12 days NC from her just got a text. Wow.

[chuckstrong]

after 12 days NC her/10 days NC me i just got a text

it said "hi." thats it . "hi"

wow. are you freaking kidding me, HI. really?

what i i supposed to say... .  oh hey how are you? how have the past 12 days been?

Hi. how are you?

what is she doing?

What the heck?

thoughts?/suggestions?

Chuck

[RedCandle]

I've had cycles of NC that range from a few days to 7 weeks.

Let me tell you... .  anything after a few days becomes very painful.

In my case, I got nothing more than, "I love you" or "beautiful."

That was it.

And I took the bait every time.

I think they are just testing the water... .  will he respond? If so, how? will he ignore?

Its less on the line for them... .  the less they put out.

I don't have any good advice... .  I have always responded... .  and the cycle continues... .  

I'm currently about 23 days or so No Contact... .  its very hard... .  

... .  and you're half hoping it continues (so you don't get baited)... .  and half hoping to hear from them... .  

But I FULLY understand how frustrated you are!

[recoil]

What do you want to do Chuck?

Looks like you might be mad and that might be a good thing.  I think I'd wait for the next text before I responded with anything.  And I'd keep my response very short.

[oletimefeelin]

She's noticed that you have stayed quiet so long and she's scared.  Rather than write a novel per usual, she puts out something non-threatening and innocuous.  She'd like you to show your hand first, at which point she restates her rambling reasons for your current predicament.  Then you start the clock over again.

Also, she's fishing for one of your patented "I miss you's" to soothe her.  Do not do it. 

As hard as the distance has been for you, it does seem like you have begun to recognize the patterns.  This part gets easier to see, but harder on the head.  So your anger is very appropriate.

[Washisheart]

She senses you distancing so she is trying to reel you back in

[chuckstrong]

RC/Recoil/Oletime/Washisheart

thank you for the great obsevations/suggestions... .  i appreciate it.

gonna stay NC and see what happens next... .  a fishing expedition no doubt.

im still shaking my head though... .  "hi" after 12 days... .  "hi"... .  this is a person that has wriiten me so many 2-5 page dissertations via email ive lost count and she says "hi" its almost laughable at this point.

Chuck

[Seashells]

Hang in there Chuck! 

I can't help but agree with the sentiment of others, this seems like a fishing expedition because you've 'upped the ante' and haven't responded.  At least in my case, there were a lot of mixed emotions involved in that as well when it happened, as I knew the end of the silence was going to bring on a pursuit.   (this is a large part of why it seems to become addictive and unhealthy, it's like Pavlov's dog, I knew it was only a matter of time and I'd start drooling (not literally   well okay maybe sometimes  )  and it's VERY VERY VALIDATING for US!  Hey!  You finally figured out I'm so wonderful, right?  You finally see how much I love you!  You finally see _____ (insert words which validate us).   

I would expect she may escalate it if you don't respond, and while that will most likely feel like a relief emotionally (and may make you feel stronger while she is doing it), hang onto your hat!  Because it's really hard to ride out those emotions unless you can seriously detach and get on with your own life. You may fail, and that's okay, just try not to lose your heart or sanity while doing so.   

I hate to say it, but hope you will also consider the possibility she may have someone else involved, and that's why she can continue this for so long in between, (ouch, sorry I know that one hurts, been there and had to come to that realization myself)

I'm going to guess even when you start seeing it for what it is, it's still really hard to resist getting pulled back into it.  It's a process I guess.  I'm still learning too.  I'm going through it again myself to a great degree, feels like being pulled back down into a hole when I was half way out already.  But as of the moment I can't seem to bring myself to post about it.  I can say the relationship I'm in has improved with the efforts I've made with the tools on here as far as not making things worse, etc.   We are communicating.  My ... .  nevermind    I just realized if I continue I WILL end up hi-jacking this into something else. 

Best wishes to you.  Be strong, be healthy, I hope you find the strength to focus on you a little more than her and search for those things that help you feel strong and healthy and stay that way.  Taking care of you isn't being selfish.  I hate the word selfish.  I'm going to guess most of the people who post on this board don't do a lot of things for themselves because they have trouble juggling the idea of taking care of themselves with being 'selfish' which doesn't seem like a very complimentary verb or adjective; nor part of speech.  .  Taking care of yourself and your happiness and making sure you're emotionally strong has nothing to do with the uncomplimentary connotations of the word 'selfish'.  (sounds good, realize I'm coaching myself here too!)

Rant over.   

I wish you well, and wish you strength. 

Seashells

[chuckstrong]

thanks seashells

everything you said right on target... .  its hard and i have mixed emotions for sure... .  


recieved follow up text at 345 AM she said: sorry for texting you... .  had a moment of extreme

weakness/loneliness/sadness. hope you are okay. sorry.

this stuff is so consuming and energy draining... .  and seemingly never ending.

not sure what will happen next... .  ?

Chuck

[RedCandle]

Oh... .  I've gotten those too... .  

"Sorry to have emailed... .  "

"Sorry to be such a bother... .  "

"Clearly, you never cared... .  "

"I've made a fool out of myself by contacting you... .  "

Be prepared for her to step up the game.

I'm not sure what the best move on your part is but I know more experienced members will chime in.

I just learned about "extinction bursts"... .  dramatic moves when they feel abandoned.

I never believed this until recently when I stopped responding to his emails... .  and he drove 4 hours in the dark to show up at my office.

THIS go-round... .  there have been no "bursts"... .  just dead silence.

Stay strong! This part is the worst!

[oletimefeelin]

Chuck,

I used to get a lot of calls after midnight.  I never really answered, so waking up to that was always a joy.  This is your show, but if I were you I'd lay low. 

Remember this is only as exhausting as you let it be.  Someone above asked you what you want.  This is an important question for you to answer.  Focus on this right now and we can advise accordingly.

[blurry]

 How bad is this, im on day 10 of mutual NC and im jealous. At least you know that youre on her mind. What good that does, i have no idea, but its something. Praying mine breaks NC.

Oh in my experience, i inadvertantly went NC the time before last only because i was exhausted physically and emotionally after going on an 8 day binge and blowing up her phone the whole time with texts. She broke NC after 14 days. I got "hope you had a nice birthday" (10 days late), during the afternoon, then, after i assume she'd been drinking, "guess you dont want to talk to me" around midnight. I waited 3 days to respond and then we got right back together.

I didnt know she was BPD or had BPD traits till after she kicked me out/broke up for the 3rd and final time, so im thinking, when i did respond to her properly over the 8 month r/s, i did it unknowingly.

Bottom line, i dont know how id respond Chuck, but would love to be in that position at least, guess id suggest holding off and forcing her to be less cryptic?

If my ex texted after midnight id have to assume she was drunk/high too. Again, not sure what difference that would make. Although i know what nights she drinks and im conctantly looking at my phone in hopes she breaks NC those nights in particular. Guess im in a bad spot right now but i am living life under the assumption that ill never see/hear from her again.

Come to think of it, arent we supposed to mirror them when they make contact? Respond to a "hi" with a "hi" ect?

[Seashells]

Chuck,

For me this was the part where doing some soul searching really came into play about LC vs. NC.   Deciding what I wanted, what I could accept and what I could not. (within the only choices I could control of course, MY OWN).    Have you read any of the articles on here about them?  (LC vs. NC).   Although I have only a few posts I've been reading here for a few months.

All of this really helped me, in a nutshell what I got from it is going completely NC becomes a game (and I believe this is true) if you don't stick to it.  It can become passive aggressive hurtful and unhealthy if you can't stick to it and stay with it.   So, figuring out what YOU want and what you can and cannot do is empowering and important.  I broke NC soo many times, it just didn't work for me.  I went to LC to 'buy myself' some time to think, but previously my situation was a circle that would always escalate if I didn't respond.   

The messages would start out either neutral such as the ones you're getting, or nicely, (also sometimes got the 'sorry I contacted you ones'  they then went to pleading, then if I didn't respond they went to angry, and then innuendos regarding desperation.   At that point I would cave.  (This was always after I had been dropped, and did not pursue contact in any way. Wrote those letters which never got sent.)  In fact, I often would say in advance, " I know how this goes, so next week or in two weeks when you change your mind, please don't contact me."   It always, always, always happened.  Early on I would get anxiety over never hearing from him again, later it was anxiety over trying to do NC while he escalated contact. 

It was craziness, we were breaking up every three weeks to a month and I was engaging in this over and over while realizing it was madness. 

My r/s is a little different in that it's a long distance r/s part of the time, and there has been a divorce and an ex involved.  And quite a bit of triangulation (read definition). 

