Under Investigation

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

Married 4 1/2 years, together for 7. Separated since January, one 3 year old son.

Last night I had a visit from a DCF investigator. The allegation was that I "shook my son and shoved him into a door where he hits his head and that our son hasn't been acting normally" .

The events that led up to that were when she had e-mailed me a few days ago telling me "we need to talk". When I called she said that she wanted us to go back to counseling for our son's sake. She then asked me if I'd gone to my therapist for my anger issues (projecting). I told her that my anger issues have been find and I've been utilizing other forms of therapy. I told her I'll go, but separate appointments first. She texted me a while later telling me she'd make the appointment for me so I could go first. What the heck? She's trying to railroad me into receiving something I chose not to have; I even got discharged a month after the separation for lack of necessity. She said that she'd go to the second appointment. I put my foot down on the one. She called my therapist and got referred to a family/child therapist who specializes in the separate household paradigm.

We went to that appointment Monday. I was fine going to a different therapist together. She thought everything seemed fine and she saw no red flags. My STBX even mentioned that she'd spoken to our son's teachers and they though he was fine; no acting out or other signs of issues in the home. I bit my tongue when she said that the marriage failed because I wan't ready to be a parent. Not mentioning that I spent a significantly larger amount of time at home with my son and bit my tongue when she'd go out til the wee hours on weekday nights for her "alone" time. More projecting... .

Then I got the knock on the door. I can tell be the wording of the complaint where it came from. She likes to take things my son says and turn then into violent acts committed by me. "he says you did this, he says you did that". Like he knows what he's saying. This was a new low for her and eliminated all hopes of an "amicable" divorce. Luckily I keep very thorough and accurate records on my computer as to when I have him, what we do, who he comes into contact with, etc. I also have another journal with all of her antics; previous false accusations since a 3 year old is such an accurate and reliable source of information. I was pretty upset when the investigator arrived, but she was pretty cool and set me at ease - she said it often happens and she's oriented more towards disproving allegations because they're so often false.

I'm not going to give the STBX the satisfaction of even reacting to last night. I could let her know I'm pissed but I know that anything I say will be considered retaliatory and not really help. I'm wondering if anyone else had been in similar situations. I know my record keeping will save my ass and I'm glad I kept up with it!

[lockedout]

Married 4 1/2 years, together for 7. Separated since January, one 3 year old son.

Last night I had a visit from a DCF investigator. The allegation was that I "shook my son and shoved him into a door where he hits his head and that our son hasn't been acting normally" .

The events that led up to that were when she had e-mailed me a few days ago telling me "we need to talk". When I called she said that she wanted us to go back to counseling for our son's sake. She then asked me if I'd gone to my therapist for my anger issues (projecting). I told her that my anger issues have been find and I've been utilizing other forms of therapy. I told her I'll go, but separate appointments first. She texted me a while later telling me she'd make the appointment for me so I could go first. What the heck? She's trying to railroad me into receiving something I chose not to have; I even got discharged a month after the separation for lack of necessity. She said that she'd go to the second appointment. I put my foot down on the one. She called my therapist and got referred to a family/child therapist who specializes in the separate household paradigm.

We went to that appointment Monday. I was fine going to a different therapist together. She thought everything seemed fine and she saw no red flags. My STBX even mentioned that she'd spoken to our son's teachers and they though he was fine; no acting out or other signs of issues in the home. I bit my tongue when she said that the marriage failed because I wan't ready to be a parent. Not mentioning that I spent a significantly larger amount of time at home with my son and bit my tongue when she'd go out til the wee hours on weekday nights for her "alone" time. More projecting... .

Then I got the knock on the door. I can tell be the wording of the complaint where it came from. She likes to take things my son says and turn then into violent acts committed by me. "he says you did this, he says you did that". Like he knows what he's saying. This was a new low for her and eliminated all hopes of an "amicable" divorce. Luckily I keep very thorough and accurate records on my computer as to when I have him, what we do, who he comes into contact with, etc. I also have another journal with all of her antics; previous false accusations since a 3 year old is such an accurate and reliable source of information. I was pretty upset when the investigator arrived, but she was pretty cool and set me at ease - she said it often happens and she's oriented more towards disproving allegations because they're so often false.

I'm not going to give the STBX the satisfaction of even reacting to last night. I could let her know I'm pissed but I know that anything I say will be considered retaliatory and not really help. I'm wondering if anyone else had been in similar situations. I know my record keeping will save my ass and I'm glad I kept up with it!

[marbleloser]

" I could let her know I'm pissed but I know that anything I say will be considered retaliatory and not really help. I'm wondering if anyone else had been in similar situations. I know my record keeping will save my ass and I'm glad I kept up with it!"

Good job! This is where documentation comes into play.Don't get lulled into trusting the DCF worker.It's her job to get you to trust her.Digitally record every conversation you have with her.She'll be used in court for 3rd party testimony and can change in an instant.If she says,"lockedout admitted to be a little rough with the child at times",you can counter with "Your honor,no I didn't.Here's the audio from that day."

You're ahead of the game by documenting so far.Stay that way.

[broken3]

photo and record everything.

I smell false abuse allegations coming.

Be prepared.

Some of us here have been through the same if not alot worse.

