Even when they stop screaming

[WorriedSibling]

My brother is in the process of separation from his BPD wife of 7 years.  He and autistic son have been through hell and back.  To give you an idea her last convo (I overheard everything on his cell) while she was in calm mode each and every word that came out of her mouth was vile & manipulative.  Example:  in calm mode `I know this is not your fault`, but he ... .   doesn`t miss you, he doesn`t love you, you don`t know how to show love.  ... .     is happier without you, sign the agreement and you will see him... .   I know it this is better for him, he does not need you.  He is better without you.  You do not know how to show love, I do.  SIGN THE PAPERS!

He listened to this garbage for 20 minutes is it no wonder their no healing between a BPD AND NON during a break-up.  My brother is a shell of the man he once was and the abuse just continues, I am so fearful for his sanity as well as my own!

[momtara]

I hope he is taping these conversations. What a shame.  Hard enough to have an autistic son without having a BPD wife.  HOpe it works out.  You're a good sis for caring.

[marbleloser]

I agree.He needs to be recording and keeping all texts and emails.

I get some of the same from stbx and then I get some rational texts that make sense.Those scare me for some reason.

She's trying to convince him that he's not who he thinks he is.She's probably done this for years.It's a form of gaslighting and projecting.

Have him come on the boards.We'll help him any way we possibly can.

[Matt]

Is he trying to negotiate custody directly with her, by phone?  There is no chance that will work.

Does he have an attorney?

He should probably file a motion for temporary orders - maybe shared custody - and then proceed to build his case for primary custody.

Trying to negotiate directly with an abusive person is not just a waste of time, it's probably tearing down his strength and confidence.  He can't be a good parent to his son if he isn't strong himself.

[ForeverDad]

sign the agreement and you will see him... .  

Parenting is not conditional.  The courts are very careful not to block a parent's access to the children unless there is, as my court wrote, "substantive abuse or substantive neglect".  However, there is one exception for temporary blocking - allegations of abuse.  If his stbEx makes allegations of abuse or neglect, usually ex parte without the other's knowledge, a court may react quickly and put his parental contact on hold until they investigate and generally a hearing is scheduled within a couple weeks where both appear and the matter is discussed further.

That's if she makes allegations or seeks a restraining/protection order.  If she doesn't then it's more or less "anything goes" and "whoever has possession is in control" until the court sets an order in place.  The police may be unwilling to get involved in exchange attempts without a court order in place, mine said we had equal but unspecified rights and they would stand back until one of us had written orders or called 911 claiming an incident.

What I would be very careful about is that this time period of initial separation is especially risky for claims of abuse while jostling for parenting time in the initial court order.  He should be careful he doesn't do anything that gives her ammunition to use or misuse against him.

So, since nothing reasonable will occur until a court issues a parenting order, has the paperwork been filed?  Waiting for her to make a reasonable agreement will most likely only keep delaying progress.  Many have noted here that real negotiations don't happen until the court is about to step in and make a decision.  SO if he hasn't filed yet, then he needs to file.  If it is filed but not hearing date is set, then he needs to get the case moving along.  Odds are, the court will make a decision no worse than anything he can negotiate out of her, and probably better.

Side point... .   I suspected my son was to some extent autistic, when he was 2 and 3 it was hard for him to look at people, he was always looking away.  I have a memory when he was 22 months, now all these years later I can't say for sure the timing, now-ex was in a sobbing period of time and she left the kitchen, slammed the door the to a bedroom.  He said "mommy bad".  I understood it as mommy feels bad.  I remember thinking, his first sentence and it's that. :'(  He's relatively normal now, he spends half his life with me.  He does have issues where all his teaches over the years have stated he's bright but is always the last to finish and has a hard time concentrating on tasks.  As I look back, I really think those behaviors that made me wonder about autism were largely due to the erratic outbursts and repeated conflict.  Of course, no professional has ever said my ex's behaviors were responsible for anything.

[WorriedSibling]

Thank you everybody for your input.  He has recordings when she shows up at the house to do her ranting but not on the phone. (hopefully we'll rectify that meaning he doesn't answer the phone unless he's ready)  1st lawyer didn't think he was ready for the process as he is too shut down at the moment and talking about the issues is very difficult for him.  He's very depressed and not thinking clearly and is still acting out of fear.  We see a new lawyer shortly.  He is under the care of my Doctor as I knew the first thing he needed to do was take care of his health as he is/was exhausted due to working & caregiver 24/7 for the last 7 years.  He had no breaks ever, from the moment he would come home from work till the moment his head hit the pillow, every weekend, every holiday he would be with his son. (Autistic children need constant supervision). 

