NEED to fight?

[Mandaryn]

Just reading over some of the resource posts when this came to mind. 

I've begin questioning if my uBPD mom has a 'need' to fight. 

She talked about not getting along with my grandmother growing up. Most of the stories she told about her and her seven siblings involved either her being mad at them or fighting with them (mad at the oldest because he was in charge while the parents were gone and had to discipline her for acting out; hit one with a 2x4 for ruining her mud pies and then laughed at him for getting in trouble for chasing her; got mad at another for something or other and dumped all of the sister's clothes on the floor; physically fighting with youngest siblings).  She cried abuse for years from my birth dad (she left him about the time I turned three and alienated me from him), but lately I've come to realize (from my memories and some other reports) that she was attacking him with a broom and in the struggle managed to get hit with the broom herself (I remember the struggle).  I recently got in touch with birth dad, who refused to say anything negative toward her, but I asked if he ever had trouble trying to reason with her--he said there was no fighting fair with her.  I remember an argument between her and my adopted dad--he could barely get a word in edgewise and she was verbally coming at him, both barrels blazing, so to speak.  She and my kid sister have bickered constantly for years.  And after my now husband and I had a fight over the phone years ago she asked me, grinning, why she and I never fought like that (I cowered before her glare growing up).  Who wants to fight with their kids?  Is this something seen in others who are BPD?

[cleotokos]

Hi Mandaryn, my uBPD mom has a need to fight as well. These days my experience with this is mostly her baiting me into some sort of conflict with her. But growing up, it was horrible. She would fight with anyone, anytime, anywhere. She thrived on the drama. She claimed anger was her "release". (Never mind her poor victims!) Nearly every day I was embarrassed by her behaviour. She didn't care what people thought of her. If the checkout girl at the supermarket did something to make her mad, she would scream at her. Usually it went into something totally unrelated, like maybe she thought someone was giving her a dirty look (probably for treating her kids like crap in public - if anyone even truly WAS giving her a dirty look) and it became an issue of society judging her for being a single mother on welfare. She was constantly at war with "enemies" in her social circles. Somebody was always doing something to her, the helpless victim, and she had to put them in their place. It sounds like your mom's urge to fight was contained within the family. Is that so? Did she pick fights with people in public?

[XL]

This is interesting. Mine also had a large family with a lot of physical childhood brawling, and then adult drama circles. It was like a sports bracket of sibling arguing each month.

Mine told me "fighting is how healthy people get their frustration out in relationships". Um... .  no.

Mine's favorite thing was picking fights with my father. Just these exhausting, never ending screaming and crying arguments that would go on for 2-5 hours at a time. Daily. Like every day for 15 years. I spent a lot of time playing in the yard, or being locked out of the family car at public events while they fought. I started working 3 night jobs in highschool just to get out of the house. I got to the point in highschool where I became the target and would try to out maneuver her. I got really sucked into that high conflict relationship with her around age 14 maybe, and she loved it. Except I was pretty mean (mainly telling her she was insane and needed therapy over and over again). Then she'd get to play the victim card for days.

She'd fight with my teachers. The parent teacher association. Bosses. Coworkers. Neighbors. Landlords. She got us kicked out of an apartment complex once.

In the meantime, I didn't get any modeling on how to survive in the adult world. I sometimes wish there was a hidden camera on the wall during those years so other people can see exactly what I'm talking about. She has yet to throw one of these fits in front of my boyfriend or relative who might confront her. The skill that she hides this side of herself from the general world can be upsetting, and makes me look like the mean one for bringing it up.

I also recently noticed I don't respond to yelling anymore. I almost drove through a red turn arrow because my partner started yelling and I just blanked out. There's like a gate in my brain that filters people out once yelling reaches a certain level of volume and panic.

