Is it really a fear of intimacy at all?

[Lunira]

To be honest, the whole "fear of intimacy" thing has always seemed off to me somehow, as far as an explanation of BPD behavior goes.  They never really "see" another human being, only their projections and a potential feeding trough for supply, right? 

Bearing that in mind... .  

When is a BPD nice to you?  When they want to ingratiate themselves to you, of course.  They are nice to you when they want to butter you up, so that you'll give them what they want and put up with whatever treatment they care to dish out.  And deep down, they believe everyone is exactly like them.  Therefore, they assume that you have the same ulterior motives when you are nice to them as they have, when they're being nice to you. 

This is part of the reason why they push you away when you're "being nice" -- they assume that your motives are as ulterior, your words are as phony, and your behavior is as deceptive as theirs would be, if they were in your position and "being nice".

This is part of the reason why they split you black too, especially when their efforts to butter you up have failed in getting them what they want.  Think of it from their perspective.  Their attempt to garner an extended feeding session at the supply trough fell flat, and then here you are, engaging in pathetically transparent attempts to manipulate them into serving your ends, to their detriment!  (Again, them assuming you would have the same motives they would, if your positions were reversed.)  No wonder they get so pissed!

When do they split you white and come back?  Yes, partially when they need something and they're having a hard time finding supply... .  but also, once you have displayed sufficient contempt and indifference towards them that you feel real to them, not like you're acting or faking. 

Why do BPDs and NPDs end up involved with one another, a much higher percentage of the time than chance would otherwise indicate?  They have the same underlying assumptions about people's motivations, and operate in similar ways.  Moreover, they both treat each other like crap!  Being treated badly (and treating others badly) is what feels real to them.  They interpret "being nice" as tantamount to "being fake" -- an exercise in thespian skills, undertaken to manipulate others to one's own benefit!  Also, do the members of a BPD+NPD couple ever feel more real and alive than when they have some sort of shouting, screaming, dish-throwing, brakes screeching drama going on?  They feed on it, both of them, as anyone who has ever observed such a couple can attest.

Why do BPDs tend to find another source and drop the Non after a time?  Just as a Narcissist, they dislike people just in general and see them as no more than a meal ticket (literally or metaphorically).  Covering up that essential anger, contempt, and predatory drive with a "being nice" mask takes a lot of effort, and the longer the assocation, the more effort it takes.  The longer the relationship lasts, the more opportunity the Non has to notice incongruencies between the persona and their behaviors... .  the more opportunities the Non has to see the mask slip.  If you can get N Units of supply (be it emotional, financial, or whathaveyou) from a new person for X units of effort, why would you expend 10X effort to get the same N units of supply from your current partner?  When you lay your own humanity aside and view it from the position of a ruthlessly pragmatic predator, the devalue, discard, and lightning quick replacement makes perfect sense.

[Clearmind]

To be honest, the whole "fear of intimacy" thing has always seemed off to me somehow, as far as an explanation of BPD behavior goes.  They never really "see" another human being, only their projections and a potential feeding trough for supply, right?  

Seems “off” or you don’t fully understand it?

When is a BPD nice to you?  When they want to ingratiate themselves to you, of course.  They are nice to you when they want to butter you up, so that you'll give them what they want and put up with whatever treatment they care to dish out.  And deep down, they believe everyone is exactly like them.  Therefore, they assume that you have the same ulterior motives when you are nice to them as they have, when they're being nice to you.  

This is part of the reason why they push you away when you're "being nice" -- they assume that your motives are as ulterior, your words are as phony, and your behavior is as deceptive as theirs would be, if they were in your position and "being nice".

This is part of the reason why they split you black too, especially when their efforts to butter you up have failed in getting them what they want.  Think of it from their perspective.  Their attempt to garner an extended feeding session at the supply trough fell flat, and then here you are, engaging in pathetically transparent attempts to manipulate them into serving your ends, to their detriment!  (Again, them assuming you would have the same motives they would, if your positions were reversed.)  No wonder they get so pissed!

When do they split you white and come back?  Yes, partially when they need something and they're having a hard time finding supply... .  but also, once you have displayed sufficient contempt and indifference towards them that you feel real to them, not like you're acting or faking.  

Why do BPDs and NPDs end up involved with one another, a much higher percentage of the time than chance would otherwise indicate?  They have the same underlying assumptions about people's motivations, and operate in similar ways.  Moreover, they both treat each other like crap!  Being treated badly (and treating others badly) is what feels real to them.  They interpret "being nice" as tantamount to "being fake" -- an exercise in thespian skills, undertaken to manipulate others to one's own benefit!  Also, do the members of a BPD+NPD couple ever feel more real and alive than when they have some sort of shouting, screaming, dish-throwing, brakes screeching drama going on?  They feed on it, both of them, as anyone who has ever observed such a couple can attest.

