Beating a topic to death-I do this

[gina louise]

I need tips for changing this... .  

I have a longstanding habit of becoming a real Polite and tenacious bully when I believe I am right.

I can cajole and debate and fuss and argue and be like a dog on a bone with a topic-even a contentious one- when I feel Justified.

I did it to my Mom as a teenager... asking WHY, WHY NOT, how come she gets to do it and I don't... that's NOT fair... .  and on and on til often my mother would curse me or cry. Not proud of that-and I did make amends to my Mom-over and over for those instances.

BUT... .  I didn't ever learn HOW to alter my behavior. I did it to BOTH  HUSBANDS. Perhaps as a result of not being heard in both RS? I am not blaming THEM-that's simply how it was... .  I felt invisible, and to be taken seriously I felt that I had to debate-and sometimes win if it meant something to me, personally.

SO I would restate my case in a different way-Think JADE to the MAX. I am not happy about this at all.

My stbxBPDh pointed it out and finally after much dodging I had to admit  it.

Yes, that's a part of my reactions and my behavior that I don't like at all. And I am prone to it.

Whatever my reasons/excuses... .  I DID IT. and I want to change it. I never felt I was argumentative or abusive as I never EVER raised my voice, name called or launched an all out attack-just restated MY side.  'Til you wanted to strangle me so I'd SHUT UP.

Clearly it was both abusive and argumentative on MY part!

"?"

GL

[Want2know]

Can you tell us what this has cost you in your life?

[Maryiscontrary]

Man, I was like this... .  

Basically, all I do is SET statements with everybody. I automatically do it, because either the person is gonna wanna hear me or not. I want to remind you that I do not process emotional data efficiently, so I need to utilize tools early in the process.

[gina louise]

 Want2know

Can you tell us what this has cost you in your life?


Oh YEAH!  

it's disturbed my own self image as far as seeing myself as "kind, gentle and giving".

My exhusband1 never wanted to call on his way home and give me ANY news- As I would invariably take it poorly and "punish" him later with it.

By picking a fight or just being pissy and crabby at him for no good reason.

My stbxBPDh also revealed this behavior to me and I fought him tooth and NAIL-that it was NOT possible. Not Moi?

I thought I was the person with nary a mean bone in my body!

NOT.

It contributed to my own unhappiness, angst and to the misery of my intimate partners.

And to a flawed view of myself.

I thought I was always The Nice Person-who never got mad but I cloaked my anger and resentment in self righteous Indignation.

I have to admit to the passive-aggressive tendencies and behaviors if I want to uproot or alter them.

  

I don't Like the Bully in me!

GL

[OTH]

OK. What do you think would be a better way? You identified a problem. What is the solution? A new habit to work on? This isn't coming from a desire to prove yourself to the ex is it?

[gina louise]

OTH

OK. What do you think would be a better way? You identified a problem. What is the solution? A new habit to work on? This isn't coming from a desire to prove yourself to the ex is it?

OH NOO! LOL

stbxBPDh used to tell me I did this, and I fought him nearly to the death over it-having to see myself as the Better Person!

What I would like is to adjust/modify my behaviors and NOT rinse and repeat this when I am tired and frustrated -and not feeling heard. I want to be able to state my Piece-calmly, rationally... .  and DROP it.

I'd prefer to Not worry the topic to pieces, and talk myself to death to WIN. I guess part of that is dropping my NEED to WIN and BE RIGHT.

Recognizing when I am JADEing has really helped me be more aware-but it's HARD to replace what I learned was a "protective" and defensive action-been doing this since I was a little kid. (sorry Ma!)

Perhaps stating my Side (ONCE) and then Immediately validating the other person's Side will help me not to go on and on and on.

GL

[OTH]

Do you feel or worry that you are not heard or understood? FOO issue?

[doubleAries]

WELL!

What a timely topic! I'm not ready to chime in and tell you how to change it, because it's something I need to change as well!