The ex on the other hand would arrange her work so that the only time she spent with the son was when she would get him out the door and on the bus in the AM.  She would go to work around 2 get off at 11pm and then either go gambling or stay up all night on the computer.  On the weekends even if she had one day off would be spent in bed.

I don't think he's ready to join the board yet but I have been sending him the links and articles about projecting and gaslighting and the links where other parents have been in the same boat.  He was aware the punching & slapping were abuse but I don't think he realized till now that the verbal was just as abusive as the physical.  My family and I are just trying to get him strong enough to get through the court stuff.  Oh and by the way from day one my entire family was evil, everyone he's ever associated with is evil and only she was right about everything.  I actually never had on verbal argument with her in all these years.  My family kept our mouths shut for the sake of the child, but when she would get angry at him she wouldn't speak to me for sometimes as long as 2 years.  This is so sick.

[BPDdaddy]

What is the best way to record a cell phone conversation, my soon to be ex-wife says the most vile things--very similar to the official poster's comments--and no one believes me.  Do I just need to go out and purchase a recorder, or what do I do? 

[marbleloser]

BPDdaddy,put her on speakerphone and record with a digital recorder.Recording is to protect yourself from false claims,but it can also provide a sense of how things are to a CE or judge,if he/she listens to them.

I've heard of SO's being on the stand lying and the opposing counsel playing back a recording that shows they're lying under oath.Judges don't like that.Sometimes it might be a game changer,sometimes not,but it's better to be prepared than not.

[marbleloser]

WS,you're a good sister.  Mine helped me alot during my ordeal.It made us that much closer.I've been where your brother is at,and it's not a nice place to be.

Have him  focus on the basics.Eating,getting plenty of sleep,exercise,etc.,,I imagine his mind is racing most of the time and his L is right.He needs to take care of himself first before starting this process.It's tough even under normal conditions,but I couldn't imagine trying in that state of mind.

[Forward2free]

So glad he has you and a good family on his team. I too was so broken down by my marriage to a N/BPD that I lost 50 pounds in 2 months. I became underweight and looked so gaunt, but when I shut the emotional door on him, I started to feel better straight away.

It took my mind and body a long time to heal, but I was ready to fight for my kids at anytime. The court process took 4 months before we faced the first session so I had time to prepare and get into the right headspace.

Years of abuse and neglect do not go away overnight, but everyday your head gets a little clearer and for me, the pain got a bit worse for a while. I started looking back on my life with new eyes and realised so much more of my day to day life was abusive. I was disappointed with myself for not seeing it.

It's hard. There is no shortcut and when there are kids involved, the process is much more difficult.

Be loving and supportive and find a lawyer that understands mental illness if possible.

Can he go no contact with ex? It would be far better to do all communication in writing and remove himself from possible verbal conflict. It's hard to say no to someone who has controlled you for so long.

Take care xx

[WorriedSibling]

Thank you all for your kind thoughts.  Yes this will take more than a few days or months for him to recover but his meeting today with children service (I called Children's Aid) went very well.  He will get through this (I hope) and next step is lawyer and that moving forward.  Once again thankyou for all the support and info on this website!

[WorriedSibling]

Well the voice recorder that I bought my brother was working well until his BPW showed up yesterday went on a rage, accused him of taking her keys then grabbed his jacket a found the recorder.  It is now broken in half.  The rest of time she raged and starting grabbing her unopened papers that were locked in a room where she had been stuffing them for 7 years. (Thank goodness we have video of breaking into this room that she thought of as her private domain)  The room itself is a good indication of the "Real" person that she is not the front that is projected. 

Then she proceeded to push and shove my brother around the house, all of this in front of their son.  Off to lawyer today, pay the retainer and hopefully also get a restraining order on her.  I've told my brother don't let her in the house she is doing everything in her power so that my brother looses it on her.  He is not a violent person but just how far she will go is another story entirely. 

Has anybody here received abuse counselling?  If so did it help you get through the yuckiest part of this stuff.  My brother really needs some help with the affects of this garbage, and I can be supportive but I also don't want to give him wrong advice and it's starting to take it's toll on my health as well.

[marbleloser]

Make sure to buy a new recorder and if anything is on that one that can be used,find a way to get the recordings off of it.The memory on a digital recorder is on a chip,so even with the recorder broken,if the chip is intact it should be salvagable.

She'll be on her best behaviour now that she knows she's being recorded.That should save your brother from some of the raging.

[catnap]

Make sure to buy a new recorder and if anything is on that one that can be used,find a way to get the recordings off of it.The memory on a digital recorder is on a chip,so even with the recorder broken,if the chip is intact it should be salvagable.

