BPD/NPD

[flynavy]

Yes... . after tons of research on how we humans are wired, I was amazed to find out that if people with BPD/NPD or the so-called Cluster B personality disorders hurtful, manipulative, deceitful, lying, cheating behaviors stem from being in the survival mode, then so many things make sense.  The cerebral part of the brain is the rational part of the brain... . the thinking/analytical, the right from wrong, the part of the brain that separates us from the rest of the animals on the planet.  The next level down is the limbic part of the brain that mainly controls basic emotions like fear, happiness etc.  These two struggle for power constantly.  Apparently, when someone has emotional trauma in their life as I understand that is the cause of these Cluster B type disorders, (sexual trauma as a child, returning veterans from war PTSD), the limbic part of the brain takes control for the most part.  This part of the brain easily will drive behaviors to the instinctual/survival part of the brain (reptilian)... . thus animalistic, irrational, illogical behavior.  My exBPD/NPD could go from the cutsy, sexy, soft spoken woman to an enraged animal when triggered to survive!  She literally became an animal... . operating from the part of the brain which oddly enough is called the reptilian part of the brain so named because it is that part which is the most primitive... . like any other animal on the planet. Knowing this kind of scares me to know this is the person I was with.  She was really scary when driven to this part of her thinking... . physically abusive, emotionally abusive... . down right mean!  It is my opinion only after this exhaustive research that there is no known cure for the disorder... . at best, when someone is diagnosed, they agree they need help and get it, they can somewhat control triggering the limbic brain from constantly going into the survival mode.

With all that said... . it is unfortunate that we were all taken in by someone with this disorder.  Like I've said before in other posts, for me, I make no excuse for this disorder... . their behavior is unconscionable, wrong, hurtful etc.  There is no cure except for yourself... . you have the power to heal, grow, move on, and truly find a caring, loving, nurturing relationship... . they DO NOT and CANNOT!  Save yourself... . work hard at detaching from this truly animalistic person! (I know!... . through no fault of their own but it makes no difference why or how... . just that they are what they are!  Never forget it!). 

[waitaminute]

And in a sense, people who are so magnetically attracted to BPD are their prey. I think of the kinds of animals that mimic the sounds of their prey to lure them. And then I think of the BPD mirroring technique. Scary and not nice to associate this with a person who also can be so loving. But that reptilian response is like that.

[fromheeltoheal]

Nice take navy, I hadn't heard that analysis before.

I'm beyond blaming her; sure, she's responsible for her actions just like everyone else, but she literally does not know why she does the things she does or have any idea what the underlying motivations are, partly because she's terrified to dig.  I blame her parents, specifically her mother, for creating the shtty home she was raised in, and who knows, maybe if I dug far enough it was because of the shtty homes they were raised in, and on it goes... .

So we're back to taking care of ourselves, partly with the experience and battle scars of a BPD r/s.  Let's not do that again.  It's estimated 2% of the population is BPD; the odds are in our favor, as long as we get and stay healthy, so we don't smell like prey.

[Murbay]

Very interesting research flynavy and something I think we can relate to.

In terms of my ex, I wouldn't have considered her a reptile but more of a praying mantis. She mirrored me from the very beginning, when I initially didn't ignore the red flags (took a step back from the relationship because something didn't feel right) she followed me, made all the right sounds, made me feel like I was being an ass for breaking the heart of this amazing and lovely woman. I relented, decided that any further red flags were down to me thinking negatively.

What was strange is how she got pregnant when a) She was in fear of losing me and b) with the use of contraception (twice! Because that's apparently what happened to SD's biological father too)

Once she got what she needed from me, that's when she turned nasty, after the wedding and the birth of our daughter. Things slide rapidly downhill from there, I lost all sense of who I was and any effort to regain that I was branded all sorts of names. She literally did get inside my head. So rather than reptile, I see her as a praying mantis.