I just spent most of today engaging in this behavior with my stbx, and guess what? Not only did it not work, but now he's pretty upset with me, and I feel literally nauseas. Good job! (NOT)

I think I at least see where this behavior for me started, and maybe that will help me begin to retrain myself to do something else more healthy and productive. My mom is a witch BPD. When I became a teenager, I began to understand that walking on eggshells wasn't exactly working. So I began stomping on them (as much as I could reasonably get away with, without getting stabbed or shot). Mainly in the form of defensiveness. My older brother's method was to pretend her cruelty didn't bother him, as he seethed silently and secretly. And when he would tell me I was making it worse and should follow HIS example, I became defensive with him, too. "Justice" took on an exaggerated sense of importancy. In truth, neither of our methods was more efective than the other in deflecting or preventing our mother from coming unglued on a regular basis. And now I'm stuck with a deeply ingrained coping method that doesn't apply to the life I have now (versus the life I had as a kid).

I'm interested to hear what others may have to say here about overcoming this behavior pattern.

[gina louise]

OTH

Do you feel or worry that you are not heard or understood? FOO issue?

YES and YES... .  

I know with my NPD parents I was never good enough, my feelings discounted and denied over and over. Ridicule and abuse (physical and emotional) bullying from NPD dad til I was 18 and my enabling passive aggressive Mom denied or made excuses for him. Over and over. She adored him. I was adopted. I felt in a lose-lose all the time. I never understood why intelligent, professional parents would be compelled to humiliate their child in order to "feel" Greater Than... .  but there it was. I lived that.

As my Mom was more passive-I was able to state (and over state) my case sometimes. With Dad-NEVER.

that's the short version!

I married two men with strong NPD traits-one a silent seether, one a volcanic rager. They mimicked the familiar FOO behaviors pretty well. From one end of the spectrum to the other.

Now I am free of all of this-soon to be divorced again-and I'm working diligently on ME, myself and I.

doubleAries

I hear you!

My family too had a sense of Justice and fairness, but it was skewed. My birthday is in May but I was forced to wait until July to celebrate ONE birthday party on MY sisters Birthday. My parents explained every year that if I had my birthday FIRST-it wasn't FAIR.(to whom?)

We got exactly matching gifts and did the exact same hobbies or classes... .  like clones. We weren't allowed to BE individuals with any personal preferences. It wasn't until I reached middle school that I realized how ODD my FOO was!

The realization of the Jade-ing seems to help... .  so I can at least curb my habit of over stating and debating past the point of ALL reason.

But I'd like to feel that I can share my opinions safely. Often I find myself almost apologizing first... .  like I'm expecting them NOT to matter!

GL

[Want2know]

Perhaps stating my Side (ONCE) and then Immediately validating the other person's Side will help me not to go on and on and on.

How about switching this around a bit... .  before you state your side, try a variation on validation by using Support and Empathy statements, and then state your Truth (as Mary said she does in her post).

If you can understand where the other person is coming from (Empathy), and build your support and truth around that, you might get better results.  It is about creating a new 'habit' in how you think, process things, and then communicate.

It might be good to practice this here so we can give you some feedback.  Maybe find a post that you've made here that you feel is an example of the behavior you want to 'correct', and restate it in the SET format.  You up for that?

[Maryiscontrary]

Another thing that I think is a common problem is this.

Some people are just not capable of hearing you. SET statement effectiveness is limited, I have read, with people that have empathy failure issues. I was mortified when SET was mostly ineffective with my ex. This person just did not get it. Now, SET has been awesome with my friends and clients... .  so for people that are just  not mentally screwed beyond all hope, it is very effective.

So Gina, some people cannot hear you. HUGE red flag. If they are not interested in hearing you, or for clarifying, you are dealing with EPIC LOSERS.

[seeking balance]

You have been given some good tips on how to respond and where this likely stems from.

When I looked at this topic, what helped me was to truly accept we are all individuals and we all have free will.  Everyone gets to live his/her own life - so me trying to change someone or justify or argue the point... .  well, that is a bit arrogant now isn't it?  Once I was able to accept this was one of my character flaws (none of us are perfect) - I was able to let go.

