How do you get support for yourself?

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

Here's my question to the community: how do you get support for yourself? How do you self-soothe? Brief background: I'm trying to cope with a dBPDh who isn't sure if our relationship is worthwhile any longer. He also has a girlfriend who likely has BPD (w/NPD traits) herself and there are definitely triangulation issues at play there. But this isn't about those issues, I am looking for answers to help myself right now.

Obviously there's bpdfamily.com and these boards (thank heavens)! I have friends and family who are wonderful people but I don't share everything with them as I know most of them will not comprehend the nature of BPD and I don't really want to get tangled in a mess of them blaming my husband for things or taking sides.

My husband isn't so great with dealing with my feelings (understatement of the year) so I'm trying to figure out how to do some 'extreme self soothing'. He tells me he doesn't know where our r/s is going and I validate and reassure him (seems to be working) but then I'm left in a stupor. It hurts to hear that I'm sort of 'optional' right now. It's wrenching to hear that he may just choose his girlfriend over me (obviously it's not that simple, but that's how it feels to me). We're trying to work things out, so I need strategies to stabilize my own emotional turmoil, without turning to my husband for reassurance that he can't give. I want to hear that it's going to be okay but, since that isn't an option, what are some strategies that can be employed in the meantime? I can physically distract myself, but I think I need some psychological tricks too.

[arabella]

Here's my question to the community: how do you get support for yourself? How do you self-soothe? Brief background: I'm trying to cope with a dBPDh who isn't sure if our relationship is worthwhile any longer. He also has a girlfriend who likely has BPD (w/NPD traits) herself and there are definitely triangulation issues at play there. But this isn't about those issues, I am looking for answers to help myself right now.

Obviously there's bpdfamily.com and these boards (thank heavens)! I have friends and family who are wonderful people but I don't share everything with them as I know most of them will not comprehend the nature of BPD and I don't really want to get tangled in a mess of them blaming my husband for things or taking sides.

My husband isn't so great with dealing with my feelings (understatement of the year) so I'm trying to figure out how to do some 'extreme self soothing'. He tells me he doesn't know where our r/s is going and I validate and reassure him (seems to be working) but then I'm left in a stupor. It hurts to hear that I'm sort of 'optional' right now. It's wrenching to hear that he may just choose his girlfriend over me (obviously it's not that simple, but that's how it feels to me). We're trying to work things out, so I need strategies to stabilize my own emotional turmoil, without turning to my husband for reassurance that he can't give. I want to hear that it's going to be okay but, since that isn't an option, what are some strategies that can be employed in the meantime? I can physically distract myself, but I think I need some psychological tricks too.

[daze]

Hi Arabella,

I'm sorry for the pain you are experiencing.  I understand how you feel about your husband from your other posts and this situation must be really hard.

I'm not the best self soother.  For the psychological aspects, I read, go to therapy and meetings, and keep in touch with my family and friends.  My dog is the best!  I don't like to go into r/s issues with my family and friends either but I have a couple of close friends who I can talk with and take care not to overwhelm them. 

Physically, I'm trying to exercise regularly.  I take a lot of hot baths, clean and organize my house, work on the yard, stuff like that.  When I've been really upset, I've gone for massages and manicures/pedicures, which are not part of my normal routine.  These are all just normal things but represent an improvement for me because when H first began showing me his other side, I self soothed by sleeping too much because I was depressed.

What are you currently to self sooth?

Daze

 

[arabella]

Thanks, daze - I think we use a lot of the same coping mechanisms! I run, I started doing yoga, I've signed up for a kettlebell class with a friend. I have a journal (although sometimes that's more depressing than soothing, depending on my mood), I clean and organize the house, sometimes I cook or bake something. I do some self care type activities (nails, etc.) I used to read a lot, but recently I've had trouble concentrating so that's lost its appeal for the moment. Actually, a lot of things have lost some of their appeal - it's hard to have fun when you're stressed and unhappy. Which is, I suppose, most of the problem.

I think my issue is that most of this stuff just feels like 'busy work' to me and isn't really calming my inner self. Does that make sense? I mean, yes, these activities give me a break and distract me, but my emotional self is still not soothed. Perhaps it's a self-validation issue too? I know I became very dependent on my husband to meet my emotional needs (I also know I was overly demanding and have codependency issues) but now that I'm trying to heal myself and grow up emotionally, I'm just not sure how to meet my own needs in the face of turmoil and rejection. I'm fine with day-to-day stuff, I can take care of myself physically and spiritually, but when a conversation or interaction with my husband goes badly, I'm not adequately equipped to cope. I just sort of dissolve into a mess!

[mosaicbird]

Self-soothing is something I'm not too good at either, but it's high up on my list of things to improve as well... .  

I don't know what your belief system might be, but in the past I've found that just taking some time (while getting ready in the morning, or getting ready for bed) to listen to some of Thich Nhat Hanh's talks is very good at getting me back into the frame of mind I need to be in to let life's drama and disappointment roll off my back a little better... .  especially his talks on love. www.tnhaudio.org/category/love/ His voice and his serenity get through to my emotional self even when I'm agitated and upset.

[arabella]

mosaicbird - thank you so much for the link! Aside from the excellent quality of the content (I'm listening right now!), you have reminded me to focus on some of my spiritual values for relief. It's so easy for me to get caught up in my own emotions and forget that I believe in things outside of myself. I know that sounds ridiculous - how could anyone forget such a thing, right? - but it happens. Now if only the buddha would come along and dole out hugs, I'd be all set... .  (kidding... .  sort of)

As an aside, I am trying to view this experience as a challenge on my path. Perhaps it's just desperation trying to make the best of things, but someone once told me that everyone comes into our lives for a reason - sometimes for our benefit, sometimes for theirs, but never take a person along your path for granted. I think she was put on my path just to impart that wisdom.