[flynavy]

At the end of the day we should really count our blessings that we were able to see the light... . after my wife died from cancer i was a wounded man... . she was my wife's nurse for 7 years... . so I thought what I saw was what i was gonna get... . at first yes but it got twisted very quickly.  I had a huge whole to fill and she knew exactly what to do, what to say to suck me into the black widows web.  How could an articulate, beautiful, cute, awesome looking woman turn into the ugly woman I saw far too many times to count.  Worst was when I called off the wedding... . worst night of my life.  She was extremely physically violent, and said some of the worst obscenities I have ever heard come out of a beautiful woman's mouth.  Why did I stay... . the sex and body to body contact was absolutely perfect... . a perfect fit!  She actually said to me... . you have the life... . you go to work... . work out... . eat dinner and get laid every night.  If its too good to be true... . IT IS! When she was enraged... . she took on the persona of a trapped animal in survival mode.  The next day... . call me/act like nothing happened!

[confetti]

This is interesting. I can understand what you are saying about survival mode.

However, the way you wrote these seems a little biased... .

Just because we BPD/NPD cannot compute what feeling is missing, does not mean we are out to consciously pick victims or are animals.

From my own experience, its whatever fills the hole for them or serves as narcissistic supply to us, but even if we become aware of this or talk about it, it doesn't extinguish the fact that they are not decisions we are informatively making.

So, yes and no.

It's not fair to go around saying that Nons are able to see the light.

I, too, lost a BPD partner and it still stung. There are probably people that read these boards that have a similar issue and know that they would be demeaned to admit that they have a PD and subjected to non thinking that their feelings do not matter, just as apparently that their exes must also not have them.

Having a personality disorder myself, it's easy to understand that they are human too.

They are not just computer players in the world, lacking certain emotions does not make you devoid of others.

I hope you really consider this and find forgiveness eventually. It's a good time to reflect and find what your life is really about. Maybe in some cases she wasn't worth your time, very understandable, but please... . don't soak others with such evil terms. 

Especially reptilian terms.

[Changed4safety]

I once wrote a poem about my penchant for getting involved with wounded young men (it's a pattern for me, though my exBPD was by far the worst:)

"They are like hurt hawks, these boys who flutter into my care... . "  was the opening line, and it described being clawed and bitten as I healed them, and then watching them abandon me.  I was awfully insightful when I was in my early 20s... . wish I'd been able to permanently change.  Contributed to continue the idea of predator/prey. 

[whatisthetruth]

ya know... . i get the point here. 

but - i have done fight or flight situations my whole life - military during persian gulf... . handling fire for a living... . my mothers alcoholism... . and i am not BPD. 

there has to be something else going on in the neurochemicals or receptors.   

my x isnt sorry a day - isnt missing an effn beat - of course is feigning heartbreak to anyone who will listen about bad old me... . cueing up her allies.

im telling you - premeditation in getting what they want.  they may not be conscious of their cycle... . but my ex knows EXACTLY what she is doing when shes doing it.

[Changed4safety]

So does the tiger when charging its prey.  It doesn't make it any less of a survival instinct.  When my ex and I hard arguements, I observed once that he didn't argue to compromise, he argued to win.  He agreed whole heartedly and said, "You are my significant other, therefore you are the enemy."  On some level when he was dysregulated he felt it was a matter of survival.  The main reason I eventually left was there were incidents of choking.  It always ratcheted up so fast I wondered one day if he would not back off in time and I would be brain-dead or dead-dead. 

[flynavy]

whatisthetruth... . I'm with you... . I am an Adult Child of an Alcoholic (father)... . I was beat as a child... . scars to prove it protecting my mother... . shot at as a Navy pilot in Viet Nam (missles and AAA), but did not turn out to be BPD or an alcoholic.  Trust me... . I make no excuses for that bit$%.  Her behavior was premeditated, calculated, she knew it was wrong.  My point is I don't care if she's sick... . I'm tired of "people " labeling someone sick to validate crappy, hurtful, unconscionable behavior.  I've been through WAY to much to have this type of "bad" person define the rest of my life.  My ex hasn't/isn't missin an effen beat as well... . she know exactly what she is doing... . she is not tore up by her behavior... . she just continues to destroy... . but it ain't gonna be me!

[fromheeltoheal]

My understanding is the disorder is a personality disorder, and does not have an organic or biological cause; it's the way they're wired due to early childhood experiences, they went through the development process differently.