I've been learning alot about myself and trying to improve me.  I decided to stop trying the NC because I couldn't totally commit.  I did the LC, started reading about communication techniques to stop making it worse.  (I felt this was good for me either way).   I also drew my boundaries, not like steel immovable fences, but like permeable walls with room for communication to move back and forth, but still making it clear in a kind voice and gentle tone that I can't and won't accept certain things any longer. I don't have to be mean or cold or angry in order to not accept it.  (a lesson for me, often previously reacting out of anger, understandable anger, but none the less anger)

I'm saying all of this in the hope that if she does respond to the NC by escalating and starting to chase YOU, that you might be able to avoid going in more circles with it over and over.  Or at least lessen it by recognizing it.   It wears on your soul.

My situation as crazy as it is right now, seems to be improving.  I've got just a wee bit of hope and am open to the future if I can stay solid and be strong. 

One of the things I'm learning is there doesn't have to be 'absolutes' or 'forever mores' in this situation, (black and white thinking).  I can make a decision I feel is best for right now and adjust accordingly as things go on. 

But I am trying to stay emotionally solid, and that's become my number one goal.  I can express my needs and wants calmly, SET and DEARMAN really have helped. 

Good Luck.   No one can predict what she will do next, but when you can accept it either way and not ruminate, I find that to be the best feeling of peace.  (Hard not to sometimes and I'm still working on it all the time).   I think it's some of that Radical Acceptance stuff sprinkled in there too.   

Hope I'm not rambling too much. 

Be well. 

And P.S.  I strongly suggest whatever you do try to approach this from a position of strength even if you decide on LC and she pursues.  Make sure her contacts are 'requiring a response' before you respond.  Does that make sense?  In other words, don't chase her after that last comment if you decide LC is best.  Do it after she sends you another message that requires a response in order to not be rude.  Like if she asks "how are you?".   

Just my .02  FWIW

[chuckstrong]

thank you seashells

great post ... .  very informative... .  yes i think LC could in fact work better for me

than NC... .  

so much to think about with this stuff... .  it shouldnt be this hard should it?

i am debating the merits of a short response but can see both sides right now

brutal... .  is what this is.

chuck

[Newton]

Imagine just for a minute you are a fish... .  you can see a juicy delicious worm with the words "hi, eat me" written on it... .  you know full well there is a hook buried in that worm but my god it looks tasty!... .  you know full well that you are being a fish in your desire to gobble that worm up... .  you sense the fear of the "hookiness" about it all... .  you have been here before... .  flapping on the river bank... .  terrified... .  thinking "why on earth did I bite!"... .  and yet you still bit... .  

It's your choice to bite , or not... .  

Chuck... .  I could show you my phone with saved messages with a "hi Newton, how are you"... .  then after a few seemingly pleasant exchanges it goes south... .  quickly and badly.

Deep down, although it sucks... .  you know how a response will turn out  

[chuckstrong]

Hi all

update:

i did in fact respond this evening to her text(s) with

"no worries. i understand. hope you are okay."

SO... .  she just texted back " Hanging in there. Hope you are too."

funny how last night she was sad,lonely and weak but tonight shes hanging in there

she probably noticed i havent mentioned how im doing at all

im assuming the consensus will be to leave that last text from her one alone and head back

to the dusty old NC trail... .  well here we go again 1 hour NC!

this SUCKS... .  it really does.

Chuck (clearly not that Strong)

[Seashells]

Only you can decide what is right for you. 

Some of the advice in the reading lessons here are counter intuitive to how we want to automatically handle things, or our natural response.

I think your response may have just reassured her your still hanging around for her.  Because her texts to you really didn't require a response.  She probably said sorry I had a weak moment to see if you'd get triggered into responding. 

So, I would say if you want this to continue as it's been keep doing things the same way.  If you want more from her, you're going to have to 're-set' the dynamics. 

She's most likely not going to give you more than you're getting from her now because you're not requiring her to do anymore than she's been doing now to keep you engaged in this 'quasi-relationship'.

Make sense?  She may or may not respond with more if you try to require more from her to keep you engaged in a relationship.  That's why you're heart has to be in it for yourself and your own sanity before you can do it.

You have to be able and willing to let go of the outcome either way.  When you do, amazing things could happen, either way. 

I came to a point where I've let go many times, obviously not enough or not completely.  Many times I honestly did not want the contact or to continue to be re-engaged in it.  At the same time I still cared about him.

When you are fed up enough you will get there. 

[Somewhere]

12 days sounds like a good start.

Maybe see if you go 100?

[chuckstrong]

UPDATE CHUCK  (NOT SO STRONG)

hi all... .  its been almost two weeks since i posted... .  thats because ive been caught up in the euphoria () of her most recent recycling of me... .  i must love breadcrumbs because thats what i'm getting ... .  It all started up again on the 14th of January after 12 days NC got the "hi" text... .  then after many more texts then calls she informs me she is sad and lonely and needs to lean on me... .  she's having various medical procedures and fears the big C badly... .  she's sorry if she's leaning on me too much... .  she still loves me and misses me but still needs to see this break-up /alone /space thing to fruition... .  she ramped it up this past Friday at 5pm with this text------ " I am tempted to meet you for dinner tonite if you don't have plans but on the other hand i feel guilty being in touch with you what so ever" ----... .  she then called we agreed to meet with a no kissing sleeping together proviso initiated by her... .  we met 1 hour later... .  had a blast laughed and only hugged a few times... .  it was SO weird... .  I hadn't seen her since NOV 3 she looked good... .  was all i could do not to want more... .  we left each other soon after dinner ... .  she called/texted alot that night and thru the weekend up till another late night call last night... .  today NC so far ()... .  i am playing the perfect "friend" all about her like usual even when things were "good"... .  this quasi-relationship feels really one sided and bad for me yet i persist... .  seems better than NC i tell myself cause that was absolute h***... .  this ssucks but it must be better than NOTHING... .  really Chuck? really?

SO, i ask each and everyone of you... .  WHY?

WHY do i continue to let her toss me breadcrumbs torture me and give me really nothing while i still grovel and let her pat me on the head like a puppy dog? WHY? am i that damaged by this? this is not me! Do i have Stockholm Syndrome? PTSD? What?

She is so patronizing at this point and in control its ridiculous... .  i hate it... i feel like an absolute idiot even posting this amongst friends who can empathize with me... .  i know its wrong... .  i know its killing me... .  WHY cant i stop? Do i really think she's just gonna wake up and say sorry Chuck the torture iv'e put you thru the past 8 months was a mistake... .  you are the person i put up on that pedestal

i LOVE YOU so so much lets go back to the honeymoon stage OK?

If not than why do i continue to be treated so patently like S***? WHY?

all comments suggestions support and help readily accepted.

God bless.

Chuck

[tuum est61]

UPDATE CHUCK  (NOT SO STRONG)

SO, i ask each and everyone of you... .  WHY?

Chuck

Oh Chuck,  You love her, AND you are UNDECIDED, that's why.  

You might try not beating yourself up (or her) for what is going on here - there's BPD involved.  

So now what?  Restart the NC counter?   How is monitoring an NC counter working for you?  

And tell me what you mean when you say she is "so patronizing and in control"

[chuckstrong]

Tuum

she acts like she's doing me a favor being in touch with me at all and

we are just old pals it seems now i'm there to support her pletera

of medical/work/XH/kids issues... .  she is using me and giving me breadcrumbs in return... .  IT SUCKS!

Chuck

[tuum est61]

Tuum

she acts like she's doing me a favor being in touch with me at all and

we are just old pals it seems now i'm there to support her pletera

of medical/work/XH/kids issues... .  she is using me and giving me breadcrumbs in return... .  IT SUCKS!

Chuck

Sharing her concerns and acting like an old pal seems a little forward given the status of your relationship, but I expect she's always done that. I dont see it as patronizing but I do see it as potentially crossing boundaries.  

Has she actually asked you to do anything with regard to the plethora of items?  It is a choice as to whether you act or just listen.  What boundaries do you think you can set around any expectations she may have?  

[chuckstrong]

No she hasn't asked directly but I volunteered to take her to her doc apt

Friday (she's worried) but she said her Dad will go and she will call me right when she gets out. NC again today so who knows. its BRUTAL !

Chuck

[patientandclear]

Hi Chuck.

I think you need to be brave here.

Your current choices are: enter into this twilight zone of "old pals" interaction with her, or, tell her that you want more if you are going to be in touch, so unless/until things fundamentally change for her, you need to say goodbye.

You can pick which one of those you prefer.

What isn't currently available is a return to the kind of romantic interactions you have had in the past.  Not saying could never happen, but it is not on offer right now.

I've just posted on two boards about the comparative success of my friendship with my uBPDexbf.  We're doing that old pals thing that you are experiencing as inadequate, and it is inadequate -- I know it well from my own experience -- if what you are wanting is a return to being lovers.

I think we get stuck when we act as though, by wishing, we could make a third way possible -- where you are in contact and everything is fine romantically.  We are beginning to make peace with ourselves if we choose among the paths that are actually available.  She is telling you clearly she is not able to be a full romantic partner to you at the moment.  So if you stay in touch, you might use some of the tools on the Staying board to work on radical acceptance of that and of where she is at right now, rather than expecting her to change.

