Boundaries and isolation - a different take

[NotTheMama]

So I didn't want to thread hijack, but the Boundaries vs. Isolation thread got me thinking about a topic I wanted to get some feedback on.

I wonder if you would mind talking a little bit about what you get out of talking to your relatives.  My biggest struggle is that I don't want to call or be called by, or visit or email or anything with my family really.  Supposing I did call my sister, say, and she starts going on about tarot cards or psychics or financial difficulty or some problem she has with her boss at work that's likely due to her attitude or behavior.  I don't really feel like being talked at anymore, and I sure as heck don't want to take their problems on as my own, which is what always ends up happening.  And the tone from my mom and my sisters is almost ALWAYS negative.  I can't take hearing it anymore.

I mean, I pay my bills, so I never have problems with services being cut off.  I do my job, so my boss doesn't complain.  I have AAA and keep my car in good repair, so I don't need to call anybody for rescue.  I have insurance, so I can take care of my own health needs and so forth.  These are normal, everyday things that everybody else does to take care of their business.  So why with all the crises among my family?

Maybe they just burned me out.  But I don't call them to burden them with my problems, and I don't babble about stuff that doesn't interest them anyway, and likewise, even if they're not being negative with the stuff they're saying, I just feel like saying, "So what?  OK, so, nice to hear your voice.  Bye bye!" 

But really it's like this with everyone except my husband.  Why do I never want to talk to anyone on the phone or go hang out with them?   It's so much easier to ignore people than it is to risk having to tell them that they've taken up enough of my time and I have to go now.  I feel like I've traded one maladaptive behavior for another one (boundaries = isolation).

[CBoo]

I sometimes wonder if this is a stage some of us need to go through.  I was very isolated for a period of about 3/4 years, until I felt comfortable to invite some people back in.  I think you probably need enough space to get who you are and what you want clear, and then you can make decisions about how you conduct your relationships. 

Don't beat yourself up for this. Take the space you need.

[Vivgood]

You sound like an introvert. Which is not pathological by any means, but can be interpreted that way (by others and by you) in the context of the aggressively extroverted US culture.  You could be cocooning, as mentioned, to help yourself heal from FOO damage... .  you could have some depression going on. Cocooning is a valid self-healing, self-soothing impulse. Depression, if you have BPDs in your immediate family, seems like a very reasonable outcome! Not wanting to deal with your family's crazy doesn't sound like a bad thing, it sounds sensible.

Do you find too much interaction with others draining? After you experience a big social event, do you feel like you need time alone to recharge?

Personally, between work, my DH, our 3 adults kids, the cats, the wretched cars, the house, and trying to keep up with Game of Thrones... .  calling someone to "hang out" sounds like WAAAAY too much effort for way too little reward. Its okay to prefer less social interaction than average (whatever that is), whether its a temporary thing or whether its your personality style. If depression is a concern, I would talk to my physician and get medical guidance- there is a wide range of options for dealing effectively with depression, both pharmaceutical and behavioral.

What I get out of talking to my relatives:

I love my parents dearly and I want to be a support to them as they become more and more frail (76 and 79 yo, various health issues). Their lives revolve around my sisters (1= BPD, 1=hoarder) and their kids (1 girl, 4 boys), trying to "help" them with their crazy.I stay out of that, I don't personalize it, I don't see it as anything i can fix, solve or alleviate. I'm just a caring ear to bend. I guess I get to feel like I'm helping my parents without taking on any of my sisters' crazy. I can only accomplish this by being compassionately disengaged, which I can only accomplish by emotional and geographic distance from the FOO. Does that make sense 

vivgood

[NotTheMama]

After a big social event, I frequently get a headache, even if I have a really good time.  I think it's a combination of muscular tension from laughing a lot, and the side effects of serotonin spiking (I don't drink alcohol, so it's not a hangover or whatever).  In general, even if an event is something that I genuinely want to do and look forward to, I still have a lot of dread leading up to actually going to the event, and often have to drag myself to go.

What's really weird is that I was always described as very outgoing when I was a kid;  I would talk to absolutely anybody, and far more than was necessary, according to my family.  Is it possible for basic underlying personality to change like that?

