Advantage

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

My stb ex insists that I made her quit her job when I married her almost 2 years ago. She wanted nothing more than to quit. Says her mom will testify that I promised her she could quit. She wants a crazy settlement. She is so convincing I'm afraid I will get hosed. I'm at a point I am bitter. I have been soo taken advantage of. She left her first husband and took nothing. I make good money so she wants a lot. I left her. She says she doesn't want the divorce so I owe her. No kids. She's going to convince them that I'm wrong. I know she will. I'll be paying for her for a long time. Because I "made" her quit her job and she now can't replace it. Can anyone comment. Tell me i will be ok?

[lost007]

My stb ex insists that I made her quit her job when I married her almost 2 years ago. She wanted nothing more than to quit. Says her mom will testify that I promised her she could quit. She wants a crazy settlement. She is so convincing I'm afraid I will get hosed. I'm at a point I am bitter. I have been soo taken advantage of. She left her first husband and took nothing. I make good money so she wants a lot. I left her. She says she doesn't want the divorce so I owe her. No kids. She's going to convince them that I'm wrong. I know she will. I'll be paying for her for a long time. Because I "made" her quit her job and she now can't replace it. Can anyone comment. Tell me i will be ok?

[livednlearned]

You will be ok, really. It will be a headache, but 2 years is a super short marriage, and your case will be fairly straightforward. In most divorce courts, the magic number is a 10 year marriage, and alimony gets paid out for 1/4 to 1/2 the length of the marriage.

If you've only been married 2 years, and she didn't work, there may not even be alimony.

You can get consultations with attorneys for a small fee ($50 in my area), and then once you've talked to 2-3, you'll probably have to retain them, and that can cost a few thousand depending on how complicated your case is. If you want to find an attorney who has some expertise with BPD, search for "high conflict divorce" or "parental alienation." They tend to be attorneys who understand PDs. If you can't find one, don't despair! Just ask them during your interview if they have had any cases where one of the spouses has a PD.

Have you read Splitting by Bill Eddy? That's a great resource to help prepare you for how BPD and family courts can mix. Your stbx will obstruct, most likely, and that will make the divorce drag on for no reason. People here are wonderful for helping you think ahead so you are prepared, making sure there are as few loopholes for your W to exploit.

The quitting/not quitting thing wouldn't even register with the judge. They hear far worse, and it will sound like quibbling. Not to mention that you may be able to get her to settle, in which case you avoid court altogether.

Once you get away from the toxic talk, your head will clear, and it will get easier to see this stuff more clearly. And once you get an L, things will get very clear.

[lost007]

I have an attorney. He seems to get it. However sometimes I'm not sure as he has seemed tired sometimes with the push/pull dynamic that brought me to this point. He feels maybe a little alimony. I wanted to hear from this board as it seems to be my only source that truly understands. Ad as I'm sure you know, with BPD she can sometimes convince me that the sky is red when I know it is blue. I'm just very nervous as the date approaches in less than a month. I read splitting. Made me nervous to need a book because courts just don't seem to get this. I appreciate your encouragement.

[livednlearned]

I have an attorney. He seems to get it. However sometimes I'm not sure as he has seemed tired sometimes with the push/pull dynamic that brought me to this point. He feels maybe a little alimony. I wanted to hear from this board as it seems to be my only source that truly understands. Ad as I'm sure you know, with BPD she can sometimes convince me that the sky is red when I know it is blue. I'm just very nervous as the date approaches in less than a month. I read splitting. Made me nervous to need a book because courts just don't seem to get this. I appreciate your encouragement.

Being tired of the push/pull dynamic -- what does that mean? Tired of you talking about your stbx and what she says to you, or tired of what he is experiencing through your stbx's L?

[lost007]

The push pull of she and I. I filed a year ago then put on hold while we went to counseling. So he has heard me say I need out only to give in to her and remain In the past.

[lost007]

Counseling went no where.

[livednlearned]

He seems to get it --

The way to use your L is to tell him what your goals are. His job is to tell you what his plan is to help you get there. If he "seems to get it," that concerns me. Either he is not working for you, or you are sabotaging yourself. It happens to a lot of us. We tend to be passive people who aren't very good at being assertive, especially when the r/s is ending.

You are paying him a lot of money, so make sure he "gets it"! He works for you, and should tell you exactly what the plan is. If you tend to sabotage yourself, tell him that. Tell him that you want to go forward with the divorce, and this is what you think is fair, this is not negotiable, and this is very important to you. Tell him that your wife is going to obstruct wherever possible, and you need watertight language with consequences for everything, and deadlines so that she does not hang this up in court for 2 years over small amounts of money and a ton of pride.

