how do I carry on in a healthy way in this friendship with BPDex?

[patientandclear]

Thanks y'all.

Briefcase, I so appreciate what you wrote, about how what I said to him wasn't actually an instance of co-dependent fixing or intruding, but my instinct to now go back and try to "walk it back" because of his reaction, is the real issue.  I think you've hit the nail on the head ... .   I was driving to work this morning thinking "actually, I'm fine with what I asked him & told him.  I've stayed out of his stuff all this time, almost two years, despite that his emotional messiness has erupted all over my life several times in ways that were quite hurtful.  I have stepped back, taken care of myself, accepted who he is -- repeatedly, as I've learned more about that -- and finally, he went to a place where it would have been very strange not to comment that his actions are going to mean a loss for me, for us, for him to the extent he values our closeness.  I'm fine that I raised those issues."

I really do understand co-dependency from the inside, I lived that way for many years.  I haven't been co-dependent with this man.

But I have been driven by a desire not to lose him.  So I have accommodated myself and accommodated myself and tried to get inside his head to make sure I didn't screw up and lose him again.  I think that, rather than co-dependency, is what you are all detecting.

So rather than second-guess the strong and clear instinct I had to ask those questions, the ones that seem to have driven him away, I am going to embrace the fact that I said something that was true to me, something that was warm, loving but questioning and challenging toward him ... .   and let the chips fall where they fall.  It's in his court now, and he decides how he processes and handles what I conveyed.

This may be very particular to my journey out of co-dependency, but all along in this r/s, I've made decisions to have boundaries, to back off, to face reality, to not try to make him into someone he isn't.  But I've had such a hard time feeling good about those decisions ... .   because they haven't led to a "good" outcome, in the sense of an easy, stable, comfortable, close r/s between us, with all the hurts repaired and a simple happy ending.  So yes, like Briefcase said, I have a tendency then to want to "walk it back" and regret & revisit my solid decisions to have boundaries and face and state reality.  Because I have some sense that if I just made the right decisions & choices, there would be a better outcome.

I think that concept is really dangerous when dealing with someone with BPD.  This thread has helped me expose how deeply entrenched that notion is in me -- that if I do what's right, by myself and the person I love, I can fix the outcome.

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[MaybeSo]

MaybeSo, you say I should be less concerned about the impact on him & his response to me.  I finally asked these damn questions because was feeling some instinct to, I don't know, protest the cost to us of his choices, at long last.  All this time, I haven't done that, and it was starting to feel inauthentic to just act like ok, that's a valid choice.  When someone we love is careening around smashing up things in their life, even if we don't try to make it better for them, don't we at least say "hey, I notice you're smashing things you care about, what is that about?"

Ah, well, I try not to editorialize to other adults about how they are 'careening and smashing up things in their lives'.  I probably do it on here sometimes (yikes!)  and use to do it all the time with my ex (not appreciated btw) but now, it's usually only if I'm asked for specific feedback from someone.  Most peole are doing the best they can!  I wouldn't really appreciate someone who has their own life issues to deal with, telling me I'm careening around and smashing up things in my life".  Physican heal theyself, you know!  I think you come dangerously close to being in a parental role (this is a one-up/one-down position) with someone when you critique another adults life choices in that manner. You have to be aware that you are the least unbiased person with this guy too, right? You are anxious about his move for your own reasons, he is a sepaerate person from you.   When we love someone we are NOT unbiased.  What may be out of control from your point of view may be a needed life change for someone else.  How the hell do we presume to know what is right for another person? (this is codependence btw... .   )

In close relationships you have to be really careful, it's not like you don't have your own agenda here... .   so, I don't know... .   I'd be careful about that kind of critique.  That's doesn't mean you don't get to take care of yourself.  If someone's behavior is directly damaging to ME PERSONALLY I will say something like STOP IT!... .   and distance myself as necessary if they can't be counted on to stop it.

I'm trying to understand whether my questions were an example of my saying what I needed to say & now I need to detach with love from his response or lack thereof.  Or were they me stepping over the line into co-dependence, as you both say; and if so, do I need to correct that?  Should I apologize?  Reach out with some innocuous communication on other topics?  I've been waiting for him to reply since, well, it's his turn, and I figure he needs time and space to process what I said.  But now it is starting to feel like he won't, or that perhaps it would be appropriate for me to repair what I broke here by intruding into his business and trying to clean up his side of the street, as it were.

[/b]

I think when a person is taking space it's best to let them take space.  In a while if I heard nothing I'd probably send a quick note to check in and see how they are doing.

I really do understand co-dependency from the inside, I lived that way for many years.  I haven't been co-dependent with this man.

But I have been driven by a desire not to lose him.  So I have accommodated myself and accommodated myself and tried to get inside his head to make sure I didn't screw up and lose him again.  I think that, rather than co-dependency, is what you are all detecting.

Honey, this IS codependence. What about this isn't just like an addiction?  That's what CD is!