[XL]

Does yours also refuse to let the fights end? With mine you CANNOT walk away from the fight. In school, I'd leave and shut myself in my room like "fight is over, this is madness, it's a school night, I'm doing homework now" and she'd slam herself against the door to keep the fight going. I used to occasionally barricade my door with furniture. We're talking STUPID fights, like a 4 hour emotional meltdown over curfew or makeup. (Hilarious, since in the total vacuum of household authority I didn't actually HAVE a curfew).

In recent years when she's tried this on the phone, I hang up. Then I get an immediate call back of "You are not allowed to hang up on me. You need to listen to what I have to say". No. No, I don't.

[cleotokos]

She'd fight with my teachers. The parent teacher association. Bosses. Coworkers. Neighbors. Landlords. She got us kicked out of an apartment complex once.

Story of my life, XL! Have you read "Understanding the Borderline Mother"? I don't recall any mention of this kind of behaviour.

I told my mom I thought she may have BPD (I know it's wrong, but I was at my wit's end and really hoped she might at least talk with someone about it... .  HA!) and she said she must not have it because she looked up the symptoms and putting on a different face for the world isn't one that she has. Her claim is she was just "depressed" when I was a child. She has improved a lot and I don't think she fights with people like she used to, but really there's still something very wrong with her.

[XL]

Story of my life, XL! Have you read "Understanding the Borderline Mother"? I don't recall any mention of this kind of behaviour.

Her claim is she was just "depressed" when I was a child. She has improved a lot and I don't think she fights with people like she used to, but really there's still something very wrong with her.

Ditto. They don't put the pieces together that they're depressed because THEY MAKE THEMSELVES DEPRESSED. Their own behavior makes for an unfulfilling life void of meaningful friendships or positive enjoyment of events.

Oh my god, mine did the whole "suffering from depression bit" for a new doctor once got antidepressants without follow up therapy, and it was the worst thing ever. She just became intensely manic for a very long time. It was obvious that clinical chemical depression was not the problem. I almost said something then.

[cleotokos]

Does yours also refuse to let the fights end? With mine you CANNOT walk away from the fight. In school, I'd leave and shut myself in my room like "fight is over, this is madness, it's a school night, I'm doing homework now" and she'd slam herself against the door to keep the fight going. I used to occasionally barricade my door with furniture. We're talking STUPID fights, like a 4 hour emotional meltdown over curfew or makeup. (Hilarious, since in the total vacuum of household authority I didn't actually HAVE a curfew).

In recent years when she's tried this on the phone, I hang up. Then I get an immediate call back of "You are not allowed to hang up on me. You need to listen to what I have to say". No. No, I don't.

Not sure if you were asking me or Mandaryn, but I'll throw in my two cents. 

She doesn't keep going in the way you mentioned, but she has things she's angry about for long periods of time. Like her and my dad's divorce can still get her into a state where she starts yelling when trying to convince me she was some big victim in the whole thing. Um, that was over 30 years ago. If somebody does her wrong (in her delusional mind), she can never forget it and will hold onto the anger until the end of time. Hateful rage is her comfort zone.

I left (ran? fled? escaped?) her home when I was 14. She wasn't able to get to me in the same way as I went to live with my dad in a different city. She realizes now that I'm no longer a powerless child, so she treats me with a lot more respect than she used to. I put my foot down regarding the screaming but she still tries to start arguments. You don't have to listen to that kind of crap, and you should hang up the phone every time it starts. Sad to say but it's like training a toddler - you have to be consistent, and do it immediately.

[Mandaryn]

Thanks for the feedback.  Mom appears to most as a sweet person, always smiling.  However, she has no friends that I can speak of.  She does talk with her three older sisters on the phone, but she has put them down for years for one thing or the other.  Most of the rage in my household growing up was a silent one--she and my adopted dad would get mad over something, but would never talk.  He would mope and skulk for days, she would stomp, slam, mumble, glare, and when she was really at her breaking point would take off in the car down the road for a brief period of time.  She had this look that she could give that scared me so bad, and had this way of asking questions that were more accusations that I avoided trouble at all costs, and did not trust to talk to her about things.  Sadly, I seemed to fall under a spell of sorts when I became a mother myself, and suddenly we got along well, and I would tell her about all sorts of things, only to later have it repeated or thrown in my face.  The final straw, what set off my 'breakthrough crisis', was a phone call five months ago. 