And if you cannot do the "pals" thing without too much pain (I couldn't either, for almost a year, so totally respect that), then, you probably need to stop contact.  Because that is the only kind of contact on offer.

I know those are not the choices you want, but her condition is not permitting the one you want.  As some wise people on here have said to me, not accepting what is true is the source of a lot of pain.  Once you accept, you can see which choices are genuinely open to you and make a choice that is best for you.

[chuckstrong]

P&C

Thank you! I appreciate your input and analysis... .  you are right in that the

choice I want is not available so I need to choose between the other two.

After having dinner with her the other night (first time I saw her since NOV3)

I realized that the "old pals" thing will be very very unsatisfying and frustrating. I want more. I wanted very badly to have the dinner not end after two hours. In fact I have seen her in person only twice since Aug 30 for a total of 10 hours(8/2) . That's just not enough. So, until something fundamentally changes in terms of what she wants I need to act dramatically different here or just walk away. It feels like she slowly is losing her love and affection and respect for me BECAUSE i'm sticking around as the back-up plan/ lapdog if that makes any sense. . The walk away (NC) seems to be the way to go but I cant bring myself to stick to it. Last time I did for almost two weeks then caved in immediately when she sent a "hi" text. Maybe I can keep LC and be indifferent/aloof and she will come around at some point. I just go round and round in my head as to what is the best course of action. I read here and try to learn from others and their experiences. A lot of great advice but no panacea seems to jump out at me.

SO, The only thing I DO know is I have to do something different because

the current situation is extremely untenable to me and it is literally killing my spirit. Dealing with/recovering from someone with BPD (w/NPD traits) feels like the hardest thing i've ever had to go thru. As wonderful (and I mean wonderful) as the honeymoon/idealization stages WERE this is correspondingly just as HORRIFIC these feelings on the other side of the coin.   

THANK YOU to all my great support(ers) here. This place has been a blessing and a God send for me.

As usual please feel free to comment and make suggestions to me. This

is just so so hard on all of us here.

Chuck

[Cardinals in Flight]

I too can be sympathetic to what you are going through, as I am

"old pals" with my former g/f and there are times that it sucks! 

Try being LC? the acting as if you are indifferent can spur you on to better things... .  feeling better about yourself and maybe getting on with your life.  When I let go to the point I was ready to just be alone, that I really was ok then my situation began to change with my pwBPD.  Something about me being the stronger self-confident type (which I really am until I met her, OMG) worked in my favor and our r/s now is better than what "was" ie, the idealization\romantic phase.  This will not be the case for everyone of course, I still wonder if Im nuts some days.  But at least you'll get some of your mojo back.

Good luck, I feel for ya

CiF

[patientandclear]

Chuck,

Several thoughts.  First, it may help to consider whether not being in a sexual/romantic r/s with her is actually a choice YOU believe is right & loving--not just something she's decided that you have to swallow or contest.  She is clearly really tortured about all this. Perhaps it's a loving thing to do to step back & affirm that you love her AND that you can see that being intimate right now is not a healthy thing.  I am struck by her comment a few weeks ago that she thought you were different, meaning, not just into her for sex.  I think in a variety of ways she is telling you, like many of our BPD partners do when things fall apart, that you are very important to her but she cannot let you all the way in right now.  If so, what about YOU making and owning the choice not to push it right now, & conveying that to her.  Seems like that might take a lot of the pressure off.  I realize what I'm suggesting there is hard emotionally given how recent & raw this isn but really, do YOU want to be intimate with smeone this chaotic about her most fundamental feelings?  Does that honor either of you?

Second ... .  this is the perspective of 18 months out & 10 months of strict NC, so I know it is easier for me to say this than for you to hear it, but ... .  I am finding the "old pals" thing quite interesting.  It is not not romantic, if that makes sense.  It's like a really slow, old fashioned or Amish courtship or something.  Just throw in some buggy rides & we're there!  That view comes from me being very centered & still, watching what he does, really listening, taking seriously where he is. It's another way of loving someone.  In many respects I find it better than the initial idealization b/c it is based on reality & real effort on both of our parts.

I could not have done it right away because I was still so disappointed that we were not going to be everything he'd promised, in that initial desperation.  Maybe it's too much to suggest that you consider seeing her current overtures this way.  But I think it is both true that she cannot be with you in a routine romantic way right now, & that she is trying to stay close to you & you are important to her.  That's a complex reality.  If you need to step away for a while to get your feet under you, I suggest explaining to her simply and honestly that you accept where she's at, it will require some time & distance for you to heal, & if/when you can, you will be in touch. I think that's very different than the kind of gamey "I'll distance her & see if she comes around" approach. Be honest about why you're going away--it's not that you don't care, it's not to manipulate her.  That is a posture I think you'll find it easier to live with down the road.

Remember, if you manipulate her into a short-term tryst by pretending to be withdrawing ... .  what have you won?  She's still terrified of losing you, & now you've shown her she should be. I suggest looking for a more loving coursze-more loving toward you both.

[Cardinals in Flight]

Clarification here Chuck!

When I said above to "act as if", I did not mean that to imply any type of game playing! It's actually a technique from a book I have read on co-dependency.  The theory of "acting as if... .  ", we are in control of ourselves when perhaps we are a mess inside, (thus not displaying our emotions on our sleeves to our significant other/people in general), is meant to help  us get outside our heads and be present in whatever life situation we happen to find ourselves.  I've implemented this for myself on several occasions, when in actuality all I wanted to do was talk seriously and be sad, and emotive, and it works!  You can defuse a difficult situation by "acting as if, things are better than they really are"  or that life is good or whatever you need at the time.  It's best at least for me (and my pwBPD) to stay focused on my emotions to keep them in check, while listening and validating in any given circumstance.

CiF

[chuckstrong]

thanks!... .  some very good and interesting thoughts!

its an emotional roller coaster for sure... .  gonna go with some serious "as if" some aloofness and some indiffference while keeping LC minimally and

respecting where shes at. gonna try and get my mojo back and move on so ill be good no matter what she does. i like it. feels better already.

cif-a tad confused tho you say "former G/F " but it sounds like you are together and things are very good/ what gives?

thanks PC great suggestions/observations!

Chuck

[Cardinals in Flight]

Chuckstrong wrote... .  "cif-a tad confused tho you say "former G/F " but it sounds like you are together and things are very good/ what gives?"

LMAO  , I'm confused too!  

Seriously, I describe what we have as an "unship", after the label of relationship was dropped, (implied committment, physical intimacy), we've gotten on very well, BUT, it would have never happened if I hadn't done some work on myself. Our relationship developed in a BPD textbook fashion, and when the fall-out began it was not pretty!  I didn't realize it, but I was making things worse by being co-dependent, soo, I've been working on myself a lot since the break-up which was almost exactly a year ago.  

The lessons I learned >> >> here, (to the right), and work with my T have helped me see that we were drawn to one another, and I was at a point in my life where I was vulnerable to her hot pursuit of me and constantly hearing  how wonderful I was!, gee, who wouldn't fall for that?

Learning to detach with love, and depersonalize works wonders!

Hope that helps, or at least gives a little more explanation

CiF

[schwing]

Hi Chuckstrong,

Here are some of my comments/feedback:

its an emotional roller coaster for sure... .  gonna go with some serious "as if" some aloofness and some indiffference while keeping LC minimally and respecting where shes at. gonna try and get my mojo back and move on so ill be good no matter what she does. i like it. feels better already.

The thing is, this "relationship" you are choosing to have with her is going to be a pattern of distancing alternating with inappropriate closeness (perhaps at some point).  Because for pwBPD, you're either "all in" or else you are "all out."  Right now you are "all out" but perhaps with the option to go "all in."  And who decides when you are "all in"?  She does.

What will be difficult is that she may just keep changing your role without any consideration for what your needs/your situation is.  It is all about what her needs are at any time.  The minute you start talking about what you want and need, if it doesn't coincide with what she wants/need then she will toss you to the curb.  She is afraid of abandonment, afraid of you leaving her; she has no problem with her leaving you.

... .  you are right in that the choice I want is not available so I need to choose between the other two.

After having dinner with her the other night (first time I saw her since NOV3) I realized that the "old pals" thing will be very very unsatisfying and frustrating. I want more. I wanted very badly to have the dinner not end after two hours.

What makes your choice difficult is that even though right now you have decided that you are not getting what you want.  You don't know if that isn't going to change later on.  Because chances are, she has been this way for the entire duration of your relationship.  A broken clock is right twice a day.

The problem is, even after you get what you want, there is no guarantee that it will stick.  In fact, there is a good chance that you will just have to go through the awful "break-up" that you just went through for reasons that have nothing to do with what you're going through.