But some are intelligent, mine certainly was, and after you've been living on this rock for decades, you get a pretty good idea of what works and what doesn't, as you respond to situations based on your model of the world.  My ex was fully aware of the sht she pulled, but had no clue what the underlying motivation was, or that other people saw the world differently.  Mine had to be the most awesome woman on the planet or complete scum in her own head, black or white thinking, so awesome won most of the time, which she also used as justification for the trail of wreckage.  But I know there were plenty of times when she was alone at night that it felt like the world was against her and she was worthless scum, and I wouldn't wish that hell on anyone.  Just don't get any on ya.

[confetti]

My understanding is the disorder is a personality disorder, and does not have an organic or biological cause; it's the way they're wired due to early childhood experiences, they went through the development process differently.

But some are intelligent, mine certainly was, and after you've been living on this rock for decades, you get a pretty good idea of what works and what doesn't, as you respond to situations based on your model of the world.  My ex was fully aware of the sht she pulled, but had no clue what the underlying motivation was, or that other people saw the world differently.  Mine had to be the most awesome woman on the planet or complete scum in her own head, black or white thinking, so awesome won most of the time, which she also used as justification for the trail of wreckage.  But I know there were plenty of times when she was alone at night that it felt like the world was against her and she was worthless scum, and I wouldn't wish that hell on anyone.  Just don't get any on ya.

Isn't that a little bit of a ironic thinking... .

Intelligence does not at all mean a person is aware nor of rational thinking.

The shame she feels all together is not specific toward you (set to personal). It's a pool, a giant collection of the things that have accumulated over time. When she realizes she's hurt you, it bubbles up in the same cauldron.

[Clearmind]

Yes... . after tons of research on how we humans are wired, I was amazed to find out that if people with BPD/NPD or the so-called Cluster B personality disorders hurtful, manipulative, deceitful, lying, cheating behaviors stem from being in the survival mode, then so many things make sense.  The cerebral part of the brain is the rational part of the brain... . the thinking/analytical, the right from wrong, the part of the brain that separates us from the rest of the animals on the planet.  The next level down is the limbic part of the brain that mainly controls basic emotions like fear, happiness etc.  These two struggle for power constantly.  Apparently, when someone has emotional trauma in their life as I understand that is the cause of these Cluster B type disorders, (sexual trauma as a child, returning veterans from war PTSD), the limbic part of the brain takes control for the most part.  This part of the brain easily will drive behaviors to the instinctual/survival part of the brain (reptilian)... . thus animalistic, irrational, illogical behavior.  My exBPD/NPD could go from the cutsy, sexy, soft spoken woman to an enraged animal when triggered to survive!  She literally became an animal... . operating from the part of the brain which oddly enough is called the reptilian part of the brain so named because it is that part which is the most primitive... . like any other animal on the planet. Knowing this kind of scares me to know this is the person I was with.  She was really scary when driven to this part of her thinking... . physically abusive, emotionally abusive... . down right mean!  It is my opinion only after this exhaustive research that there is no known cure for the disorder... . at best, when someone is diagnosed, they agree they need help and get it, they can somewhat control triggering the limbic brain from constantly going into the survival mode.

With all that said... . it is unfortunate that we were all taken in by someone with this disorder.  Like I've said before in other posts, for me, I make no excuse for this disorder... . their behavior is unconscionable, wrong, hurtful etc.  There is no cure except for yourself... . you have the power to heal, grow, move on, and truly find a caring, loving, nurturing relationship... . they DO NOT and CANNOT!  Save yourself... . work hard at detaching from this truly animalistic person! (I know!... . through no fault of their own but it makes no difference why or how... . just that they are what they are!  Never forget it!).  

Hope you don't mind if we balance this out a bit. This is a very simplistic explanation for something that is quite complex. The brain is complex and is responsible for emotions and sorting of facts.

Hippocampus – long term memories, part of the brain records facts (contextual memory).

Limbic - "emotional brain" (Amygdala - emotion, learning and memory) - stimulates the hippocampus to remember many details surrounding a situation or event.

As you touched on - this analogy is not solely for describing Cluster B PD’s. Anyone who has had a traumatic childhood – children of alcoholics, sexual abuse victims etc can have a distorted reality of where emotions (Limbic) don’t equal facts (Hippocampus). It can cause twisted thinking and poor coping skills.