On the other hand, now that I think about it, maybe I wasn't really a chatterbox.  Maybe I was just a normal kid and my normal kid attention-seeking behavior took the spotlight away from where it REALLY belonged, on them.  Also, it's probably to be expected that I would talk at great length to absolutely anybody even when it wasn't appropriate, because, after all, there's no such thing as boundaries when you're raised in this particular kind of dysfunctional family.  When I was allowed out of that situation and began to realize my own personality, maybe that's when I started to turn more inward.  My husband's also that way, and since we've been together since my early teens, I feel like I might have adopted his identity as my own to a certain extent.  I am absolutely not ready to examine that area at all.

I definitely feel like there are a small handful of people that I have found worth connecting with and feel comfortable with them texting, emailing, calling, dropping by, whatever.  Because they have shown me through YEARS of acceptable behavior that they will not take advantage of letting them in to my life.

Heh, absolutely, depression is part of the mix.  Mental illness runs in my family on both sides it would seem, and I feel fortunate that dysthymia is the only one I have to contend with.  I'm well-regulated on medication and ongoing therapy.  But I still tend to be a worrier, feel anxious about moving from one activity to a new one, and have generally low energy.  I'm functional, so the depression is not something I worry about (wow, something doesn't worry me!  I call that a success indicator!  ).

So for now, I won't sweat it too much.  Even if I stay in this cocooning phase for several more years (I'd say it's been 10 or more already), or forever, I guess that's my choice to make.  And there is a Game of Thrones disk awaiting me in the mailbox, so I'll be having some quiet time at home tonight and greatly look forward to getting together with a friend and his parents tomorrow night!  I will try not to let the dread drag me down in the hours leading up to it.

Thanks to both of you for your input.

[Clearmind]

I was a chatterbox too and very bubbly with strangers etc. Girls I think do tend to model behaviors from more than just their primary care givers. Its possible I was seeking attention where I wasn't getting it at home. Although I must say my Mum was supportive - however given she was also dealing with a BPDH (my father) there is only so much left to give to me.

Supposing I did call my sister, say, and she starts going on about tarot cards or psychics or financial difficulty or some problem she has with her boss at work that's likely due to her attitude or behavior.  I don't really feel like being talked at anymore, and I sure as heck don't want to take their problems on as my own, which is what always ends up happening.  And the tone from my mom and my sisters is almost ALWAYS negative.  I can't take hearing it anymore.

I use to feel the same – NotTheMama when I first heard about BPD, my father is likely to be BPD, I went no contact – I didn’t want to deal with it. I soon realized it was not so much having to deal with it at all. I don’t have to make things OK for him – this is more about perception than anything.

If your sister or mom fly into victim mode – what can we do to counter-balance this? To detach with love?

I mean, I pay my bills, so I never have problems with services being cut off.  I do my job, so my boss doesn't complain.  I have AAA and keep my car in good repair, so I don't need to call anybody for rescue.  I have insurance, so I can take care of my own health needs and so forth.  These are normal, everyday things that everybody else does to take care of their business.  So why with all the crises among my family?

Maybe they just burned me out.  But I don't call them to burden them with my problems, and I don't babble about stuff that doesn't interest them anyway, and likewise, even if they're not being negative with the stuff they're saying, I just feel like saying, "So what?  OK, so, nice to hear your voice.  Bye bye!"  

This is my own personal take. My brother and I have come out the other side of our childhoods very differently. I was more of the golden child – apple of my fathers eye – it helped because I was so so very obedient. I was the peace keeper and without realizing it I tried to become that little more perfect everyday – not realizing as an adult that perfection is a fallacy.

My brother on the hand is chaos personified – abandonment issues, yes, just like me however not BPD. He is a wonderful human being who I’m very proud of however he was not blessed with the ‘need for perfection’ trait.

The difference being was personality – he rebelled as a child and I obeyed. By obeying I didn’t want to disappoint so as an adult, I became super independent with money, property, saving etc. My brother processed it in other ways.

So, we all come out the other end for a very good reason. I accept my brother and uBPD father for who they are and what they show me to be rather than what my expectations dictate.

Acceptance really is the only way we can move through the “burn out”. Burn out often happens because of enmeshment – not separating the “us” and “them” – use this time to focus on your values and who you are – accept you don’t have to make everything all better for them (Good book by the Way), keep conversations short, validating the emotions (rather than believing the negativity) and move on with the conversation and keep it relatively superficial and light can also help.

But really it's like this with everyone except my husband.  Why do I never want to talk to anyone on the phone or go hang out with them?   It's so much easier to ignore people than it is to risk having to tell them that they've taken up enough of my time and I have to go now.  I feel like I've traded one maladaptive behavior for another one (boundaries = isolation).

