what will happen if I am irreverant about our most special time together?

[patientandclear]

I'm emailing uBPDexbf.  As many of you know, he is off on a ramble of undetermined length & destination, throughout the US and probably elsewhere.  Turns out, he is in the town he & I visited together the weekend before he suddenly broke up with me.  We had the most romantic, intimate, lovely time together.  I felt closer to him then than I have ever felt to another person.  At the time, he said he felt the same.

So he's writing from there and makes an off-hand reference to that trip, and then talks about how much he likes it there.  He is just now getting around to telling me that he is even in that town ... .  in my response, I want to say "oh, you're in [X town].  I like it too.  (Did we go there?)"

I want to say that ... .  because it is so weird that we never, ever, discuss or acknowledge that we were together in that way before we began this odd friendship thing.  The sarcasm is in keeping with our usual banter & my personality, and if I were not living on eggshells with this guy, I would send it in a heartbeat.

But I don't want to be extremely hurtful to him.  That was a very tender, precious time to both of us, and I imagine it still is, somewhere, deep down, to him.

So my question is whether, in your experience with your BPD SOs, flip comments about something emotionally significant to you as a couple BY YOU would necessarily go badly.

I have to say there is a part of me that is sick of him always being the one who is sort of dismissive of our significance to one another (e.g., by leaving) & I am the one who always overtly affirms it (e.g., by saying "I'll miss you when you go".  If we're going to pretend we never had this other significance to one another, it feels good to make an overt reference to that, you know?

Would appreciate your advice.  Going to sleep & not sending till morning.

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Rockylove]

The best advice anyone ever gave me was be yourself.  I'll just leave it at that.

[123Phoebe]

So my question is whether, in your experience with your BPD SOs, flip comments about something emotionally significant to you as a couple BY YOU would necessarily go badly.

Hey P&C,

Go badly in what way?  What are you concerned about happening/not happening if you make a flip comment?

The thing about 'flip comments' is that they're usually said off the cuff; something that comes to mind right then, not something that's thought out, analyzed and slept on before making.  Otherwise, it's intentional with likely an expectation attached to it.

It's not unusual for a person with BPD to downplay a significant moment or event.  It is a disorder of the emotions.  It's been done numerous times by my friend.  Used to tie me up in knots, until I realized down deep into my bones that he has a disorder(!), and I have no control over what he says, does or feels, based on what I say or how I feel about 'us'-- past, present or future.  Sometimes it seems like I have an impact, but the reality is, I don't.  Actions (based on MY true feelings) have spoken much louder than any words I could ever possibly say.  And then, there's always the disorder that does a lot of the talking... .  

I guess my question to you is, what are you expecting to happen with him and what are your true feelings?  He's off traveling around, without you.  He doesn't know if or when he'll return, but he might.  He's sent an email from a destination that holds a lot of emotion for you.

because it is so weird that we never, ever, discuss or acknowledge that we were together in that way before we began this odd friendship thing.

The odd friendship thing is something that you offered him, with no strings attached... .  

Are there strings or are there not based on your true feelings?

[almost789]

Do you feel flipant about it? If not, why would you want to ACT flipant about it? This is not genuine. Do you want him to love you for who you are, or how you can ACT and manuveur by being disingenous? Where is your sense of self? Do you love him more than you? Are you willing to put on this act for fear of how he is going to react? It seems that way.

[rosannadanna]

Sweetheart, how do you feel about him being in that town?  Take a deep breath, really think about what this experience is like for you as you are experiencing it, moment by moment.  Really dig down and get to the basic emotions.

You can continue to feel anxiety about potential future pain, or you can calm and sooth yourself through the anxiety.  Either way, you cannot control the outcome.

I have rally grown to care about you as a "cyberfriend".  We are here for you.  

[laelle]

Hun, I cant explain this to you enough.  Its not so much what you say to them, but its being able to emotionally deal with the response.  When your confident about that, you will no longer feel the need to say everything perfectly.  You are good enough as is.

