, but I was left with this odd feeling of having acted like his parent ,too many times, and knew very well he was not capable of doing the same for me if I was in crisis. The next day he wanted his teddy bear back, but instead I tried to be his partner. He didn’t like it.

I think it’s great you have a journal. It’s something I’ve thought about and my T has suggested but I haven’t taken it up. Maybe that should be another NY’s resolution for me.

However, making the decision to divorce him or even to lay down a really strong ultimatum at the table seems scary when nothing is really SO wrong between us at the moment. We already got through the biggest hurdles. My family is glad to see us doing better and comment so. They see us both progressing with our lives and looking happier. I feel unsatisfied but cannot decide whether I'm just:

1) asking for too much, being the perfectionist I tend to be

2) being upset about not getting things I've never told my husband clearly enough that I need

4) not strong enough to be the (only) emotional grown-up of the relationship. I want to be the cranky baby sometimes and have the other one say firmly "Enough with the whining!" Then come kiss me and then tell me that we'll find a solution.

5) not brave enough to admit that the situation described above will never happen with my husband and I need to move on.

I modified this just slightly for myself but otherwise I just want to say I GET YOU. Sometimes when I see all the pain he is in and all that he has tried to do I think, “What am I doing? Is this far too much to expect someone to work through and still enjoy life together?” He has improved on so many of the things that I asked and yet I’m still not happy. But then again neither is he. And the things that he worked on weren’t “extras” or “perfections”. They were unacceptable (to me) in a relationship. Raging, blaming, out of control behavior. Stuff that had to go before we could even attempt “normal”.

It would be great if I could say: "I won't stay together unless you go to DBT (I'm in DBT-type therapy myself, btw)." AND then he would go. AND then he would do the work. AND at the same time I would do the work. And we would live happily ever after.

I think it’s great that you are in DBT, but I want to tell you that my bf getting into DBT (8 sessions or so) hasn’t been some magic fix, he is more depressed than ever. There is still a lot of resistance on his part. A lot of hurt. A lot of just not getting it yet, and going in circles about sticking with it or quitting.

Thanks for your post, and I hope you continue to gain that strength you are looking for. I know I’m trying to find it too.

[OTH]

I think it’s great that you are in DBT, but I want to tell you that my bf getting into DBT (8 sessions or so) hasn’t been some magic fix, he is more depressed than ever. There is still a lot of resistance on his part. A lot of hurt. A lot of just not getting it yet, and going in circles about sticking with it or quitting.

Thanks for your post, and I hope you continue to gain that strength you are looking for. I know I’m trying to find it too.

I have actually heard this quite a bit. That with the start of DBT they learn some tools to handle the really bad acting out behavior but their emotions can become even more difficult. There is a lot to sort out though. It isn't going to be an easy or short process.

[Peace4ME]

I think it’s great that you are in DBT, but I want to tell you that my bf getting into DBT (8 sessions or so) hasn’t been some magic fix, he is more depressed than ever. There is still a lot of resistance on his part. A lot of hurt. A lot of just not getting it yet, and going in circles about sticking with it or quitting.

Thanks for your post, and I hope you continue to gain that strength you are looking for. I know I’m trying to find it too.

I have actually heard this quite a bit. That with the start of DBT they learn some tools to handle the really bad acting out behavior but their emotions can become even more difficult. There is a lot to sort out though. It isn't going to be an easy or short process.

Exactly. He is already dealing with the anger, blame and projection much better (not gone, but much better) but that means he really has to look within himself, which for a BPD must be EXTREMELY painful seeing as how they typically feel ashamed of themselves to the core. Sometimes it seems too much for him to bear. I'm not yet sure if he is 100% or even 51% committed.

[Triptoes]

Thank you, OTH and Peace4ME for your replies!

OTH, I literally got teary-eyed when I read your response. Of course this is true. It IS a lot of hard work. And I SHOULD already be proud and grateful of what I — and we — have achieved.

And you're right, if I want things to improve, I need at least one grown up. And that doesn't only apply to our relationship, it applies to my life in general. Whether or not our marriage lasts, I will need to grow up and stop letting my inner wounded child to run the show in order to live a purposeful life according to my values.

You are doing the hard work here. You are making changes for the better. GO YOU! The stronger you are the better your life will be. Do it for yourself and your future happiness.

You want to be the best you possible. Don't let him stand in your way. He is going to have to accept some changes in the way you two relate or he might not and run away. This is for your sanity and good emotional health. This is to give the two of you a healthier relationship also. Maybe it doesn't work but you are doing your best.

Thank you for theses.   I have been away from this board for a while, just felled compelled to post. Now I know why. This place never leaves me cold.

You're right. I do want to be the best me possible. And no-one is going to stand in my way — not even the current version of me, with her fears and insecurities. Healthier me coming through! I tend to lose sight of the goal sometimes, just agonizing about the hurdles along the way. It is great to be reminded that no matter what happens with my husband, there will always be a pot of gold in the end: healthier life as a healthier, more balanced, self-loving, genuine person. Gotta love it.

Peace4me, thank you for your kind words and it is truly encouraging (even if the expriences always aren't) to just hear someone else struggling with the same things. So thank you. 

I'm glad my purging of emotions rang a bell with you, yours did so with me as well.

I want to be able to comfort my partner, but I was left with this odd feeling of having acted like his parent ,too many times, and knew very well he was not capable of doing the same for me if I was in crisis. The next day he wanted his teddy bear back, but instead I tried to be his partner. He didn’t like it.

I recognize this feeling, too well. The feeling that my partner needs me to soothe his feelings for him, and nothing less will satisfy him. I like the teddy bear reference, it is spot on. I have become quite allergic to the teddy bear pleading puppy eyes he gives me. When you feel like you have to hold a grown man's whole weight for them to be able to get through even the slightest set back — I for one start to question my attraction to this man and will let my grip slip. Even if just for a moment to see how he will do on his own. Sometimes even tell him to do so. And yeah, they don't like that.

The answer should be because I love him so much. But we have been fighting and dealing with BPD for ¾ of our nearly 2 year relationship. It’s been so long since I felt content and happy enough to call this real love.

This rings true for me as well. I love my husband, in a deep attachment, I care about him greatly, I consider him one of my best friends and confidants. But I don't feel very in love with him. Many times not at all. It is difficult to face the fact that for the majority of our relationship, we've had problems. Most people quit, if that is the case. But us, wounded children, have kept on hoping that the other one will make us whole. So now I'm here, lived through so much with this man and despite the bad times shared so many good ones — that leaving without trying to do my best to build this into a healthier relationship isn't a viable option.

I think it’s great that you are in DBT, but I want to tell you that my bf getting into DBT (8 sessions or so) hasn’t been some magic fix, he is more depressed than ever. There is still a lot of resistance on his part. A lot of hurt. A lot of just not getting it yet, and going in circles about sticking with it or quitting.

Of course this is true. And my desperate plea about him getting help is not really rational or based on reality. That is the cry of my inner child, my victim, who wants someone else to have to dig, weed and grow new healthier behaviors and thinking patterns. I realize it would be no miracle cure. Me going to therapy hasn't been any miracle cure either, why would his! I've gone two steps forward and one backwards. I've at times managed to stir up such emotions that it has been me causing havoc in our home, not him. And I know I still have a long way to go.

So thank you both, really. This actually made me think that I should really take as my new year's resolution to get my behind to that local CoDa meeting that I have been eyeing for a year but never dared to go. Maybe finding a regular circle where I could talk about and practice these new tools in practice would be beneficial. And where I can safely rant, if I feel like it. I should do it. At least I'll think about it really hard!