Why it takes so long... explained...

[Beware of Junk Psychology...]

Hi,

Generally speaking, all ex-partners of those with BPD report that the pain and separation-process take significantly longer, in proportion to a "normal" relationship. The simple explanation is, that in contrast to a "normal" relationship, the borderline-behavioral pattern/element creates a much more intense bonding. Psychologically speaking it's called an "affective bond". It's created by affects such as feelings, emotions, moods or temperament. When two people meet and share a living environment, so do their wishes, needs, expectations, opinions, goals, values and actions.

Through this, a multitude of feelings are touched and activated and the experiences are stored in their memory. Between these two people we can now assume an emotion-experience-matrix, that is achieved as a result of shared experiences. This represents the relationship and the bond between these two people. Through the Borderline-behavioral pattern/element this, of course, creates a destructive emotion-experience-matrix.

Interesting in connection to BPD, is the bond-paradox of pathological bonding. They call to our attention that bonding and loving are not identical. Not every bond means love, but every relationship creates or develops a bond. We are all familiar wth those paradoxical phenomenon, in which people return to an evironment where they are abused, devalued or exploited. (e.g. prostitution or crime) eventhough no one forces them to be. These are paradoxical phenomenon of bondage and dependency in which people are abused, neglected, pushed away, are therfore not loved and still return to a self-destructive relationship.

The explanation of this behavior can be found in B.F. Skinners learning theory. According to this, a bond is intensified when the positive and negative experiences in the relationship are alternated irregularly. This means that irrationality and unpredictability creates a much stronger bond. This is definitly at the core of the BPD relationship.

For the ex-partner of the Borderliner, the irrational and unpredictable behavior of BPD creates a very strong bond in the positive, as well as in the negative sense. So in a  nutshell: the stronger the bond, the more investment in processing the loss of the relationship. That means: more pain, more time, more healing, more patience, etc... .  

Will we heal? Yes, we will 

mrclear

[mrclear]

Hi,

Generally speaking, all ex-partners of those with BPD report that the pain and separation-process take significantly longer, in proportion to a "normal" relationship. The simple explanation is, that in contrast to a "normal" relationship, the borderline-behavioral pattern/element creates a much more intense bonding. Psychologically speaking it's called an "affective bond". It's created by affects such as feelings, emotions, moods or temperament. When two people meet and share a living environment, so do their wishes, needs, expectations, opinions, goals, values and actions.

Through this, a multitude of feelings are touched and activated and the experiences are stored in their memory. Between these two people we can now assume an emotion-experience-matrix, that is achieved as a result of shared experiences. This represents the relationship and the bond between these two people. Through the Borderline-behavioral pattern/element this, of course, creates a destructive emotion-experience-matrix.

Interesting in connection to BPD, is the bond-paradox of pathological bonding. They call to our attention that bonding and loving are not identical. Not every bond means love, but every relationship creates or develops a bond. We are all familiar wth those paradoxical phenomenon, in which people return to an evironment where they are abused, devalued or exploited. (e.g. prostitution or crime) eventhough no one forces them to be. These are paradoxical phenomenon of bondage and dependency in which people are abused, neglected, pushed away, are therfore not loved and still return to a self-destructive relationship.

The explanation of this behavior can be found in B.F. Skinners learning theory. According to this, a bond is intensified when the positive and negative experiences in the relationship are alternated irregularly. This means that irrationality and unpredictability creates a much stronger bond. This is definitly at the core of the BPD relationship.

For the ex-partner of the Borderliner, the irrational and unpredictable behavior of BPD creates a very strong bond in the positive, as well as in the negative sense. So in a  nutshell: the stronger the bond, the more investment in processing the loss of the relationship. That means: more pain, more time, more healing, more patience, etc... .  

Will we heal? Yes, we will 

mrclear

[Bananas]

Thanks for posting this mrclear.  This is something I have been struggling with.  I have been broken up with many times, and was widowed and the way i feel this time is unexplainable.   This is the worst.  I feel so consumed.  I have always been able to pull myself through but not this time.  I am hoping therapy will help.  I like to make sense of things and this explanation makes sense. 

