How to 'detach' and set boundaries if they won't let us?

[BillTheCat]

I've gotten to the point where in order to make this relationship work, I'm trying to work on myself.  That is, setting boundaries, validating, and sometimes detaching to not take the rages and accusations so personally.

But what do you do when the BPDer won't let you detach?  Recently I've had my partner tell me they notice when I 'detach' when there is an issue (i.e. when she is raging about something I 'did' wrong).  And I have had her flat out tell me that I cannot leave the room when we are having a discussion (translates to "sit here and take my ~ for the next 6 hrs".  And to do anything otherwise is my being abusive.

I've read the material on setting boundaries, but what do you do when you get pushback on your right to even set boundaries in the first place?

[tuum est61]

Boundaries are actions you take - they require no approval or agreement or participation from the other person.

What happens/would happen if you just get up and leave?

[Somewhere]

I've gotten to the point where in order to make this relationship work, I'm trying to work on myself.  That is, setting boundaries, validating, and sometimes detaching to not take the rages and accusations so personally.

But what do you do when the BPDer won't let you detach?  Recently I've had my partner tell me they notice when I 'detach' when there is an issue (i.e. when she is raging about something I 'did' wrong).  And I have had her flat out tell me that I cannot leave the room when we are having a discussion (translates to "sit here and take my ~ for the next 6 hrs".  And to do anything otherwise is my being abusive.

I've read the material on setting boundaries, but what do you do when you get pushback on your right to even set boundaries in the first place?

Our house had that going on, too  Or at least was.  Better now, at least for right now.

Mrs. Somewhere (undiagnosed Very Likely BPD) is back from re-hab about 60 days now.  Eating disorder.  About 30 days back she was getting weird with our daughter -- trapping her in the car to rant about how terrible I am.  Daughter comes to me and says Mom is Nutz -- get me some help.  The school and some family therapists recommended Ala-Teen.  That was Good-To-Go, Green Light Action time for me. 

Mrs. has been in AA for years, now, and I have been doing Al-Anon the past few.  I first asked Mrs. to take daughter for Ala-Teen to our local, closest AA.

Mrs. started coming up with 101 reasons that Daughter could not go to Ala-teen -- even though it is maybe a 1/4 mile from our house, and some evenings the kids go along to hang out there while there is a Woman's Meeting going on that Mrs. likes to attend.  But that was on Tuesday evenings (when I am working), so if Mrs. would not take her, she could not go.

So rather than fight about it, (THANK YOU bpdfamily!), I found a Sunday evening meeting that I could take daughter to.  First night I did that Mrs. completely exploded at me.  I was already asleep and near midnight she came in ranting so crazy, I actually looked up to make sure she did not have a knife in her hand.   

I let it go for a while, and then said I was going back to sleep.  She then started yelling that I was being "Verbally Abusive," by not listening to her yell at me.  We had recently been sent some books on Verbal Abuse from Mrs. AA sponsor -- after I was being projected to be Verbally Abusive.  Fortunately I also studied that, and by now it was just seeming funny.  I buried my face in the pillow so she would not see me laughing, and told her Good Night.

She went on a phone rant to her mom and dunno who else past 1 am, and was still going on in the morning. 

But here is the point of the story.  Me stop talking the crap ended her dumping the crap on me.  AND -- the really good part.  Getting daughter into Ala-Teen has given her the coping skills and she has stopped getting the Trapped in the Car Rants, as well.  And daughter now knows what to do and how to handle them if they start up in future.

[garthaz]

If we are in her room, den, the kitchen or some other part of the home that she likes, then I do walk out. Sometimes she thinks I can still hear her. I have returned after a few hours, and she will still be rambling as if I had been there the entire time.

If she comes to me, I make sure I am in a place that I can be doing something else. Like the TV or the computer, or fixing something. That way I completely ignore her. She used to get upset, but now it does not have an effect. I have explained to her, in her more sane moments, that I refuse to participate in arguments and I will not respond when there is anger. (yeah I slip up sometimes.)

I am not sure if this is a BPD trait, but she does not appear to require answers during her ragging. That makes it much easier. It would be more difficult to ignore her if she would say "You need to be better at this, don't you agree?" or "What are your thoughts on this topic?" or "What are your goals?" or "What are you going to do to make me happier?"

It more along the lines of how bad I am and how I screwed up and blah blah blah, without asking for a response.

