do they know what they are doing?

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

Apologies if this is in the wrong section but its just something that I find hard to wrap my head around.

The way the pwBPD works on us is almost like a perfect trap.

The lure us in with the victim stories, seductiveness, mak. Us feel like the knight in shining armour. The most important person in the world etc. The idlozing gets is hooked.

Then the cling phase makes us feel guilty about ever wanting to leave and again boosts our ego.

And then the devaluation phase... .  

My point is, when they are in these phases, do they feel them or is it all a game and a trap?

Are we at that time, really the most amazing man in the world, or are they just saying that to get us hooked?

Hope my question makes sense. It just seems the 'game' they play is too effective to just be a part of the disorder.

[trevjim]

Apologies if this is in the wrong section but its just something that I find hard to wrap my head around.

The way the pwBPD works on us is almost like a perfect trap.

The lure us in with the victim stories, seductiveness, mak. Us feel like the knight in shining armour. The most important person in the world etc. The idlozing gets is hooked.

Then the cling phase makes us feel guilty about ever wanting to leave and again boosts our ego.

And then the devaluation phase... .  

My point is, when they are in these phases, do they feel them or is it all a game and a trap?

Are we at that time, really the most amazing man in the world, or are they just saying that to get us hooked?

Hope my question makes sense. It just seems the 'game' they play is too effective to just be a part of the disorder.

[crashintome]

I don't know if it's a game or what, but the idolization is so convincing that I have a hard time thinking it's "planned"

My ex went from telling me how much I meant to her, even saying I saved her life, to leaving me all within a week. 

[trevjim]

I don't know if it's a game or what, but the idolization is so convincing that I have a hard time thinking it's "planned"

My ex went from telling me how much I meant to her, even saying I saved her life, to leaving me all within a week. 

So you feel that the stages are what they actually feel and its not a game. That would make sense as to why they can move on to the next so quickly after splitting someone black.

[sunrising]

I defintely don't think it's planned.  My ex always told me after a devaluation something like "I never meant to hurt you. Please believe that".  I now  believe her.    

I believe the cycle is just what they have learned to do and it's all based on their needs and emotions.    A simpler answer... .    This is someone ruled completely by their emotions and whose feelings about the most important things in life change from one day to the next.  How could that person execute a long-term plan with multiple phases which would require completely control over their emotions?   They can't.  

[crashintome]

I don't know if it's a game or what, but the idolization is so convincing that I have a hard time thinking it's "planned"

My ex went from telling me how much I meant to her, even saying I saved her life, to leaving me all within a week. 

So you feel that the stages are what they actually feel and its not a game. That would make sense as to why they can move on to the next so quickly after splitting someone black.

In my opinion, they push us away when we get too close.  I always felt as if, right when we came to a crossroads where she has to either take the next step or leave, she left. 

I think my ex is seriously afraid of real love.

[sunrising]

In my opinion, they push us away when we get too close.  I always felt as if, right when we came to a crossroads where she has to either take the next step or leave, she left.  

I think my ex is seriously afraid of real love.

Being pushed away when they feel like you're  getting too close or the relationship is getting to serious is completely consistent with BPD behavior.   While a pwBPD is not capable of real adult intimate love, love isn't what they fear.   It's abandonment.  When you get closer, they see this is a huge risk.  You will become even more important to them, which mean when you abandon them (they believe everyone will), it will hurt even more.  The answer?  Get rid of you before you can abandon them... .    

It's a terrible disorder.  

sunrising

[GustheDog]

In my opinion, they push us away when we get too close.  I always felt as if, right when we came to a crossroads where she has to either take the next step or leave, she left.  

I think my ex is seriously afraid of real love.

The only place left to go in our relationship was to get engaged and for her to move across the country to live with me. After 2.5 years, and urging me to propose to her for several months, she abruptly bailed out, ran away, and shut me out of her life, apparently permanently.

Timeline and details match almost perfectly with her ex immediately before me.

It's not premeditated, but it is 100%, entirely, without exception, completely self-centered. My ex views her significant others as accessories, like a handbag, or piece of jewelry. It's all about an image and it's all about presenting herself in a certain way – people are objects to her and are extensions of herself. When her feelings about "who she is" change – and they change like the weather – then her feelings about what "kind" of person she should be with change as well. Makes you feel like a used car that's just been traded in.