Something I have to struggle with as I have to work with my exBPDbf.  I have told him our contact must be work related only and he is finding new creative ways to keep doing his thing.  My therapist said it will get worse before it gets better... .  ugh!

I was thinking of that movie "Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind" and wishing there was a way to just have him erased from my memory.  I am tired of feeling this way.

[cookiecrumbled]

Thank you.

Thank you for the validation of my prolonged sorrow and the encouragement that it will not last forever.

In the meantime, I will try to wait patiently for the tears to stop falling.

Cookie (formerly onetoughcookie)

[benny2]

dogrrrl, I was also thinking just the other day that I wish I could get some type of hypnosis to erase him from my mind. What Mrclear wrote makes sense. I have been back and forth with this man for many years, so the bond was very intense. Others do not understand. My friends and family keep telling me just move on, forget about him, but they don't understand the impact this kind of a relationship has on you and they think I am crazy when I try to explain it. Its so frustrating. One thing I question though, is the impact as strong on them? It seems like it is not at all.

[flynavy]

Wow... .  well said.  it does make sense.  I am aware of neural pathways we create... .  much like our computers do the more teh same pattern of use/abuse occurs.  Our brains are the largest computer.  As computers can get Trojan Horses which steal our identity, kind of analogous to our brains and neural pathways.  BPD/NPD behaviors and tactics essentially create a neural pathway that is extremely strong.  I was told a long time ago that if you want to be creative that day... .  or you have to think out of the box at work... .  just take a different route to work... .  if you eat and brush your teeth... .  do it in opposite fashion.  If you park in the same vicinity at work go elsewhere.  Apparently a study was done that shows it brakes teh entrenched neural pathways in our brains and opens different parts of the brain more open to new fresh ideas.  It may work with us trying to detach and create new pathways to wellness, peace of mind, and new healthy relationships... .  

[wanttoknowmore]

Mr.clear,

Thanks for this meaningful post. Yes, a specially strong bond is created with pwBPD as you explained very well.

I just would like to add that the way the break up happens in such r/s ,is also

another factor for prolonged grief.

pwBPDs give mixed messages even at the tail end of r/s like mine said "i will let you know when I am ready to talk to you" after she said a few days ago "don;t ever contact me at all as it will make hard for me to move on"

These mixed messages get the Non confused and give a lingering hope .

I mean, there is no FINALITY to these break ups and there is this possibilty of pwBPD's sudden contact in future. That uncertainty also hinder detachment.

[huhhuh]

So I'm not crazy because I feel it was the most intense r/s i have been involved in. That is good to hear.

With her I felt alive. I felt I was living life. I am not sure I will ever experience the same kind of aliveness again.

[benny2]

yep keeping you on a string. That is exactly what I told mine a couple days ago. Like they are keeping you around for a spare in case the relationship they are working on behind your back fails. When all else fails, theres always benny2. grrrrr it just makes me so mad but I have only to blame but myself for getting in so deep. Before I moved in with him, I was questioning whether or not it was a good idea. He told me to follow my gut instinct. Almost like he was trying to forwarn me. My gut said don't, but I ignored it and moved in anyways. dumb de dumb dumb

[mrclear]

Hi,

The break-up is just as irregular and unpredictable as the r/s. Either they cut you out of their lives as if you never existed, or they keep you around to be able to recycle you at a later date. The question is whether you are willing to allow this behavior. Really moving on has nothing to do with this... .  

Our pain is real. It is healthy to go through each stage of the relationship and process the pain. We are healthy and we need this, however long it takes... .  In the end it is important to remember that it is not about how much you love somebody, but who you are when you are with them... .  Thus: whether you are able to love yourself... .   

mrclear

[Hurt llama]

dogrrrl, I was also thinking just the other day that I wish I could get some type of hypnosis to erase him from my mind. What Mrclear wrote makes sense. I have been back and forth with this man for many years, so the bond was very intense. Others do not understand. My friends and family keep telling me just move on, forget about him, but they don't understand the impact this kind of a relationship has on you and they think I am crazy when I try to explain it. Its so frustrating. One thing I question though, is the impact as strong on them? It seems like it is not at all.

Benny, Consider looking at it this way. The pain you feel, perhaps the agony of this crazy withdrawal and missing contact. Imagine this is a bit of what the BPD person feels all the time without connection.