[Somewhere]

It more along the lines of how bad I am and how I screwed up and blah blah blah, without asking for a response.

I have come to view as someone using a toilet -- taking a dump on "us" as it were.

The folks dumping their crap do not really want the toilet to talk back.

You are supposed to just stand there and take the crap.

Are you a little more clear on the roles, now?    

[tuum est61]

Staying with the toilet analogy, validating how they are feeling after they "unload" is akin to flushing.  You can just sit there like a toilet and say nothing - filled with "crap" so to speak or you can also acknowledge their feelings and, with time and practice, watch the crap flush away. (Unfortunately, perhaps, just to make room for more crap) 

I guess what I am saying is that not responding at all can be hard to distinguish from the silent treatment - which is just a silent form of verbal abuse  - and a tactic that some persons with BPD use themselves. A simple "this situation has you feeling very upset/feeling badly" show you aren't ignoring them and more importantly, can be very "cleansing".

[Somewhere]

Suppose that might work, were I (or the kids) a toilet.

We had a talk about iit and decided we were not.

Storyline goes like this:

A Bear and a Rabbit are out in the Spring eating berries.  After awhile both had to take a dump.  The Rabbit goes to edge of the woods and poops out his little poops.  The Bear comes over and lets the crap fly.  And then rants, "I hate the way this S**t sticks to my fur!"  The Rabbit mentions that it does not stick to his fur.  The Bear looks over at the Rabbit and says, "In that case you will not mind . . ."  And the Bear grabs the Rabbit and uses the Rabbit as toilet paper . . .

While Momma was away at rehab, we decided we would quit being the Rabbit.

First big blow-up and I quit being the Rabbit -- sort of set the New Order.  Been running on that about 8 weeks, now.

My 10 year old daughter came and thanked me for stopping being the Rabbit.  Said she would have ran-away if I had not.  :)aughter became the next target and we got her help with Ala-Teen.  Momma has chilled on the Toilet and Paper routines on us around here.

The Crap Stops when we say so.  

[tuli]

Yes, somewhere.  Excellent storytelling indeed.  This is how it works in my house as well.  People only do what they do because we let them.  When it stops working on us, magically, they stop the behavior that we have been somehow led to believe they are helpless to stop.  I no longer have this behavior in my home either.  Apparently it was not a medical problem at all.  Who knew.  Story well told!

[Somewhere]

I guess it is kind of a Tough Love thing.  For now, it is holding the line, until/if/when can do better.

Dunno.

But from what I have read of the DBT type stuff -- I cannot pull that off yet, as she is smart enough to know that the, "I understand you are full of crap and think of us as your toilet . . ."    part was pretty much fake, and would really enrage her.

Trying to get us into a couples thing with a guy that seems pretty smart into DBT and BPD -- but she read BPD in his credentials, and does not want anything to do with him. 

www.therapists.psychologytoday.com/rms/name/Benjamin_Brockman_LPC,MA,NCC_Plano_Texas_99807

We could really use some professional help, as our 8 year old son has some of the same symptoms (rage bursts) that Mrs. Somewhere did at that age.  And even if she wants to keep limping through life as she is, I want our son to have the option of a good, full, life.

[tuum est61]

Somewhere,

Its great that you've found support thought the 'anon groups for you and your daughter.  

So where do you think you are at in your relationship right now with your W and where do you think it is going?

I ask - even for my own purposes, because I always consider myself "undecided" yet try to find the balance that keeps my boundaries yet permits intimacy - and that is hard.

Keep us posted on any developments - perhaps by starting a new thread - in your relationship as you makes these changes.    

[tuli]

I guess it is kind of a Tough Love thing.  For now, it is holding the line, until/if/when can do better.

Dunno.

But from what I have read of the DBT type stuff -- I cannot pull that off yet, as she is smart enough to know that the, "I understand you are full of crap and think of us as your toilet . . ."    part was pretty much fake, and would really enrage her.

Trying to get us into a couples thing with a guy that seems pretty smart into DBT and BPD -- but she read BPD in his credentials, and does not want anything to do with him. 

www.therapists.psychologytoday.com/rms/name/Benjamin_Brockman_LPC,MA,NCC_Plano_Texas_99807

We could really use some professional help, as our 8 year old son has some of the same symptoms (rage bursts) that Mrs. Somewhere did at that age.  And even if she wants to keep limping through life as she is, I want our son to have the option of a good, full, life.