Your anxiety about what he will or won't do is palpable.  The addiction is to sooth the anxiety by reaching out again as though he fixes your anxiety for you, as thugh to loose him you will loose your ability to feel okay... .   over and over, and fixing, and apologizing, and walking on eggshells, and fixing some more, and ruminating some more to keep him.  You can do this yourself, you do not need him to help you with your anxiety.  The belief with Codependce is that we need or requre this person to help manage our emotinal states.  

Try just sitting with your OWN anxiety and soothing yourself without involving him at all.  Try just being with yourself and NOT KNOWING.  Try just not getting your 'fix' the way you normally do.  

“Be patient toward all that is unsolved in your heart and try to love the questions themselves, like locked rooms and like books that are now written in a very foreign tongue. Do not now seek the answers, which cannot be given you because you would not be able to live them. And the point is, to live everything. Live the questions now. Perhaps you will then gradually, without noticing it, live along some distant day into the answer.”

― Rainer Maria Rilke





 

[waitaminute]

I don't think that caring and sacrificing for a BPD person is necessarily so bad... .   under any named behavior, beit "codependency" or friendship. If one is ruining their life as a result, ok... .   It's not healthy and needs some limits placed on the behavior.

The statement "that's not love" should maybe read "that's not a balanced relationship". And with a BPD, that imbalance may exist for the lifetime of the people involved. But I find that not so different than true love, committed love, or unconditional love... .   Irrational and unbalanced as it may seem.

My 2 cents.

[MaybeSo]

I don't think that caring and sacrificing for a BPD person is necessarily so bad... .   under any named behavior, beit "codependency" or friendship

The concept of co-dependency and emotional dependency can be very confusing.  There are many many articles and threads available on it, and it is a big enough topic that it often  needs it's own thread for further exploration.  

However, the word 'codependency' (or dependent personality in the DSM IV) is referring to a caretaking or enmeshed situation that has become unhealthy in the sense that we become less differeniated (have a lesser sense of self) and have become emotionally dependent upon the other to the point of being self-abandoning... .   much like an addiction.  

Some folks can take on a caregiving role, but to do it in the most healthy way, they have to learn about taking care of self and setting limits and boundaries lest they easily move into a codependent arrangement where both the caretaker and the ill one become less healthy together.  Many of the skills taught on the Staying Board are designed to assist in learning this self care.  The idea of taking care of self is often quite foriegn to care-taking personalities.

On the Staying Board, it's not unheard of for healthy stayers to move into a a mental state where they are "willing to leave" if necessary.  In my opinion, the emotional willingness and/or ability to leave if necessary,  paradoxically,  makes for a healthier "stayer" for as long as we stay.  It's part of detaching with love.

I can have unconditional love for someone, without necessarily staying or being in close quarters.  I do have my limits in staying in very close proximity to someone. Sometimes, I love someone (unconditionally) but from a distance for my own safety or well being.  The kind of unconditional love that invovles close proximty and caregiving is usually reserved for infants, small children and folks who truly are incapable of meeting their own basic needs without constant help and supervision.    

[patientandclear]

This is such an interesting discussion (and I know it is soon to be shut down for reaching 4 pages!).  I think for me this is intensely confusing because I have continuously drawn back from my r/s with this man onto ground I thought was firm, only to find it was not firm.  I did not "recycle" romantically/sexually, not even the first time.  I checked carefully for what he was able to give in an intimate friendship and I participated in that, because it was valuable to me and seemed reciprocal.  When he drew back, I let him, and I didn't allow anything that felt unequal or abusive.

However, the reality is that he asked me for a lot emotionally (and he gave a lot).  We were really close.  I don't think that is an addiction--I think it is a relationship. Then he left.  This is the latest installation in a pattern of eternal leaving -- it isn't some sudden major life change.  It was super impulsive -- he flips back and forth week to week about whether he is coming back, or moving to X.  It is very painful for me that he suddenly left, and I don't think it's because I am addicted to him, I think it's because I care about him and he suddenly ripped away the structure for our relationship that he as well as I built.  I think objecting to this is OK because it affects me (which is what I told him).

I'm struggling with the approach that you don't need other people to do XY or Z for you, you can do all that for yourself ... .   Sue Johnson, in Hold Me Tight/Seven Conversations for a Lifetime of Love, talks about how the quest for complete emotional independence is misplaced.  We do need other people.  I need him; he is one of the people I most care for.  I can learn to live without him, of course, and if the result of this latest twist is that I have to, it's a loss I will have to assimilate.  But I wanted to try to live with him (not literally), and because of his attachment disorder, it's damn hard.  So of course I've tried to figure out what's up with him.  I think this is like what Waitaminute is saying ... .  

Maybe I'm at a point where caring about him has involved too much ripping away too many times and I just can't do it any more. But if I am going to care, and we are going to be connected, how do I accept that one day we are intensely close, and the next, I have no idea where he is headed or whether I will ever see him again?  It seems to me that part of my side of that story is to protest.  Part of it is to assert that that is not what it means to care about someone.  I am not expecting to change him.  But I am expecting him to hear that that is my view and my feeling.  :)oes that make sense?