Now - when I agree to disagree - I ask myself, "SB - Do you want to be happy or do you want to be right?"

If it is a topic that has crossed a fundamental boundary of mine - I ACT accordingly - not try to change someone with words.

Good Topic GL - keep focused on self - very good.

[gina louise]

I am not so polished at SET-it never worked at all on my uBPD (w/NPD traits) H.  SET always fell flat and made things worse.

Validation worked on him like magic pixie dust-but SET was lost on him

for sure I will review SET again and try it- especially with r/s partners!

I want to add that I never felt the need to repeatedly bash my kids, friends or coworkers or my many dozens of employees with this behavior-it flared with only my intimate partners-and my Parents. So I felt it had to be a core wound "defense"... .  it became so much a part of my reactions!

I didn't like it then-and I want to work on it now... .  

thanks!   

GL

[Maryiscontrary]

Just don't take it personally if the person is do deranged they can't hear you after you do a SET type of technique.


In fact, if you practice with the Nonviolent communication technique... .  that is, sincely express an effort to be empathetic and to be clear... .  and it fails... .  this might be a really nice boundary for you to look at.

That is, after due diligence, if you are not being heard, it probably does not make since in continuing the conversation, because no bona fide communication is taking place.

As I said before, I went NC, because I had literally exhausted all other options to be heard and to negotiate. No meaningful communication was being exchanged. All communication was doing was triggering worse psychosis in him. I have NEVER felt so powerless in my life at that point. Too messed up to have a meeting of the minds at any level.

[AnotherPhoenix]

Gina Louise  ,

I've learned the same thing about myself. I used to do that a lot more than I thought. I too was the "ghost" child. Just realizing that I was doing it was the biggest factor in reducing it. I still do it some. As others have said, listening to the other person state their point of view and showing them that you understand their point of view really helps. Everybody wants to be heard and understood. It's hard for most people to listen when they've got their own need to be heard banging around in their head. The SET approach does help a lot for me if it is something somebody does.

Another thing I've learned is how much I wanted to be "right." I'm learning what Want2Know and others have pointed out: Everybody has a right to their own opinion. And just because you have a different opinion than I do, doesn't make you wrong or me right, or vice versa.

How many times to state something? It depends on the situation.





By the way, you sound like you are a wonderfully nice and compassionate person. Even if you sometimes repeat yourself and "push" when you are trying to make a point. That's ok. A lot of people do this and don't know it. I'm sure I do it a lot more than I think I do. Sometimes being pushy is the right thing to do. This habit might make it difficult to disagree with you, but you have a lot of great qualities that more than offset this.



I understand your wanting to change and improve, of course, that is good. You also sound very critical and harsh with yourself about this. I used to do that to help "push" myself into doing things. That might have help me get something done, but it left bad feelings in my head that would make it harder to do in the future.

One thing that helps me with change and just feel better is to work hard on my self-compassion. I didn't realize that I was missing self-compassion and the ability to self-soothe because it wasn't present in my family. I've learned that it is huge to me, particularly regarding changing myself. It's like self-acceptance but more. To me, it's like being as compassionate and kind to yourself as you would a child. If I'm hurting, I say something to myself like "wow, you are in a lot of pain." I often find that rubbing my arms, legs, head, neck compassionately while saying something like that works well for me. When I do these things, I feel the compassion coming from myself through my arms and hands and flowing into the part I am rubbing. It is almost a physical feeling. Another part of being compassionate is being patient with myself, allowing and accepting mistakes or personal flaws. I'm still trying to do the best for me that I know how.

I hope you are being compassionate with yourself. You deserve it. Your are going through so much. And you are doing so much to improve your life.

Sending lots of hugs,

AnotherPheonix

[Maryiscontrary]

Gina, there is nothing wrong with walking away from a conversation is somebody does not want to listen to you.