We are not taken in by a person with this disorder – we chose it – we chose it because of our own personal issues. Don’t look outside for the answers within.

[flynavy]

Clearmind... . do you agree that there is no cure for persons with BPD/NPD/ Cluster B personality disorders.  Being judgmental is normal based on our own experiences... . some call it bias... . prejudice... . whatever... . it is reality for the perceiver!  I did not choose to be with my ex because of my own personal issues... . I chose her because first and foremost I was attracted to her because I found her to be very attractive, sexy, charming woman.  When we made contact, I was honest and forthright with my very personal remarks to her not because of my personal issues... . but because I found her attractive and wanted to get to know the real person... . she was not!  I was honest because i wanted to have a nurturing relationship like I had for 32 years... . she was not motivated by the same as we all know!  So I may have misspoke... . sorry... . we were not taken in... . we/I chose to make contact... . if my childhood as an adult child of an alcoholic, tough upbringing, taught me to be an honest, loving, caring individual who longs to share his life with a similar person... . then OK... . I guess my personal issues in my life affect my choices to find the same person to share my life with... . I was honest... . she was NOT!  It is incredibly naive to think... . knowing what we know about this disorder, particularly the deceitful, manipulative, lying, behaviors they use to "reel" unsuspecting honest people in, that we were not taken in.  Yes, we initially chose to initiate the process of getting to know someone we are attracted to but they chose to use manipulative, deceitful tactics to ensure their prey was there for the taking... . whenever they wanted... . however they wanted!

[Murbay]

I do see both sides of this debate.

Clearmind is right that we did choose this and for people like me, although things didn't add up from the start, I pushed aside the red flags. Looking back over old e-mails, my ex wasn't deceitful in the sense that she did talk about her past experiences but not to the full extent they became known. I honestly can't say whether she knew or not that she had BPD/NPD but she was honest in telling me that her previous relationships ended because she ran and that this time things were different. I do think she was being honest at the very beginning and I despite knowing some of these things I chose to enter the relationship.

In some aspects, I do think she was very aware because she tried to put that label on me so she was very aware. I also had issues of my own from my past which I was very open with right from the beginning. The worst part was having those issues used against me and manipulated in such a way that I actually believed I was the issue in our relationship and was doing everything I possibly could to make it work while she sat back and watched. I always fell just short of the mark, everything was "almost" good enough. It also makes me sad, because if she knew and was open about it from the start, things would have been very much different. I wouldn't have had to have doubts or see hidden red flags, instead I would have known completely what I was getting in to and worked with her to make sure we were both in a good place.

In flynavys case, he fell for someone he was attracted to, that hid that other side of them until he was involved. That part is unfair and very selfish because flynavy put himself on the line, was open and honest about his past and she used that to get what she needed rather than be honest and decide that things wouldn't work out. I think much of this post is about processing the anger, hurt and frustrations. The things that for most of us, we couldn't do in our relationships.

It is perfectly fine to be angry at somebody who has hurt us, but also back to what clearmind is also saying, we need to look at ourselves as to why we feel this way and that is an advantage we have.

[Mr Bean]

I feel like i'm a prey. When BPD woman is out and looking for a prey, chances is we will become her prey. Some of my friends said that my ex is older and has a lot of experiences, as i am 7 years younger. I never told them she might have BPD traits. Omg, with my ex, when you become a target of her prey, you will lose. Perhaps she mirrors people best. She treated me like a king, gave me a lot of compliments and praises. Imagine, we were in long distance relationship and our communications were probably instant messenger and phone. But i still felt like a king. Imagine if we were not. Its no wonder a lot people here are feeling hard to let go even if they abused us.

There was also a red flag. Her ex didnt marry her 3 weeks before the day. He ran away. She told me as if she was the victim which i believed her. Now i understand why he didnt marry her.

[Clearmind]

If you feel like prey - you are also negating your role as an adult and particpator in this relationship.

Clearmind... . do you agree that there is no cure for persons with BPD/NPD/ Cluster B personality disorders. 

No I believe that pwBPD can recover. Oceanheart is a member here who has made wonderful contributions to the board. Stef’s husband on the Staying Board is also recovered.