She doesn't want to work, you already know that. Expect her to drag this out as long as possible, and make sure your attorney knows that. He can't just "seem to get it," he has to get it. Otherwise, get ready for a long, expensive stroll through legal purgatory.

What happens in a month?

[lost007]

Divorce scheduled for early next month. He wants to protect me. I guess watching for self sabotage as you describe. My stbex told me she fired her attorney recently. So I don't know if that will post pone. I don't want a long drawn out ordeal. She is in my house and in in an apartment. I'll be fair. Just not sure she will recognize fair.

[livednlearned]

When you say divorce is scheduled for next month, does that mean you have already filed?

Or do you mean some kind of settlement conference?

Sorry for all the questions, but it's different in every state. What steps has your L already taken?

[lost007]

I have filed. It is on the docket. I'm just getting nervous. She is getting really desperate. Will visit with my attorney in next week or so. She is just so manipulative and deceptive that it worries me. I think my L is up to the challenge. Nerve just on edge as approaches. Have u been in similar straights?

[ForeverDad]

What has already been said is true overall.

Your risk of extended alimony is very low.  A worst-case-scenario estimate is alimony for half the marriage but with a 2 year marriage - and half of it separated - there is no realistic basis for any alimony.  However, IF you listen to her, "It's All Your Fault!" and so of course she demands you to pay and pay and pay.

So stop listening to her entitled ranting and demands.  Court will likely not 'gift' her too much.

Likely she knows her gravy train is ending (even as she's spouting entitled claims and demands) and she will try to delay, obstruct and obfuscate as much as she can.  The longer the case takes, the longer you're footing her bills.  She will make innumerable claims and demands, trying to make the case complicated and expanded.  Your job is to keep the case simple and moving along.  Don't agree to postpone court hearings.  Yes, some are unavoidable, but you don't have to enable her by agreeing to her tactics.

Do you have a good lawyer?  I don't know.  Fortunately there are not children involved, so it will be much simpler.  You've heard what we think.  We're usually not far off from reality.  We've been there, done that.

She is getting really desperate.

Be very careful.  When cornered or feeling trapped by events, they can make some horrific allegations.  For that reason, don't be alone with her, record whenever she's near you, quietly and without fanfare.  You may need it to prove you're not the one misbehaving.

[lost007]

How does one know if they have a "good" attorney. He assures me I will be ok. I just know that understanding this BPD has taken me a lot of time and research. Will an attorney take the time to do his homework? I don't know. However it should be simple. Intellectually I know this. Yet she does have claims of abuse. So do I. Ten fold what she may have. My attorney tells me the court will not really listen to that as our state is no fault. He says it will come down to a financial arrangement. Last night she text me asking for $2500.00 to pay her attorney to finalize the divorce.  Apparently she fired her last one. She is also trying to get child support from her first ex. She was afraid that her attorney was sympathetic to her last ex husband. Apparently her attorney knows my first ex wife as well. My stbex was concerned her attorney was in contact with my first ex wife. Paranoia. My first ex and I are quite good friends and our kids benefit from our relationship. I don't think there will my current wife when all is said and done. She makes me nervous with all her demands. She is so jealous of my first ex as she got a good alimony and child support. She also works quite hard and has made a good life for herself. My stbex feels she shuold have what my first ex does. Difference? We were married 12 years and had 2 kids. In addition, she isn't vindictive and can be reasoned with.

[ForeverDad]

You know how to use a radio, right?  Change the channel, so to speak.  Listen to something else.

Of course she will make these claims.  She's playing on your sense of fairness, compassion, whatever.  Sadly, you can't risk it.  Best to ignore most of this emotional pressuring, document it too in case it's needed later.

[Matt]

You left her, so you're living separately now - is that right?

And no kids together.

So just quit talking to her - literally.  Communicate with her only through your lawyers, or by e-mails, and nothing but practical stuff - no emotions, no history, no whose fault everything is.  If she dumps that stuff on you - "Two years ago you made me quit my job!" - just ignore it or delete it.

File a motion to have a trial date set.  It will probably be a few months out, because of the court's backlog.  Once that's set, tell your attorney not to agree to any delays proposed by the other side.  Tell him that in writing so he will have to obey.  If the court changes the date, there's probably nothing you can do about that, but don't let the lawyers change the date without your approval.

Once the trial date is set, things will happen, because they have to.  It's likely you will be able to reach a settlement which you decide is OK, or if not, you'll go to trial, and as the others here have said, that will probably work out OK too.