I'm also trying to find a balance between being kind and forgiving toward myself and just plain 'ol self-pity and wallowing or laziness. There's a fine line between over-doing or over-trying and just making excuses to avoid work. This whole self-improvement thing is hard... .  

[Blazing Star]

Hi arabella,

A wee while ago I was in a similar place to you. I struggled to find ways to meet my own needs. I felt lost, like I couldn't remember what I used to do to feel better.

It sounds like you are good at looking after yourself, but in an everyday kind of way and are looking for something deeper for when you feel emotional. You touched on self-validation, and also mentioned that you can't share everything with family or friends. Is there just one person you could open up to a little more?

I am sorry I am not familiar with your story, are you working with a T? My T has really helped me, and the space that she provides, the emotional space that she holds for me is Awesome, and very validating.

Also I have one good friend who in a brave moment I opened up to about everything, she is great at listening or giving me some empathy if I have an empathy need that my pwBPD is unable to meet. I never realised how much a simple text message "Oh that is tough, I feel for you" from her would help me!

You also mention co-dependency. Its great that you are working on this. I believe that the more work you do here, the less this:

"when a conversation or interaction with my husband goes badly, I'm not adequately equipped to cope. I just sort of dissolve into a mess!"

will happen. Working on these emotional boundaries will help you deal with things when you have situations that go badly with your H.

So keep working on it! You are doing all the right things.

Love Blazing Star

[arabella]

It sounds like you are good at looking after yourself, but in an everyday kind of way and are looking for something deeper for when you feel emotional.

^ Yes, I think you hit the nail on the head!

I have a good friend and a brother who I can, and do, call. They're very supportive and I know they love me. So that's great, and I appreciate them more than I can say (although I do try to tell them how much they mean to me). Their support has been very bolstering. I do feel sort of guilty though for calling them in a mess all the time as I know they have their own lives to lead as well. Plus, I want to figure out how to be there for myself rather than relying on others all the time. I feel a little burned by my experience with my husband. I know he has BPD so that makes a huge difference, but my brain is screaming at me and my heart is feeling rather battered.

I was trying to find a T. My health plan covers a certain number of sessions if I use their referral service, so that seemed good. But then I got put off by a really awful T (one session) - he decided that I should convince my dBPDh to get a 2nd and 3rd opinion on his diagnosis, quit all his medication to see if maybe the symptoms were "just side effects of the medication". Uhh, what? Then he told me once I'd dealt with that I could book another appointment in a few months. He didn't suggest anything to actually help ME. So now I'm just trying to work up to calling back to find someone else. It shook me up a bit more than I realized, in retrospect. You know what though, your comment has made me realize I do need to try again. I will call them tonight.

Emotional boundaries. Yes. Definitely good. I think I'm on the right intellectual path... .  But I'm very much struggling with how to convince my emotional self not to take things personally. Any tips there?

[almost789]

I'm feeling quite edgy myself arabella. There is only so much you can get from "yourself" ya know? I mean it IS human nature to bond with other people. Its not "abnormal" You are in an open relationship, right? Ok, this is not the conventional recommendation but I thought I would throw it out there. How about you find yourself another bf. Your husband has his gf afterall. I certainly not pushing you to do anything you don't want, but it seems to me when a pwBPD or any man for that matter, competitive instincts kick in big changes can happen. Just my thoughts... .  I am thinking about this myself. I feel I have waited long enough!

[Themis]

Hi Arabella and Lifegoeson,

I have thought about the competitive instinct and another man too. I do not want another relationship, as I have so much work to do on myself.

I fear I would attract another BPD guy, or worse a "healthy" ( & stuck-up ) man that would view me as the crazy one.

I want to date as I've never experienced just dating a few people, and having fun. I have either been single or in a proper relationship. Never anything casual, and didn't have the confience to tell people "I'm just dating" and have the guts to date more than one person and feel ok with that.

But I could casually date, or just have that connection.

I am finding that looking for that on purpose feels stressful, and indeed like a competion. He goes out with friend so often now, I feel slightly pressured to do the same.

You know, not be so lame at home.

I'm at the point where I could go with a guy for coffee or just hang out without feeling guilty if that came up. I know he does this.

Couldn't do much more than that, but I would love that if the opportunity came up.

Good advice.

[arabella]

SummerT321 - okay, THANK YOU for validating that sometimes we need other people. All the talk about codependency and clinginess, etc. has me a little befuddled. I think I'm starting to go to opposite extremes. Clearly I need to work on being able to balance (this seems to be a theme with me).

I have considered finding a new bf. Can we discuss that? I absolutely welcome input. I think I need to examine that option outside of my own head a bit. I have several thoughts on the matter. Themis brought some of them up as well. First, is this fair to the other person? Well, that I can take care of by being very upfront about my situation. I have to trust the other person to take care of their own needs. Am I in a good head space? Well... .  hmm... .  This stumps me a bit. Yes, I'm a mess in my marriage, BUT I am fairly stable (I think?) otherwise. I am fairly adept at keeping my issues separated. I have codependency issues, but I am also rather self-sufficient, working on my confidence, and I don't suffer from any major disorders myself. I think I'm fairly healthy (this is probably a matter of opinion). But I don't want to be using someone else just for a self-esteem boost. Or maybe I do? I mean, is there really a problem with that if the other person knows that's where I'm at? I am perfectly capable of maintaining more than one r/s (thus the open marriage thing) so some of the difficulty has been previously (as in years ago) worked out in my head. But then what about my husband? Yes, he has a gf himself - but that doesn't mean he won't go into some sort of weird BPD-inspired meltdown if I get a new bf. He might compete. Or he might use it as an excuse to just quit trying. Or he might just get really angry and weird and not have any idea why because he just can't handle the reality of it all. But, of course, I can't base my life around trying to predict his responses either. I'm really conflicted about this idea, but I LIKE the idea. But am I just being needy or, worse, manipulative? It all goes around in circles for me and I'm not getting anywhere with my decision making on this one.