It feels like she slowly is losing her love and affection and respect for me BECAUSE i'm sticking around as the back-up plan/ lapdog if that makes any sense. The walk away (NC) seems to be the way to go but I cant bring myself to stick to it. Last time I did for almost two weeks then caved in immediately when she sent a "hi" text. Maybe I can keep LC and be indifferent/aloof and she will come around at some point.

What you may have to learn to accept is that she isn't going to change in any fundamental way.  Sure, her feelings will change.  But her feelings have always changed.  And for a while she'll idealize you again.  And then she'll stop and put you through hell again.  How many times do you have to go through the wringer before you decide this isn't what you signed up for?  How much pain must you experience before you have learned what you need to learn?  There is no better instructor than pain.

SO, i ask each and everyone of you... .  WHY?

WHY do i continue to let her toss me breadcrumbs torture me and give me really nothing while i still grovel and let her pat me on the head like a puppy dog? WHY? am i that damaged by this? this is not me! Do i have Stockholm Syndrome? PTSD? What?

What if you do have Stockholm syndrome? or PTSD?  What would you do differently if someone told you, you were suffering from this?  In either case, don't you still have to *get away* from your captor or the source of your trauma?  What if you are suffering from something slight more limited than either of those conditions but no less difficult to handle?  What are you going to do to get the help you need, to do what you believe you need to do?

Why not just think of yourself as "addicted" to this girl?  How much heroin do you need to take before you stop being addicted to heroin?  What is your equivalent of methadone?

after 3 breakups and 7 months i still havent gotten an explaination... .  she says there are

"incompatibilities" she has identified... .  and my favorite... .  "you are so close to perfect but

not perfect enough for me"

really?

Actually I would argue that you are being "perfect" for her.  The "perfect" person for her is a person whose life she can come into and out of whenever it suits her.  And as long as she has a large enough supply of these "perfect" people, she doesn't ever have to face her own problems because she can just keep cycling between different people.  In a sense, people are her drug to use to avoid having to face her problems.

... .  "why cant i just end this" is a question i ask myself every single day... .   i have the power to not contact her and not respond when she contacts me... .  will i ever be able to do it?

You see, this is entirely up to you.  I know your *feelings* compel you do act otherwise, but it is your choice whether or not to act on your feelings.  In a funny sense, this is her problem as well.  She acts on her feelings as well.  It's just that her feelings change so often.  And she just flows with where ever her feelings take her.  Like a leaf on the wind... .  oh how she soars.

Your feelings are also taking you to many places.  What if you decide these are places you don't want to go?  :)o you surrender to your feelings?  Or do you do what you choose to do, and brave through the consequences?  When one stops taking a drug that one is addicted to, this is a painful choice.  There is the pain of the withdrawal.  And then there is the pain which drove one to take the drug in the first place.  Would you consider going to a 12-step program?  Perhaps for co-dependents?

i just had to do it... .  couldnt help myself... .  but at least it was the last time in 2012... .  after 3 days NC sent her a text miss you but havent been contacting you trying to leave you alone... .  i think its for the best i said... .  then i waxed poetic about i still love her so the friends thing wont work for me... .  then i talked about last year me and her on new years... .  SO maybe her ice cold response will really help me in 2013 go NC and free myself from this hell

she responded:

' i agree it is best we are no longer in contact. best for both of us . i too keep reflecting back to

 one year ago and how happy and peaceful we were. very surreal. sad. i greive for what we had.

 i hope this year brings a ton of healing for both of us. xo.'

I dont know why but it could just be the end of year thing but this time she sounds serious... .  im feeling hollow

really empty... .  it really feels over... .  could it be? she had broken up with me 3 times over 7

months and asked for NC a dozen times at least... .  could this be it?

Why are you leaving it up to her?  What if it is not in her interest to let you go but to keep you hanging, malingering so that whenever *she* needs you, you are there to be picked up and discarded after she is done with you.  She talks like she is interested in what is in your best interest, but I suspect that her needs take precedent over your needs.  That doesn't sound like love to me.

i guess ive figured that ill let her have her "space" and time and she will wake up and

come to her senses... .  i think that if i tell her i want her back badly or desperately it will push her

further away... .  like you said you get her back by not giving a ~... .  by being less available... .  

Let it sink in that she is not operating in the same way that you or I do.  She will not "wake up" and no longer have BPD.

etc etc. that what im trying... .  im great at NC as long as she doesn't reach out to me ... .  thats what i need help with

but in the end its a silly game... .  

It is *not* NC if you respond to her when she reaches out.  The minute you stop consciously choosing to be in NO CONTACT (NC) with her, is the minute you stop NC for yourself.  NC is a decision you make for yourself in order to save yourself.

even if i were to get her begging back in like many here have done its not gonna end well just like you said... .  we not walking down the aisle or staying together long term i know that but like a drug i just feel like id love just one more hit on the crack pipe... .  its sick i know i just cant help myself... .  apparently like many people that are here as well... .  so one day one hour at a time ill keep battling and hoping for strength... .  thanks for your input... .  i appreciate it man... .  youve given me great

advice... .  i got the playbook its all about execution now

So it's like "one more hit on the crack pipe"... .  what would you do differently if you found yourself addicted to crack?

omg... .  BPDxgf  just called i about jumped off the couch when i saw it was her... .  she wanted the

NC 8 days ago not me and so far i have contacted her zero times and she texted me on Thanksgiving/texted me yesterday and now ramped up to a call just now... .  left a VM... .  "hi its me

i know im not supposed to be caliing and i asked you not to call blah blah blah but... .  i miss you

and i just wanted to talk to you... .  im going to sleep now... .  hope you are doing ok... .  good night... .  "

i cant believe i didnt answer OR call back... .  could i be making progress? can i actually do this NC

thing? will she escalate the ramp up of communication if i ignore her?

Here's the thing.  When she texts you... .  that's contact.  Reset the clock.  Even if the text is just "ops, I accidentally sent you a text."  Have you considered getting a new phone number?  Or blocking her text number?  

It is up to you to decide how to maintain the NC.  And that means preventing her from contacting you.  If you leave a door open, then that's your decision to allow for contact, which is *not* NC.

Good idea thanks i will change the tone... .  i literally get a feeling of euphoria when i hear her text "bell" -- it relates back to the honeymoon/idealization stage when i got dozens of i love you sweetie type texts a day... .  Sad. Really sad.

That "feeling of euphoria"... .  that is your hit of dopamine.  You have been highly conditioned to anticipate and respond to any kind of contact from her.  In a sense, you've been brainwashed.  What would you do if you found yourself brainwashed in a way that you did not want to be brainwashed?

Here's the thing... .  

I do not mind how many times you go through this cycle.  Your cycle.  This is your merry-go-round of pain, not mine.  I have sympathy for what you are experiencing.  And I can only keep up with it for so much before I limit it myself because it's still to some degree a painful place for me to recall being.  You will still find people here who you can commiserate with.  But there may come a point in time where you need to ask yourself if this is only serving to enable you to continue this unpleasant cycle you find yourself in.  And if you make that determination, you may find that you will need to step up your game.  Or even worse, someone else here will insist that you do... .  that person will not be me.  But there are people who are responsible for moderating these boards, who may give you a nudge or two.  It's happened before to people such as you or me.  And as much as we want to help each member of our community, we also need to decide when we are actually helping, or only enabling someone that may have a problem.  And if a nudge is what you need to get the help that you need, then so be it.  After all, you are worth the effort.

Best wishes, Schwing

[tuum est61]

No she hasn't asked directly but I volunteered to take her to her doc apt

Friday (she's worried) but she said her Dad will go and she will call me right when she gets out. NC again today so who knows. its BRUTAL !

Chuck

Speaking of "nudges", have you managed to NOT "volunteer" to "help" with the dog or any more of HER stuff?

The first few times you stop being "helpful" is brutal but it gets better.  

[chuckstrong]

Schwing

Thank YOU! great observations and insight... .  you really have a great

handle on the intracacies of this brutal affliction BPD... .  i am trying SO hard to heed

yours and others advice here from veterans that have been down the road if you will.

its SO hard tho... .  i could read something and then turn around and do the opposite five minutes later... .  eventually i hope i tire of all this and actually move on. NO MATTER what i do she will

always have BPD. Sad but true. Maybe just maybe someday I will realize that and stick with total NC to facilitate my healing and preverve whatever sanity i may have left.

Chuck

[patientandclear]

Chuck,

For what it's worth, there's no race to start NC. When you're ready, & you'd rather deal w/that sadness than the sadness you experience with contact, do it then.  I started NC perhaps before I was ready. I had a lot of regret & uncertainty about it, which made sustaining it harder.  I sobbed and sobbed the day I sent the message saying I needed to say goodbye.

I think NC was essential for me. It prevented some really damaging & humiliating interactions and got me up off my knees. Eventually that allowed me to reconnect w/my ex on stronger terms (not saying that should or would be part of your path).

But I think maybe it would have been easier had I given myself even a few more days to start it. I wasn't quite prepared and it felt like I was wounding myself, not taking care of myself.