That is how I think of it. That (some of them at least) live in a frenetic, super charged anxiety filled state and that feeling that we have of needing to reach out to the one who might be causing or exacerbating our pain might be how they need to connect all the time.

Do they feel the same as we do in missing us? I know for sure mine does tremendously. I think she's pretty much ruined and knows she will never be able to take the chances she did with me, as I ended it and was her worst nightmare in a way. Not out of malice but of self preservation and misplaced 'revenge'.

Can she go meet a new guy and turn on the charm and do it all again. Oh yeah. no doubt about it. But she lives and they live in a miserable state of mind.

Matters less less and less every day... .  This is after years of us both push pulling.

enough.

[benny2]

I ended also because I could not take the push/pull, wondering why, wondering who. I could not handle the rejection, the projection, trying to analize everything he said because there is always a different meaning behind it. I just don't know how some can put up with it and continue. I tried but after having nothing but failed relationships in my life, I am just wore out. To be honest, I am wondering if that fairytale fantasy that he showed me could possibly even exist with a normal person. But unfortunately he gave me a taste of it, real or not, and now that is what I want. What scares me is I may end up alone the rest of my life because of it.

[f-sumbit]

Are there really such monsters among us?  My experience and the experiences you all describe tell me yes, but I still find it hard to believe.

[benny2]

It is hard to believe, In fact I just had a heated conversation with a good friend of mine. I was trying to explain this whole BPD to her and why its so hard to detach. She just cannot believe that this exists and that I have had such a hard time leaving. Thank god I found this board because I think we are the only ones that truely understand each other.

[caughtnreleased]

Does every pwBPD experience the same intensity of connection/bond in all their relationships? The intimacy I experienced with mine was unreal (literally... .  as I soon found out .  We weren't together long, but for me the experience was rather earth shattering as it made me really examine myself.  As for him, he moved on to someone new really fast, even though I don't think I was painted black, but I know I started to trigger him very early on.  In my mind, as I try to imagine moving on to someone else right after this type of intense experience/connection/intimacy and experiencing it again with someone new, it would a)exhaust me emotionally, and b)cheapen the whole experience (because really... .  the importance of this type of connection and intimacy is that it's special, and unique! - regardless of how things turn out it was something important to me and I need to acknowledge that).  I think it would make me feel worse inside if I could feel this with anybody, regardless of who they were. And while I still think about him soo much, I am happy to be taking time to reflect, absorb what I've learned and improve my relationships in general.  

So... .  does a pwBPD jump from intensity to intensity when it comes to relationships or intensity - superficial - intensity? It is all rather baffling to me! My ex would sometimes speak of others who were supposedly important in his life (his new gf, a friend who took him in every time he went through a crisis) as if they were distant acquaintances, almost strangers... .  

[leftbehind]

Laurie99, all I can tell you is that mine was intense, magical, spiritual, sexual, like a "bestfriendship with wings".  But when I think about it... .  he had the same type of magical, spiritual, sexual, blah blah blah relationship with his ex right before me as well.

[Conundrum]

It's the stuff that dreams are made of:

A Dream Within A Dream

Take this kiss upon the brow!

And, in parting from you now,

Thus much let me avow-

You are not wrong, who deem

That my days have been a dream;

Yet if hope has flown away

In a night, or in a day,

In a vision, or in none,

Is it therefore the less gone?

All that we see or seem

Is but a dream within a dream.

I stand amid the roar

Of a surf-tormented shore,

And I hold within my hand

Grains of the golden sand-

How few! yet how they creep

Through my fingers to the deep,

While I weep- while I weep!

O God! can I not grasp

Them with a tighter clasp?

O God! can I not save

One from the pitiless wave?

Is all that we see or seem

But a dream within a dream?

By: Edgar Allan Poe

Tennyson wrote: 'Tis better to have loved and lost Than never to have loved at all.