Themis - if you aren't comfortable dating, don't 'date'. Go out for coffee or whatever and call it 'making friends'. Lots of dating websites have sections for making friends rather than serious romantic encounters. Get out there! But don't do it because you feel like you have to, do it because you want to. If you attract another pwBPD or a stuck-up jerk - bail on them and find a person who deserves you!

[daze]

I think my issue is that most of this stuff just feels like 'busy work' to me and isn't really calming my inner self. Does that make sense? I mean, yes, these activities give me a break and distract me, but my emotional self is still not soothed. Perhaps it's a self-validation issue too?

Yes, it makes sense. A lot of my self soothing things are busy work, but they help me feel good on some level. The Alanon meetings help with the codependency - there is something very validating being with people who understand what you're going through - kinda like here. Before I went to a meeting, I was afraid it would be cheesy for lack of a better word. I was so  relieved to find that it wasn't.  The people were genuine. I even bought some of the books.  I never thought I'd be one to read devotionals but when I was depressed they were structured enough and short enough that I could focus and get something out of it.

I've been feeling a pull to go to church too. I'm a little more on the liberal side than most of the churches where I live but I don't think it should stop me.  You mentioned Buddha doling out hugs - you might see if Ammachi comes to your area.  She's the hugging saint from India.  Hindu. Her hugs are something else.  I visited her several times with my first husband and his family and experienced a lot of peace and healing in her presence.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=8nTmcUCnF_U

[Grey Kitty]

Arabella,

What about the option you suggested for Themis?

Instead of looking for another "serious" bf, you could just try dating around a bit yourself, without serious expectations of finding much. Just enjoying meeting people as friends, without expecting anything more of it.

Does that sound interesting to you?

[daze]

Arabella, you got that post in while I was typing.  I don't have much experience with open relationships.  It sounds like you are concerned it could push him further away, which doesn't sound like an outcome you want. Where is your H's gf now?

[almost789]

Hi Arabella, Is it fair to the other person? Sure it is as long as you are honest with them about your situation. Obviously it would have to be a single person or a married person who is also in an open relationship. What will your husband do? We dont know that. Perhaps you could bring it up and see if hed be comforable with it. It could trigger abandonement fears, it could also draw him nearer. In my experience Ive found the later to be true for me. Are you a needy co dependant? Hmmm... .  not sure but in my opinion we all need human connection outside of just ourselves. Ive spent over a year waiting for my pwBPD to reconnect with me in a way that is satisfying. Weve made some connections but its been anything but satisfying. At what point is it ok to say im ready to date again? I think I have reached that point.

[mosaicbird]

Arabella, I don't know what kind of arrangement you and your husband have as far as contact with one another's secondary partners, and separation/overlap of relationships or what have you, but I have to say that I would be reluctant to become involved with someone whose primary partner was a pwBPD unless they were in serious therapy and recovery oriented. I think it's almost impossible to avoid some drama spillover in a situation where there are ongoing issues like that in the primary relationship. (Not trying to be a downer, just saying that for me, having seen situations like that before, it would be an issue. I would also be reluctant to have my own partner get involved in that situation.)

How has your husband been in the past when you've had boyfriends? Do you two do totally separate secondary relationships instead of the 'everyone knows everyone' thing?

(I keep coming back to my post because I feel as though it's too negative and essentially implying that someone trying to maintain an open marriage to someone with BPD can never date! Which seems horribly unfair and is not what I mean at all... .  argh.  )

[almost789]

Im fairly new to the whole open thing. Arabella, how has it worked for you and your husband? Mine doesnt want to know who im dating or what im doing. Nor do I want to know of his partner. We also do not date others from work family or who has any connections to our personal life. Well that the rules we made anyway.

[arabella]

daze - you're full of interesting links! I'd never heard of Amma before, but she sounds wonderful. Now I just have to wait for her next tour - I see she was in North America last summer.

Casual dating. Yes, I think that's the way I'd go, at least for now. Mosaicbird, you have a good point about how the other person might react, it's definitely something I consider. On the other hand, I can't really take it upon myself to be responsible for the decisions of an adult third party. If they don't want to get entangled, I wouldn't blame them, but I can't really make that decision for them. Probably the casual dating would be easier with this point in mind as well.

So let me see, H's gf is on another continent. They have their own issues and that situation is a mess.   It's also, aside from the spillover effect, not my problem. (I sound more flip with this than I actually am, but I do need to remember to detach as it's not my r/s.) I've met her, before she took off 8 months ago, and am now struggling as well with how to deal with her (or if I even should). Detach yes, but she's purposely lied to me and is doing things that affect me. I'd really quite like to tell her off. That's up in the air too. I probably need to make some sort of decision on that issue as well just for my own peace of mind. I'm sure H would have a fit when he found out - that may be good or bad, who knows?

For the most part, despite the open r/s, I haven't dated anyone else. We were on a 'break' many years ago and I dated. That was fine. Any time I've asked H, he says he doesn't care and that I deserve to date because, after all, "it's only fair". That may be true enough, about it being 'fair', but that tells me nothing about how he actually feels. I doubt that he even knows. The reason I haven't dated anyone is really for no other reason aside from the fact that I was perfectly content in my primary r/s, have a busy life, and just couldn't be bothered. I always figured if I met someone, great, and if not, I was fine with that too.

