Time to play the marijuana card?

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

I don't think so, but my lawyer seems to think it's the right move.  My husband has been bullying me via emails since I left three months ago. We work together (but far apart in the building), but this week his accosted me and yelled at me in front of co-workers (first time we've communicated except for email since I left).  His attorney drew up a PSA, and I met with my attorney today to review it (we have no issues of custody or spousal support).

This week I forwarded some emails to my attorney and also let him in on being accosted and yelled at while at work.  He asked for all the emails from husband since I left (it was about a half inch stack for 3 months of emails).  99% of the emails from him are vitriolic, hate-filled, and vindictive.  He includes threats. My attorney was horrified and believes that his attorney has no clue how off-kilter/unwell he really is.  There is a great deal of name calling in the emails, and many of them are semi-coherent.  He said he thought his attorney should be aware of what his client is really like because he's just seeing the charming side that is placing all the blame on me.

So, he suggested bringing up husband's drug use to his attorney-- husband is a heavy, daily marijuana smoker, to the tune of $500 or so a month.  I balked at bringing this up, as I suspect (know) it will send husband over the edge.  I want to stand up for myself, yet I also do not want to fuel his rage.  I have pages and pages of emails where he is saying, "I can't tell you how much I f'ing despise you," calls me names, etc. etc. 

The attorney said it's up to me whether or not he mentions the drug use though he feels he may back down and stop bullying if he knows I'm not going to roll over. 

What do you think?  Does anyone have experience with this?  I'm tired of feeling spooked and looking over my shoulder, but the last thing I want is to incite him more.  In Splitting by Randi Kreger and Bill Eddy, they emphasize being assertive but not aggressive and not passive. 

Any advice would be welcome.

[atcrossroads]

I don't think so, but my lawyer seems to think it's the right move.  My husband has been bullying me via emails since I left three months ago. We work together (but far apart in the building), but this week his accosted me and yelled at me in front of co-workers (first time we've communicated except for email since I left).  His attorney drew up a PSA, and I met with my attorney today to review it (we have no issues of custody or spousal support).

This week I forwarded some emails to my attorney and also let him in on being accosted and yelled at while at work.  He asked for all the emails from husband since I left (it was about a half inch stack for 3 months of emails).  99% of the emails from him are vitriolic, hate-filled, and vindictive.  He includes threats. My attorney was horrified and believes that his attorney has no clue how off-kilter/unwell he really is.  There is a great deal of name calling in the emails, and many of them are semi-coherent.  He said he thought his attorney should be aware of what his client is really like because he's just seeing the charming side that is placing all the blame on me.

So, he suggested bringing up husband's drug use to his attorney-- husband is a heavy, daily marijuana smoker, to the tune of $500 or so a month.  I balked at bringing this up, as I suspect (know) it will send husband over the edge.  I want to stand up for myself, yet I also do not want to fuel his rage.  I have pages and pages of emails where he is saying, "I can't tell you how much I f'ing despise you," calls me names, etc. etc. 

The attorney said it's up to me whether or not he mentions the drug use though he feels he may back down and stop bullying if he knows I'm not going to roll over. 

What do you think?  Does anyone have experience with this?  I'm tired of feeling spooked and looking over my shoulder, but the last thing I want is to incite him more.  In Splitting by Randi Kreger and Bill Eddy, they emphasize being assertive but not aggressive and not passive. 

Any advice would be welcome.

[Matt]

My reaction is to use what's relevant - e-mails that are bullying, threatening, etc. - and also to inform his attorney about his behavior in front of co-workers.  But not to raise irrelevant issues, and I think his marijuana use is probably irrelevant since there are no kids involved.

In theory, you could file a motion asking that both parties be drug-tested, but what's the point?  It really has nothing to do with anything - it's none of your business whether he uses marijuana, unless it impacts you.  (I'm not saying it's OK or legal, only that it doesn't directly affect you.)