Do not forget, AA has been giving amazing recovery to people with personality disorders for many decades.  Most people in AA have a personality disorder and the 12 steps are specifically designed for recovery for Cluster B symptoms and behaviors.  These people go on to lead very healthy lives and they learn how to be productive and very good partners without any specialized therapy.  Of course, those who do not get a sponsor to teach them the 12 steps will not recover from personality disorder symptoms from AA meetings alone.   

Not suggesting that asking someone to admit they are alcoholics is any easier than admitting they are borderline, but there are a lot of therapists out there who specialize in addiction, and most of their addicted clients will have had personality disorders, so if you can find a really tough addiction therapist who has worked in the trenches (rehab), they will know how to handle borderline really well. 

She doesn't have to know that's why you suggested this person, as addiction therapists work with lots of other kinds of clients as well.  The word borderline never has to be mentioned in therapy as long as you are aware that all borderline behavior is based on a narcissistic outlook plus a deficiency in character development along with an unwillingness to submit to societal norms, which are all things that very experienced addiction therapists will know how to address. 

[almost789]

Somewhere,

The story about bear and rabbit is hillarious. But i want to know, you said you and your daughter stopped taking the crap. How exactly did you stop taking the crap? I mean, what specifically did you do that stopped the crap from flying?

[Somewhere]

Somewhere,

Its great that you've found support thought the 'anon groups for you and your daughter.  

Amen.

So where do you think you are at in your relationship right now with your W and where do you think it is going?

For me -- only speaking that far . . .

Really does have to be One Day at a Time.  (Which is Very Much a declaration statement of most of the Anon programs).  I think we would both like more, but we can only work with what we have. 

For my own side, I remind myself that Israel went 40 years through the Wilderness on Manna -- One day at a time -- could not store it, but was always enough for that day. 

If I am going to do the His Will, His Way (Step 11 model), I really have to rely on Him to take care of the details. 

I ask - even for my own purposes, because I always consider myself "undecided" yet try to find the balance that keeps my boundaries yet permits intimacy - and that is hard.

No reall wisdom here.  Been Studying Chapter 9 (The Family Afterward) of the "enemy" side -- The AA Big Book.  (joking about the enemy part -- more like Sun Tzu Art of War Enemy -- Study Them.)

Just search those words, or a PDF is here >>  

www.aa.org/bigbookonline/en_bigbook_chapt9.pdf

But that assumes your SO is working at least SOME program. 

They did "relationships" at her AA meeting last night from the 12 and 12.  I was reading Chapt 9 in her Big Book when she came home.

Let's just say we wound up with a VERY Happy Valentine's Day. 

Keep us posted on any developments - perhaps by starting a new thread - in your relationship as you makes these changes.    

And my apologies to Bill The Cat (great name!) for hijacking the thread.

[Somewhere]

Somewhere,

The story about bear and rabbit is hillarious. But i want to know, you said you and your daughter stopped taking the crap. How exactly did you stop taking the crap? I mean, what specifically did you do that stopped the crap from flying?

I call it the "N" word.






No.




Say NO.   and mean it.

[tuum est61]

Yes, learning how to say no - and not fall victim to the bad feelings and reactions it may generate in your SOwBPD is absolutely necessary.  You might need to validate their feelings around it - its easier to start with smaller things that they impose on you to "do" for them... .  you can say "NO" in a validating way.  These are real examples from exchanges with my uBPDw.  

Empathetic validation

"I see that refusing to return that item to the store for a refund has you upset with me."  

"I know you are frustrated that I won't pick up cigarettes for you."

"I won't be sharing your frustrations with our new renter with him right now."

As you detach from their emotions around those things, it enables you to detach from them feeling badly about "bigger" relationship worries your SOwBPD has.    As these are a little bigger, its sometimes necessary to use a bit bigger version of validation - using SET (Support, Empathy, Truth)

When she texts me accusing me of not replying immediately to her texts because I am out with another woman.   

S. "I want you to be confident that I am true to you."

E. "I know you get suspicious and worried about me cheating when I travelling on business."

T. "You are the only one for me."

(One time I said, "I've got enough trouble with one woman, I dont want two."    Wasnt funny for her - she only heard that she was "trouble" for me and I heard about it for several weeks - still do - though humor does sometimes work.)  

When she says I spend too much time in the park with the dogs and the people I meet there (which is no one) and I should stay home and finish painting the bathroom.

S. "I want you to be confident that I am true to you."

E "I understand that it would bother you very much if I were going to the park to meet someone when I take out the dogs."  