[tuum est61]

Listen to what P and C says about NC.  View NC as a tool, not a goal.

As I have suggested, work on "NH" (Not Helping) and validation of her feelings if she complains about the NA (New Approach). That limits the contact but doesn't enmesh you in things she is perfectly capable of handling herself.  

[chuckstrong]

Hi all:

UPDATE as follows... .  trying to heed all the great advice and guidance here

... .  seems my options are: continuing the "old pals" supportive Chuck routine or going NC and explaining to her that I need space and time in light of where she is at and i accept her feelings as they are. As much as I would

like to think option #3 (returning to inimate/romantic relationship) is possible

i am accepting the fact it is not... .  So as P&C suggested I am planning to slowly take my time to determine which of the other 2 options(NC or pals) is more pallatable for me. in the mean time I am going to attempt to be less available /helpful and lovingly detach and depersonalize the situation. We have been in contact lately every other day or so by phone and freqently by text. She is having a medical procedure today she is quite worried about (i offered earlier to take her) so this morning i sent her a brief text wishing her luck... .  she responded with the following text:

" Thank Youuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu! You are too kind to me. I am

   undeserving. o."

SO, thats where we are at. Its so draining and tiring. I am drained. I am

tired. But, Ill keep reading keep learning keep accepting and keep moving forward. it was 5 months ago today she emailed me she was breaking up with me for the third time. Hard to believe this continues after all that time but from what ive read here it seems that sometimes it NEVER ends... .  God bless all of us here and thanks everyone for all the love and support!

Chuck

[patientandclear]

What she responded there (you are too kind/I am undeserving) is her core believe, in a nutshell.

Your approach sounds good.

[Dark star]

Hello everyone,.

I am quite new to posting on this wonderful website... .  although I have been lurking around and reading/devouring all the advice and information from all your very eloquent, articulate, wise and learned posts

I really am seriously impressed and overawed at the understanding here, of the intricacies involved in BPD.

I know I have found a totally safe and supportive place here... .  and that feels good.

I feel I have been through hell too,... .  but what a relief to have found so many people who have been on the same horrific roller coaster ride as me, and for me to realise now, that I am not mistaken in the things I have been experiencing during life with my pwBPD over the past years.

Chuck, all your posts mirror EXACTLY what I have been and AM still going through. It's as though you have posted all the details of MY story!

I have been dealing with this now for almost 7 years... .  and am at the moment a couple of days NC with my BPDexGF. OH! Speak of the devil... .  she just emailed me as I write... .  to thank me for the parcel she just received from me for her birthday on Tuesday.

We have broken up so many times now, that I have lost count. She lives in another European country, and we have been in a long distance r/s since 2006. (I live in England)

Almost every time I have been over there, she has broken up with me during my stay.

She has even told me a couple of times that she finds it ':)isgusting' that I love her as much as I do.

I need not give you anymore background, as, if you have read Chuck's posts... .  then he has told you exactly what has happened with me... .  for a long long time.

And you know what? I am STILL doing the same thing... .  longing for her to text me again after HER decision to go NC.

I have done this time and time again.

Text and occasional email is the only way she will communicate. I daren't call her... .  she doesn't want that.

But for the first time (on Monday last) I used the tools that I have been learning here, and did not engage with her as I would have previously, when she said in a text... .  after many weeks of really good communication... that she was in a mood and thinks our r/s is 'weird'... .  full of fear (both of us) and reluctance (her) ... .  oh, and that you cannot really call it a r/s as we don't really know WHAT the hell it is.

All I did was validate her feelings, said I was sorry for her mood, and that I will always love her, but was not going to hassle her, and would just leave it there. Then she thanked me.

I felt SO good about my self for doing that... .  

But over the days, I am still looking at my phone all the time, still feel like I am in a maze, not knowing which way to turn... .  or just standing still because I feel I am hemmed in with nowhere left to go.

She IS like a drug to me, I feel I will never really live my life if she is not in it... .  I feel like I am in continual mourning, and that I will never ever get over her.

She has been absolutely adorable at times, and very scary at other times... .  just with her 'silences'

I really know SO VERY WELL how you feel, Chuck.

The advice and information on this particular topic from you guys, as been so very helpful for me to read today.

I am going to try to stay calm and detached (with love) and maybe eventually try some of the tools suggested here, if given the chance .

A lot of times I think that NOTHING has got to be better than the crumbs that I get thrown from her, and then when there is NC... .  I think that a few crumbs would be better than NOTHING! It's crazy, I MUST BE CRAZY! 

When we first fell in love, with her consent, I sadly broke the news to my then partner that I was breaking up with her because I had fallen in love with (now exgfwBPD)

I told GF that I was now free... .  and what did she do?... .  the next day she ran away and rendered herself uncontactable for the whole day and night.

I should have heeded the red flag then and there. :'(.

Thanks for listening xx

[chuckstrong]

Dark star and everyone

Thanks for the post(s)!... .  its amazing the similarities on our situations here on these boards... .  so many people suffering SO much pain... .  it feels for me on this dreary Monday after Super Bowl that things are bleak at best but I gotta dust myself off and move forward... .  I would like to do that as soon as I can. But... .  I'm held back by my longing still for my BPDxgf with whom I still have communication with. I think its helping her and hurting me. We talked via phone and shared tons of texts this weekend but again the tenor is that of two old friends sharing some laughs. While I realize that friendship is the basis of any good relationship and hope is the back of my mind it could

springboard us back to a romantic r/s it feels more frustrating than anything

like she's doing me this huge favor continuing to be in contact. i'm the one doing her a favor! I need to stop. Not in a NC forever kind of way cause that

felt sucky too but maybe in a indifferent aloof weaning of sorts... .  is that possible? or is it all or nothing. Logic tells me that i've BEEN weaning for the past 5 months since our last break-up and if I haven't done it by now I never

will. Today I am again checking my phone and somewhat sad she isn't reaching out to me after I talked to her and her daughter (age10) on the phone last evening... .  I just cant go on like this... .  its literally killing me... .  I pray someday I post here that I am healing moving forward and have finally come to terms with this brutal affliction she has known as BPD... .  I feel like a broken record on here and that this post could have been( and probably was) written by me a month ago ... .  3 months ago ... .  5 months ago... .  its crazy. I feel crazy... .  but I know that so many of you are going thru the

EXACT same thing so that brings me comfort and some peace... .  

God Bless you all here at BPD Family ... .  We ARE going to make it thru this!.

Thoughts/Comments/Suggestions always welcome. Thanks!

Chuck

 

[Mike_confused]

4 days without a text either way from BPD wife... .  haven't seen her in two and a half weeks.   5 days ago she called to tell me all the troubles she is having.  she reminds me not to worry becuase things aren't my problem anymore (said she wanted a divorce three weeks ago).  She followed the phone call with a series of txts explaining to me how I am ruining her health.  She is having back surgery late this month.  She says I stress her out to the point that it has caused all her health problems.

The poor girl has no idea what stress is since she has been with me - I have carried that burden.  I guess BPD's do die a thousand deaths.

[chuckstrong]

Good luck there Confused Mike... .  sounds like you have your hands full

like the rest of us here... .  hang tough man... .  im having a hard time just because I haven't heard anything since bedtime last night... .  its crazy dude... .  

NC sucks... .  LC sucks... .  basically anything associated with BPD sucks it seems to me... .  

Chuck

[morningagain]

Because chances are, she has been this way for the entire duration of your relationship.  A broken clock is right twice a day.


Why not just think of yourself as "addicted" to this girl?  How much heroin do you need to take before you stop being addicted to heroin?  What is your equivalent of methadone?


Actually I would argue that you are being "perfect" for her.  The "perfect" person for her is a person whose life she can come into and out of whenever it suits her.  And as long as she has a large enough supply of these "perfect" people, she doesn't ever have to face her own problems because she can just keep cycling between different people.  In a sense, people are her drug to use to avoid having to face her problems.


Why are you leaving it up to her?

Scwhing - great post - a few things stuck with me

Chuck - not sure how much or if my comments/experiences might help, but here goes:

"a broken clock is right twice a day" - yeah, that feels about right.  or to put it another way, 8 yrs of marriage, and that (eventually) periodic but very sporadic positive reinforcement amidst all the pain and betrayal and broken values and shifting sands held me in

"what is your equivalent to methadone?" - almost 6 months since the separation, and LC with her in which I am able to hold some boundaries, yet she asks to reconcile - I have not said yes and am committed to not say yes - but the addiction was brought back.  Being on the fringes of the relationship is my 'methadone'.  Still a drug, less unhealthy than heroin (being IN the r/s, "all in", but without another methadone fix (been NC for 4 days), the pain and confusion of withdrawal is back - albeit muted.  Now, she hasn't connected again since ?Thursday?, though she left a message for me with an employee today that she is "low on minutes" on her cell phone.  Praying that I have the strength that I will not continue to participate in her betrayal of her bf  (upside down, inside out, with a few twists - I am 'cheating' WITH my own wife?) - and more than that, I need to tell her no to reconciliation that neither of us is healthy enough for this relationship.  That we need to proceed with divorce.  Will I even bother floating the "I wish you would get into a serious - even residential - treatment program?"  I dunno - she is a big girl and can and needs to decide this on her own.  Knowing that I want anything from her - even if it is clearly for her - becomes a leverage point for her to attempt manipulations.  frustrating and sad.