Isn't that the question though. We focus too much on the endings, implicitly denigrating all that came in between. There are many joys in this life and some are purer and less egocentric than a BPD lover. The harmonious feeling when linking perfectly created chords on a musical instrument, the parent-child bond, the taste of the finest tequila, the love of one's Grandparent's, a fast car, a winding road on a sunny warm day, your most favorite pet, your mother, the other more stable lovers or partners, or spouses, whom you still value. BPD is about exclusion. Don't exclude all the good things that remain in this life and lament what was a ship that passed in the night. They pass for all... .  but was yours for a while. That's ok too. Peace                                     

[ScotisGone74]

Congratulations Conundrum on a great post.  Very good one.  All of us Nons have the opportunity, regardless of how hurt, how mistreated, how discarded we may feel ,    to look back and reflect on the few wonderful bits of time we spent with the exBPD, and realize it was a relationship set to fail before it started, they took all the love we gave them, they couldn't return it, give someone all you can today that can return it.

[Sleep doc]

Conundrum

That was perfect - eloquently stated and well put.  True love, real love is work.  It won't be easy but you will want to put in the work.  Every experience provides you wisdom.  I owe her for teaching me wisdom - that is a gift and I do cherish at least that much.

[findingmyselfagain]

True love is more mature and slightly more dull than the whirlwind of passion we're fed by media and society. I thought I met the girl of my dreams, so naturally (I thought!) I was ok with moving very quickly. I've seen my exf from a distance move from r/s to r/s and none of them have eased her pain. A part of me wants to be friendly with her, but thankfully I know how it will end. I need to keep NC, nearly a year now. It was the most surreal experience I've ever had. It's harder, but far kinder to let them find their own way instead of reaching out to them.

[Clearmind]

Not everyone attaches to a Borderline.

mrclear, have you found your reason as to why you attached to a Borderline?

[Hurt llama]

Clearmind seems to have edited her comment to better or more accurately reflect what she meant.

The question is a good one that I asked myself as to why I attached to mine and of course almost anyone could get sucked into an encounter and the insanity with a BPD. A more healthy self would most likely flee faster and smoother. Or better said, an individual whose own issues were not as exposed as ours.

Would we attract again to a different Borderline? Some of us have. But once the true detachment and experiencing and dealing with the pain and agony some of us experience, I'm sure many of us will have our radar up and recognise the symptoms sooner of a BPD individual and avoid the same mistakes.

[mrclear]

I posted this after I read a great, german book called "Borderline broke heart." and reading a part on why it takes so long to recover from the relationship. It's about the intense bonding that occurs.

Clearmind asked me why I attached myself to my udBPDexw. A valid and great question!

My T explained to me that we often repeat our childhood patterns and choose to relive them. We seek partners and relationships that often reflect these patterns. My own bonding with a BPD clearly stems from the realtionship with my father. He reflected and projected his own, dysfunctional childhood onto his own children. He was moderately succesful, but somehow always felt he wasn't good or succesful enough. My brother and I loved him unconditionally, but my father always felt he had to put us down and devalue us in the face of his own, imagined iniquity. This also lead to physical abuse... .  

So imagine a child who feels devalued and is always trying to please someone who can't be pleased. Sound familiar? As the oldest child I felt forced to keep our family balanced and devoloped a care-giver-syndrom, which I subsequently took into adulthood and my ensuing relationships. I subconciously chose my relaltionships to be able to repeat the dysfunction that I had always known... .  

In my relationship with my BPDexw these childhood issues were repeated over and over again. I was with someone I couldn't please, couldn't fill and who wouldn't allow me to help them or love them. The idealization-phase had turned my world upside down, thinking I had finally found everything I had been searching for. As the devaluation-stage set in, I was returned to my childhood, constantly trying to please and soothe. In a sick way, I guess I lived what I knew.

As the terrifying affects of this toxic relationship finally forced me to leave, I was reduced to nothing and had to build myself up from scratch. I was finally forced to address my own childhood issues and find out how to break this vicious circle. I a way, I have to thank my BPDexw for this... .  

Through, T, studying, reading and a still on-going process of healing, I am finally able to realise that I am a valuable person who deserves to be happy and loved. I am now in a new relationship (2 years) in which I finally feel loved and valued for who I am. I am no longer critisized, abused or devalued. Every relationship has their ups and downs but I feel a mutual trust and respect that I have not experienced before. I am still reflecting, processing and healing and it will probably take a while, but I am full of hope for the future.