Stand firm on no contact - no more e-mails of any kind, no other electronic communication like Facebook, no phone calls, and no contact of any sort - no exceptions - anything that is important can be done through the attorneys.  If he won't agree to that, and follow through, then get a restraining order or order of protection.  Just have your attorney show his attorney the information and say, "You need to get your client to stop all contact immediately.  Next time he communicates with my client, we'll get a restraining order within 24 hours."  No negotiation, just information, so the other attorney can advise his client accordingly.

[ForeverDad]

There are no children, so there are no custody issues involved.  That is one huge complication you don't have to consider.

As a practical issue in court, I don't think domestic court is concerned much by (mild) drug use, though it may turn out to be a factor at some point.

I recall the first time I called 911 which triggered our separation.  Ex grabbed the handset, hung it up, threw it in my direction, it hit the wall and broke apart and later was never seen again.  They called back and the major question asked was whether either one of us had been drinking alcohol or using drugs.  I believe that was their way to ascertain the urgency and what scenario the officers could expect upon arrival.

If you do call 911, you need to inform them of his drug habit.  If it's not an emergency situation such as impending DV, it may not get much attention.  However, your lawyer is seeking a way to get him to back off and that might help.  Call it 'leverage' even though no one can be sure how it would affect the case.  (At least his lawyer would learn something about his client that almost surely sbtEx hasn't disclosed to his own lawyer.)

Your lawyer has had experience in this, it may or may not help, but also it may not hurt.  In most cases, shining light on the issues works better than hiding them even if they may not be considered 'actionable'.

[momtara]

I think your instincts are probably good - we all know our BPD hubbies better than others, and it is important to be assertive but not cause unnecessary problems.  I think it is good that your attorney sends or tells the other attorney about the crazy emails, and it doesn't seem imperative to mention the pot use yet if you know it will cause problems.  We have to go with our guts. 

[atcrossroads]

Are any of you on by chance with a few minutes to read the letter from my attorney.  It doesn't mention the drugs but is pretty strong and quotes from some of his nasty emails and mentions the work incident.  I would love some feeback!

*I do agree the drug use was too over the top for now.  It would be a volcanic trigger for him.

[catnap]

You can certainly post the letter with identifying information removed, as well as the spelling for some of the more colorful language.

[ForeverDad]

It does have to stop or at least be reduced.  That he has raged at you in front of co-workers shows it IS getting worse.  He WILL keep pushing the boundaries if he sees no hint of consequences.  Sadly, keeping quiet to avoid things getting worse will not stop things from getting worse.

What usually helps is letting others know about at least some of his actions.  Lawyer-to-lawyer sounds very appropriate to me, his lawyer needs to know what his client is really like and he is far more likely to listen to his lawyer rather than you.  Hmm... .  I'm wondering whether your co-workers will tell your boss, not a bad thing IMO.

At the very least, it seems appropriate to require that he refrain from dissing you in writing and to stop phoning/texting/emailing you if he can't stop venting or worse.  Lawyer can give notice to the other lawyer that if it continues you will block him and require all contact to henceforth be through the lawyers.  More expensive but may eventually be needed.

[Matt]

It does have to stop or at least be reduced.  That he has raged at you in front of co-workers shows it IS getting worse.  He WILL keep pushing the boundaries if he sees no hint of consequences.  Sadly, keeping quiet to avoid things getting worse will not stop things from getting worse.

What usually helps is letting others know about at least some of his actions.  Lawyer-to-lawyer sounds very appropriate to me, his lawyer needs to know what his client is really like and he is far more likely to listen to his lawyer rather than you.  Hmm... .  I'm wondering whether your co-workers will tell your boss, not a bad thing IMO.

At the very least, it seems appropriate to require that he refrain from dissing you in writing and to stop phoning/texting/emailing you if he can't stop venting or worse.  Lawyer can give notice to the other lawyer that if it continues you will block him and require all contact to henceforth be through the lawyers.  More expensive but may eventually be needed.