Also, you can probably find (or get from your lawyer) a copy of your state's guidelines for alimony and division of assets.  In most states there is a simple worksheet based on both parties' incomes and how long you were married, which courts use as a guideline for alimony.  Unless there's something very unusual about your case, if it goes to trial the judge will probably rule according to the guidelines.  So working through that worksheet will tell you where to settle - any less than that is good for you, but there's no reason to agree to more than what the guidelines say.  You can even show the worksheet to the other side - "Here's what the guidelines say.  So I'll pay that much and no more, or we go to trial."  If you make a formal, written offer of that amount to the other party, and she turns it down, and you go to trial, you can show that offer to the judge - "Your Honor, I did the worksheet, and made a written offer based on the guidelines, but she wouldn't take it.  So I'm asking you to set alimony according to the guidelines, and to make the other party pay my legal fees, because we wouldn't have needed to go to trial if she had accepted my offer." - sometimes the court will award you legal fees if the other side has been unreasonable.

Same for division of assets - probably an even split of what was accumulated during the marriage, but you both keep what you brought into the marriage.

As far as accusations, talk to your lawyer, and instruct him that any false accusations made in court, or in the papers submitted by the other party, should be challenged.  Your lawyer should check with you to find out what really happened (if anything) and then should respond accordingly - "Your client stated 'Mr. Lost did X.'  My client has never done X, and your client has provided no evidence to support her false accusation.  If this accusation is repeated we will take appropriate action which may include criminal and/or civil consequences." or something like that - don't take it lying down - make sure to put it on the record.  Otherwise it might be believed.

In some states, it is a crime to make false accusations in a court case.  You can probably find that law online.  It's rarely enforced, but if the other attorney is told, "Your client is committing a crime.", she may be ethically obligated to advise her client not to do that.

[lost007]

We are living separately. Trial date is set. This post came from yesterday because she got angry with me because she wants to keep a very expensive vehicle. I bought it after we got married. The down payment came from the sale of a similar car I had prior to marriage. She doesn't want to drive the vehicle that she had prior to marriage. Also nice by the way but maybe not luxury. And yes. I bought that car for her too. There are allegations. Some are true. Some are false. As in there was a domestic violence episode a year and a half ago. Im not proid of it. She had been pushing me around in the house. Bumping me for weeks. Provoking me. One night she was just verbally assaulting me to the point of exaustion. I aclled her a name. She proceeded to begin a physical assault on me. It was violent. I ultimately retaliated and slapped her. Leaving a mark on her lip. Of course she claims was essentially all me. I should have just run out of room but I didn't. My attorney thinks this is old news and not a problem. Just one of the reasons she and I can no longer be together. What she has done is just mind numbing. She only sees what I did in retaliation on a couple occassions where I could take no more. She doesn't see her provocation that led to the event. I hav not gone no contact. Still working through feelings, etc. However my mind is made up and divorce is happening. I will not call off like I did last time when we went to counseling and all the changes were promised that never materialized. I hav emuch sympathy for her. I did not want to have to leave her. I had to. No other choice. She is saying I am starving her out right now. I am giving her between 2-3 grand monthly now as trial approaches. I also pay the house note. All utilities. Car note, etc. I don't think she wants to face that she has to work. She hasn't found employment and we have been apart for almost 2 months. Im ready for resolution.

[lost007]

Keep in mind. When she left her first husband she took essentially nothing. She left him all furniture, house, etc. She had garbage furniture when I met her. An old car. He pays no child support because she told him he didn't have to. She was married to him for 12 years. Fast forward. Now she wants me to furnish her a new place with nice furnishings that were mine. Nice decor that I bought. I have financially supported her and her kids for the last 2 years. Really 4-5 when you account for all I did while dating. She wants the moon because I have money. And she "sacrificed" and gave up everything( i.e. a job) to take care of me. The care has gone one way here. Me to her. I have read about entitlement. This is it. It's awful. She wants the lifestyle. I was inclined to be generous. As time has marched on and her hate speech, distortions, vitriol have continued, I find myself wanting to fight and protect myself.

[Matt]

When is the trial date?

[Allure]

You do not have kids, who cares what she says and what she wants?

IMO, you are still too entwined with her. So what if she did not take anything from her ex husband? What has that got to do with your current situation?

If you really want out of the marriage, sell everything and give her half if you have to.

Why are you giving her money at all? You have no responsibility towards her. She is an adult.

Focus on cutting your emotional cord with her. That is really the barrier to your divorce right now.

[Matt]

If you really want out of the marriage, sell everything and give her half if you have to.

Unfortunately, after divorce has been filed, you probably can't sell anything major, like property, unless both parties agree in writing.  The divorce papers probably tell you that in the fine print.

Focus on cutting your emotional cord with her. That is really the barrier to your divorce right now.

Yeah, I think this is a key point.  A tough one for many of us... .  

[stuckinbetween]

At my trial, the only issues being litigated were equitable distribution of assets, and alimony.  The judge didn't want to hear about abuse and he said he wouldn't hold anyone in contempt for anything.  Has your stbx countersued?  On what issues?  If you can keep the issues to distribution of assets and alimony, it should be easier since it was such a short marriage.