[wanttoknowmore]

I dont think they fake it. I have experienced such a genuine and deep feelings that I am totally convinced that idealisation phase is not on purpose and it is truly what they feel at that time. Eye contact,the facial expressions, feelings,demenor,activity all match and indicative of someone who is feeling it in real way. How do you explain the real ,intense orgasm she started to have  and she was not even physically in touch with her abusive Ex H for 7 years? I can not believe that some one can be such a great actress. I think its all real. That is why it is so powerful that we struggle and can not easily forget.

[trevjim]

I dont think they fake it. I have experienced such a genuine and deep feelings that I am totally convinced that idealisation phase is not on purpose and it is truly what they feel at that time. Eye contact,the facial expressions, feelings,demenor,activity all match and indicative of someone who is feeling it in real way. How do you explain the real ,intense orgasm she started to have  and she was not even physically in touch with her abusive Ex H for 7 years? I can not believe that some one can be such a great actress. I think its all real. That is why it is so powerful that we struggle and can not easily forget.

Yes thats true, I just dont understand how their feelings can be so intense for 'the next person who comes along' after a break up. In my life its rare i meet someone who i can get deep feelings for, yet they seem to get them for whoever shows them attention first.

[charred]

The intensity of the r/s with a pwBPD is amazing, and from what I can tell all comes from attachment. BPD is considered an attachment disorder, in early life the pwBPD has abandonment trauma of some sort and gets very emotionally sensitive... they have an intense need to be with someone, and they build intense rapport with mirroring and flattery and seduction... .  and it is just what many of us want from someone, something that appears like unconditional love. As soon as we are fully hooked, it seems like the seduction ends, the doubts come in, and they start clinging... which makes no sense... .  then they dump us or become amazingly hateful.

I used to think it was all intentional, but my exBPDgf has been in and out of my life over 30 yrs time now... and it is more like an automatic script she follows. I think she can control the moment to moment content of what she is doing, but the big picture dysfunctional relating, just goes on and on, year after year.

[Take2]

Charred... .  thirty years of this... .  no I'm not surprised that its possible.

I guess I need to go back and read your story... .  

Its just so unbelievably exhausting that three years feels like a lifetime already... .  

[trevjim]

It explains why when they leave you for someone else you don't stand a chance of getting them back, which is probably a good thing. In their eyes the new person is amazing and as you have been split black you are just evil.

[GreenMango]

It can feel like a game.  Unfortunately it isn't really a game, it's a schema (like Charred pointed out a script).  The emotional, cognitive and behavior script that forms how people feel, think and act.  And, it works like reruns.

We all have a schema we operate in the world from. It becomes a game when two people go all in and running circles around each other with unhealthy schemas. 

Round and round.  Check out the workshop on Idealization/Devaluation and the part on Schemas... .  there is an informal schema test you can take to find out your own too.

[clairedair]

Hi Trevjim

I would say that my exH believes what he's saying at the time and I don't think he consciously plays games.

We recycled more than once and he also recycled a girlfriend when not with me.  Just before our last split, I drew a diagram of the course of our reconciliations and breakups.  I named each phase e.g. idealisation, withdrawal, leaving, distraction of another 'honeymoon' with someone else etc. and wrote in some of the phrases he'd use nearly every time.  I also wrote down my own reactions.

Both he and I were pretty much sticking to a script - same words and actions.  I drew the diagram to show him when I felt him start to struggle again with being with me.  I wanted to ask him how we would change the script e.g. stay together and keep communicating until the struggle passed or split up and both take time to really grieve the long marriage and start to heal so we wouldn't repeat.

I never got the chance to show him this - he left without really telling me and was very quickly with someone (a new someone - a minor change to the script!).  He was aware enough to tell me during the withdrawal phase that he had difficulty breaking with the script - so far, it looks like this is true. 

I believe that he did love me when he was telling me that just as I believe he felt that our marriage had been over for years when he was telling me that.  "Facts fit feelings" whatever they are at the time.

Now the question is - do I know what I am doing?  What will I do to change the script?

[trevjim]

Hi Trevjim

I would say that my exH believes what he's saying at the time and I don't think he consciously plays games.

We recycled more than once and he also recycled a girlfriend when not with me.  Just before our last split, I drew a diagram of the course of our reconciliations and breakups.  I named each phase e.g. idealisation, withdrawal, leaving, distraction of another 'honeymoon' with someone else etc. and wrote in some of the phrases he'd use nearly every time.  I also wrote down my own reactions.

Both he and I were pretty much sticking to a script - same words and actions.  I drew the diagram to show him when I felt him start to struggle again with being with me.  I wanted to ask him how we would change the script e.g. stay together and keep communicating until the struggle passed or split up and both take time to really grieve the long marriage and start to heal so we wouldn't repeat.