She'll be on her best behaviour now that she knows she's being recorded.That should save your brother from some of the raging.

Best Buy, or one of the big electronic stores might be able to help you with this.

Has anybody here received abuse counselling?  If so did it help you get through the yuckiest part of this stuff.

I would think a therapist who is knowledgeable about BPD, would be a good fit for him.  Perhaps your GP can recommend a therapist for him. 

[Matt]

If by "abuse counseling", you mean counseling for the two of them together, that may be worth a try, but it probably won't work.

If you mean that he finds a counselor for himself, to support him through this - not just the physical abuse, but the stress of the whole situation, which won't go a way soon - that's a very good idea.  It helped me a lot.

The main thing is not to be alone with her, without a non-family adult third party present at every moment.  Another incident like this is likely to put him in jail.  In domestic violence situations, men are presumed guilty til proven innocent, and it can be very hard to prove what you didn't do.  He's likely to go to jail even if he does nothing wrong.

[marbleloser]

"Then she proceeded to push and shove my brother around the house, all of this in front of their son"

He needs to let the police know this happened.Can his S got with him to the police station?This needs to be documented,even if can't file charges.The police need to know what's going on in case they get a DV call.He needs a recorder ON HIM at all times.Not in his jacket,in a drawer,in his vehicle.In his pocket!

It needs to be running even when asleep.He needs to stash it under the bed or close,right before going to sleep.A place she can't find it.

[ForeverDad]

If he is already separated and living separately, then he should have an expectation of privacy for his personal belongings, even his coat, especially considering the ongoing conflict.  Would rummaging through his pockets be considered 'breaking and entering'?  I'm not a lawyer or officer.

Breaking his recorder is vandalism of his personal property.  There may be a better legal phrase, not sure.  Can he get it reported or documented, otherwise it will fade out of legal concern and fade from being actionable?  For sure his lawyer should be informed.

And the conflict will only go up from here, unlikely it will go back to 'before', at least not for very long.  It is clear she has no respect for him (wow, I recall my ex repeatedly demanding that I 'respect' her... .  ).  The only 'authority' left is in the domestic or family court system.  It's not much, courts and other agencies are very reluctant to fix things, they're often more like passive referees and so the conflict, though with some limits, continues.

All sorts of devices can be recorders.  I recall prior mention of pencams, video/audio recorders that are also working pens.  Amazing what technology can create these days.

And I still wonder if son's autistic issues are due, partly or entirely, to mother's long term behaviors, it could be son's way to cope.  In any case, her constant erratic acting-out and verbal/physical attacks can't be helping him.

Disclaimer:  I've been separated for 7.5 years, divorced for 5 years, full custody but equal parenting time for 2 years.  I still find it hard to hang up on ex when she's raging.  I do record most of them, it's my insurance to document I'm not the misbehaving one, but few listen or do anything about it.  Neither I nor my 11 year old son find it easy to weather her verbal outbursts.

[Matt]

Breaking his recorder is vandalism of his personal property.  There may be a better legal phrase, not sure.  Can he get it reported or documented, otherwise it will fade out of legal concern and fade from being actionable?  For sure his lawyer should be informed.

So here's one more thing I know from experience - at least how it works in my state.  Pretty sad... .  

In my state, it's called, ":)estruction of private property".  I was charged with it, as was my wife.  She had attacked me with my guitar - didn't land a blow because I floated like a butterfly - and ripped up all my sheet music - probably about $40 of damage.  (My kids scotch-taped it back together, which made me cry.)

I was charged with the same thing, because I dropped a small TV while she was raging - I was trying to move it off a wobbly table onto the floor so it wouldn't get knocked over - and it was still plugged in so the power cable was damaged.

We were also both charged with "creating a public disturbance" - as many counts as there were "victims" - our kids plus me meant 3 counts for her, and likewise for me.  Basically the same as "disturbing the peace".

These are criminal charges, though misdemeanors.  That means the police and/or prosecutors bring the charges.  There may be civil charges that you could bring, along the same lines;  for example, I think you could file a civil charge against her for breaking your recording device.  That would be decided on "a preponderance of the evidence" not "proof beyond reasonable doubt" - you would need evidence but not rock-solid proof.

(I'm not a lawyer, and nobody here can give legal advice.  Just telling you how it works where I live.)

[sfbayjed]

I would be careful about recording phone conversations, there could be local laws against it and it could be considered a violation of federal wire tapping laws.  I would suggest that he not talk to her on the phone at all.  She has a need to spew this venom at him. She gets some kind of pay off from hurting him like that. My ex is the same way. I do not understand it, never will. If she is not able to get to him over the phone she will almost certainly find another way, hopefully email or text, which he can save.   Plus, he shouldn't be talking to her now on the phone anyway, it is not good for his mental health right now. She is toxic. he needs your support now, he will get better, but it is going to be a very long road getting there. 