Cleotokos, my mom has also held onto anger for years over her divorce, which was thirty years ago.  When I was about 12 she 'accepted the Lord', which meant she said she had 'forgiven' my birthdad and quit calling him 's---head'.  About two years ago I mentioned that I had came across his wife on facebook, who was an old acquaintance of my husband's, and that I had thought about getting in contact.  If nothing else, I did need to know family health history for mine and my children's sake.  She said that she thought it was a good idea, that she had thought about bringing it up.  She seemed okay with things, so I began asking questions about my extended family and such.  All I had heard over the years was trash talk about my dad, and she insinuated that his family wasn't much either, so this side of her was a welcome reprieve.  She begged me not to tell my adopted dad, though, but I did because I was not comfortable feeling like I was sneaking behind his back.  He was a little stunned but seemed okay with it. 

Fast forward, her smear campaign from years ago began to resume, so when I finally decided to meet him and his wife, I mentioned nothing to my mom, planning to tell her the day after when I called.  What I learned later is that she saw something on facebook that made her suspicious (a vague comment that my stepmom put; my mom is a stalker and has a paranoid mind).  Stepmom also posted pics on her profile but I did not approve the tags so that I could talk to mom first.  Unbeknownst to me my kid sis had stalked too and had shown her the pics, so she knew.

Here's where it got weird.  I called her after work, as normal (at this point we talked nearly every week day)  and talked pleasantly for over 20 minutes before I brought up seeing him.  She reacted so explosively that I  was floored. Especially when I found out she already knew.  She would hang up on me, I would call back.  For two days we went back and forth.  I had not had a cross word with my mom in over a decade, which I now realized I was so enmeshed with her and had became a golden child (thankfully we live 2 hours apart, so that gave a cushion).  I was dumbfounded why she was acting the way she was--logically, to me, if she had already known she would have said something.  Our final conversation became a full on war on me--my beliefs, things I post on Facebook, my parenting, my marriage and how I was bringing such trouble and heartache to the family.  I can only describe the experience as having 'seen the light'.  It was like blinders were ripped off and I was finally seeing my mother for who she was.  I started doing research on family rifts and that is how I started finding information about narcissistic and borderline mothers. Suddenly I was flooded with memories from childhood of things I had long since pushed down.  I have been going over details of my mind and it's like everything makes sense now.  My husband had said for years that something wasn't right, and I defended her for all it was worth, making him feel like the crazy one.  She had this underlying push pull thing with him that drove him mad.  She later told me via text that she only thought ill of him because of things I had said, and that she was going to apologize for hurting his feelings.  She then texted me again to let me know she was going to text him--I could tell she was baiting me.  She texted him and said IF she had ever hurt him, it was because of what I said--it was all my fault.  That ticked dh off to no end, and he said, sorry, but I can't go it with her anymore.  He didn't respond, and I agreed that it was over the top. 

I've seen her twice in the last five months--Christmas and at my brother's house a couple months later.  I went primarily for the boys to see their aunts and uncle and grandparents, but stayed on my guard.  Things were strained, but okay.  However, I realized she didn't have a chance to get me alone.  Otherwise we've communicated by text.  She has sent highly emotional, manipulative texts, ones that I know she is baiting me into conflict, so I do not respond to those.  Her last text was sent saying that we need to talk, to give her a call (she almost never calls me).  I noticed it was a couple of hours after having reactivated her facebook account, and I have her set to restricted (can only see my public posts, which are virtually nonexistent).  I texted back asking what was on her mind--three weeks later and I haven't heard from her.  Back to the silent rage, which is actually quite freeing at this point.