T. "You are the only one for me - the dogs need the exercise and so do I. I wll paint the bathroom when I return"

When she complains about her paycheque being all used up paying bills.

S. "I want to help making sure all the bills get paid. I know you want the same thing."

E. "Its hard getting all the bills paid."

T. "Im not able to take care of any of the bills you've been paying because my pay is completely used for our mortgage, line of credit, personal loans, and credit cards that Ive been paying on."  

It can feel awkward and patronizing to some extent - my W actually tells me sometimes she feel she is being patronized - but I validate that too... .   

[Somewhere]

Do not forget, AA has been giving amazing recovery to people with personality disorders for many decades.  Most people in AA have a personality disorder and the 12 steps are specifically designed for recovery for Cluster B symptoms and behaviors.  These people go on to lead very healthy lives and they learn how to be productive and very good partners without any specialized therapy.  Of course, those who do not get a sponsor to teach them the 12 steps will not recover from personality disorder symptoms from AA meetings alone.  

Yeah, Mrs. Somewhere's sponsor tends towards Control Freak issues, herself, but that sort of balances out Mrs. Somewhere BPD "control-me" features.  So the sponsor was pretty much the cause of Mrs. Somewhere winding up in re-hab for the Eating Disorder . . .  after the Sponsor figured out that Mrs. was lying about me not being supportive of Re-Hab for the Eating Disorder.  The sponsor was very surprised that she had been so completely conned.  

Always involves a LOT of Fact Checking.  The presented story is rarely the full truth.

Not suggesting that asking someone to admit they are alcoholics is any easier than admitting they are borderline, but there are a lot of therapists out there who specialize in addiction, and most of their addicted clients will have had personality disorders, so if you can find a really tough addiction therapist who has worked in the trenches (rehab), they will know how to handle borderline really well.  

As a  HUGE plus and minus for us, Mrs. Somewhere is a Licensed, Master Level Social Worker.  

She knows the rules and the games, and plays them herself.  She REALLY REALLY does not want the BPD tag, and will do various Addict This, Addict That, to avoid it.  

Unforturenately, 12 Step Land tends to falls along the Addiction (only) model and generally does not seem to like to acknowledge the Real Mental Illness exists and can (and often) be the driving cause behind the various addicitons.

She doesn't have to know that's why you suggested this person, as addiction therapists work with lots of other kinds of clients as well.  The word borderline never has to be mentioned in therapy as long as you are aware that all borderline behavior is based on a narcissistic outlook plus a deficiency in character development along with an unwillingness to submit to societal norms, which are all things that very experienced addiction therapists will know how to address.  

She tends to study them Very In-depth, and if they are competent or have a clear understanding of the BPD issues -- she will steer clear.  At least so far.

[byasliver]

This is an old thread but it was just a HUGE help to me! My uBPDh has been very dysregulated for the last few days and it has led to some talks of separating between us and his threatening to take our son with him. When this has come up in the past we both agreed to not discuss such things with our son (he's only 6) until we did it together or had discussed between us what should/n't be said. Just a bit ago my son came to me saying, "When Daddy moves, can I go with him?" I was instantly filled with some very intense feelings. I kept them hidden long enough to tell my son, "We will discuss that later, k?" He bounded off happily but my mind was reeling! I kept thinking, "He's breaking a boundary AGAIN! But how I stop this? How to I make him understand what he's doing?" Then I did a quick search in these forums and am I ever glad I did! I have also been burying myself in the WOE workbook today. The one statement that stood out most from this thread was "Boundaries are actions YOU take." Then I opened my WOE workbook and this is the paragraph I was on, "“Detach with Love” should be your motto. You need to keep your life from being a series of BPD-related crises. The message to your BP is: “I care about you, but I recognize that you must make your own choices in life. I can love you, but I can’t live your life for you. I can point you in the right direction, but I can’t push you down the path.” The BP is responsible for the crises she creates. It is a BPD trait to create dramas, consciously or unconsciously. You can make those emotional dramas your problem, or you can let the BP handle them as best she can (given the appropriateness of the situation and the age of the BP). If you take responsibility for the BP’s chaos, you risk reinforcing that behavior and causing yourself a lot of grief. If you let the BP handle her own problems, it’s more likely that she’ll learn how to take care of things herself or avoid dramas altogether." I FINALLY GET IT! The BPD behavior and all that comes with it is THEIRS and is about THEM! Boundaries and how we choose to act or react is OURS and about US! Crazymaking happens when we buy into THEIR feelings and behaviors. Those are theirs and there is NOTHING we can do about that. We can only own and manage our OWN feelings, thoughts and actions.