[ForeverDad]

I would be careful about recording phone conversations, there could be local laws against it and it could be considered a violation of federal wire tapping laws.

True, some states have two party laws.  That must be considered.  However, I've been here on these boards for over 7 years and maybe only a handful of members have reported court intervention or some level of consequences.  I'm not saying it doesn't happen, just that judicial response or intervention is apparently rare.  My take from it is that it's not nearly as big a potential issue as are risks of false allegations and the erratic/extreme behaviors.  If it becomes an issue, then yes, pay closer attention to the recording laws.

Of course, we shouldn't walking into the cage with the circus tiger and start taunting, so to speak.  Waving a recorder around or sticking a camcorder in someone's face will often make things worse.  We would do it for documentation and protection, not to make an impact.  (Generally, by the time it gets this bad to need documentation, our disordered ones aren't listening positively to us anyway.)

Frankly, there are so many ways people can record these days, with cell phones, MP3 player/recorders, camcorders, virtually every digital camera, voice recorders, and the list goes on.  It would be impractical to block all possibilities, reminds me of Daffy Duck trying to stamp out a forest fire.  What courts certainly could be more likely to respond to are flagrant disregard or abuse of laws.

Here are a few quotes sometimes made here... .  

• The mis-behaving person seldom faces consequences while the well-behaving person seldom gets credit.



• It's easier to ask for forgiveness than to ask for permission.

[Matt]

You can find out online what the rules are for your state.  Where I live, it's OK to record, if one party (you) knows about it.

Or you can ask a local attorney what the rules are.

But in any case, direct contact - phone or face-to-face - is pretty risky right now.

[slimmiller]

WorriedSibling, 

I dont know your brother but feel for him. :'(

It is wonderful that you are by his side.! Thank goodness he has support.

Have you read "Splitting" yet? You really should. (Both of you) It helped me immensely during my seperation process

[WorriedSibling]

Thank you to all for your input and advise.  Lawyer retained (big bucks paid by my family because the bro is broke).  Went to court to put restrainer order on and save 5,000.xx as per his lawyer and they pretty much laughed at him.  I was infuriated, if a woman had walked through that door Urgent motions would have been filed.  Obviously courts and the powers that be do not take husband abuse seriously.  My brother is just a very timid, shy sweet guy, who's been taken for a ride and as his lawyer states "you were played" sick, oh so sick!  Ten years of abuse does a number on anyone's head, I just want his self esteem redeemed and if it takes a ton of money paid by the rest of our family helping out so be it.

In the mean time, duty counsel told him change the locks, don't let her in your house then no abuse. (Haha) right, I agree but I also stated then when she goes ballistic on the doorstep call 911, let them deal with her not you!  Hopefully he's strong enough to do what he needs to do. And nothing is stopping him from going to the police a laying assault charges (needs to do it just so it's on file)  Once again all here on this board thank you for listening to my rants, it really does help!

[Forward2free]

It's not only men who don't get them easily, but stick with it, another judge on another day can make all the difference. The more complaints he lodges with police, the more a case will be built and getting the OOP will be easier in the long run.

I found many watches with recording devices and my N/BPDxh never looked at my wrist for a recording device, even though it was right in front of him. They are easy to start recording so you can use them when required without raising alarm either. Plus, they are reasonably cheap these days too.

A police officer told me that if I needed to call 911, I was to tell them that N/BPDxh was armed. She said that was the indication that the police needed to act immediately. In this day and time where "domestic" violence can be played down as an argument, its important you know how to get the most urgent attention possible.

It might be time for him to change his phone number and have his lawyer write an email to her/her lawyer and request all correspondence must be made in writing only. Anything to save his peace of mind is so important.

[Matt]

Ten years of abuse does a number on anyone's head, I just want his self esteem redeemed and if it takes a ton of money paid by the rest of our family helping out so be it.

The court aspect - as important as it is - probably won't help his self-esteem.

Being away for her for quite a while will help.  Counseling is important too - it helped me a lot.

[marbleloser]

Buy him an infrared game camera to set up outside the home.The more,the better.She shows up and causes trouble or anything happens while he's away,hopefully she smiles.

[Forward2free]

Great idea - I bought 8 infrared camera's with DVD HD recorder and installed it myself (with my sister) for less than A$800. It is worth it for the security aspect alone, and should you need the records for anything, nothing beats pictures!