I never got the chance to show him this - he left without really telling me and was very quickly with someone (a new someone - a minor change to the script!).  He was aware enough to tell me during the withdrawal phase that he had difficulty breaking with the script - so far, it looks like this is true. 

I believe that he did love me when he was telling me that just as I believe he felt that our marriage had been over for years when he was telling me that.  "Facts fit feelings" whatever they are at the time.

Now the question is - do I know what I am doing?  What will I do to change the script?

Thanks Claire, that would be really interesting to put it into a time chart, my memory is terrible though . I believe she did love me, and that means a lot to me. I guess I'm scared her new relationship will fail, which ultimately it probably will, and that she will come knocking. Im working on making myself strong enough to resist.

[mango_flower]

My ex-BPD gf totally idolized me (yes, I know!).  Everyone said how in love she was with me. I'd wake up in the mornings to her just staring at me sleep :/

So yeah, I don't think it was planned or premeditated.  Regardless of BPD, what we had was genuine at one point.  She just freaked out as she could sense me losing interest (I wasn't, I was trying to get ME back as I felt I had lost myself a bit)

xxx

[sunrising]

Regardless of BPD, what we had was genuine at one point. 

Question that.   At least question what "genuine" means.

[GustheDog]

I also made a detailed timeline. I have a sharp memory and included just about every significant event or noteworthy moment - good and bad. I even color-coded the inputs to indicate whether a given event was productive/in furtherance of the r/s or destructive to the r/s.

Once I made it, I was reminded of a timeline I'd seen back in grade school that used an image of a football field to represent "Life on Earth." The idea was to give kids some appreciation of scale, because, over the full 100 yards, human life doesn't emerge until the last tiny fraction of the 1st-yard line. In the r/s timeline, this same spot on the "field" represents the shift from "let's get married," to "you're a controlling, manipulative a$$hole and I want you out of my life."

I don't believe she had any control over this outcome, but I'm dead certain she can see there's something wrong with this picture. Just to be sure, though, I forwarded her a .pdf version.

[DivDad]

Blines might not know what they are doing when in the moment... .  but they definately have an agenda for everything they do.

Functional  Blines can set down a string of lies and misinformation over a period of weeks... .  to get a payoff later.

They have a knack for juggling information, lies and half truths with many people at one time.  How they do it is beyond me.

They are the utlimate manipulators of information.

And people.

[GustheDog]

I remember when I was being devalued (but before I knew it - because I was being strung along), she tried to turn her parents, who really liked me, against me. As she often did, she would complain over the phone about something one of her parents did to hurt or upset her.  As usual, I would say something to make her feel better like, "that's pretty insensitive of your dad," etc.

But now I was being baited into saying these things, because after I said it she would feign surprise and say, "OMG, Gus! You're on speaker and my dad's sitting right here!"

OMG is f_ing right.

[clairedair]

I don't believe she had any control over this outcome, but I'm dead certain she can see there's something wrong with this picture. Just to be sure, though, I forwarded her a .pdf version.

Hi Gus

this made me laugh!   I guess after you'd put all that work into it, would be a shame not to share the results.

I'd do this kind of chart for a problem at work but ultimately it's useless in this kind of relationship.  The night I took it over to his, I started talking about the future.  I was expecting him to say there was no future/end things and it would have been a relief in a way to know what was happening. But every time, I tried to say something positive, expressed my love etc. I got an example from 15 years ago of something I'd done wrong and I just ended up leaving more confused than when I arrived.

Whether or not they know what they are doing may be beside the point.  I was trying to rationally and logically deal with a relationship that's irrational and illogical and have kept trying! 

[GustheDog]

I don't believe she had any control over this outcome, but I'm dead certain she can see there's something wrong with this picture. Just to be sure, though, I forwarded her a .pdf version.

Hi Gus

this made me laugh!   I guess after you'd put all that work into it, would be a shame not to share the results.

I'd do this kind of chart for a problem at work but ultimately it's useless in this kind of relationship.  The night I took it over to his, I started talking about the future.  I was expecting him to say there was no future/end things and it would have been a relief in a way to know what was happening. But every time, I tried to say something positive, expressed my love etc. I got an example from 15 years ago of something I'd done wrong and I just ended up leaving more confused than when I arrived.

Whether or not they know what they are doing may be beside the point.  I was trying to rationally and logically deal with a relationship that's irrational and illogical and have kept trying!  