Here's how I relate that to what just happened with my son: uBPDh has been saying things about moving out, etc to our son because he knew our son would then make statements to me. In the past, that would have made me upset with uBPDh and I would have confronted him in some way about it which would have created an argument/crisis. Now, instead, I realize that just because HE broke MY boundary, that doesn't mean I have to DO anything. He is feeling intense feelings and needs an outlet for those. He thinks he can get me into an argument/discussion by doing things that have caused me to react before. I don't have to give him that outlet. OMG! AND I get WHY he's doing it! He is scared! THIS IS HUGE for me! Boundaries can also be a warning flag: a marker to let you know something is up. People don't always INTEND to break your boundaries and don't always require "punishment" for when they do. Sometimes you can just take it as a warning to be aware. Sometimes it means you need to reinforce the boundary. Sometimes it means you need to step back from the person who broke the boundary. But it is always about the choices you make and your wants and needs. Boundaries are not about THEM.

I'm explaining all this hoping it will help someone else, too. One thing I've struggled with all along in our journey with mental illness is that I kept hearing that "It's all about HIM" and I kept thinking "What about ME and MY feelings?" The mental illness is about THEM and their feelings but boundaries are about US and our feelings! If you want to interact with them and/or deal with their mental illness then that is about them and their feelings. But if you want to express your own feelings and take care of your own healing, then that is about you and your feelings. But you have to remember that you have no responsibility or control over their feelings and they have no responsibility or control over yours. We are only responsible for and can only control our OWN ACTIONS.

Ok, have things to do but then later I'm going to take some index cards and start writing down some of these really important tidbits so I can keep them with me all the time and refer to them often!

[byasliver]

I should add another thing I am realizing. I am a very caring person and get personal joy in caring for others. I have struggled tremendously with how to help my uBPDh but I CAN'T. He has a mental illness and I can't soothe him and he can't even soothe himself - THAT is part of having a mental illness! The only thing I can do is work on myself and try to minimize the damage and outbursts in the meantime. I am not failing him somehow by not being able to just talk things out with him or by not being able to help him "see" what's happening. He simply cannot reason things out like a normal person. He may be able to eventually but not without a lot of work on HIS part. Again, all I can do is work on myself.

Doing a happy dance! How relieving and enlightening this is!

[rollercoaster24]

Hi all.

Tonight is the eve of my 45th birthday, I should be feeling kinda happy, but I am feeling pretty miserable, anxious and understandably upset and angry. My BP male partner has once again, (usually a twice weekly event!) managed to instigate yet another argument, and silent treatment.

In reading what you all wrote about the toilet theory etc, I laughed, that just rang home so true!

I get this every day, and currently, his vents are solely directed at his elderly parents, (mostly his Father).

Some of the things he says, are disgusting, violent, nasty, and sickening... . I really am tired of hearing the same old stories about the same people, day in and day out... . I listen and validate, but there comes a point when I say Stop, I cannot listen anymore right now. With this, he gets angry, and either hangs up, or gets nasty to me... . and instigates a break up... . He did that tonight... .

I said that I have listened, and I guess when he is ready, he will do something about his living circumstances won't he?

Funny thing is, he said he looked at a rental today, and then proceeded to talk about what a dump it was, and how much rent they wanted for this dump. The irony is, he couldn't afford to rent anyway, the way he mismanages his money now, you would never rely on him to pay the rent!

Yet another drama has taken place in his life, so everything/everyone has to stop and orbit this event. It all started two weeks ago, he got $600 extra, (exists on unemployment payment) lives at his elderly parents, pays no board or other utilities, and all his money is his own, but regularly every week he is out of cash within a few days, and both his parents and myself, always help him out. He was supposed to pay his car registration, but he did not, so consequently, he is driving around in a car that is illegal, is falling to bits, and he cannot afford the petrol anyway.

Last week, I secured the contract at my workplace, for the up and coming financial year, the day after I let him know, he brought an unnecessary part for his project car, (which is miles away from being legally driven). He told me about this the following week, when his unemployment payment would be due, and letting me know he wouldn't have any money for my birthday this week.