LGO2 - Yup, that's it, I've reached critical mass (as it were). I feel like maybe I just need more right now and what is an open r/s for if not to fulfil one's needs where there is a void? I do need to look out for my own mental health, I'm just trying to figure out the best way to actually do that! Now, how does it work, or how is it supposed to work? H managed to toss all kinds of rules out the window on his current r/s - that's the problem. We know who the other is dating (partially this is a safety issue) and I have met all of his gfs. This also ensures that everyone is on the up-and-up and there is no 'miscommunication' re availability or marital status, etc. We aren't 'out' as a couple - so clearly we can't date within our circle of friends or coworkers, etc. You know, we should start a thread somewhere to discuss open r/s! There's really quite a lot to hash out and it gets very complicated very quickly... .  Plus, I don't want to throw off anyone here who has had to deal with affairs, etc. (totally different thing but I know that it's a sensitive subject for a lot of people).

[almost789]

Im so new to this and we are still making up the rules as we go. A big thing for us is that we as primary partners have to come first. Period. That meansnif Im not ok with his relationship. He has to end it and vice versa. We must be very careful with who we get involved with. They must be mature enough to handle this properly. We dont  wantnto date people who are looking for their next wife or husband. Obviously security in the relationship is an absolute must here. I feel for you with your husband because its much harder im sure with a BPD person. With then splitting and things like that you have to be so much more careful. At the same time it could take some ofnthe pressure off of you both! Im not suprised he doesnt care. He knows hes doing it too and still loves you. So its easier for him to see that you can do the same. Thats my opinion there. If I date another man it doesnt mean I dont love my husband. I still love him. And for him its the same. We can start a thread if you want or continue here. Im notnsure how many have this type of agreement but would love to hear from others.

[mosaicbird]

Since you guys aren't "out" and are dating outside your primary social circle, that can be a plus in this situation, I think, because it's going to avoid the drama of all those intertwined relationships.

The fact that your husband has already violated boundaries and rules with his current girlfriend is a big problem, as you know. I think the thing to worry about if/when you start dating isn't going to be your own mental health with regards to the secondary relationship, but with your husband's response. Being okay theoretically with an open relationship and actually having one's partner involved with someone else are completely different things, and with all the attachment issues that go along with BPD... .  it could be messy and increase your stress at home. (I know he's been dating, but pwBPD are especially good at that unbalanced, "It's okay for me, but not for YOU!" thing.)

[arabella]

LGO2 - yes, those rules sound very familiar to me. My BPDh isn't so good with rules apparently. He's madly in love with the gf I asked him to stop seeing on account of her poor behaviour (the lying, cheating, stealing). All I can say is, if you want an open r/s to work, you absolutely must have clear boundaries, continuous communication, and be very careful about what the 'secondaries' are understanding (people hear what they want to hear, it can get very messy). I actually recommend knowing as much as you can about the other person's r/s (sparing intimate details) - mystery can breed discontent and you don't want any surprises down the road. Someone once explained the love aspect of it this way: a parent can have more than one child, it doesn't mean they love any of their children less. Same concept.

Mosaicbird - I would 100% avoid any sort of social circle overlap. I would probably try to date people from another city, in fact. And yes, the BPD reaction is exactly what I worry about. He says one thing but I fear the reality may be quite different. Now, usually he's quite reasonable, calm, centred, etc. however, he is not his usual self right now. I don't want to make things worse for myself (given that I don't want to leave my current r/s). Tricky. But I really do need to do something for myself - the busy work/distraction thing isn't cutting it and I need some positive emotional input here. Somehow having my brother tell me that my husband is being an a$$ isn't quite the same as a good cuddle, you know? 

Uhh... .  does this situation reek of rebound? Because I worry about that too. Or is that okay if it's just a casual thing?

[mosaicbird]

Uhh... .  does this situation reek of rebound? Because I worry about that too. Or is that okay if it's just a casual thing?

I don't personally have issues with rebound situations if both parties are on the same page. (Standard I am not a healthy person emotionally disclaimer here.   My current partner was pretty much originally a rebound - we got involved just several months after the end of my "official" capital-R-Relationship with my BPD ex - and we've been together for 10 years now... .  

Some of my acquaintances who have open relationships are also into cuddle buddy type things... .  friendly physical affection without the sexual/romantic component. I don't know if that's something that you would consider for your situation, but maybe something like that would meet your affection/fun/distraction needs without hitting your unfairness/rebound worries?

[Themis]

If you already have an open relationship there is no reason why you shouldn't have a bf... .  isn't that the point?

You know it is really selfish of him to say you have an open relationship---so he can have his cake and eat it too---but then you feel so nervous about it.

How can you tolerate him sleeping with another woman and then treating you so badly? You don't know what he's doing.

You have every right to have your own.

I've never cheated and could not cheat. I also don't think I'm stable enough to handle the jealous I would feel in an open relationship.

You have to be pretty confident to handle that. I am not that secure as yet.

My pwBPD has broken up with me for a while. He hasn't said "I love you" for the majority of the past two years. We had a live together friends with benefits situation where we were in some painful relationship where he didn't quite leave me but didn't give me the relationship like we had before.

Technically I have been single a long time now. But it was complicated. I wouldn't be bothering with him if he dated someone else.

I would not tolerate that at all. That would blow my top. I'd bust a vein.  

If we didn't live together things would be a lot more simple. I'd be heart broken but it would be easier to move on. I think I would have left him six months ago.

Out of sight and time healing all wounds. There just too much pain in the neck with money, rent and the fact until recently I got used to this half-relationship.

It was comfortable enough, I stopped hoping for love (ok ok not really, I craved it sometimes--but I gave up on it actually happening)) and just got used to having a great friend that I can be intimate with and talk to.

Well obviously I don't even have that lately and he's made it clear he does not care for me. I still feel small guilt and fear if I do anything it could wreck any future chance of starting again.