"why are you leaving it up to her?" -- oof da - been doing that for 8 and a half years - hard habit to break.  Took my first steps by not agreeing to reconciliation (worse yet - recycling).  By not calling her back after she did not respond to my call (there had been long periods of NC - she re initiated contact)  I have decided that we will not discuss our relationship while she is living with another man.  I have decided we will not discuss our relationship while she is not in serious treatment (either the 4 hrs per day she was prescribed or better yet residential).  I have decided to start down the path of divorce.  I have decided that, barring some miracle, that even with treatment, I do not want the loneliness of being married to someone that cannot return love in a way that I can recognize.  Can treatment change that in her?  I have my doubts.  Actually, I do not believe it WILL happen.

I need to ditch the methadone - get back out of the fringes of the relationship.  I am addicted to cigarettes, and the start of a quitting cycle sucks - the first hour or two or four is doable.  After that it starts to get more difficult with periods of near overwhelming compulsion.  Once stopped for over a day, I get blindsided.  That is usually when I go buy a pack - because I am not prepared for the sudden compulsions.  Quit for a week?  Oh... .  just one cig, just one drag - result?  back to the more intense cycles of craving.  i hear i need to replace the behavior of smoking with something healthy.  nothing i can do about the physical addiction but go through withdrawal, but it is the behavioral addiction that is the longest lasting and sneakiest to bite you.  after breaking that - by replacing with healthy behaviors - you can still get sucked back in by one dam#ed cigarette. Well - breaking the addiction to my BPD wife takes way longer, is more complex, more difficult, more painful - the addiction to her is unhealthy, destructive to me, to others, resulting in a toxic dump that used to be my life.  The dump is maybe half cleaned up after almost 6 months.  I will not go back to that drug and refill myself and my life to overflowing with toxins.  Gonna keep cleaning me up, my life.  I can't clean hers up while mine is getting barrels of green radioactive ooze dumped in it.  I clean mine.  She has to clean up hers.

[morningagain]

Wow - I just compared my relationship with my stbxBPDw with:

  Addiction to Heroin, and

  Addiction to Methadone, and

  Addiction to Cigarettes, and

  A toxic dump site

Sad to say - that sounds like it is getting closer to the truth

"I will not go back to that drug and refill myself and my life to overflowing with toxins.  Gonna keep cleaning me up, my life.  I can't clean hers up while mine is getting barrels of green radioactive ooze dumped in it.""

I have to break my own addictions.  I have to clean up my own life.  I cannot break her addictions for her or clean up her life for her.

[chuckstrong]

Hang in there michael 999

... .  the drugs comparison is a good one... .  i feel

like i NEED contact with her every day not that we have been talking/texting alot since Jan13 (12 days NC before that)... .  its so hard not to initiate now

especially when she has cooled off considerably the past few days... .  al her xh and medical crisises have subsided some im guessing so she doesnt need my support... .  who cares what i need! ... .  she knows i need the LC banter and to hear from her but she excruciatingly leaves me hanging and i have been intitiating alot against my better judgement... .  TODAY i am determined not to pursue... .  not to call... .  not to text... .  not to send her a funny ecard... .  she will be shocked i think if i can make it thru the day and especially the night without doing so... .  we have basically said (like good friends) "good night" every day the past 3 weeks... .  we are also 2 days away from a "no kids" weekend so it will be intesting what if anything happens this weekend... .  i KNOW i MUST do something/anything different cause shes just keeping me hanging in an empty quasi-relationship for her own needs... .  time i started(sound like a broken record i know) looking after my needs... .  

ole time/recoil/P&c/seashells/johnny o/schwing/CIF/OTC et al. please set me straight here!

thanks

Chuck

[patientandclear]

Chuck,

What you are feeling is the reason why I ended all contact w/my uBPDex after we decided not to try again to be in a romantic r/s on the advice of his T. Supposedly he was going to learn to be alone. Almost as soon as he'd proposed getting back together, he has another sort of emotional cave in, which scared me, & it seemed we were on a path to hurting each other a lot more if things didn't get figured out.

I said I could be in touch initially, & we tried that.  But it was super painful for me for all the reasons you're saying. I wanted more, & each time he didn't reciprocate that, it hurt & shocked me all over again. I was on a course of turning into a bowl of jello. I ended up lovingly but briefly explaining that I needed to find my way on my own if he couldn't be my partner. As I've told you, I wish I'd waited even a few more days to actually deliver that msg, because I wasn't quite prepared for the sorrow that I then experienced.  But I really had to do it.  For my own self-respect, and frankly, to honor what had been between us, I had to stop actively hoping it would be different, & especially, actively trying to somehow "win" him through my words & actions. Horribly distorting process.

As you know we're in touch now, but there was almost a year of complete NC in the meantime. It's still not easy for me, but it is fun too.  I had to regain my self-respect & sense that I do not need him, in order to be able to enjoy what he CAN give me, if that makes sense.  I don't think you're in a place to benefit from what she can give you--it just all feels inadequate.  Because of NC, most of the time now, I can feel gratefuk for the grace of getting back to a basically good, caring, loving, complicated, ambiguous r/s w/my pwBPD.  Could not have gone directly there--no way.

[chuckstrong]

Hang in there michael 999

... .  the drugs comparison is a good one... .  i feel

like i NEED contact with her every day now that we have been talking/texting alot since Jan13 (12 days NC before that)... .  its so hard not to initiate now

especially when she has cooled off considerably the past few days... .  al her xh and medical crisises have subsided some im guessing so she doesnt need my support... .  who cares what i need! ... .  she knows i need the LC banter and to hear from her but she excruciatingly leaves me hanging and i have been intitiating alot against my better judgement... .  TODAY i am determined not to pursue... .  not to call... .  not to text... .  not to send her a funny ecard... .  she will be shocked i think if i can make it thru the day and especially the night without doing so... .  we have basically said (like good friends) "good night" every day the past 3 weeks... .  we are also 2 days away from a "no kids" weekend so it will be intesting what if anything happens this weekend... .  i KNOW i MUST do something/anything different cause shes just keeping me hanging in an empty quasi-relationship for her own needs... .  time i started(sound like a broken record i know) looking after my needs... .  

W

ole time/recoil/P&c/seashells/johnny o/schwing/CIF/OTC et al. please set me straight here!

thanks

Chuck

[morningagain]

Chuck,

Have you figured out what your values are?  What boundaries you permitted her to cross?  Which of your values you trampled on yourself in order to avoid the consequences of her behavior?  What did you fear from her?

Take her out of the equation - what are your values and boundaries?  What would you accept from other people in terms of behavior and boundary crossing?  If your boundaries were crossed, how would you respond to anyone else?  What would you like your boundaries to be vs. what do you actually do?

To the extent you can write these out - they are all interrelated - folks here may be able to help clear some of the F.O.G. for you.

As far as this weekend or any day in the future, until you know and put in practice your values and boundaries, you simply are vulnerable to her (and to anyone else).  It seems for me that in order to start practicing holding my boundaries and living by my values, I have had to remove myself from the "near occasion of boundary crossing".  I gotta lift the 50 lb weight for awhile and gain strength before I can move on to the 75lb or 100 lb weight.

Get strong, brother.  That is how you look after your own needs.

Michael

[Moving On Better Places]

Chuck,

It's better to be alone, than to be with someone who will degrade you, devalue you, and throw you to the curb over and over again.   

I know what you're going through - my BPD (w/NPD traits) ex-girlfriend pulled me in and kicked me away for 8 months or so. 

I finally got so angry at her, with her lies, with her other guy "friends" and her negativity, that I mirrored her - I made it seem like I had 2-3 women going, that I was too busy to talk with her, that SHE was 3rd or 4th to ME.  She got so jealous.  She showed herself to be the biggest hypocrite I had ever seen.  It was OK for HER to have 3-4 single guy "friends" to talk with every day, but OH NO, I couldn't do it.  Wow, these cluster b's are truly out of touch with reality. 

Yes, it felt good to get some revenge - I enjoyed it. 

[chuckstrong]

Hi Everyone

My roller coaster ride continues--- and like many here I have wondered out

loud "does it EVER end"?... .  I guess if you make up your mind enough is enough and initiate and stick to TOTAL NC I guess eventually it might. I, despite the "Chuckstrong" moniker truly feel like "Chuckweak" as I literally cannot resist her texts/calls/emails. Even though its an excruciating "old pals" type interaction. I STILL walk on eggshells like I did when things were "good" and am constantly afraid any comment about sex or how wonderful our relationship WAS will send her scurrying again. Of course, like with most BPD's the double standard is firmly in place. She sent me a pic of me from our Newport trip telling me "I like this one" the other day via text and that she was moving some of "our" pics from her phone to her laptop. WHAT? If I did that it would be pursuing and trigger a pullback from her. So even now its an unfair relationship frought with double standards.