I said little, but felt like he was taking advantage of me again financially, (whilst frequently and adamantly announcing just how independent he is, compared to everyone else we know). 

Tonight, between going back to his parents around 5pm, (after ringing and letting me know he had put something 'on hold' for my birthday present), he rang back an hour later. I didn't hear either my mobile or home phone ringing, as I was in my lounge eating dinner with my daughter, and the TV was on. When she paused the DVD we were watching to answer her phone, I heard the house phone ringing, and ran in to answer it.

It was my BP partner, and he was upset and angry, as he had tried my mobile three times, and now was launching into the Spanish Inquisition as to why I hadn't answered my phone. I said I was sorry, but had no need to defend myself.

He was cold and nasty and yelling in my ear the entire call, swearing, aggressive, and I really didn't want to listen. He was going on about his cell being stolen, and how he wanted me to know, incase I messaged him Goodnight, or tried to call him later. I said I was Sorry to hear his phone had been stolen, and that at least there was no credit on it anyway, (he never puts any on it). I said Thanks for letting me know, and that I guess he would have to call me, until we organised him another cell. Well, that wasn't good enough, I had to bear the full frontal of his anger, and rage. Screaming down my ear, telling me how I was the only reason he is in this part of the country, that his parents don't give a damn about him, (whilst he is again using their phone for free mind you!), that I am the only person he is in contact over here, (I get told this all the time by the way), and that he would be leaving here, if it wasn't for me... .

This place sucks.

Interestingly, he came back to this state, because after several escapes to the other side of the country, he said the Eastern States suck, and how great it was here in comparison. I wonder if he knows himself?

The other interesting part, is that whilst he has sworn absolute independence all his life, for the past 13 years, he has been backwards and forwards to his parents, every time he runs out of money or jobs, and has nowhere else to go... . Years before, he owned property, but said he got sick of sitting in it by himself, so he decided to go travel, and see the country... . He did this, and says he spent all his money from the previous property ownership.

Every day he complains about how hard it is to be him, if the week is going well, and he has managed to sell stuff online, (car parts he finds or steals to fix up), I never see him... . He doesn't want to spend time with me, when he has money of his own... . I find that disconcerting... . And, to top it off, when he has a lot of money, he disappears overnight in his car, to a city he likes to 'hang out in', frequenting the beach, tourist spots, and I can never reach him on phone if I try calling at nights, (on the rare occasion I do, as he always says he is in bed by 7.30 at his parents house every night).

I never had any reason to trust him, but I did... . Every time without fail, sure I had doubts, but I didn't stalk, chase, follow, like he did to me in the first year or so of our union... .

It has only been in the last six months, that I actually decided to check up a little, and try calling him when I knew he was in this city... . He always says he sleeps in his car with his phone, and doesn't hear it... . but then says he never turns it off, (like I supposedly do), or puts it on silent... .

This is such a lie. I have struck him turning off his phone heaps of times, when he doesn't want me calling or messaging him... . I know by how often it rings, or how quickly it goes to answer machine, or if I get a failure to send message... .

He even said he would turn his phone back on to answer again after fighting with me in the past... . (obviously he doesn't recall that admission!). This evening he denied all knowledge of being able to do this with his phone ever, whilst he was accusing me of being up to something or playing a game with him... . or bulls******to him like always... .

I didn't respond, I just said, "OK, it appears that you are the only one in our relationship allowed inconsistancies in how things seem".

He was too busy screaming and cursing to hear anyway, and it ended with F**OFF, and other choice words... . I was hung up on again... . I sat down and tried to resume eating dinner, but lost appetite... .

I rang his parents phone ten minutes later, and he had gone out, (to use a payphone to call me, and so he could denigrate his parents to me, the toilet!).

I spoke with both of them, and they said it had just been a terrible time for them too, the obscenities, cursing, aggression, and his perceived belief that they didn't want him using the phone... . They have tried setting boundaries with him over this, like not calling my mobile, but he ignores them anyway, yet never pays the bill, or offers to pay... .

Then turns around to me, and complains they don't let him pay the bill or give it to him to pay, (but he never has offered to either!)

Sorry for my huge vent, I needed to write it out, and get rid of it... .

I have set boundaries, over and over, and every one ends up being totally ignored in the end... . His parents are the same... .

[rollercoaster24]

I also have to listen to him denigrating my children at times, and other people I know and care for... .

Tonight, he reminded me how he doesn't 'need me', like he isn't emotionally dependent on me, and could survive without me... . Wow, thanks for that!