One of the biggest challenges with recovery is admitting they need help. Denial can keep pwBPDs from seeking the diagnoses and treatment they require. Partners of pwBPD play a role – they also need to take a step back, contribute to the relationship by “stopping the bleeding” by breaking the cycle of conflict and healing from their own issues which may or may not involve trauma and abandonment issues.

Being judgmental is normal based on our own experiences... . some call it bias... . prejudice... . whatever... . it is reality for the perceiver!  I did not choose to be with my ex because of my own personal issues... . I chose her because first and foremost I was attracted to her because I found her to be very attractive, sexy, charming woman. 

OK these are wonderful things for a partner to have. What about trust, respect, compatibility in other areas of finance, moral, ethics, wanting family.

Attraction and sexual draw are not a precursor to a healthy long relationship. This is instant attraction – great for an instant not great for a long lasting r.s.

if my childhood as an adult child of an alcoholic, tough upbringing, taught me to be an honest, loving, caring individual who longs to share his life with a similar person... . then OK... . I guess my personal issues in my life affect my choices to find the same person to share my life with... . I was honest... . she was NOT!

At what point did you realize this? Surely not at the end of the r/s. There were red flags throughout we ignore.

An alcoholic parent has a huge bearing on a child. I’m a child of an alcoholic. I know the damage it has caused. I sought out high drama relationships because it was reminiscent of my childhood. Did I recognize it has high drama – to an extent I did however that feeling of being idealized was something I had longed for my entire life.

It is incredibly naive to think... . knowing what we know about this disorder, particularly the deceitful, manipulative, lying, behaviors they use to "reel" unsuspecting honest people in, that we were not taken in. 

No such thing as reeling in or sucking in my friend. Move away from this victim mentality that you were taken for a ride. You are an adult with adult privileges – you get to choose. And for whatever reason you chose to stay in this relationship for as long as you did.

Yes, we initially chose to initiate the process of getting to know someone we are attracted to but they chose to use manipulative, deceitful tactics to ensure their prey was there for the taking... . whenever they wanted... . however they wanted!

It’s a way of life – their actions are not predatory. BPD is steeped in shame and self blame and self loathing – they don’t pass a thought at how it affects you because they hurt so so very badly.

Move away from blaming your ex. It’s convenient because it stops you from hurting and stops you turning the focus on you – it’s a way of masking our own guilt and shame for not being about to caretake. Maybe you are not ready for this yet – maybe you are. However talking from experience and plenty of therapy – our role is very clear.

I no longer blame my ex.

[flynavy]

Good Morning clearmind... . I agree with you regarding as an ACOA, I have always longed for someone idealizing me... . I was always told by my father I would never amount to anything... . thus I chose to go to college to get into medical school... . but redirected towards being a US Navy carrier pilot... . that surely would show everyone... . even Dad! 

What I do not agree with is the "reelin in process".  Yes I chose... . but the idealization was intoxicating... . she knew this... . and used manipulative/deceitful behavior to accomplish this, so I chose based on her dishonest representation of herself.

Looking inside... . I was extremely vulnerable... . my wife died just 8 months prior to initiating this relationship... . maybe too soon?... . maybe it was just what i needed.  I actually thought what if I was using her to transition from my pain and my survival mode to the living mode.  It is a possibility... . what if I never was going to marry her... . just used her to keep her close while I healed... . my therapist thinks not, we actually talked at great length about it. 

How quickly we all forget the healing process... . I remember how devastated with grief I was after my wife's death... . then the anger (at God... . at myself... . ) but I eventually accepted the situation and began to realize how truly fortunate I was that she chose me to be her husband, best friend, lover and father to our children.

Same with this loss... . because it is a loss... . I was all in... . don't matter why it can't work!... . I know I need to get over the anger to get to acceptance and move on... . as my wife would say lovingly... . OK... . your polish... . sometimes you need to get hit square in the face with what you need to do several times before you get it... . I'm trying!... . I'm working at it hard!   

[flynavy]

clearmind... . forgot... . regarding "prey"... . my point was I did not feel like prey... . I was saying that if they are truly hurting and trying to survive than the analogy of she viewing me as prey to fill her need for temporary emotional relief from the pain is valid... .