Its not about him, its about you.  I can tell my bf anything I like, but I have to emotionally be able to deal with his response and react as necessary.  I know this is me and not him.  Are you unsure of your ability to emotionally deal with his responses?  Why does each response have to be a make or break response?  Is it really this way, or is it simply your fear?

[patientandclear]

Hi cyberfriends!  

I hear you about being able to deal with his response, Laelle, but you ARE careful about what you say to your bf, no?  You don't JADE, you don't invalidate.  And folks on this board try out potential responses to their pwBPD frequently to make sure they're not inadvertently doing something that's going to be harmful.  Phoebe, you asked what I'm afraid of -- just that this little comment might really hurt him.

I'm not worried about what I say to him in general.  I am wondering about this particular comment because it plays at negating this special time we had.  No, I'm not afraid of his reaction.  But I don't want to hurt him.

If I reverse the roles and I made a reference to that trip & he replied to me "did we go there?", playing at not remembering, I'd be mighty hurt.  That probably means I shouldn't say it.  Seems like I'm trying to say with a little offhand comment something I should really just actually say, at some point, if I really need to communicate it to him -- that's it's weird that all of that between us goes unspoken and seems to have just been papered over.  I'm as responsible for that as he is-I've never brought it up since we reconnected, and I actually asked that we not discuss love and his uncertainty about whether it's ever real because it was very hard for me to hear.  And frankly, he acknowledged the trip and that he remembers it in his quick reference yesterday.  He wasn't sarcastic or dismissive.

Phoebe's point that I voluntarily chose this is right.  Seems like my little dig is a passive aggressive way of saying I'm unhappy with how this has all worked out.  Which I am (I wanted him to be who he appeared to be, be capable of what he said he was, back then -- but he isn't).  This current deal is just the best of the available options, I've decided, but you're right Phoebe, I am doing this voluntarily.  No, there are not strings, or I don't want there to be.  I think I'm wanting him to respond to my feelings of sadness about how things are, when I really need to deal with them on my own.

SummerT321 -- that trip was super important to me but I am capable, being my true self, of being flippant about it, sure.  I was going to write "I'm not trying to gain anything by saying it," but actually, maybe you're onto something.  I sort of am trying to make him understand my pain, my sense of loss, with this little remark, which doesn't at all reflect my true feelings.

Rosanna, I don't feel bad or good that he's in that town, per se, but I do feel so much sadness that we can't be together as a couple, and remembering that trip is an instant recipe for feeling that sadness.  (And, I care about you too!  Thanks for all the insights.  I am mulling them over.)

BTW, for those following the "hermit discussion" on my last thread, I was looking for something we emailed each other about months ago, last night, & saw that, just as we were reconnecting, he was writing tons about the need to "individuate" and "be free" of entanglements and relationships.  This freedom he's experiencing by shaking off all ties and wandering -- it's really important to him.  He's been telling me that since practically the minute we met up again.  He quoted a song lyric: "once you were tethered, now you are free."  He meant not only from romantic ties but also the daily needs of his kids, now grown, and obligations to his problematic family, from whom he's been working on separating.  It's really a strong impulse he's following, it seems.  I don't think he has any sense of how a mature, healthy r/s could fit into that.  It seems like he opposes the idea of relationships to this idea of freedom, and like I said on the other thread, it's like he is almost falling in love with himself (not in a NPD way, in a healthy self-affirming way) for the first time.

[rosannadanna]

You wrote:

So he's writing from there and makes an off-hand reference to that trip, and then talks about how much he likes it there.  He is just now getting around to telling me that he is even in that town ... .  in my response, I want to say "oh, you're in [X town].  I like it too.  (Did we go there?)"

I want to say that ... .  because it is so weird that we never, ever, discuss or acknowledge that we were together in that way before we began this odd friendship thing.

It sounds like you want to react with a sarcastic response.  Sarcasm is passive-aggressive.  Passive-aggressive responses are a way to respond with anger covertly.  So it sounds like you are angry with both his off-hand way of talking about where he is and his boundary of never talking about your previous romantic relationship.

You also wrote:

I have to say there is a part of me that is sick of him always being the one who is sort of dismissive of our significance to one another (e.g., by leaving) & I am the one who always overtly affirms it (e.g., by saying "I'll miss you when you go".  If we're going to pretend we never had this other significance to one another, it feels good to make an overt reference to that, you know?