Well, as part of accepting my role: I'm not controlling, I'm not manipulative, but, at times - yes - I can be an a$$hole. Not losing sleep over this instance, though.

This is how I see it - let's say you're a bad student and you always fail tests even though you study. It's not that you're stupid, it's not that all tests are "evil" - you need to change the way you study.

Unfortunately, my ex would rather wear a low-cut top and beg the prof. to raise her grade, or go complain to the dean behind his back.

Toxic.

[wanttoknowmore]

I also was wondering the same ... do they know they are devaluing? When she was raging and cursing me before she went silent... .  she said "I want my freedom... I want to leave but having hard time?"

I said " You have to paint me black... only then it will be easy to leave." She answered " I am not

painting you black" and left to her home. So, it means they have some idea about what this painting black stuff is.

[Discarded26]

Mine just didn't seem to care in the end. Had me, so thought id be stuck put, and put up with anything

Totally idolized me then suddenly, who cares about silly old me  :'(

[Matt]

Trying to understand what someone who has BPD or another psychological disorder is thinking and feeling can kind of dwrive us crazy.  Their thinking is twisted - that's the nature of the disorder - so it's not a fun or satisfying thing to spend too much time trying to understand it.

One thing I can say for sure is that my ex, who has BPD and other stuff, isn't a very happy person.  She is very, very bad at attending to her own needs and making herself happy.

As an example, she used to give me orders - ":)o the dishes!" - rather than making requests - "Matt, would you please do the dishes before you go to work?".  Asking nicely usually worked, but giving me orders never did - I ignored them, and the dishes didn't get done.  But she never learned - she was smart, but her way of thinking didn't allow her to take the practical approach and ask nicely.  So she kept giving orders, and things got worse.

Really, really bad at getting her own needs met.  And really, really unhappy.

Trevjim, where are you at right now?  Do you need to figure out everything about how she thinks and feels, or can you just accept that these ways of behaving are who she is, and without therapy, not likely to change?

What worked for me (after quite a bit of time with my friends here, and my counselor) was to let go of my wife's behavior, and accept that it's not going to change.  Separation and divorce was what I needed to have a better life.  Certainly things aren't going to get better if moving forward depends on the other person changing... .  

[trevjim]

Trying to understand what someone who has BPD or another psychological disorder is thinking and feeling can kind of dwrive us crazy.  Their thinking is twisted - that's the nature of the disorder - so it's not a fun or satisfying thing to spend too much time trying to understand it.

One thing I can say for sure is that my ex, who has BPD and other stuff, isn't a very happy person.  She is very, very bad at attending to her own needs and making herself happy.

As an example, she used to give me orders - ":)o the dishes!" - rather than making requests - "Matt, would you please do the dishes before you go to work?".  Asking nicely usually worked, but giving me orders never did - I ignored them, and the dishes didn't get done.  But she never learned - she was smart, but her way of thinking didn't allow her to take the practical approach and ask nicely.  So she kept giving orders, and things got worse.

Really, really bad at getting her own needs met.  And really, really unhappy.

Trevjim, where are you at right now?  Do you need to figure out everything about how she thinks and feels, or can you just accept that these ways of behaving are who she is, and without therapy, not likely to change?

What worked for me (after quite a bit of time with my friends here, and my counselor) was to let go of my wife's behavior, and accept that it's not going to change.  Separation and divorce was what I needed to have a better life.  Certainly things aren't going to get better if moving forward depends on the other person changing... .  

I'm not entirely sure my ex has BPD, she ticks a lot of boxes but not to the extent ad some on here. I guess Im worrying she will be great with the guy she left me for. I've read a lot of articles that people, BPD or not, don't change.

Also although I've accepted she has moved on etc, I still have trouble detaching from her son I'm not able to see anymore.

I'm also trying to work out my roles in the relationship breakdown.

[Matt]

A few aspects you're mentioning... .  

* Does she have BPD?  Without a diagnosis, you probably can't know, but it probably also doesn't matter.  What matters most is the behaviors, and you're right, those will probably continue - the specifics might change but the patterns will continue, unless she gets the right kind of help long-term.

The good news is, if someone has BPD or another psych disorder, and gets the right kind of treatment, and stays with it for long enough - probably a few years - the chances of achieving "remission" are very good.  One study said more than 80% of the people with BPD who got the recommended treatment, after 5 years were in remission.  (Not "cured", but acting way better.)