I know if he dated someone else (and I told him) he would absolutely cut off any chance with me. I don't want someone elses scraps. He has told me he doesn't care what I do, but I know deep down it would also signal to him I don't need him, and maybe he'd be competitive and want me again OR a big risk he'd really shut me down forever. He's doing that anyway so maybe in future I'd be prepared to take that risk.

I do need more friends so yes, I am happy to just be friends with others including men, and not do anything--just get used to that.

Having friends, and not catering to his jealousy and isolating of me.

I do feel as much of a train wreck this is now, if I cured my depression and had more of my own life, we could be happy together.

If he did some self-work I could tolerate the majority of his stuff, as long as he continued to be faithful and didn't do any more silent treatments.

I'm not going to go out of my way, but now I have more confidence that if an opportunity just to be friends came up I'd take it without looking over my shoulder.



Actually he's paying so little attention to me he wouldn't even notice... .  :'(

[almost789]

Arabella, I think you have more of the issue with it than he does. He told you he doesn't care. One thing BPD's don't like, especially engulfment types, they don't like knowing "your always available" to them, no matter what. Maybe to calm yourself you could have a discussion with him and just ask him if it would be ok for you to see someone while he's seeing his gf. Reassure him he is your main guy but you need some companionship while he is going through his issues with his gf. The other thing is, BPD's and men in general do have competative instincts and it can sometimes make him try harder to be there for you when another is in the picture. I agree with Themis. You are in an open relationship. If  you don't take advantage of it then what is the point. Is it only open to one side? I would just do alot of reassurance, and pull back away from it if it starts major problems you don't want to get into. But, it could do just the opposite.

Themis, It does take confidence, but really the most important thing is trust. I trust my husband will not leave me and will not put others before me. And he trusts me as well. The trust with us is very strong. We've been down many roads and survived them all so we both trust each other very much.

[daze]

Somehow having my brother tell me that my husband is being an a$$ isn't quite the same as a good cuddle, you know?

So true!  But being with another person is not self soothing. 

[arabella]

To be honest, I've never had a problem with rebounds either. But people keep telling me that I should have a problem with it, so there's where I start to question it. I've had my own 'rebounds' last quite awhile, I don't think I (or the other person) was worse off for it. Perhaps this is just a very individual type thing?

Themis and LGO2 - you're right, it's sort of pointless if I don't participate when I want to. But I don't want to do something just because I can either. There are indeed a lot of trust issues involved, and that is the problem with my current situation, the trust has gone out the window due to H's behaviour. I don't want to add to the tempest but, truly, this is not my doing. I can't fix everything and I do have to live my life.

Themis - the open r/s style is definitely not for everyone, and it is definitely not something to start when your main r/s is in disrepair. I know you're saying that it's hard to leave your current situation, but maybe you should consider it? You clearly aren't happy. What if you even just started looking at options, making plans to move out, without actually committing to that course of action yet? Even just making the plans might help give you some clarity. Plus, I think you might need to empower yourself - you said you rely on others to help lift you out of your depression. That's great that you have support but, ultimately, you are going to have to 'cure' yourself. No one else can make you happy, you have to go out and find happiness. So, tying that back to my situation... .  Am I looking for another bf to 'make me happy'? Or am I going out to find happiness? The first is not healthy, the second is perfectly good. And that brings me to Daze's comment... .  

Daze - aaaand... .  BINGO! It's not self-soothing. This is where I start tying myself in knots. Am I just avoiding my own issues? Filling up some sort of emotional hole in myself that I really should be working on alone? Or is this, as LGO2 said earlier, just human nature to want human connection and more meaningful contact? How can I tell?

[Grey Kitty]

Arabella,

You say that you received stated permission to date, but haven't actually done it, and aren't sure how your husband would react. I think this is perceptive on your part--it is much easier to say that you are OK with something because it seems right and fair... .  than it is to actually feel OK with it. As a rule, people with BPD don't do particularly well at dealing with uncomfortable feelings. (How was that for an understatement?)

One option would be... .  start with casual dating, so if he does start to blow a gasket, you won't feel very bad about releasing the pressure by dumping the new guy. (Of course, the more serious you are, the harder it would be for your husband to deal with)

But more importantly... .  what kind of r/s do you WANT to have in addition to the one with your husband? How would you imagine it working for you, how would you find it fulfilling?

Daze - aaaand... .  BINGO! It's not self-soothing. This is where I start tying myself in knots. Am I just avoiding my own issues? Filling up some sort of emotional hole in myself that I really should be working on alone? Or is this, as LGO2 said earlier, just human nature to want human connection and more meaningful contact? How can I tell?

How do you decide if you taking care of yourself or avoiding your own issues? Geez, that is a tough one. And worse than that, you are the only one who can answer it.

[Themis]

How on earth is being with another person NOT self-soothing?(a term that makes me wince, it seems condescending or something--I can't put my finger on it.)

It takes independence to go out without your partner, actively make other friends on your own initiative and have fun.

That IS self-soothing.

What are people meant to do? Be alone 24/7 watching t.v. or reading at home and feel proud because that doesn't involve human intereaction?

No.

I'm tired of this popular idea, you hear it too much. It's great in theory until you have to be alone for a long time and that becomes boring and empty.

Take a few months of that and the peace and quiet wears into something painful. People love people and that's OK.

[arabella]

Yup, that's it, Grey Kitty - what he says vs how he'll actually feel when reality hits are potentially two different things. I think I'm going to take the advice here and start out slow and see how things shape up. To be fair, relationships in general (with regular people - haha) do tend to start out slowly/casually to begin with anyway. Note: these may be famous last words, remind me I said this if it all goes to h*ll in a handbasket a month from now and I'm back here having conniptions. 