We probably know this, but this helped me tremendously: www.tinatessina.com/when-love-is-kind.html

atb, mrclear

[Clearmind]

Sounds very familiar! And very succinctly put mrclear.

I have a BPD parent and my other parent is an enabler – I certainly know why I chose a Borderline. I was also devalued as a child and my relationship choice only reinforced what I had experienced. You may agree mrclear, that its interesting how we mirror our childhoods and our relationship skills are often mirrored from our childhoods. I know all too well that I chose a relationship dynamic which was exactly like that of my parents.

It certainly helps to see the role of the Borderline and our role – it completes the picture and hopefully with some healing on our part we won’t choose a BPD #2.

I am pleased to hear you have found healthy!  Your new SO truly values you for who you are and you no longer need to walk on eggshells to please. Its almost like we can now exhale.

As for original post that started this thread – the bond between my ex and I was a trauma bond – I had some unresolved childhood trauma and my ex, wow, his childhood was fraught with abuse. We attempted to save each other. Because neither of us had mature relationship skills it was full of conflict. Neither he nor I could stop the conflict.

I have come to a stage where I have compassion for my ex, I no longer feel the need to “get even” and I have let go. It’s freeing!

All the best to you mrclear and continue you on your healing path – your post speaks volumes. Be kind to you!

[nomoredrama71]

hi mrclear,

thanks for posting the title of the book you reed. I am reading tons of books in english but did not find a good one in my own language.

I am currently going through the process of detaching from my partner of 14 years. It's not easy. But understanding why it is so hard might help.

So thanks again 

[flynavy]

Conundrum... .  I couldn't have said it better.  I remember telling my ex BPD?NPD gf it is better to have loved than to have never loved at all.  We all know our love was real... .  and that can NEVER be bad. For all of you spiritual people its why we are here!  We are beings that need and want to love and be loved... .  share beautiful moments together etc.  I for one will not let someone who is ill take the wind out of my sails!  You state this so well... .  "The harmonious feeling when linking perfectly created chords on a musical instrument, the parent-child bond, the taste of the finest tequila, the love of one's Grandparent's, a fast car, a winding road on a sunny warm day, your most favorite pet, your mother, the other more stable lovers or partners, or spouses, whom you still value.

I for one know this to be true because i was married to a beautiful, loving, caring woman for 32 years.  When she learned the doctors could nothing more and she had just a few months to live, she called my sister... .  went to my mothers house because she didn't know how to tell me because she knew I would not take this knews well... .  I have experienced True Love and I know it is still out there for me.  We have to move forward because every day we obsess on our exBPD/NPDs is a day we will not have with that right loving caring SO... .  that fast car... .  our loving parents... .  that beautiful sunset!

[benny2]

So sorry to hear of your lose flynavy. That must have been very difficult. I can't imagaine. I for one have never had a truely functional relationship. I tend to seek those needy types. I did not grow up with any kind of abuse or ill treatment. I pretty much had the leave it to Beaver family. However, there were issues with my older brother, but I don't think that had a lasting effect on me. I did however loose my mother at a young age and although I knew she was sick, I did not know she was dying. It was her choice for me not to be told, so I respect that, but the impact it had on me to come home from school one day and hear she was in the hospital and died that evening. I never even had the chance to say goodbye. My father remarried very shortly after she passed and rejected me as his new wife had jealousy issues with me. I do believe that did something to me and possibly has something to do with my poor decisions on whom I choose to be with. I know I have issus with rejection, and will reject someone first if I sense them rejecting me. I never got professional help with it. I had to deal with it on my own and I think I have a very deep hurt inside still.

[Billa]

Laurie99, all I can tell you is that mine was intense, magical, spiritual, sexual, like a "bestfriendship with wings".  But when I think about it... .  he had the same type of magical, spiritual, sexual, blah blah blah relationship with his ex right before me as well.

good point

[flynavy]

Beeny2... .  one of the best things I ever did was to seek therapy... .  especially after the passing of my wife.  Do yourself a big favor and seek out professional help... .  OK.  I just wouldn't want to see you get into a circle of insanity with these type of women... .  there are some very good women... .  now you know what to look out for!  Good Luck my friend!