[AnotherPhoenix]

Gina, there is nothing wrong with walking away from a conversation is somebody does not want to listen to you.

Excellent point! And, walking away may give them more incentive to listen to you the next time.

[GustheDog]

Do you feel or worry that you are not heard or understood? FOO issue?

Yeah, I do this too.  It can get bad.  And, yes, it's a FOO issue.

I've gotten much better recently, however, as I started focusing on being happy over being "right."

[OTH]

 We want to be heard and understood by the people who don't hear us and understand us. We grew up that way. Actually quite natural if you think about it. A difficult habit to overcome. Better r/s skills? Not letting problems be undiscussed or unresolved to keep the boat level? What else? What's our part? What can we change?

[gina louise]

Well, with my husband,  problems remained unresolved and not discussed if he had his way! he wanted everything swept under a very heavy thick rug of "we're DONE with this", that is AFTER he has his rant about it.

We are in the midst of divorce proceedings but We have been talking recently after the death last week of my father-they liked each other-both NPD men. I always called them kindred souls.

The only thing I can change is MY need to be right and my need to have MY resolution.

Radical acceptance-of the Way things are with some people... .  

that I can't "talk" someone into hearing me, if they cannot, or will not, no matter how much or how tenaciously I try. no matter how much I Want it otherwise.

GL

[OTH]

Learning detachment might be a good tool also. When a relationship is not working well at the time how can you bow out gracefully and go your own path or spend time in other relationships. To some extent all relationships need this to one extreme or the other. I haven't talked to my dad who is probably upbd in 15 years. I am fine with that at this point in my life. My mother was raised strict Catholic and is very codependent. Our relationship is stressful to me. Things were better for years between us when I went my own way and stopped trying to please her. We lived several thousand miles apart during this time. I moved closer to her recently and our old problems have come back. She still doesn't hear me or really appreciate who I am. I don't know if I'll ever resolve that conflict because she still feels I'm wrong and in need of correction. LOL. I can't say I can just drop that. I'll probably try to be heard again but I'm giving that relationship a rest to let my feelings settle from my recent attempt to improve our understanding of each other.

I think my mom is a good place for me to practice my conflict resolution and relationship skills with. I know I need work there and I also know she wants a better relationship with me. I don't think we can get better unless we find safe relationships to practice, learn, and grow with.

[gina louise]

OTH

Learning detachment might be a good tool also.


YES indeed!

If I had been better at this and had more outside r/s to GO to outside the primary one with my husband,  we/I might have managed better.

He's not a bad person-until I made him my ONLY person, and that was too much for him to handle. I believe he's wanting to reconcile-now that he's in T... .  but I don't want a recycle. EVER

I have been thrown out twice by him during extended rages. Once not married, once married. That's one too many!

I've had LC with FOO for many years-I control how much, and when I see them-even though we are all local. it works for me.

I was finding that I was the only one making most attempts to connect with FOO members, and it would frustrate me-so I stopped.  It was Like herding cats. A lot of noise, some hissing, fur might fly... .  and not much accomplished.

Now we talk if there's a holiday,  personal need, or a FOO event.(wedding, funeral)

GL

[Want2know]

I believe he's wanting to reconcile-now that he's in T... .  but I don't want a recycle. EVER

Forgive me if you've already mentioned this, so to clarify, you are still married, don't want to reconcile, but are you still living with him?

[gina louise]

Want2know

Forgive me if you've already mentioned this, so to clarify, you are still married, don't want to reconcile, but are you still living with him?

Still married as of now-he filed for divorce in Nov 2012, I got a  lawyer.

We already have a settlement agreement-waiting for approval and judge to sign.

NOT living together. NO spousal support so far. We live over 2 hours drive apart.

I started LC since my Dad died suddenly last week. I called and told him, and he was supportive as he's gone through it.

he's just been hinting that he's STILL my husband,  and we are still married, and he intends to "be supportive", whatever that means to him.

frankly, I didn't expect him to care at all-but he liked my Dad and my Dad liked him.

GL