Hehe - Themis, I know! It sounds like we're searching for rubber baby pacifiers or something. I'm with you on the confusion as to what constitutes 'self-soothing' though. I mean, I'm not ready for the life of a zen monk, so... .  Yup, other people are going to be involved. I LIKE being in relationships (of all sorts).

Ultimately, I can only do so much introspection on this, at some point I've just got to live my life. I think it's causing more stress just thinking about it than actually doing anything would cause! Geesh. Am I avoiding my own issues? Who knows? Probably, to some extent, but I'm never going to be perfect - I'm just not that close to nirvana.

[almost789]

Thank you! Themis ! I agree. Who the heck wants to be alone all the time to examine yourself over and over again. Its WAY overboard theme here. We are HUMAN beings meant to interact with other people not self reflect 24/7. Of course we all need to self reflect and take responsibility. But we also need to get out and share with people. That is taking care of yourself. Why does EVERYTHING haven to turn into oh... .  you looking for validation... .  oh... .  your not looking at yourself in this matter... .  oh... .  your needy. Get off it already. How much is enough? Good God. Im not a hermit.

[almost789]

As if being with another person is a bad thing! When do we get to be with another person and it be ok? And healthy? I have self reflected. Im done punishing me! For his mental illness! Ready to move on and tired taking the blame for falling in love with a mental. Over it!

[Themis]

 

Cheers you guys. Glad I often say what everyone else is thinking.

I even had a conversation with a friends about this. I think it comes from a good place and the Oprah self-help type of thinking... .  

There's all this stuff about working on yourself, and getting rid of issues before dating others and how we must be complete alone and not needs others.

Well on the way to all this "self-work" and becoming so damn independent you truly can be fine alone and live on a hill in your hut of self-love and acceptance.

Along that path I have seen hurt people helping other hurt people. In my teens I was pretty lonely and hooked up with another "pretty lonely" guy. We both had issues, but we helped each other so much and the relationship did us a world of good.

It was part of my journey, and part of me becoming me. We were better people afterwards.

But according to these philosophies-- that shouldn't have happened. I should have filled that void of family issues and feelings of lacking love BY MYSELF--for god knows how many years and if that is 100% possible.

Then date a man that is also 100% healthy and doesn't need a relationship.

What rubbish. Everyone deserve love even our sometimes cruel pwBPD. Even needy people, even people with depression. Everyone.

Part of getting my confidence was the fact that after feeling so alone--this young man fell head over heels for me. He really showed me I was lovable.

It helped me a lot faster than I could have helped myself---talking to the mirror and telling myself how great I am.

A relationship can be healing. Even my current relationship did me a world of good in so many ways. There's a sad ending, but he has given me so much, really helped me out of my timid shell and into a woman.

Friendships can do the same. People love people. Even "alone" activities generally involve others like going to the movies and the joy of laughing with strangers.

We are always getting pleasure & comfort from others and there is nothing wrong with that.

[Themis]

Also have you noticed that all the people going on about how they don't need others and how they can be entirely alone and fine... .  

ALL HAVE LOVING FAMILIES, FRIENDLY NEIGHBOURS, MANY FRIENDS AND ARE OFTEN MARRIED WITH CHILDREN?  

Yeah right zen master "I am complete in myself" they go home to a big double bed and smooch up to their wife... .  

If they are single they have a lot of mates or people they have fun with. They might work with people all the time. They are not isolated and "alone".

I think people can only claim these things if they are truly a hermit. Otherwise it is a pack of lies.

[almost789]

For me I think it all boiled down to loneliness. Rather than some deep seated personal abandonemnt wound or other issue. I work, but from home now, where I used to travel around andninteract with people, now I sit in front of a computer all day, no personal interaction, other than this board. My oldest moved out last year, my youngest is almost 17, neither of them are here much and they definitly dont need mom for much anymore. Yes I have friends, but we all live our separatr lives with work and family. So our frienshio is mostly a chat on the phone every now and then. Yes I shoukd have myself involved with more activities, but Im not the type to particularly enjoy womens clubs and things like that. Id much rather have a bf. Thats what I find enjoyment in.

I read lots of books and introspected. I read Jeffery Youngs book, and detailed all my schemas. I tested positive on several, but tlhe book said not on a high enough level for it to be a problem in my life that needs work on. I didnt have any major issues before my bf with BPD. He abandoned me, this caused my me to have a major depression and I think PTSD issues. I had some family problems but ive never experienced a loss of love like this, i wasnt abused. I had a normal healthy happy role models with my grandparents who basically raised me in times of distress with my alcoholic mother. I lived with them most of my life. I have one long term relationship which, a go is fairly healthy, a good career, happy normal family. Im just lonely! And want some company.

I agree with arabella, when can we just go live and maybe find ourselves in that process. Stop this over ananlyzing ourselves, our FOO and just live. That's what I am going to do. I don't ever plan on letting myself get attached to another BPD person. I'm not THAT lonely and I am a whole lot more knowledgable now.

[Cumulus]

These are some interesting threads    Some of the comments have made me feel defensive though, so I have waited a bit to post because I don't want to come across as holier than thou or Miss Perfect, both titles bestowed on me by xBPDh, and if I do,  I'm sorry, I really don't mean to. I am at that place where I do need to find myself, that is why I am here posting, reading and going through the work shops on this site. Some of the comments on this post made me feel like, what is wrong with me, why don't I want to just have fun too. And, do I think that I don't need others and can be entirely alone and fine. Well I am one of those people fortunate enough to have a couple good friends close by, children, and many co worker buddies. None of them touch the loneliness I feel that can only be met by having a SO to share emotional and physical intimacy with. We are not designed to go through life alone. I want that person in my life. But not at the cost I paid with the BPD relationship.