[recoil]

I can understand feeling like prey.

When I'm fishing or crabbing, I use bait to catch my prey.  To me, this is the idealization phase in a relationship with someone with BPD.  

You are lured into a relationship that isn't real.  How would you know it's not real?  My ex didn't mirror me completely.  In fact, looking back, I can only think of very small, inconsequential things she mirrored in the very beginning.  It wasn't until we moved in together that the red flags really started to surface.  By then, I was on the hook.  I should also note the relationship wasn't "too perfect" during this phase either.  There were moments of doubt that I ignored, as I would with any new relationship.  It takes time for people to get to know each other.

My ex also lured me into the relationship with her looks.  Some of her earliest texts were of her in a bikini.  I thought this a little premature but I was a widower.  I'll give myself a pass here.  If that's not an enticing lure under the circumstances, I don't know what is.  Bravo to her.

I'm not saying she's a lion, mantis or black widow.  But I do know she's self-aware enough to know relationships aren't her thing -- so why does she keep doing it?  Einstein's theory of crazitivity?  

She has "Possibly Maybe" tattooed on her body.  Read the lyrics to that song.  It should be the BPD theme song.

I don't think she "preys" maliciously though.  I think she's seeking "love" but isn't emotionally equipped to handle it.  She finds it, it goes wrong, it's their fault -- rinse, repeat.

Deep down though, I know she knows the problem is her.  

[Changed4safety]

I never, ever go a sense of calculated malice from my ex.  Not even when he was doing the worst things.  He sometimes seemed as baffled as to why he did things that he knew would hurt me as I was.  But he did them, intentionally, even if he didn't understand what was driving him to sabotage, and there was fallout.  In the end, he tried so hard and really did clean up his act, but too much damage was done.  I couldn't stay with someone I couldn't trust to be faithful, and especially not with someone who had choked me three times. 

Even predators in the wild don't think "aha, there's a gazelle, I shall murder it brutally and feast upon its flesh, leaving its children to starve, haha!"  They need food, they see what they recognize as food, and they do what instinct drives them to do in order to eat.  That's a really hard thing to get your mind around.  I'm sure not all BPDs are this way--everyone's an individual, even if the sickness does seem to have classic manifestations.  I don't think mine ever thought gleefully about hurting me, or even two steps down the road that it was betrayal and it would hurt me if I found out (which I always did, one way or another).  THAT was why I couldn't stay.  Because it was so unpredictable and irrational. 

[Clearmind]

What I do not agree with is the "reelin in process".  Yes I chose... . but the idealization was intoxicating... . she knew this... . and used manipulative/deceitful behavior to accomplish this, so I chose based on her dishonest representation of herself. 

Did she?

You idealized one another! She was mirroring you! You were mirroring her - it was a dance for two.

No one can reel you in without your permission. Step outside the thinking that she was to blame and manipulated you - look at why you relished in the idea of being idealised instead of seeing it as a  .

You enjoyed being idealized as much as she did - you both felt whole/at peace/loved/needed - this type of "love" is not sustainable and it was inevitably likely to fall apart. You cannot put one another on a pedestal for any length of time and maintain it. Its not real, its an illusion for you both.

If you continue to view her as manipulative and deceitful you will not detach - you are hanging onto the ideas of what she did to you rather than concentrating on why you put you put up with it. This is the difference between feeling victimized and thriving. To thrive we must look at our role. This is your choice.

Look over to the right ---> where are you on the Detachment scale? Take the focus off her and what did and didn't do to make you happy.

You will see it in time.

[fromheeltoheal]

I never, ever go a sense of calculated malice from my ex.  Not even when he was doing the worst things.  He sometimes seemed as baffled as to why he did things that he knew would hurt me as I was.  But he did them, intentionally, even if he didn't understand what was driving him to sabotage, and there was fallout. 

Exactly.  She knew exactly what she was doing and it was intentional, but she had no awareness of why, or the foresight to predict the fallout, she was just trying to survive best she knew how.  Ugly disorder.