This whole time, I was listening, and validating, basically saying, oh, and ah, and really, and fair enough, and Yes, and hmmm, and mmmm mmm etc... . and yea, and Ok, and all the other listening statements.

and validating his right to be upset about his phone being stolen, and yes he has a right to be angry too... . Yes, mhmm.

None of this works that often... . More often, it seems to give him license to say whatever he damn wants, and get worse whilst doing so... . and for longer... .

which ends in my being abused... .

so you know? validating, empathy and sympathy don't always work... .

I say the hell with them... . they like the sound of their own voices and opinions too much... . this toilet tonight, is blocked and over flowing with his crap, and she hopes that crap flew up and splashed on his face... .

[byasliver]

rollercoaster, I was right there with you this morning before I saw my therapist. So frustrated and over it! So tired of doing 100% of the work in our r/s but getting zero in return and often, getting 100% of the blame. My therapist helped me to see that THIS is where the boundaries come in - they aren't about what your pwBPD does/n't do but what YOU will do. He's ignoring the boundaries because he can. Now the hard part is figuring out YOUR boundaries. For example, my uBPDh frequently goes off on foul mouthed rants around my kids which I think is inappropriate but the goal isn't to stop what he's doing but enforce the boundary of not letting it happen in the presence of our kids? So how do I do that? Take my kids and leave the room when he does it. If your pwBPD starts saying abusive things, end the discussion immediately. Leave the room, leave the house, whatever. Another example is that my uBPDh will intentionally bring up topics that will lead to an argument. I asked my T today about how to address those instances. When that happens I can lay out my boundaries beforehand. Lately he wants to talk about why I don't trust him but once we start talking he begins with a lot of blame and denial. So if he brings it up again, I will tell him I will not discuss it AT ALL until he is ready to take ownership of his own actions.

I'm not saying any of this to lecture you or make you feel badly. You feel like crap as it is thanks to you pwBPD. Just know that YOU CAN control your own environment. If he doesn't want to or can't play by your rules then get away from him or tell him to go - temporarily or permanently. I know you want to listen and discuss things because you want things to get better but if he isn't communicating in a healthy way, then it isn't helping. In fact, only more damage is being done. Don't engage with him unless it's healthy. I hope this helps! 

[briefcase]

I FINALLY GET IT! The BPD behavior and all that comes with it is THEIRS and is about THEM! Boundaries and how we choose to act or react is OURS and about US! Crazymaking happens when we buy into THEIR feelings and behaviors. Those are theirs and there is NOTHING we can do about that. We can only own and manage our OWN feelings, thoughts and actions.

One thing I've struggled with all along in our journey with mental illness is that I kept hearing that "It's all about HIM" and I kept thinking "What about ME and MY feelings?" The mental illness is about THEM and their feelings but boundaries are about US and our feelings! If you want to interact with them and/or deal with their mental illness then that is about them and their feelings. But if you want to express your own feelings and take care of your own healing, then that is about you and your feelings. But you have to remember that you have no responsibility or control over their feelings and they have no responsibility or control over yours. We are only responsible for and can only control our OWN ACTIONS.

    

Yes!  You've made my day!  I can't quit   

[byasliver]

Thank you, briefcase! I still forget this sometimes but it is starting to sink in more fully. I can't stress enough to anyone dealing with a loved one who has a mental illness that you need to get into therapy. My T is helping me so much with absorbing and understanding all of this!

[AJ Wrangler]

One long episode I had last night was all about trying to set  boundary, she started yelling at me again and told me to leave, as I start to leave the tells me to stay in the driveway. This is the one boundary right now that I choose to take action on, I do not want to be sitting in the car in our driveway, it makes me feel like a dog tied to a short leash, I have told her this many times, but as she brings up the ante to get her way, I usually just stayed or came back.

But last night, I listened to her threaten divorce, which I told her I was ready for, she threw all my clothes on the front lawn, and later brought them back inside, telling me she will not allow me to have power over her, this lasted about 3 hours.

I stayed calm the whole time, and tried to explain to her that I am not controlling her by making a choice about my own actions and setting a boundary for myself. Controlling is trying to make someone else do something, not doing something for yourself... .  she is controlling.

It's a struggle, but I do feel that I was true to my own personal boundary, and did not allow her threats to control me.

One battle is over, we'll see what comes next... .  

[tuum est61]

AJ,

Such wisdom from a new member!