I guess I wonder whether any halfway measure will work;  if you say, "No inappropriate communication" then can he be trusted to understand what "inappropriate" means?

My guess is, the only thing that will work is no contact at all, except through attorneys.  If communication at work is necessary, maybe by company e-mail only, so if it strays even a little from what is appropriate, you can copy it to the Human Resources person, and/or your attorney, and or the police - whatever you decide is appropriate.  But with someone like this, I can't imagine that continued phone and face-to-face contact will work.

[Free One]

I held back a lot in the legal process partly because I was afraid I would send my ex over the edge. I regret that now and wish I would have laid it all out and fought for myself (and my child) better. If your lawyer thinks the drug use is relevant, then use it. That's what they are paid for. Unfortunately, it is naive to think that it will all end when the divorce is final. I say be firm in your actions and boundaries now so that this can end for you. If something does push him over the edge, it's not your fault. It's not your responsibility to save him from the consequences of his actions.

[atcrossroads]

I held back a lot in the legal process partly because I was afraid I would send my ex over the edge. I regret that now and wish I would have laid it all out and fought for myself (and my child) better. If your lawyer thinks the drug use is relevant, then use it. That's what they are paid for. Unfortunately, it is naive to think that it will all end when the divorce is final. I say be firm in your actions and boundaries now so that this can end for you. If something does push him over the edge, it's not your fault. It's not your responsibility to save him from the consequences of his actions.

Free One,

This is really good advice and something I need to see.  I am SO used to backing down, smoothing things over, and not rocking the boat, but honestly, I am sick and tired of his harassment.  Or, abuse. Yeah, let's call it what it is -- abuse.  I am ready to stand up.  That doesn't mean I'm not scared of pushing him over the edge -- I am -- but I am tired of being bullied so much.  Thank you!

[atcrossroads]

Everyone has given excellent advice and lots to think about -- I sent the letter to two members who assured me that I would likely be safe to post it here for the group, so I am going to do so, changing a bit for anonymity.  If it will help someone else, then it's worth posting, I suppose.  I am hoping it will be sent tomorrow, and I certainly hope I won't be "found out" here.

My family has concerns that the letter is too strong and may evoke a violenct response.  They are proud of me for standing up, but we are all scared of him because of things he's said he wants to do.  My gut is to tone it down a hair but send it.  He IS bullying me, and I worry if I am passive, he will continue.  In Splitting , it says if the craziness is not addressed, it will escalate.  

So here is the letter -- any thoughts, advice, comments are welcome!


xxx

Re:   xx

Dear Ms. xx:

Thank you for providing a proposed Property Settlement Agreement for my client’s review. We are reviewing the document and will respond as soon as possible in the interest of resolving this case without unnecessary litigation.

I would also like to address your client’s allegation that Ms. xxx has defamed him in some manner. First, Mr. xx has made a bald faced and inflammatory accusation, but provides no examples of any statements by my client that he believes are defamatory. Second, it is Mr.xxs unsupported allegations that are “counter-productive” to our efforts to settle this matter in the interests of both parties. Lastly, it is Mr.xx’s recent communications to my client that “reflects poorly” on him.

As you will see in the attached e-mail and FaceBook communications, Mr. xx has harassed and badgered my client in a meandering and voluminous litany of e-mails, stating the following, for example:

xxx: “I can’t tell you how much I fully, completely, and utterly despise you at this point.”

xxxx: “Here’s the deal: I hate talking to you, seeing you, hearing your name, ANY goddamnedthing about you.

xxxx:  "I can't wait until you are burning in hell!"