I'm sure not all BPDs are this way--everyone's an individual, even if the sickness does seem to have classic manifestations.  I don't think mine ever thought gleefully about hurting me, or even two steps down the road that it was betrayal and it would hurt me if I found out (which I always did, one way or another).  THAT was why I couldn't stay.  Because it was so unpredictable and irrational.

Yes, everyone is different, but traits are common enough to fuel this website, for example.  Mine didn't get gleeful either, in fact she liked to say 'people are ugly', and she was including herself.  Hard to imagine living like that, I just know I don't want to.

[Conundrum]

I have trouble relating to many of the point of views on this thread. I'm not invalidating those POV's at all. I just perceive things quite differently. I don't understand why anyone would expect people who lack object constancy to conform to allegedly mainstream sentimental attachments. That's not the way that it works for them. You can bang your head against the wall wishing it was so, but it's similar to that feeling when you're still in the running for the powerball. Imagining, how great it would be to win.

You  have to transcend suffering to maintain a relationship with a pwBPD. Stop taking everything they say and do so seriously. They might love you 4 out of 7 days a week. That's a majority . It's dialectical opposites--which can be either maddening and amazing in its own way. The same person who exhibits eccentric, sometimes hurtful coping tools, can still exhibit a deep abiding attachment to you--thesis, antithesis, synthesis. The clashing of different minds, in opposition and unison, simultaneously. Something is synthesized from all of this.

I'm sorry that so many are bitter and hurt. I've felt that way too at times, but these are extraordinarily interesting people who have elaborately different circuitry than most. We get so caught up in our hurts and alleged victimization that we mentally cut them out of our lives, and subsequently castigate them for being themselves. I've maintained a relationship and friendship with my BPD lover and friend for over 7 years. Are we all over the place in the manner that we attach, no doubt. Does it conform to the norm, absolutely not. Has it been unique, definitely. Think of them as kaleidoscope's, shifting colors reflecting patterns and light. Dialectical tension will always be present in a relationship with a pwBPD. Staying, leaving, and undecided all coexisting within the union. BUT, when you acknowledge that suffering is caused by desire, and let go of that desire--often the world is born anew, and you are able to perceive beauty in letting things be.

[fromheeltoheal]

Yes conundrum, if you can detach and look at a BPD existentially, they would make fascinating studies in human behavior.  For me it was the bait and switch; you're right that what we call "reality" is really just group consensus, and I was looking for someone who was capable of true intimacy, deep emotional connection, and love as a sustainable long-term state of being.  She presented herself that way for a while, and I was hooked, and once she got triggered and the other side showed up, it was a complete surprise and completely unacceptable.

Instead of a close monogamous relationship built on mutual trust and respect, I got infidelity, lack of trust, abuse and devaluation, literally out of nowhere.  Being angry is part of the healing process, but you're right, blaming and playing victim are ways to get stuck.  The choices appear to be detach emotionally and just enjoy the fireworks of the disorder, or get the hell out with lessons learned, on the way to a healthy relationship.

[flynavy]

Clearmind... . thanks... . this really hit home for me today from your post... .


You idealized one another! She was mirroring you! You were mirroring her - it was a dance for two.

No one can reel you in without your permission. Step outside the thinking that she was to blame and manipulated you - look at why you relished in the idea of being idealised instead of seeing it as a .

You enjoyed being idealized as much as she did - you both felt whole/at peace/loved/needed - this type of "love" is not sustainable and it was inevitably likely to fall apart. You cannot put one another on a pedestal for any length of time and maintain it. Its not real, its an illusion for you both.

If you continue to view her as manipulative and deceitful you will not detach - you are hanging onto the ideas of what she did to you rather than concentrating on why you put you put up with it. This is the difference between feeling victimized and thriving. To thrive we must look at our role. This is your choice.

[Conundrum]

She presented herself that way for a while, and I was hooked, and once she got triggered and the other side showed up, it was a complete surprise and completely unacceptable.

Instead of a close monogamous relationship built on mutual trust and respect, I got infidelity, lack of trust, abuse and devaluation, literally out of nowhere. 