Why do BPDs tend to find another source and drop the Non after a time?  Just as a Narcissist, they dislike people just in general and see them as no more than a meal ticket (literally or metaphorically).  Covering up that essential anger, contempt, and predatory drive with a "being nice" mask takes a lot of effort, and the longer the assocation, the more effort it takes.  The longer the relationship lasts, the more opportunity the Non has to notice incongruencies between the persona and their behaviors... .  the more opportunities the Non has to see the mask slip.  If you can get N Units of supply (be it emotional, financial, or whathaveyou) from a new person for X units of effort, why would you expend 10X effort to get the same N units of supply from your current partner?  When you lay your own humanity aside and view it from the position of a ruthlessly pragmatic predator, the devalue, discard, and lightning quick replacement makes perfect sense.

Lunira, I’m unsure whether you are asking for clarification on splitting and the other behaviors you describe or you are providing information – can you clarify this for me?

If providing information can you let me know where you located it?

[Lunira]

Seems off, like it just doesn't quite square with the observable facts about their behavior.  I understand it, but completely disagree with it.  Look at their behavior.  They don't run when they're offered intimacy per se. 

1) They run when they don't get supply, whether it's being made to feel special or it's more tangible things (rent money, bailing them out of any one of a hundred jams, etc.)

2) They run when there are other nons they can get supply from that don't require as much disingenuous thespianism (which is an effort), as this particular non does.

3) They run when they think the Non is trying to turn the tables and play them for fools, instead.

Really, does intimacy have anything to do with these?  No.


As far as the other goes, just sharing some of my own observations and musings on it.

[Clearmind]

BPD is steeped in the fear of abandonment, intimacy and engulfment. These feelings are all diametric to one another – not one we understand however they are very real for the person with BPD. These feelings that are in opposition of one another cause the push/pull and splitting behaviors which are hallmarks of BPD.

What is your definition/meaning of the term “intimacy”?

[Lunira]

BPD is steeped in the fear of abandonment, intimacy and engulfment. These feelings are all diametric to one another – not one we understand however they are very real for the person with BPD. These feelings that are in opposition of one another cause the push/pull and splitting behaviors which are hallmarks of BPD.

What is your definition/meaning of the term “intimacy”?

See, you're assuming I haven't read that, or just don't know.  No, I've read that a lot, I just don't agree with parts of it.  My mother is a diagnosed BPD, and frankly, when I finally dropped the usual theory and just looked at her behavior as per the cold calculus of the stock market -- calculated maneuvers meant to maximize one's returns -- her choices suddenly made perfect sense. 

I consider intimacy as being genuine caring, attachment, and vulnerability between two or more people.

[Lady31]

Lunira,

I know EXACTLY what you are saying.  I agree to some degree.  Interesting though - I am here more recently reading up on NPD and believe my H is probably much more NPD than BPD.  Which could explain some of what you are saying perhaps.  You actually see a lot of the same behavior with NPD - projection, abuse, recycles, push/pull, gas lighting, etc.

I had hid so much from my family for so long regarding my H.  I finally started sharing some things as I have filed for divorce.  My sister is a psychiatrist.  She listened for hours to actual events that occurred and asked me several questions.  She then said, "Honey, what you are describing sounds much more like NPD to me."

It's starting to make much more sense.

[Lunira]

It's possible my mother is comorbid for NPD, true.  But her therapist thought she was BPD.  I don't know if he told her straight out or she somehow got a look at the papers or how she came to know, but I remember her coming home raging about it.  Said he thought she had BPD and called him a quack... .  and that was one of the milder words too.  Most of it was four-letter stuff.  

She never went back.

I guess what I'm trying to say is this... .  they're not capable of real intimacy, they just feign it for manipulation.  Just like with your friends, hobbies, job, and everything else.  if they think feigning intimacy is what is needed to get you to pony up with the "poor babys" and the money/favors, that's what they'll feign.  If they think feigning interest in your hobbies is what it'll take, they'll feign that.  If they think pretending to care about your children (or children in general) will get you to cough up some supply, that's what they'll do.  If they think feigning interest in your health or career will do it, that's what they'll do.  They'll pretend to like your friends, agree with your politics, have the same life goals, whatever it takes to get what they're after.  

And later, if they manage to find someone who is willing to give more supply for less thespian effort on their part, they will gladly drop you like a hot rock and go strut and fret their hour upon this new person's stage, instead.  Suddenly, your career is boring, your hobbies are stupid, your children are spoiled brats, you whine too much about your health and they're sick of hearing it, your friends are losers, your political views only show what a tool you are, and your life goals are laughable.  