[MaybeSo]

I love Sue Johnsons work and know it well.

In urging you to focus on soothing your own anxiety and practice doing that without him, im not suggesting you don't need connection with others or that connection isn't important. It is vitally  important, of course.

How long have you not heard from him?

I'm suggesting not all folks are willing or able to hold you tight as needed or requested,  and when that happens, we learn to hold a space for ourselves. Sue Johnsons work is geared specifically to couples using attachment theory to strengthen and heal their relationship. All people go through times when they are not in that kind of relationship, and

they self sooth or seek nurturance elsewhere if we don't have a partner or don't have a

partner willing or able to meet our attachment needs. In large part this forum fills some

attachment needs for us,  as does family, friends, a good therapist, etc.

You did share how you felt, right? There isn't anything wrong with that, we just don't always

get the response we wish for, right?  He hasn't responded the way you hoped. This is

disappointing. What do you want to do?

He is described as someone who is eternally leaving. If he stopped doing that it would be a

huge change. You said you don't want him to change... .   what do you want?

What would be helpful to you at this point?  We have no control over him, what would be

helpful for you?

[waitaminute]

patientandclear,

I hope my posts don't encourage your continued attachment beyond what is good for you. It's dangerous ground compared to the safety of complete detachment. The people here are more experienced than me in this matter and if they see an unhealthy codependence, then maybe that's what it is. Certainly in a forum like this, the attachment to a BPD can be so devestating and destructive that it's better to err on the side of advocating a safe and complete detachment devoid of any trace of even benign codependence ( and sorry if that's an oxymoron. ) It might even be the responsible thing to do for many of our brothers and sisters here that are at the end of their rope.

But I've read too many posts not only here but elsewhere that advocate the kind of self sufficiency that your reference to Sue Johnson seems to refute. And I agree with your one liner synopsis of her book... .   needing other people is OK... .   and maybe even essential for some of us. So I'm really just throwing in a little balance from that side. I wouldn't do it if you seemed unable to cope with the reality of your ex's behavior.

I also post because I put myself somewhat in your situation. Many differences too. But the way you express your position resonates with me more than any other story here. I won't take up your thread with my details though.

I do want to say that to the extent we have any similarity in our situations, I believe that your sense that you have failed is just your tired frustration showing. You have seen how your patience has given him a feeling of safety with you. Your questions to him were appropriate. But there is a price to pay for being appropriate. And I think that price is now the additional patience that you must have, waiting for his return over a longer than typical period of time. You are safe ground for him... .   even with your last set of questions. Maybe you will decide that it's just not worth the additional wait. Or maybe you will see a harmful version of codependency within yourself. But if you are inclined to wait for him, I think you will get your friend back.

In my case, I can't imagine things actually getting better that what you have achieved. And I'm Ok with that for right now. I have no idea how to meet my real relationship needs with another normal woman while maintaining this precarious balance with my BPDex. But I'm not looking for another normal woman right now so I will just have to cross that bridge when I come to it.

It would be good advice if someone told me ':)on't get lost. Make sure you can find your way back'. So I say the same thing to you

[patientandclear]

Just sneaking in here one more time before someone closes this thread to say a huge "thank you" to everyone who has pushed me forward and helped work through several different values in tension in many of our situations, here on this thread.  MaybeSo & Waitaminute, for different reasons, profound thanks for your last two posts.  They made me cry, in a very good way.

MaybeSo, yes, I am still learning to wait and sit through the anxiety, to realize I am only a part of this relationship, he is the other part & I cannot do his part for him; and that I am OK where I am.  This is a very big change from where I was 20 or even 10 years ago, and it still doesn't come super naturally (as you can tell from all my second-guessing).  When he was first on the brink of breaking up with me, he said he didn't know how to bridge the gap between us, but I had the skills to do it.  Out of my mouth unbidden came the words "I can't do 100%.  I can only do half."  I'd tried to do 100% in other relationships and got absolutely nowhere but miserable.  But him asking me to bridge the gap still exerted (and exerts) a big tug, and not trying to do that still feels awkward and like I am not doing something I'm supposed to be doing -- saving our love, making things turn out OK.  MaybeSo, I've learned so much from your practice of acceptance.  It's still just a little scary for me, but I'm practicing.

Waitaminute, thank you for that beautiful post.  Thanks for understanding that the struggle for the relationship maybe can be a good thing.  Your comment that there is a price to be paid for being appropriate, and your sense that I will get my friend back with additional patience, were calming and felt like a true description of this situation.  Waiting for him, since I am not "waiting" in any sense other than leaving a space for him in my heart, costs me nothing and I will certainly do that.  Whether I can afford to care as deeply for him as I have, when I also have to accept he eternally leaves, I don't know, but I can figure that out later ... .   I will say back to you, ":)on't get lost.  Make sure you can find your way back."

Thank you all both for your kindness and for pushing me.

P&C

[GreenMango]

Well folks its 4 pages time to lock this one up and a good note to close with. 

Take care