This is the dynamic of your relationship with this man, right now.  It doesn't sound congruent and it sounds like you have some resentment about the rules of this new relationship.

In order to truly accept this relationship in which you will have keep pretending that you never had this other significance to one another, yes I think you would suffer less if you cared less (you mentioned that in your other post). 

[laelle]

In my opinion what your wanting to say is neither invalidating or Jading. 

I dont like seeing you so tied up in knots.  Your a great person with a sharp mind and great personality.  Live your life.

[almost789]

I agree with Rockylove- be yourself. If the trip was supper important to you, don't play it off like it wasn't. Now that's game playing in my opinion. But, I am sure you have a different view on that, Patient. Just be yourself and yes like laelle says, you should becareful with your reactions to his response. But I wouldn't try this acting and walking on eggshells.

[SunflowerFields]

in my response, I want to say "oh, you're in [X town].  I like it too.  (Did we go there?)"

But I don't want to be extremely hurtful to him. 

As I see it, There is nothing in your desired response that makes me think it would be hurtful to him. Even less "extremely hurtful" to him.

The real issue here, I think, is that you feel afraid afraid his response could be hurtful to *you*.

Now let's dissect that a bit.

What could he say that could be hurtful to you?

Some options could be... .  

"I didn't mean it that way... .  why do you always have to be like that... .  "

"oh please... .  why do you always have to ruin a good thing... .  "

"you know, I've had it with your nitpicking... .  of course it was important... .  you always do this... .  "

followed by

"Not sure I can handle this. Need some time to think"

Isn't that what you are really afraid of? His potential reaction of abandonment of you?

So let's think about it.

So what if he says that? What would be different than it is now? How would that make you feel?

Focus on that feeling.

Try to see what lies beneath it.

Once you master that, you will be on your way to better handling not only him, but I suspect other potential relationships as well.

[rosannadanna]

OMG, Sunflowerfields' post is brilliant and it made me think of couple more things.

You said that you are not in pursuer/distancer dynamic right now, but this is what you wrote:

I have to say there is a part of me that is sick of him always being the one who is sort of dismissive of our significance to one another (e.g., by leaving) & I am the one who always overtly affirms it (e.g., by saying "I'll miss you when you go".  If we're going to pretend we never had this other significance to one another, it feels good to make an overt reference to that, you know?

[rosannadanna]

oops sorry sent post prematurely

ok so you wrote:

I have to say there is a part of me that is sick of him always being the one who is sort of dismissive of our significance to one another (e.g., by leaving) & I am the one who always overtly affirms it (e.g., by saying "I'll miss you when you go".  If we're going to pretend we never had this other significance to one another, it feels good to make an overt reference to that, you know?

You actually define it as him leaving and you saying I'll miss you.  Ok you are not saying Don't leave, b/c you don't want to pursue, and that is a good start

But really, as I think about it, your experience sounds like a recycle, devalue, and discard experience and you may have feelings along those lines right about now.  Granted it is only a partial recycle b/c of his skittishness, but you've been all in this thing since re-engagement.  He didn't devalue you, but him not wanting to aknowledge your past romantic relationship may feel to you like he is devaluing the past relationship and indirectly, you.

I don't know.  Just some random stuff to think about.

[patientandclear]

Not afraid of his response -- afraid that I will hurt him & do damage.

Rosanna, your observation that this is passive-aggressive & reflects unaddressed anger is right on. This isn't the place to work that out. I do have betrayal & abandonment pain that is not healed & that has been re-awakened by his sudden departure. Awareness of that on my part is very important. I think I need to deal w/that on my own, & not expect him to process it for/with me, let alone ask for that in a sarcastic way that plays at negating something quite significant to us both.

So--I'm deleting it!

[almost789]

I know you don't 'want" to hurt him. But you do know that all BPD's suffer from splitting right? That means that everyone that they get close to will eventually be split at some point and they will develop negative feelings either way, sidestepping being nice or perfect does not prevent this. So, I wouldn't be so concerned that your every communication might hurt him. But being genuine is always good.