[cleotokos]

Hi Mandaryn, that must have been a great loss to come to this realization after feeling you had a good relationship with your mom over the last 10 years. How did you feel during this time? Did you feel you and your mom were close? At times I've felt close to my mom, but I always know in the back of my mind that she will stab me in the heart when it comes down to it. So there's not a lot of emotional trust, which has always made it hard for me to truly love and respect her.

A lot of your story rings true for me as well, particularly the part where your mom has issues with your husband and says it's only because of things you've told her - that could have come right out of my mom's mouth! My boyfriend has been on my mom's "~ list" (she diligently maintains one in her mind of "bad" people - my dad and stepmom are at the top!) since he crashed my car several years ago. I was annoyed at him for driving carelessly but really it was an ACCIDENT. Well, my mom loves to bring it up... .  "if he hadn't have crashed your car, you would be able to do x", "if he hadn't have crashed your car, you wouldn't have to spend money on a new one", blah blah blah. I chose not to replace my car for a while because I really didn't need it at the time, but she wants to make me a victim in the situation. Constantly reminding me of this "bad thing" he did to me. And it was the same for us as kids, better not do a "bad thing" or you'll be reminded endlessly and made to feel like a piece of crap for it. And the same about ex boyfriends, she still likes to remind me that the last one "wasted 7 years of your life". I'm over the relationship and breakup but she isn't. I want to move on with my life and hardly think of him, but she loves to bring him into completely unrelated conversations. I know it's weird because my grandmother (on my dad's side) will intervene and stick up for me. She can see me get tense and read the emotion in my voice; I don't know why my mom can't. Anyway during this recent email battle we were having, I pointed out she always has something negative to say about my boyfriend and that ever since the car accident she acts like she doesn't think much of him and that she should get over it already. She claimed she actually really liked him (if that's liking somebody... .  HA! Weird thing is that IS how she talks about people she doesn't actually dislike) and that she only ever said anything bad about him because I told her something. My fault.

My mom does have friends, and she has some that she's had for many years. Although she's lost some friends and had some dramatic falling-outs. Even recently she was telling me about a disagreement she had with a friend, and she called the poor woman and left her some weird angry voicemail that didn't sound appropriate to me. When someone gets on her ~ list, there's just no redemption for them. I think she gets mad when people don't respond to her dramatic antics - so when she has a falling out, she wants to have a big dramatic blowup with the person. I think this other woman wasn't engaging and that's why she gets the nasty voicemail. I don't even bother telling her how ridiculous she acts most of the time. She's greatly improved from the way she was when I was a child, so I guess I feel like she's close to normal most of the time?

A lot of my mom's anger stems from the fact that she wants to be viewed as the victim in her divorce. She wants, and has always wanted, me to side with her and think my dad was mean and bad. My dad was the only light in the darkness of my childhood. He probably saved me from becoming borderline. He would tell me it wasn't me and would tell me that I was smart and good and kind. Although he was the fisherman and weak and didn't take us out of that chaotic home, at least he did this for me. Although I only saw him every two weeks, he was like a rock of sanity that I could cling to during a hurricane. I know what I saw - bat~ crazy, selfish, vindictive, angry mom vs. kind, gentle and loving dad. I'm not stupid. It makes me want to throw up when she tries to play the victim in her divorce.

[Mandaryn]

It was a bit heart-wrenching at first, but things had been slowly unwinding for some time.  A few months prior she was splitting my sis and I in one conversation--'oh you were so good in this way blah blah blah while she's so bad blah blah blah" and I pointed out to her that she didn't always think that I was so great--that I was slow and lazy and didn't do a whole lot of work.  I said that I thought we had both idealized each other somewhat over the years.  I had come to this realization after sis was complaining about a fight they had and how our brother and I got along so well with mom--I pointed out that mom and I had our share of troubles when I lived with her and the only reason we got along now was because of the distance.  I didn't feel emotionally close to mom until after I was an adult--as a kid, I always had this distrust that I couldn't explain.  I opened up to her only as an adult about how her brother molested me as a child.  I was so grateful that she didn't get mad at me that it has been years later that I finally reflected on her reaction--she quietly, nonchalantly said she had suspected it.  When I was little my grandmother, whom we were living with at the time, asked me, but it was in such an accusatory way that I thought I was in trouble.  When I finally said that yes, he had touched me, she mumbled something and walked out the door.  Never consoled me or anything (she wasn't the type anyhow).  Now I'm angry that one--my grandmother hadn't said anything and two--if she suspected, why didn't she ask me?  If I had any clue anyone had touched my boys I would be ready to bring he! on their heads!