I also bring to your attention an incident that occurred on xxx, 2013, at their mutual workplace. At the end of the day, Mr. xx became enraged and screamed at my client in the presence of co-workers. It was highly embarrassing to her and completely unacceptable behavior. In a threatening tone the following day, xxx, Mr. xx e-mailed, “However, unless you think events like yesterday are necessary, YOU NEED TO RESPOND TO MY EMAILS” (italics added), clearly implying that he will confront her again at work if she does not respond to the e-mails on his time schedule.

Mr. Wxxx’s communications are both hurtful to my client, and a significant impediment to our efforts to settle this case. I ask that you bring them to his attention at your earliest convenience.



There you have it.  Thoughts?  One of the members I messaged to suggested a specific boundary and consequence should be added, like if your client does xxx again, an Order of Protection will be served.

Why am I so nervous to have my attorney send this?  And how the heck did the man who loved me for so many years end up with nothing but a pit of black hatred for me?  It's truly surreal and so painful; I wouldn't wish this experience on anyone!

[atcrossroads]

I feel extremely nervous and anxious, as my attorney's secretary just sent me the letter he faxed today to my husband's attorney.  I asked him to revise the wording in a couple places (ex. use "yelled" instead of "screamed" to tone down a hair.  Well, he left it all pretty much verbatim as above.  I am fearful of the reaction I'm going to get. 

Remember, we work together, and he is CONSUMED with hate for me and how he wants to "get me" and make me suffer and pay. 

Should I be taking precautions at work?  We work on opposite ends of a large building and don't park in same lot. Still... .  nervous!

[Matt]

Well you know him better than we do, so you can decide what precautions are reasonable.

If you go to work about the same time other people do, maybe you can walk in with someone, and at the end of the day, go out together.

Maybe change your routine a little so he won't know for sure when you will arrive at work and at home.

Maybe carry an audio-recorder, or learn to use your cell phone as a recorder.  You might even have your lawyer tell the other lawyer, "My client will be audio-recording any conversations with your client."

Does the other lawyer give any assurances, such as "I will advise my client not to have any direct contact with Ms. Crossroads."?

If you are really concerned, can you get an Order Of Protection (or "Restraining Order" - no need to accuse him of anything, just say that you want no contact with him... .  ?

[atcrossroads]

Thanks for the response, Matt.

The weird thing is... .  yes, I do know him.  Or, rather I DID.  I feel like the man I knew for 12 years is gone, and I do NOT know this Mr. Hyde.  Sure, I've had my glimpses into the dark side over the duration of the relationship, but for most part my husband was loving (fake, I guess), kind, took good care of me, and we were happy.  He was remorseful after rages and said he was a bad person and felt bad.  Since he declined in last couple years (began unraveling in lots of ways), I was split more and more.  When I finally left a few months ago (after being separated in the house for months - horrid), I became PITCH BLACK.  He told me he'd be vindictive and make me pay... .  that he wanted to make sure I suffered.  God, how scary.  He is like a STRANGER.

So, though he has never touched me, I have seen him consumed with hate for many others over the years - and it's usually more bark than bite, though he fantasizes about what he would like to do ("I f'ing hate him so much, I'd love to go over to his house and slit his dam* throat".  Scary talk.  No follow through.  He told me this summer he would kick my a$$... .  didn't care that I was a woman.

He has never touched me, but again, I feel I don't know this man anymore.  I don't really know what he's capable of and wonder if everyone has a snapping point which can push them over edge to really lash out.

It seems a very fine line between standing up for my rights of peace and safety (not being harrassed and bullied) and fear of pushing him to explode like a volcano.  

It is certainly an uneasy feeling... .  I wish we had some space in between and didn't work same place.

I have been having someone walk me to my car and will continue... .  thank you!

Oh, also - I emailed my attorney asking him to put in a boundary -- if behaviors continue, client will be advised to take appropriate action which may include order of protection.  He didn't add that in -- not sure if it was b/c he disagreed that it was necessary or because he was so busy today in court and wanted to get the letter sent.  I suspect the latter.  We both agreed letter needed to be faxed today.