I'm so sorry about your emotional distress.  Of course you are.  But remember that your mind is beating up on you and frightening you with worst case scenarios.  Your thinking is distorted.  All of us have experienced that.  Go get the book, "The Reality Slap," by Russ Harris.  Read the whole book and apply the mindfulness techniques.  They require some commitment on your part, but when you practice them, they really help.  Do this for yourself, so you understand why your mind is doing this to you, and how to counter it.

I feel for you.

Stuckinbetween

[ForeverDad]

If you are ever quizzed about any alleged DV incidents and accusations, defer to your lawyer's legal advice.  Likely he will tell you not to reply or something similarly non-committal.  If you reply, "Well, I did but only after she... .  " then all that will matter is "Well, I did... .  "  So be very careful about making multi-part statements, she or her lawyer or even the judge could parse it for the pieces they want.

Your lawyer is right about the time frame, something a year and a half ago is probably considered "stale" and ignored by the court.  In my county anything undocumented older than 6 months is viewed as stale.  And even more so if it is "he said, she said".  Maybe it might be useful for historical patterns but not as a specific incident.

Do try to keep the case about only the financial issues, that's what the court would prefer anyway.  Of course SHE wants HER perceived emotional justice, but of course only as it matches her distorted perceptions and piecemeal memory.  Don't let it go there, too many things can go wrong once the case strays into perceived wrongs, etc.  As already commented, court will want to keep it just to the financials, help the court and your lawyer and yourself by trying to keep things on track and simple.

[lost007]

Divorce date in about a month. Hesitate to say exact date as im afraid if she were to somehow find this board and my activity on it. Allure is right. Still cutting emotional cords. And still traumatized with what she might do. Distortion in full force. I can be hurt as I am fairly high profile in my town. It took a lot for me to say let the pieces fall where they may and accept the potential fallout to leave. And yes worst case plays through my head a lot. That's why im seeking guidance and I guess reassurance here. She wants me back desparately and is willing to do a lot to make that happen. It's not happening.

[stuckinbetween]

Good for you.  I think going through this can be as bad as it gets emotionally, except for a child's death.  But nothing lasts forever---even this kind of pain.  Other people don't get how divorcing a PD can be so different than other divorces.  We get it here.  I'm glad you're getting out now before investing more years with her, but it may be painful to sever ties with the kids.

[lost007]

I appreciate the support and reassurance. Pretty down yesterday when she started in on demands. I am afraid will have to be totally without contact. I'm just afraid what will happen. She will show at work. That won't be good.

[Allure]

I forgot to add... .  Stop all communication with her. Let your Lawyer do the communications. Yes, you will have to pay extra to the Lawyer but in the end, this will help you sever the cord and gain emotional distance so she cannot easily manipulate you.

DH has been divorced for almost 5 yrs but did not enforce NO COMMUNICATION(NC) until last year when the PC told them they can only communicate via email and cc to PC. Even then, XW still texted DH but he brought it up to PC via email so she had no choice but to stop.

Until NC, XW employed a lot of FOG(fear, obligation and guilt) to get him to pay extra whenever she wanted money. If she could not get him to respond to her, she harassed me or DH' parents.

I can tell you that the NC did a lot of good to DH. She still does FOG on her emails but she does not get her desired response. DH and even now the PC basically ignore her. They only respond when it comes to coordination of visiting time.

[lost007]

Forgive my ignorance. Can you help me with those abbreviations?

[Matt]

DH - dear husband

PC - parenting coach maybe?

XW - ex-wife

NC - no contact

FOG - fear, obligation, and guilt

[lost007]

Outstanding work. I see all these. Some I can decipher. Some not so much.

[ForeverDad]

From our Questions Board we have our famous FAQ list answering many questions.

From there you will see our link to common abbreviations.

[livednlearned]

lost007,

My ex did a distortion campaign against me. I think it's common among members here. There really isn't a good answer to how to handle it, or avoid it, or minimize it.

But I do think that giving into their demands doesn't make a difference, although many of us think it will. We think, If I give BPD this, that, and that, s/he won't say bad things about me.

Doesn't seem to work that way.

My ex and I did not have many friends in common, but he does know many of the professors and the dean of the school where I'm getting my graduate degree. Bleh. I was worried he would jeopardize me in some way, so I proactively contacted my advisor and the associate dean. I asked to speak to them in confidence, and told them that my ex was mentally ill and because of the nature of his illness, it was possible that he would make false allegations about me. I took the high road, but I also protected myself proactively. I did not say anything mean about him, nor did I drag them into anything they might not want to hear. It worked for me -- there might be something that works for you and your situation.