Great insight NTM.

Answer is likely burn out – isolating yourself is safe which is the reason I’m not an advocate of no contact. No contact often fails and it does little to help us develop our coping skills.

You are no longer the mama – get to know you, remove yourself from the enmeshment so you don’t feel “dragged” into the fold. Remind yourself you don’t have to make everything all better.

Also, to balance this – I also went through a phase of “isolation” although I preferred to call it my “transitional phase” – we often need to conserve energy, develop healthy boundaries to be able to put ourselves out there so to speak. Its OK NTM!

We fear being trampled on – you my friend – cannot be abandoned as an adult – you are more than capable of looking after yourself – you may need to trust yourself more. Begin to look at peoples actions rather than words - goodness knows our childhoods were full of contradiction - no wonder we are confused.

Any other ideas NTM how you can process this?

[NotTheMama]

Thank you for your input, Clearmind!  So, my question while I'm thinking about that is, why bother?  What possible benefit is it to my life to subject myself to their negativity and general annoying-ness even if I can avoid going into fix-it-for-them mode?

[Clearmind]

Thank you for your input, Clearmind!  So, my question while I'm thinking about that is, why bother?  What possible benefit is it to my life to subject myself to their negativity and general annoying-ness even if I can avoid going into fix-it-for-them mode?

Very good question. Its likely you are a fixer by personality - what doesn't help is avoidance - we can build strength through adversity/pain/frustration and work through those triggers.

We will always be triggered by things NTM - how we process it really is the key here.

What is the benefit to you? We can jump in the shallow end of the pool, swim a little, be able to touch the bottom, we can even put on a flotation device (aka surround ourselves with lots of padding) for added security and protection. This is the safe zone, no need to work through vulnerabilities, boundaries, coping skills.

The "shallow end" has a flow on effect to other aspects of our lives - work, home, hubbies, friends, new folks in your life.

OR

We can start in the shallow end and gradually move to the deep end - armed with healthy boundaries, a good sense of self and the ability to detach with love.

This is what I strive for - I was NC with my father for 5 months - I now have a great r/s with him - I know when to pull back when to call, when not to go to his house - I know my limits, have firm boundaries in place. E.g he is a drinker - I don't call him after 5pm. Its good.

I have learnt to accept the limitations and work with what I am shown - not act out of expectation.

What we fear by NC, working on ourselves - is vulnerability, maybe the possibility of it bringing up childhood wounds, replaying that record over and over - However this is all absolutely necessary to heal - the flip side we hide, stay in our safe zone ---> no growth.

What can you do if your family calls you with the "woe is me" act? <---- this is important to work through if you wish to free yourself of the burden

[NotTheMama]

I agree with what you're saying, that we grow by working past these triggers.  That's what I do in therapy, for the past dozen or so years, so that I can deal with healthy people in a healthy way.  My question is slightly different-- why should I expose myself to these particular people who are known to be toxic.  To me, it's not a matter of avoidance as a coping mechanism, but more a case of, ":)oc, it hurts when I hit my head against the wall," "Well, stop hitting your head against the wall then!"

I understand it is worthwhile to learn to deal with people and conflict head-on when there is otherwise something to gain from the relationship in general.  For example, my husband and I have enjoyed several years of marriage free of angry yelling as a result of learning how to fight fair.

Running up hills is good exercise, but if you only ever run uphill, you don't realize the benefits that it has on your flat-ground running.  What do I have to look forward to if I learn to interact with my FOO without engaging in "fixing" behavior?  It would still be a constant uphill run.  In other words, it seems like taking on a lot of extra work for nothing, and I'm all full up on extra work as it is.

[Clearmind]

NTM - I cannot answer that question for you!

Often our own patterns of relating which includes fixing can assist in making things worse. I have for the last 2 years made an enormous effort to fix me and to stop making things worse and all I can say is that my relationship with my father has been better than ever.

Yes it has limitations, however I have reached a level of acceptance where I now know when to pull back to protect myself. With this I can develop a relationship/a foundation for a relationship that I didn't have before - I was just bitter, twisted and angry.

My attitude has changed - my perception has changed - my expectations have changed.

We all need to find our own equilibrium/balance in what we can provide/what we can't provide and how much we are willing/won't invest.