So, now I it here typing this, thinking about this, thinking about her, wasting so much time and energy on something I know cannot and will not work. Why?  Beside being co-dependent and a good hearted person why the heck do I refuse to detach refuse to move on?. I know she is hanging in this quasi-relationship just in case something better doesn't come around. I am tired of being her lapdog whipping boy and know what I SHOULD do but WHY please tell me WHY I refuse to do it?. I do take solace in the fact many here have it worse than me and have suffered in similar fashion for longer but it still

doesn't change my situation.

Right now this very second (after she called and we had a very nice 30 min convo last night) all I can think about is texting or emailing or calling her. Or

worse mailing her a Valentine's Day card. And one for her daughter (10) while i'm at it. What's wrong with me?

I am an addict. I am addicted to my pwBPDxgf. I need to find a way to hop

of the roller coaster and break this toxic bond. Any ideas? I have probably

heard most of them but always needing another reminder (or two).

Thanks everyone!

Chuck

[tuum est61]

Chuck - IMHO you are beating yourself up too much about the contact.  You are in contact and that is simply where you are at right now.

Staying, leaving, or undecided though you can still maintain boundaries - without NC. And you can look after yourself.

What did you decide not to do for her lately?

What did you decide to do for you lately?

[Moving On Better Places]

Chuck, from my experience, you will eventually get to the place where you want to be.  It might take a few more "push n pulls" but you will get there.  It took me about 15 rounds (yes, 15 times of my BPD sucking me in and dumping me) before I began to really get a good handle on the situation. 

The feelings are our big problem - we logically KNOW it's wrong, but those deep feelings keep pulling us into irrational thought processes. 

 

When I get tempted to contact my BPD, I try to come on this forum first, because there is always someone posting something that makes me remember that my BPD is REALLY A BPD, and she is NOT a normal woman. 

Hang in there, fight the good fight... .  

[Gaslit]

Normally, this is normal!

Right now this very second (after she called and we had a very nice 30 min convo last night) all I can think about is texting or emailing or calling her. Or

worse mailing her a Valentine's Day card. And one for her daughter (10) while i'm at it. What's wrong with me?

I am an addict. I am addicted to my pwBPDxgf. I need to find a way to hop

of the roller coaster and break this toxic bond. Any ideas?

There is an addictive part maybe, but there is also just the simple fact that you are fighting your instincts. That is, what you would normally do if you were dating.

You are not dating. And she is BPD, so she is sending you mixed messages, in turn, triggering your natural instincts to send a card, etc., as-if you were dating. Heck, triggering you just to be nice even!

But you know if you are nice, normal, she will push you away. You are fighting with yourself.

This is the un-win-able part. There are ways to flip the dynamic, get her to chase, but you wouldn't like it, and the second you were yourself, you would go back to the above. It is not you. It is her.

It hurts your head because it is un-win-able.

[Moving On Better Places]

You are not dating. And she is BPD, so she is sending you mixed messages, in turn, triggering your natural instincts to send a card, etc., as-if you were dating. Heck, triggering you just to be nice even!

But you know if you are nice, normal, she will push you away. You are fighting with yourself.

That is pure brilliance, Gaslit... .  

The fight within the self- and it is quite a fight indeed... .  

Half of me hates her, and knows it's no good... .  

Half of me loves her, and will do anything for her... .  

Which side will be the victor?

That which brings the most rewards, and causes the least punishment (according to B.F. Skinner)

[OKluvsCA]

I feel your pain brother. I've never in my life felt so drained and emotionally wasted.

I am at the point where I'm willing to let go completely if something doesn't give soon. It is freaking me out and yet life is so much more peaceful without her in it.

She left with no contact for two months and then freaked out that I had any contact with any other girls while she was gone. Turns out the day she left she hooked up with her ex-husband and had been with him the whole time. She saw him the night before I she contacted me again and went out on a date with someone else the night I saw her first. So freaking hipocritical... .  

I wish you the best. I'm reading a great book, Codependent No More, that is helping me greatly.

Just remember. You are not alone and take care of yourself first. She may or may not be around for much longer but you are stuck with you. 

[chuckstrong]

Thank you everyone

It is a struggle for sure... .  today being Vday gonna be tough... .  we( me and uBPD xgf) have been texting today basically about a job interview I had today... .  no mention of Vday gonna be SO hard not to send her a Vday ecard or text a   to her but... .  As many have told me here not a good idea to profess ant love or good will as to push her further away... .  so what's the sense then? why do we bother at this point? let them do work if they want we need to be busy getting stronger without them... .  so lets do it!

My wish for everyone here is to celebrate today as self love day! Lets all love ourselves first and foremost and let the chips fall where they may.

Chuck (getting stronger)

[chuckstrong]

Oh well

Had to do it... .  sent her a ecard... .  very generic... .  said" Happy Valentines Day o "

got a text response 5 minutes later " got your ecard. thanks. happy valentines day to you too"

despite what I perceive to be a very ICY response im still glad I sent it

she sent me 4 or 5 texts earlier in the day no mention of VD ... .  keep in mind i'm not even a huge VD fan but I will be dammed if I was gonna let her off the hook totally on this... .  last year we had an incredible VD

thought maybe it would prompt another NC request/pullback but at this point

I really don't give a f*** im SO tired of the pals thing... .  im gonna have to do it soon if she doesn't do it for me... .  tell her I want more... .  she's not giving it to me so bye-bye... .  do I have the stones? could I stick with it?

maybe and yes if I want to save my life and sanity

Happy Valentine's Day everyone... .  thank God less than 4 hours left of it!

Chuck

[patientandclear]

Hi Chuck.

Just want to ask, gently, why you "had to" do it.  What it means to "let her off the hook."  Having sent it, is she now on the hook?

I guess I am urging you to be more intentional and less impulsive in your communications here.  You are crossing a boundary of sorts that she has sort of set (I know, she's been murky, but she has broken up with you, so at the least, she is saying she doesn't want to be romantic partners, at least for now).  It's not likely to make you feel better or to make her transform her position into one more to your liking.

":)o not pursue a withdrawing pwBPD" is, I think, a rule on which there is pretty much complete consensus on the leaving, staying & undecided boards!  Doesn't help, no matter what your objective.

Happy V-Day to you.  It's just a day.  Don't give it so much power, K?

[Moving On Better Places]

Had to do it... .  sent her a ecard... .  very generic... .  said" Happy Valentines Day o "

got a text response 5 minutes later " got your ecard. thanks. happy valentines day to you too"

More than I got, Chuck. 

I only received a "Same to you. Thank you."   

[chuckstrong]

P and C

you are right ... .  I need to pull back some... .  she just called around 1130 I

guess she couldn't sleep... .  we had a nice chat and she thanked me for the card... .  but you are so so right... .  I need to chill... .  got caught up in the V day

for some reason... .  thanks for helping to keep me grounded... .  



MOBP

I kno its so so hard... .  hang in there... .  I will get better somehow... .  


Chuck

[patientandclear]

Just to be compassionate here for a minute, she sounds like she is in a very confused place.  She can't get comfortable in any position, it seems.  Feels bad being too close with you, feels bad being too separate from you.  It can't be easy.

[tuum est61]

Just to be compassionate here for a minute, she sounds like she is in a very confused place.  She can't get comfortable in any position, it seems.  Feels bad being too close with you, feels bad being too separate from you.  It can't be easy.

As Ive gotten a handle on my own emotions, I've sure taken more of a notice of my W's discomfort with hers. I really sense her anxiety over her conflicting feelings of wanting to be close - but not too close - since I can't be trusted.

Yeah, I suffer but I can rationalize and accept it.  I don't like it but the situation is not fed by any uncertainties on my end. She, however is in constant emotional turmoil - it has to really suck.  

It's honestly not hard to validate her confusion and bad feelings at all.

[chuckstrong]

So, today a few texts during the day and

a bunch late night where she tells me she's

taking the kids and the dog and headed to

Maine to see her mother for the weekend .

Was the first night in last 5 that I didn't get

a late night call. She joked a lot but her

coldness when saying good night frustrated

me and when I think back to how we used to

say good night it makes me sick to my stomach

and cry like I am now as I go to bed. I just

gotta face the facts. She has BPD and the honeymoon

stage ain't ever coming back. Face it Chuck

please and move forward. The daily contact is

nice and somewhat validating but it's not enough.

LC as "pals" still sucks tho but so does NC. I need

to radically accept those are the only two choices

available to me now. FC ( full contact)appears gone

forever. Makes me so so sad. This 5.5 months has

been so brutal. I need to heal. I need to move forward.