We are all the pilots of our own lives. It is a wonderful thing to have a copilot in the seat next to you, someone to help guide you through stormy weather, to share the joy of a beautiful sunrise and someone you can trust to temporarily take the controls if you are unable.

If that person is untrustworthy it is better flying solo.

If I don't understand how to pick a good person, it is well documented on these pages how one BPD relationship is changed out for another. It does start with understanding myself, I know that I could never have physical intimacy without emotional intimacy. Sure I'd like to go there, it would be comforting, but only temporary. I don't want temporary. No, I don't think that the first man I date will be my future partner, but I want to be aware when I meet someone unhealthy and I want my emotional self to be healthy enough to give and take in a new relationship.  So please don't look down on me, I would love to be able to give up the introspection and just live life. Just have fun. Just have someone. But the cost of what I could get, is just not worth it.

[almost789]

Cumulus, no one is looking down on u for introspection. Were all at different levels. I could nit even think of moving on with another in the beginning. Im way out from my initial break up and self reflection.

[Cumulus]

Thanks LGO2. But I am almost two years out! I just keep telling myself that I have a lot more years to get through.   and you are right, we are at different levels and because we are individuals, albeit with a common issue, we all have different goals as well. Best wishes.

[almost789]

Thats right Cumulus. We do all have different goals. And my comments are soley about ME. I never said in any of my comments that everyone should be or do what I am. I'm not sure why you feel that our comments are about you or that you should feel defensive about what I feel I am ready to do with MY life. I am 15 months out. It still hurts, I still feel sad sometimes and I know others who were "over it" in a few months. My pwBPD told me two weeks after we broke up. He "was" pretty upset about it. As if he "was" upset, but after 2 weeks he was fine. It was a slap in the face, here I am 15 months out and still struggling!

But, back to Arabella, she said she was beffudled with all the talk about looking at yourself. And stressing about all the "thinking and analyzing" it.  I can relate to this because I hear the same thing over and over again. I have looked at myself. I have admitted my wrongs. I was healthy before this. I've taken my inventory, nothing serious found. Is it ok for me to move on now, with another? With out being told I am a co-dependant, a narcissist, a needy person who can't handle being alone. I feel I am ready, I've done my self searching and analyzing my part. I don't need to be told by others who do not know me. No, I think you should look at yourself some more... .  if you need companionship... .  there must be something wrong deep inside you... .  This kind of over analysis and self doubt is frustrating and non productive.

[P.F.Change]

[Cross-posted]

Humans are communal creatures. Most of us do need to feel connected to other people. That's true. There's nothing wrong with wanting to be in a relationship.

But it is not "self-soothing" if we are expecting someone else to make us feel better. There's a difference between learning to manage our own moods and trying to meet our needs through other people.

I think looking for another bf at this point is the opposite of self-soothing... .  it is looking outside yourself for comfort. On another level it is even manipulative if you are hoping it will make your husband jealous enough to change his ways. And that would definitely be unfair to any potential new b/f... .  it objecifies him.

You may very well have unmet emotional needs; you may crave a more fulfilling r/s, and that is certainly ok. But can you be ok being YOU, even if there is not a man around to reassure you that you are loveable and worthwhile? I'm not saying you have to be single... .  but it can be valuable to spend some time growing as an individual before getting involved in another r/s--especially when you've been involved with a pwBPD. People often get themselves into trouble when they rush into another r/s without taking the time to resolve their own underlying issues. Romantic r/ss can serve as a distraction that makes us feel better short-term, but the issues will still be there. Just something to consider.

I'm sorry your first T was so unable to hear you and help you. But there are better ones out there... .  I hope the next one is a better fit. It is important that a T understand your goals and be able to help you feel supported. I hope that will go well for you.

Wishing you peace,

PF

[almost789]

I mentioned this to Arabella in a private message. Me choosing to take a boyfriend was in no way to make my husband jealous. It was for fulfilment for me, in fact I hid it from him initially. What I found happened later, was his reaction was to be more attentive to me. I never manipulated it that way or expected it. It took me by complete suprize. But I appreciate, again, someone elses spin on MY situation.

[P.F.Change]

Dear LGO2,

It seems you think my post was directed to you and was intended to "spin" your situation. That is not the case.

The thread host asked some questions. I gave my opinion to her based on those questions and the general discussion in the thread. My comments are nothing personal to you or your situation.

PF

[almost789]

Ok PF Change, that must have been my naturally defensive nature. I thought you were refering to me, since I was the one who made the comment about it signaling a competative streak in my husband. I thought when you made the statement that "if your doing it to make your husband jealous" that's manipulative was refering to my comment. I apologize, I did assume you were referring to my motive there, but if you weren't than no offense taken! PF.

[arabella]

This thread has taken some fascinating spins - thank you all for your input!

I find it interesting how defensive we can all become (myself included). Do you think it's a result of having been in long term relationships with pwBPD? Truly, I find myself much more 'on-guard' and edgy than I ever was prior to my current r/s (in general, not just on these boards). Of course, there is also the very personal nature of a lot of the 'work' we do here. It's difficult to sort through it all, especially since we are all dealing with our own emotional upheavals off-line. Not to be insensitive or anything, please don't take it that way, but I do actually find these debates helpful - although I am sorry that we all have to go through the turmoil to reap the rewards.

PatientandClear - I think the points you made are very on point. That's how I feel - that I need more emotional input as a social creature. I completely agree that humans are meant to interact and that we feed off that connection. Personally, I think it's healthy. I also agree that one should be able to be alone. The problem arises when a person just can't be happy on their own. One is a choice the other is desperation. I don't think I need a bf. I think I want one. Does that make sense? Of course, I also fear I'm being delusional re my wants vs. needs... .  and thus this thread.