You described exactly how my mom operated with my dh.  When questioned about it--oh, we like him.  Any negative reactions were purely because of things I said--it was usually something said out of anger after a fight, which I later pointed out that I had spoken out of anger and not out of rational thought.  But she still held the negative things against him and hinted at things--well, if he this, then you could that... .  and so forth.

I (sadly) did side with my mother for years over her divorce.  They separated when I was  about to turn 3.  Through a turn of events he signed over parental rights and I was adopted by my stepdad.  Thirty years after the separation and I'm finally getting to know him.  I've started having memories to resurface and I realize that my mom would get hysterical and managed to turn it on people--especially him.  They were both very young (married at 18; I came along a year and a half later).  She always said, he beat me, but only would say he broke her cheekbone, then she moved out.  I started reflecting on thoughts from years ago that I thought were dreams and decided to ask her about one.  I could see her in our apartment building yelling and throwing clothes down the stairs.  I asked her about it and she laughed and said yes,  she did that and threw them out the back window of the building toward the rear parking as well.  She once bragged (yes, bragged) that she smacked him over the head with a telephone receiver --one from the old rotary phones, which aren't lightweight.  What I didn't mention is that I could also see the two of them struggling over something.  She once said that I had hit him with a broom to beat him off of her, which I found a little odd for some reason.  Then finally one day, on the verge of sleep, it came flooding back.  She was in a flat out rage, and he was walking toward the door, she said something to me and we headed toward the kitchen--then they were fighting over it.  The broom.  My dad never said a bad word against her since we have reconnected, and said he didn't want to come between us, but opened up when I asked him too.  I asked him about the incident--he said that she was mad and wanted him to fight her, and he wouldn't.  He said that if a grown man got in his face, yes, he would fight him off, but how do you fight a woman?  He said that she kept calling him a coward and came after him with the broom, which managed to hit her cheek when he tried to keep it from hitting him.  I have this feeling that she asked me to get the broom, but he said he wasn't sure of that.  I have thought on it more and now remember her yelling at him from the window, and remember that I had a sick feeling wanting him to come back and wondering when he was coming back.  She and I moved out that day, had limited contact with him for the next couple of years and then she managed to turn me against him.  Ever read a description of Parental Alienation and Parental Alienation Syndrome?  Yep, case example right here.  My adopted dad was okay, but he was weak with her too, and I never fully connected with him.  I have love for him, but it wasn't the same.  When I finally met my dad again face to face I can't explain the joy I felt.  I missed out on his entire family--got more stories about that. 

Basically I have moments that I'm torn, and feel bad for her, but then I realize she never felt bad for me.  It's always been about her feelings.  None of them (her, stepdad, brother or sister) have contacted me.  Which is nothing new--I was always the one to have to initiate contact.  I was the oddball piece to their perfect little family.

[cleotokos]