The bad news is, most don't get the help, even when it's available and affordable.  My wife was diagnosed, and ordered by the court to get therapy, and the money was available, but she never did it, even though that could land her in hot water.  That's typical of many others here.

* She might be great with the guy she's with now.  This one you just have to let go of.  First, it might actually make things easier for you - she'll be out of your life sooner.  It can hurt a guy's ego, and you ask a lot of "what ifs".  The only solution, I think, is to let go - get emotional distance - easier said than done but it will help.

* Her son.  How old is he?  Any chance you could still see him regularly?  How long did you know him, and how is your relationship with him up til now?

[trevjim]

A few aspects you're mentioning... .  

* Does she have BPD?  Without a diagnosis, you probably can't know, but it probably also doesn't matter.  What matters most is the behaviors, and you're right, those will probably continue - the specifics might change but the patterns will continue, unless she gets the right kind of help long-term.

The good news is, if someone has BPD or another psych disorder, and gets the right kind of treatment, and stays with it for long enough - probably a few years - the chances of achieving "remission" are very good.  One study said more than 80% of the people with BPD who got the recommended treatment, after 5 years were in remission.  (Not "cured", but acting way better.)

The bad news is, most don't get the help, even when it's available and affordable.  My wife was diagnosed, and ordered by the court to get therapy, and the money was available, but she never did it, even though that could land her in hot water.  That's typical of many others here.

* She might be great with the guy she's with now.  This one you just have to let go of.  First, it might actually make things easier for you - she'll be out of your life sooner.  It can hurt a guy's ego, and you ask a lot of "what ifs".  The only solution, I think, is to let go - get emotional distance - easier said than done but it will help.

* Her son.  How old is he?  Any chance you could still see him regularly?  How long did you know him, and how is your relationship with him up til now?

*In terms of treatment, as far as im aware she doesnt even know BPD exists, and im unfortuantly in no position to tell her anymore.

*you are right, if there wasnt anyone else, we would probably still be yoyo'ing between breaking up and getting back together.

*the birth dad of the boy has no access to him having gone to jail for physically abusing my ex and the boy (at least thats what she told the everyone, and the jury found him guilty, who knows the real truth.) I raised him from his first birthday till when we split 2.5 years later. as soon as her new boyfriend was on the scene, she told me to stay away as she wants him to be his dad now. pretty disgusting, but with no biological ties, there is nothing i can do.

[sunrising]

Trevjim, That's terrible about the son.  I became very close with my ExwBPD's son.  He's 12 years old and I know of at least 5 men who've been in a relationship with his mother, taken on a significant role in his life, and been kicked out of his life by his mother.  He really became attached to me over 2+ years.   He would get VERY upset if he thought his mother and I were arguing, even when weren't, and say things like ":)on't do it again mom!" and "You can't take him from me!".    I had hoped I would be able to continue to be in his life after our break-up, but his mother made it clear she doesn't want that.   She's messed up, but she is his mother, so my name is now another on the list of men that have come and gone for him.  He's already exhibiting some behaviors that are going to be very problematic as he matures.  I was slated to become a full-time father figure for him and was hoping I could aide in helping him become a more emotionally healthy adult.  I'm very concerned for his future, but there is nothing I can do.   It's heartbreaking.

[trevjim]

Trevjim, That's terrible about the son.  I became very close with my ExwBPD's son.  He's 12 years old and I know of at least 5 men who've been in a relationship with his mother, taken on a significant role in his life, and been kicked out of his life by his mother.  He really became attached to me over 2+ years.   He would get VERY upset if he thought his mother and I were arguing, even when weren't, and say things like ":)on't do it again mom!" and "You can't take him from me!".    I had hoped I would be able to continue to be in his life after our break-up, but his mother made it clear she doesn't want that.   She's messed up, but she is his mother, so my name is now another on the list of men that have come and gone for him.  He's already exhibiting some behaviors that are going to be very problematic as he matures.  I was slated to become a full-time father figure for him and was hoping I could aide in helping him become a more emotionally healthy adult.  I'm very concerned for his future, but there is nothing I can do.   It's heartbreaking.

Im really sorry to hear that, it is terrible, having raised them, you start to feel responsible, which I feel is why its so hard to detach from them from our point of view. It is heartbreaking, but we did the best we could for them and we should be proud of that. Id love for him to come and find me when he is of age, I told her that my door is always open for him. Trouble is, as ex's we are most likely split black so i doubt itl ever happen. she told me after a month of dating the current boyfriend  that he is broody and wants a baby, its just gonna end up with another messed up child. so sad.