Cumulus - you should never be afraid to post your opinion here, especially since I specifically asked for it! I think it's very healthy to know when you need more time. That doesn't mean you aren't doing well, it means you know yourself - that's actually fantastic! Really, it's too bad that everyone doesn't take the time to stop and really consider things - look before they leap. This is what I'm attempting to do (albeit awkwardly). Everyone has different needs and capacities, it's important not to let someone else's ideas warp your sense of self. You know yourself best. Now I'm just trying to check how well I know myself by posting these questions - it's like self-testing and I want people to challenge me!

P.F.Change - I am definitely not looking at having another bf as a means to manipulate my husband. I have given this a fair amount of thought and I truly don't know how he would feel about the whole thing - so that's not much to work with in terms of trying to manipulate a situation. I also plan to be very upfront about my situation with any potential new suitor, and then he can take it or leave it as he sees fit (some people will be bothered by it, others I'm sure just won't care). I'm trying my best to avoid any collateral damage. As for meeting my needs through other people... .  Well, that's the issue I'm debating here. How to tell if it's something I want to enhance my life vs. using others to meet a need I should be meeting for myself. I mean, it seems there's some consensus here that humans need social connection, so we aren't ever entirely self-sufficient. So how much self-sufficiency is enough? Where's the line?

How do you decide if you taking care of yourself or avoiding your own issues? Geez, that is a tough one. And worse than that, you are the only one who can answer it.

^ This is the problem! I want an answer that I don't have to come up with myself because I don't necessarily trust myself not to just give me the answer I want to hear! (And how convoluted was THAT?) 

The other issue is that, regardless of having another r/s, I'm still not actually single. So testing the theory of being by myself is sort of a moot point. However, I do think that I have the capacity for that. I'm not desperate. Do I have "underlying issues to resolve"? I don't know! That's the problem. Are there specific questions I should be asking myself? Is it okay to just be the type of person who is happier in a r/s as opposed to being single? Or is that just indicative of some sort of 'issue'? I'm making myself dizzy over here. 

[daze]

Daze - aaaand... .  BINGO! It's not self-soothing. This is where I start tying myself in knots. Am I just avoiding my own issues? Filling up some sort of emotional hole in myself that I really should be working on alone? Or is this, as LGO2 said earlier, just human nature to want human connection and more meaningful contact? How can I tell?

Arabella, I'm glad you didn't take my statement on self soothing the wrong way because that's definitely not how I meant it!  Looks like it opened a can of worms though.

The issues you bring up are thought provoking.  I totally understand the need for human connection, physical contact and, yes, VALIDATION from a man - totally normal for a straight woman.

Lol, last fall my uNPD/BPD mom told the man who bought her house (for his fiance who dumped him three weeks after closing on the house) that he should ask me out.  He asked me out but I was in the thick of it and was trying to sort myself out, my role in the destructiveness of the r/s with H, etc.  I couldn't do it.  And the guy looks really good on paper - my age (40s), great looking, well educated, good job, etc.  The red flags for him would be two divorces and then the broken engagement.

But that's just me.  I have issues to address, I love my H, and we're not in an open r/s.



 

[arabella]

Thankfully I like cans of worms (metaphoric ones only, please)! Two divorces and a broken engagement seems like a really big ... .  But then, really it doesn't matter, because if you weren't ready to meet someone then you just weren't, plain and simple. At least you knew that!

So, I signed up on a dating website. No idea how that will go, but I figured there was no harm in at least looking, right? Something's gotta give here and I can't just sit around feeling sorry for myself and wishing I was out doing fun things. Gotta make it happen! I'm working on other stuff too - saying yes to invites from friends, trying to restart my career, signed up for an exercise class with a friend. Uhh... .  what else do people do for fun? Most of my friends are couples and I don't want to do the 3rd wheel tag-along, and I'm really not interested in the bar scene, and I'd rather not just hang out by myself all the time. I had this problem the other day with my husband too, we had some time but couldn't think what to do with it (the weather here is crappy right now, so outdoor activities aren't great) - bear in mind he's avoiding talking to me too. 

[almost789]

Please Please Please be very cautious with the dating websites. That's where I found my pwBPD and had met a couple before him who seemed really nice and cool only to find they weren't so nice and cool after a couple of meetings. I have to stay away from them myself because in a way they trigger me, I can't stand them now. But it could just be my local area doesn't have all that many GREAT guys on dating websites.

[P.F.Change]

I'm working on other stuff too - saying yes to invites from friends, trying to restart my career, signed up for an exercise class with a friend. Uhh... .  what else do people do for fun? Most of my friends are couples and I don't want to do the 3rd wheel tag-along, and I'm really not interested in the bar scene, and I'd rather not just hang out by myself all the time.

Do your married friends not do things without their husbands? What about organizing a regular ladies' night? Go for dinner or drinks or a girly movie or something else the group enjoys?

Your other ideas sound good, too. 

PF

[almost789]

... .  Arabella. Your comment about liking cans of worms. ... .  

I imagined you sitting there eating cans of worms... .  and enjoying it.

[arabella]

Worms = not for eating!

P.F.Change - my married friends do indeed do mostly 'couple stuff'. I think this is because they tend to work a lot of hours so they don't actually see their spouses very often. Also, I'm friends with about an equal split of the women/men in the couples - so that won't really work as a 'ladies' night, unfortunately. And, of course, there's always some awkwardness if I try to hang out with my male friends, who are married, without inviting their wives (lunch is fine, dinner and a movie not so much). Oh, and my two best girlfriends, who would be perfect for getting out with, have moved quite a few hours away. Geesh, how did this even happen? My social circle sounds so odd when I type it out!