I really feel for you when you find yourself in that type of situation. When it comes as a total surprise and there is no forewarning. I know it's cold comfort but unfortunately those same actions occur out of the blue in allegedly normal relationships too. Whether a pwBPD is less liable is entirely subjective. In my situation, neither one of us knew that she had BPD when we met, but it was abundantly clear that she was a beautiful mess. Deep down, I had never really banked on her being able to pull off being my wife, or even a lifelong consistent SO--consequently by the time that I let go of that desire it felt like a relief. I have little interest in hating on her. She has so few stable friends as it is.     

[confetti]

She presented herself that way for a while, and I was hooked, and once she got triggered and the other side showed up, it was a complete surprise and completely unacceptable.

Instead of a close monogamous relationship built on mutual trust and respect, I got infidelity, lack of trust, abuse and devaluation, literally out of nowhere. 

I really feel for you when you find yourself in that type of situation. When it comes as a total surprise and there is no forewarning. I know it's cold comfort but unfortunately those same actions occur out of the blue in allegedly normal relationships too. Whether a pwBPD is less liable is entirely subjective. In my situation, neither one of us knew that she had BPD when we met, but it was abundantly clear that she was a beautiful mess. Deep down, I had never really banked on her being able to pull off being my wife, or even a lifelong consistent SO--consequently by the time that I let go of that desire it felt like a relief. I have little interest in hating on her. She has so few stable friends as it is.     

Your words have been very relieving... . I felt so much tension when this thread started.

I do not argue the feelings of a non, but to coldly shun some of us as a non-person... . ironically enough some of the people on L3 say that their BPD/NPD others treated them like a non-person.

There is a sharp, searing pain that follows these relationships but there is no less a chance for them to see the light if they choose to eventually. Probably not so much for healing for NPD... . but BPD very much so.

------

Having a PD doesn't mean you live in candyland sucking on sweets all day it is quite tormenting x_x

[recoil]

I'm sorry that so many are bitter and hurt. I've felt that way too at times, but these are extraordinarily interesting people who have elaborately different circuitry than most. We get so caught up in our hurts and alleged victimization that we mentally cut them out of our lives, and subsequently castigate them for being themselves. I've maintained a relationship and friendship with my BPD lover and friend for over 7 years. Are we all over the place in the manner that we attach, no doubt. Does it conform to the norm, absolutely not. Has it been unique, definitely. Think of them as kaleidoscope's, shifting colors reflecting patterns and light. Dialectical tension will always be present in a relationship with a pwBPD. Staying, leaving, and undecided all coexisting within the union. BUT, when you acknowledge that suffering is caused by desire, and let go of that desire--often the world is born anew, and you are able to perceive beauty in letting things be.

This is quite beautiful.  I like the idea of accepting her exactly as she is, even flawed.  I wonder if she would afford me the same luxury, or would it be yet another double-standard?  Regardless, your words have actually tempered some of my recent anger towards her.  I actually feel better.

Thank you.

[fromheeltoheal]

I'm sorry that so many are bitter and hurt. I've felt that way too at times, but these are extraordinarily interesting people who have elaborately different circuitry than most. We get so caught up in our hurts and alleged victimization that we mentally cut them out of our lives, and subsequently castigate them for being themselves. I've maintained a relationship and friendship with my BPD lover and friend for over 7 years. Are we all over the place in the manner that we attach, no doubt. Does it conform to the norm, absolutely not. Has it been unique, definitely. Think of them as kaleidoscope's, shifting colors reflecting patterns and light. Dialectical tension will always be present in a relationship with a pwBPD. Staying, leaving, and undecided all coexisting within the union. BUT, when you acknowledge that suffering is caused by desire, and let go of that desire--often the world is born anew, and you are able to perceive beauty in letting things be.

This is quite beautiful.  I like the idea of accepting her exactly as she is, even flawed.  I wonder if she would afford me the same luxury, or would it be yet another double-standard?  Regardless, your words have actually tempered some of my recent anger towards her.  I actually feel better.

Thank you.

Yes, I like it too, thanks conundrum.  I'm curious, have you been able to maintain healthy boundaries with your pwBPD?  I wasn't, and realize that's my issue, and the abuse I allowed makes it impossible to maintain any kind of relationship with her, and I never got to a place where there was no desire, although I do love her, have a great deal of sympathy for her, and find her very interesting and unique.