Mandaryn, we certainly do seem to have a lot in common. It is awful that you had to miss out on your relationship with your dad growing up. Lucky for me my mom did realize that I needed my dad in my life, as much as she hated his guts. Although she did try to distance and separate us, which I hate her for doing. After they separated, she moved us to a small town about 3 hours away from my dad. We were very poor and didn't have a car, and there was a ferry ride involved so I only got to see my dad every two weeks, and sometimes less. From the time I was born until 4 years old my dad had stayed home to take care of me while my mom worked, and he and I were very close. My dad is the complete opposite of my mom - gentle, kind, patient. My mom's story is that my dad was so "mean" to her every time he came to pick me up for visits (when we lived in the same city) that she had no choice but to flee by moving away. It makes no sense at all because he still came to pick me up after that. And we all lived in a very big city so it's not like there was any chance of her running into him if she was out. She had no reason to move to this small town - all her friends and her life were in the city, and her job. She never worked again after moving (there were no jobs in the town, plus she had an attitude problem). I tried to talk to her about this, why she decided to move away, why she didn't just have a friend or family member present when my dad came to pick me up if he was so bad to her. I know he said to her that he was going to get custody of me. I think she moved me away in large part to hurt him. I want her to admit to that but she won't. But it's plain as day to me. I also want her to admit she was being selfish, and she wanted to move and she didn't think about the effect on me and my brother, but she won't. I wish I had a mom who put their kids first. Around this time I told her to get therapy, I was really mad about the way she'd always tried to portray herself as a victim to me and how she'd tried to control my relationship with my dad. I said to her it was an attempt at parental alienation, what she did. She claims she told her therapist the whole story and her therapist said the idea that it was parental alienation was "absurd". Come on now, the "move-away" is one of the oldest parental alienation tricks in the book. She'd have me believe that everybody around her was so mean that she had license to curl up into a ball and give up on life, rather than be an adult and do the right thing. And she'd act like being my mom was some kind of favour she was doing me. Thankfully she was never physically violent with anyone, but verbal abuse can hurt just as much.

My mom's boyfriend was terrible. He seems a bit narcissistic to me, and he hated children and particularly hated my younger brother. My brother was just a baby when we moved and didn't have the solid foundation with our dad that I did. And you can tell. I realized about 10 years ago, I don't think my brother KNEW growing up that our mom was crazy. I question my mom about why she kept this horrible, abusive person around her kids. I mean what kind of man hates a 3 year old boy? Excuses, excuses. And she asked him why he was so horrible to my brother and he said he could "sense the crazy" (my brother has mental illness which made its appearance when he was 14) even when my brother was very little. What the heck? So that's how you treat someone with mental illness? Sick sick sick. My mom is still with this person, which in my mind is approval of all he did to my brother. I want her to admit she was too weak to be alone so she made the selfish decision that an abusive man is better than no man. Of course she won't.

I'm glad you can have a relationship with your dad these days. What does he say about not being able to see you all your life? He didn't want to come between you and your mom, it almost sounds like something my dad would say. My dad had very little to say about my mom that was negative, he would tell me I wasn't the crazy one but also encourage me to have compassion for my mom and say "she does the best she knows how". I know that sick feeling of missing your dad, I felt like that most of the time growing up. She would always make me call him collect and if he couldn't afford the phone call I couldn't talk to him. My dad lacks confidence and I asked him why he never took us out of there, he said he didn't think a court would take children from their mother. And in those days, he was probably right - he had no proof she had mental illness, or anything to go on really. I don't know if he could have won or not. I wish he'd tried, but I also understand that it's not because he didn't want to or didn't love me.

[Mandaryn]

From what I've read moving is a big step toward alienation--a kind of deterrent.  Alas, that was not my case.  I grew up within twenty minutes of my dad and once ran into him and his brother at a video store.  He was so scared of my mother he wouldn't come near me.  She had tarnished his image with the abuse claim (I was told that when they went before the judge at the hearing he asked my mom if dad had laid a hand on her and she said no. when asked why she was there she said it was because her mother told her to file the claim--my gm hated my dad from the get go and I believe penned the nickname my mom later called him).  Even though the judge found him innocent, living in a small town he now had a rep.  Then when he tried to have anything to do with me, she would go into hysterics--I remember two visits distinctly, one before she remarried and one after whenever there was another male around (first my uncle, then my stepdad) that she would try to get them to shoot him.  Dad told me he saw how shook up I was and couldn't bear to put me threw that, so after all of her bullying he signed over his rights and she pushed him over the edge.  He has not blamed me for anything (I spoke to him a couple of times on the phone as a teen and was as cold as she was).