If this new "acting job" doesn't pan out, the BPD will be back of course.  (Think about being unemployed in the real world... .  when you're desperate for money to pay the bills, low pay is better than no pay at all, right?)  And of course, the second another person comes along who is offering them a better paying "acting job" than what you're offering... .  yup, the BPD is gone again, off to pursue this new opportunity.  

You want the god's honest truth, I'm not too sure they fear engulfment, either.  Think of an actor on a stage.  They look believable from a distance, but the closer you get, the rattier the costume looks, the worse the makeup job, the more obviously fake the wig, and so on.  :)oes a BPD really fear engulfment per se, or do they just fear you getting close enough to see how fake and tacky they really are?

I wonder these things.

[schwing]

Hi Lunira,

My understanding is that if someone is mostly BPD, they can be capable of some degree of sympathy, compassion and empathy.  With NPD in the picture, you factor out the empathy.

I guess what I'm trying to say is this... . they're not capable of real intimacy, they just feign it for manipulation.  Just like with your friends, hobbies, job, and everything else.  if they think feigning intimacy is what is needed to get you to pony up with the "poor babys" and the money/favors, that's what they'll feign.  If they think feigning interest in your hobbies is what it'll take, they'll feign that.  If they think pretending to care about your children (or children in general) will get you to cough up some supply, that's what they'll do.  If they think feigning interest in your health or career will do it, that's what they'll do.  They'll pretend to like your friends, agree with your politics, have the same life goals, whatever it takes to get what they're after.  

My experience with some of the pwBPDs in my life is that some are capable of genuine compassion.  My understanding though is that feelings of intimacy will also trigger their disordered feelings.  The more they feel closer to you, the more their disordered feelings (such as fear of imagined abandonment) will show up.  I imagine that some pwBPD learn to limit their feelings of intimacy as a way of managing their disordered feelings.

Then again, I'm sure some pwBPD are capable of outright manipulation too.

Regardless, I consider them incapable of real intimacy because of how their disordered feelings end up getting stirred up.  I consider them only capable of short-term, fleeting, inconsistent intimacy, then again, some might argue this is no intimacy at all.

And later, if they manage to find someone who is willing to give more supply for less thespian effort on their part, they will gladly drop you like a hot rock and go strut and fret their hour upon this new person's stage, instead.  Suddenly, your career is boring, your hobbies are stupid, your children are spoiled brats, you whine too much about your health and they're sick of hearing it, your friends are losers, your political views only show what a tool you are, and your life goals are laughable.  

The minute someone gets too close, then their fear of abandonment kicks in.  And if you're afraid someone's going to abandon you, the most proactive thing you can do is to abandon them first by claiming they are boring, stupid, etc... .   Whatever their rationale, it's just an excuse for disordered feelings they can't face about themselves.

You want the god's honest truth, I'm not too sure they fear engulfment, either.  Think of an actor on a stage.  They look believable from a distance, but the closer you get, the rattier the costume looks, the worse the makeup job, the more obviously fake the wig, and so on.  :)oes a BPD really fear engulfment per se, or do they just fear you getting close enough to see how fake and tacky they really are?

Maybe it's all an act.  I choose to believe that one wouldn't live a life like this if it were a choice.  Then again, for someone with BPD to choose to live differently would require a determination to act against their impulse, and to do hard work, not an easy choice. 

I do think they are all actors though.  They act like they do not have a deep psychic wound that disrupts all the intimate and familial interactions.  They act like this because they are desperate not to let anyone see these wounds (especially themselves).

Seems off, like it just doesn't quite square with the observable facts about their behavior.  I understand it, but completely disagree with it.  Look at their behavior.  They don't run when they're offered intimacy per se. 

They don't run away from intimacy.  I imagine they crave it as a human characteristic (varying by degrees from person to person).  But it is the consequence of that intimacy that they run away from.  A consequence of which the non-disordered are not always aware.

2) They run when there are other nons they can get supply from that don't require as much disingenuous thespianism (which is an effort), as this particular non does.

I think they keep cycling between people because they choose to maintain the delusion is that the problem is with the non's which make their relationships instable.  At the beginnings of these relationships, when there is little intimacy, they find there is less disordered feelings on their end.  They might choose to believe that it is a matter of finding the "right" one, that they might eventually find someone who does not make them feel badly like they always do eventually.

3) They run when they think the Non is trying to turn the tables and play them for fools, instead.

Really, does intimacy have anything to do with these?  No.

Intimacy for someone *not* dealing with a personality disorder has nothing to do with these things.  I would argue this is not the case for someone dealing with BPD.