The sick part is as I do she will try and pull me back

in. How does anyone ever break free ? I am going to

sleep now but rest assured I'll wake up and text her

"drive careful " have a safe trip" . I literally cannot help

myself. Thanks for listening everyone. Gonna close my

eyes now and hope when I wake this has been a long

bad dream and she will be next to me when I wake up .

I'm guessing that's unlikely to happen. Sad. So sad.


Chuck

[mssomebodynice]

This has really be so torcherous for you, and all of us.  They are like the ultimate addiction for us non's.  I really want to scrape this person from my mind.  The pain has subsided a little since it has been two months.  Two months?  We have the greatest time ever and thats it?  I guess the answer is yes.  Some days are still not so good but I can say it is a little better.  I don't cry during the day and I also don't cry at all every day.  It is deep pain that these people can cause and that is why I have read so much about these people in reference to being 'dangerous'.  I want to keep moving forward in my healing.  Having the clarity of the illness is helpful but not enough for me to walk away and never look back.  I have to own my illness in that my wanting a relationship with this person who has devalued me is wrong.  I am obviously still very ill.  I too, no longer wish to be 'host' to this parasite.  Hugs.

[Moving On Better Places]

Just remember, your BPDex will do the same to the next person, and the next person, and the next person... .  

It's better to go through it now, than to go through it later. 

I'm in the same boat as both of you, and I learned I need to keep telling myself things like this to persevere and stay sane. 

[Leaf]

Hi Chuckstrong,

I'm successfully detaching now. For me NC only worked if I was furious.

I remember one time my BPDbf (now ex) was fixing up the house of an ex of his and he wanted me to help him, for free of course. I think I helped him with that for five days or so and on the last day I arrived a little later than he apparently expected and his evil twin appeared to tell me how selfish I was and that I never did anything for other people etc. I got so angry I knew I had to get away from this monster, but I also knew I wasn't angry enough to do it. He can't help it BPD blah blah.

So I went and looked for something to make me angrier. I looked for evidence that he was or had been cheating on me, something my gut knew but I never had wanted to face. Now I wanted to face it to make me angrier! Cheating is the deal breaker for me, I can take anything but not that. So I looked in his computer and found out he had been cheating. Then I got furious and then I went NC. The adrenaline helped me keep it up and I could detach and become stronger. That was last summer, went back that time though, but it helped.

At the beginning of this year he was telling me how disgusting he found me while sending an e-mail to another woman that he liked her very much. I'm so glad I installed that key-logger! It made me furious, I threw him out and went NC for two weeks. I got out from under his spell and noticed I felt better by myself.

Then when I felt strong enough I reacted to a nice email of his and we went to LC. Some texts and emails, out to dinner once a week and straight back home by myself. Weird thing is, because of the two weeks of NC on angry adrenaline (crying spells in between of course), I had detached from him so well already that I started seeing him in a different light. After two weeks of NC and four weeks of LC I don't even find him very attractive anymore. I had never thought that would be possible as he is extremely attrractive, hordes of woman following him. I see his fragmented BPD inside shining through clearly now. An lying alien shape shifted into an handsome man, something like that.

Chuck, maybe you can find a deal breaker you can try to face. For instance: do you think she's celibate?

What also helped me detach was to write down the pro's and cons in four lists like this:

WITH BF   WITHOUT BF

Pro       Pro

... .        ... .  

Contra   Contra

... .        ... .  

Keeps you from going back and forth. Just look at the list and you know where it's at. Good luck, you'll get there eventually, takes time.

[chuckstrong]

Chuckstrong update

Been talking and texting some last few days while she's in Maine with the kids visiting her Mom... .  She called at least once everyday there with some night text banter as well... .  Last nights texts were not the usual food/kids/general updates... .  she said " I'm trying so so so hard not to turn to you every day/night for emotional support as well as whatever f***ed up reason I still depend on you unfairly... .  probably because you remind me that I am desireable. Ho hum. I'm sorry."

Then later she texted " D10 asked if we would call you tonight. I couldn't so no. is that okay? having a hard time emotionally. Feeling like a chump. sorry"

Of course I respond with a loving a supportive text and say of course please do call... .  she and D10 call and we laugh and giggle for 20 min till she says she's falling asleep good night... .  at least half the nights past 2 or 3 weeks she calls late night to say "good night"... .  but during the day we usually have little or no contact.

The whole thing continues to be SO SO SO frustrating and dehibilitating but

I cannot shake the addiction... .  

So?  what do you all read into the aforementioned texts?

Please chime in and let me know what you all think!  Thanks!

Chuck

[patientandclear]

I dunno Chuck.  That would  be really hard for me, too.  With that much of an open door, maybe it's time to ask her what she really thinks she wants at this point?  Have you two done couples therapy before?  Maybe she'd be willing to be in conversations about what would be needed for your r/s to work for both of you. Seems like you both have a strong longing for continued connection.

Or have you already talked about that?

[chuckstrong]

P & C

no we haven't been to therapy. I would like to maybe go the route you suggest but I'm afraid of pushing her back into her shell... .  she may say" see

you don't get it we aren't getting back together lets go NC again etc. etc."

what appears like a potential open door to me or you im not sure is to her

so ill continue to support her and lovingly stay in the periphery till maybe she

makes a move that will leave NO DOUBT she wants to explore options for reconciliation or progress... .  im just afraid that her emotions change with the wind and today it will be a different story and like I said ill push her away... .  bout to text her " hope you have a safe trip home" as shes probably more than halfway back now... .  

maybe I should just roll the dice and do what you said because im just spinning my wheels now... .  JUST( an 1/2 ago)got a job offer in the town next to hers SO it looks like ill be driving thru her town every day now if I accept it! Wait till she hears this?

Oh boy P&C the drama continues!

Chuck


PS... .  my response to her texts last night was " don't be sorry.as you most likely know I still love and care about you and yes you are very desireable to me. I would let you know if it was a problem. you know you can always turn to me. so no apologies please"

so... .  P and C what you think too much? not enough?

.

[tuum est61]

Okay - chiming in.

One of the biggest challenges to being in a relationship with a pwBPD is not necessarily dealing with their emotions, rather it's dealing with yours - and one of them being your response to irrationality and double standard and just plain perplexing behavior.

I have reached a stage that I no longer have an emotional response to craziness (for the most part) after spending some time documenting it and studying it, and agonizing about the craziness, I kinda needed to "move on".  For some thats leaving.  For me it's being a new place I never thought I'd ever be.

If your partner didn't have BPD - just was a bit confused about her relationship with you - how strange would her behavior of late actually be?  She apparently cares for you, her kids like you, and you are "good" for them. What happened on the phone was okay, Chuck - stop beating yourself up over it.  

Now, getting back to her BPD,  

" I'm trying so so so hard not to turn to you every day/night for emotional support as well as whatever f***ed up reason I still depend on you unfairly... .  probably because you remind me that I am desireable. Ho hum. I'm sorry."

How did you actually respond to that - ie do you recall what words you used?  

[chuckstrong]

yes tuum I posted my response to that text above in my message to p and c

chuck

[tuum est61]

yes tuum I posted my response to that text above in my message to p and c

chuck

PS... .  my response to her texts last night was " don't be sorry.as you most likely know I still love and care about you and yes you are very desireable to me. I would let you know if it was a problem. you know you can always turn to me. so no apologies please"

This?  I am going to challenge you a bit.  How validating was this for her?

[chuckstrong]

Tuum

Im sure it was very validating for her... .  But its my typical puppy dog kiss ___ response that i just cant help myself from doing... .  But I do still love her and care about her and with normal people you tell them right? I'm addicted to her still. She knows it and so do I. So does everyone here. I need to stop. But the proverbial catch 22 is when I do she turns up the heat reels me back in and the process starts all over again. It never really ends with BPD. Sad. So patently sad.

[tuum est61]

Hi Chuck,

I challenged you because I can see you are stuck - not hopelessly though - notwithstanding you are apparently a hopeless romantic  

You aren't stuck because you love her - are "addicted" to her - but because you aren't adjusting your approach to her - which you admit frequently (eg. puppy dog kiss ___ response)

Your response to her text was, in fact, very invalidating.  

In one long run on sentence you told her not to be sorry (twice), not to worry about whether you love her, and that she shouldn't feel undesirable.  And since you were silent about her feeling she is relying on you unfairly, you invalidated that feeling too. (BTW - she IS depending on you unfairly)

Chuck, to get some change here, you need to change how you respond; you need to change your approach to communcation  - specifically you need figure out what validation is and apply it.  I am going to suggest you do some - or more - reading on it - and let me know what you think.  

Communication using validation. What it is; how to do it

And because this thread has reached 4 pages, I'm going to put a lock on it. Feel free to start a new thread on validation - or No Contact again - if you want - but hopefully you will see the value of moving on to a new "NC" - "New Communcation" - using validation.