[123Phoebe]

P&C, it's also totally okay for you to redefine what you want and expect out of this relationship.  You can make your feelings known.  He'll be okay and so will you

Things change, circumstances change, feelings evolve and change.  Life happens!  Not only for him, traveling around, finding himself, but for you... .    You have a life, too!  And I'm sure you're very involved in things and activities and all that.  Have you found your sweet-spot though?  Have you fallen in love with yourself?  Not yourself in connection to another human being-- yourself connected to yourself?  Self aware?  Self accepting?  The self that cannot and will not do and say things 'perfectly' every single time and that is simply perfect in an of itself?  The self that understands and accepts that yes, he has a disorder, but it's not going to define who you are right along with it?

Accepting that he has an emotional disorder is very important.  Learning to live with that knowledge and insight while not walking on eggshells and denying your own desires because of it, is something that will greatly benefit you and him, no matter which road the relationship travels down.

Be true to yourself!  Be the emotional leader of your own life!  If you want him to know that you have fond memories of the trip you took, tell him!  Ask if he went to such and such place and if he remembers whatever it is that you saw together or anything else you want to ask or say... .    If he gets weird about it, that's on him.  You don't have to own his feelings.  You have your own, thank you very much

I think you'll feel a lot better about everything when you're true to you

[Cardinals in Flight]

P&C,

You know, several weeks ago, my pwBPD (xg/f romantically), wanted to take me to our favorite eatery, the one where we'd been on several dates, it was "our place".  I couldn't figure out for the life of me why? for me? it was a very special place, a place where we'd shared many intimate conversations.  The first time she asked, I wasn't strong enough and so I said so.  The second time, a few weeks later, I went, and it was very nice.  But, at one point during our time there, at our same table, seated by the same wait staff who remembered us and welcomed us warmly, I became overwhelmed with emotion and had to excuse myself.

I gathered myself up while in the ladies room, and thought to myself  "What the heck was she thinking? she knows me, knows I cry at parades and she's bringing back here to our special place?"  In this moment,  , she wasn't thinking... .  she just wanted to come here to eat!  

I returned to the table and sat down and simply said, "sorry, this was our place, and you know me? the tears aren't the end of the world"

We were able to resume and have a very nice time.

My point is, I wasn't going to deny what I felt, and it wasn't my responsibility for what she felt either.  Try hard to be yourself, cuz you are really really ok just being P&C.  and you can't control how he takes anything you say or do, none of us can, with anyone really, BPD or not! 

CiF

[Themis]

Your posts always bring pinpricks to my eyes.   :'( Mine is close to doing what yours is.

I am here trying to reverse the painting black and stop it before it gets like that... .  so far no answers about reversing that.


If I were you I'd be authentic trying to play his game only got me in more strife.

Actually I learned something helpful:

Be authentic about positive things, such as that beautiful time you spent together. Don't ruin it, don't pretend like it meant nothing. You have memories that are precious.

I'm a super honest person so I actually have had to learn to lie a little. (too late) Where you lie/omit things/play down is about negative things.

I'd admit too much my own neediness, every little thing going on and just make myself look pathetic.

That's what I have learnt to tone down. If i don't have plans with friends when he goes out instead of crying like I'd do before and admitting I was lonely, I'd say: "I don't know" and pretend that maybe there was I was waiting to hear back.

If I had a great time with a friend, tell him about that. But an argument only served to paint this picture of me in his mind as someone with few friends or arguments with friends.

Depression made me talk about the negative, and paint myself in poor light. I had good times but didn't spend enough time talking about those.

Or I'd be excessively cheerful in an effort not to be negative. That's not authentic either. It's just trying to please them. Maybe if I was my good self more often he would not have been triggered as much?

So I urge you to be authentic, highlight the good, tone down the bad. I wish I did that.

[almost789]

Hi Themis,

I just wanted to say that you cant prevent these triggers in them by the way you act. You can only better manage you poor response to them. I hear alot of blame from you, do not blame yourself you cant prevent splitting in BPD.