To be honest, the whole "fear of intimacy" thing has always seemed off to me somehow, as far as an explanation of BPD behavior goes.  They never really "see" another human being, only their projections and a potential feeding trough for supply, right? 

I don't think pwBPD are afraid of intimacy per say.  Actually I think that, if anyone, co-dependents (which I identify myself as such) are the ones who are afraid of intimacy (which is why some of us keep selecting such partners... . kids born to such people have no choice).  PwBPD are afraid of abandonment, but may present themselves as afraid of intimacy.

I think that some pwBPD are very adept as "seeing another human being."  How else can they pull off their seductions so superbly?  They can read others like a book but are blind their themselves.  As I understand it, it's only when they being to get close that their projections and disorders get in the way.  Otherwise, I think pwBPD might make excellent therapists so long as they can respect the appropriate boundaries and maintain their objectivity.

When is a BPD nice to you?  When they want to ingratiate themselves to you, of course.  They are nice to you when they want to butter you up, so that you'll give them what they want and put up with whatever treatment they care to dish out.  And deep down, they believe everyone is exactly like them.  Therefore, they assume that you have the same ulterior motives when you are nice to them as they have, when they're being nice to you. 

Maybe they believe everyone is exactly like them.  But if that's the case, why do they make such an effort to hide some of their behaviors and feelings?  I think they *want* to believe everyone is just like them because they cannot come to terms with the possibility that they are different and damaged.

I've found some pwBPD who can be truly giving and selfless, but mostly to strangers or people whom they are currently idealizing.  It is a completely different story when it comes to close loved ones or family members.  The thing is, my understanding of this disorder, is that pwBPD don't even have fixed identities, who they are depends upon whom they associate themselves with.  They can be selfish and mean-spirited, but they can also be giving and gregarious.  I would not judge them anymore than I would judge the disposition and character of a toddler... . unless... . I am forced to deal with them at a level beyond acquaintance, then my perspective shifts according.

This is part of the reason why they push you away when you're "being nice" -- they assume that your motives are as ulterior, your words are as phony, and your behavior is as deceptive as theirs would be, if they were in your position and "being nice".

Why wouldn't they distrust you if they simultaneously *feel* that you intend to abandon them?  Because as I understand this disorder, when they feel close to you, they also feel like you are going to abandon them.  They might want you to act badly towards them because then your behavior would be consistent with their feelings.  They might choose to see you as phoney, because they don't want to believe their feelings about you are misguided, or even worse, disordered.

Why do BPDs and NPDs end up involved with one another, a much higher percentage of the time than chance would otherwise indicate?  They have the same underlying assumptions about people's motivations, and operate in similar ways. 

I don't believe pwBPD and pwNPD have the same underlying assumptions about people's motivations, nor do they operate in similar ways.  My mother is uBPD and my father is uNPD.  I think they merely have "compatible" dysfunctions.

Why do BPDs tend to find another source and drop the Non after a time?  Just as a Narcissist, they dislike people just in general and see them as no more than a meal ticket (literally or metaphorically).  Covering up that essential anger, contempt, and predatory drive with a "being nice" mask takes a lot of effort, and the longer the assocation, the more effort it takes.  The longer the relationship lasts, the more opportunity the Non has to notice incongruencies between the persona and their behaviors... . the more opportunities the Non has to see the mask slip.  If you can get N Units of supply (be it emotional, financial, or whathaveyou) from a new person for X units of effort, why would you expend 10X effort to get the same N units of supply from your current partner?  When you lay your own humanity aside and view it from the position of a ruthlessly pragmatic predator, the devalue, discard, and lightning quick replacement makes perfect sense.

What you describe is starting to sound a little bit like Anti-social personality disorder.

With the new DSM, I think the current effort is to evaluation people as they might fit only a spectrum of a variety of mental disorders. 

I'm not sure of what your goals are.  Are you trying to understand you BPD loved one?  Or are you just venting and to some degree devaluing your BPD loved one?  I can understand the necessity of feeling anger towards your BPD loved one.  But I don't know if it is helpful to lump them all into the same lot in an attempt to drown this sack of rats.  Otherwise, your anger is likely to skew the way you perceive other people (whom you might meet in your life) who also suffer from these disorders.  Do you want to hate all pwBPD?  If that is your goal, I can accept that.  But I don't know if this goal will help you in the long run.

Best wishes, Schwing

[VeryFree]

We all are individuals. Neither of us fits entirely in one box.

Neither do our NPD/BPD-SO's.

Imho the theoretical knowledge about this illnesses never fits 100%. For me it's not important which name my stbx illness has, or that she maybe doesn't fit in the box of the DSM IV or V.

For me it's important that I know in which direction I must look, how to handle and where to find support.