[motherof1yearold]

Sorry to hear about the incident,

but kudos to you for keeping calm and documenting! And believe me , you aren't alone, I'd be surprised if there were any NONS on here who HAVEN'T been accused ! 

Something similar happened to me, in my case he was just trying to rattle my cage over something he actually did to our kid. Right now just be aware that you technically have an 'open case' , and there will be more visits to 'check on' the boy . Also be prepared for her to bring it up in court, even know you will be disproved they don't mark it as a 'false allegation' - they just mark it as 'no abuse founded'. I know this first hand, so just trying to give you an idea. I'm sorry about all this! It sure is frustrating, especially all the projection (yuck)

[ForeverDad]

Married 4 1/2 years, together for 7. Separated since January, one 3 year old son.

My situation was similar, separated when son was 3 years old and his mother was paranoid about abusers and saw 'probable' abusers everywhere - and after driving away relatives and most friends she eventually saw me as one too.

Last night I had a visit from a DCF investigator. The allegation was that I "shook my son and shoved him into a door where he hits his head and that our son hasn't been acting normally".

Then I got the knock on the door. I can tell by the wording of the complaint where it came from... . This was a new low for her and eliminated all hopes of an "amicable" divorce.

Be prepared for future allegations to be slightly different each time.  In my experience, if one claim doesn't work, the pwBPD will try another, especially when triggered or jsut before some hearing or other even where the ex wants to have some papers to wave around proclaiming victimhood or targethood.  After separation, my ex's first complaint was merely that I had taken our child to the park to ride bikes and I had let him tip the bike (at a virtual standstill) and he ended up with his arm in a cast.  By about four months later she had worked it up to sexual child abuse allegations.  When even that didn't succeed in making me go away or get taken away, she tried other perversions.

I agree with MotherOf1YearOld, the agencies are unlikely to declare you "innocent".  While they could use the phrase "unfounded", the most common phrase used is "unsubstantiated" which doesn't disarm the allegation.

For example, I recall the time after an exchange my son, then about 5 years old, wanted to show me a bruise on his leg.  After the appropriate oohs and aahs I asked him how he got it.  He said he didn't remember then said maybe it was when he was on the monkey bars at a park with his mother.  Guess what?  I soon got an invite from CPS to come in for an interview.  Turned out she had taken him to the hospital and somehow got him to say I had raged at him and beat him with my fists on his shins.  Yeah, ridiculous.  Even the nurse wrote in the hospital records that his bruises were normal for an active child his age, but since he echoed ex's coaching, the case was passed on to CPS.  (I thereafter got him a copy of the Clifford the Big Red Dog storybook "T-Bone Tells the Truth".  Amazing, he was so clueless he didn't know what lying and truth were, a common problem with children of a pwBPD who constantly rewrites history.)  I played them the recordings.  I said if I had done it then why would he want to show me and why would he say, without any stress, it happened elsewhere?  I added that she'd just lost the pediatrician - she had raged at the staff and the doc Withdrew Services and probably she was trying to invent something to make me look worse than her.  Well, they said they'd already interviewed him at school, a supposedly neutral place, and he didn't indicate anything so they were already prepared to drop it.  I asked for a letter - it wasn't my first contact with CPS but until then everything had always been verbal and Black Box.  It took a month, but eventually I got a letter stating "unsubstantiated" - but child at elevated risk.  They knew it was false but they wouldn't put it on paper.

I'm not going to give the STBX the satisfaction of even reacting to last night. I could let her know I'm pissed but I know that anything I say will be considered retaliatory and not really help.

You can't reason with unreason.  She's not listening.  And what she does hear she's likely to twist into something else entirely.  In most cases, especially if you've already separated, the less said, the better.  All you should need to discuss are needed parenting issues and exchange details, and emotional undertones or judgments left out.  Anything more will trigger her or tempt her to twist it into something unrecognizable.

I know my record keeping will save my ass and I'm glad I kept up with it!

Documenting and recording - I call it my insurance, my sleep aid and also my Get Out Of Jail card.

Sadly, not much else.  Yes, eventually the courts might figure it out, though they are masters at making minimal baby step corrections.  Until then... . The person behaving poorly seldom gets consequences and the person behaving well seldom gets credit.

[momtara]

Good job - keep doing what you're doing.  Keep calm.  It is frustrating when your chances of an amicable divorce get  scuttled like this.  It's like they have two sides, and they really can't control the bad one, even with the good one.  Such a shame.

[lockedout]

I didn't think to record her, but future encounters will be. I'm not too worried about this one - she got 20 pages of my notes (pulled them up on word, plugged in the printed, and gave her copies right off the press)which don't paint momsie in a very favorable light. It starts with her changing the locks right after I moved out followed shortly by a mystery man in a Mustang rolling into my garage after she "forgot" to mention I was supposed to drop him off with him elsewhere. Right in front of me and my sone who was crying when he couldn't understand why I couldn't let him in the house so he could go to bed. She has at least a dozen people with whom she can get in touch with to vouch for me. My notes contain other instances of her implicating me in things he said to her and how I had to clarify more than once that it didn't happen. She raised an eyebrow when I made a mention of BPD, emotional reasoning and how she started crying at the therapy appointment when I said I didn't see us getting back together happening.

In Florida there are two things in my favor: it takes a LOT to take a child away and it's a state where you're allowed to discipline your child as long as you don't leave marks or use an object. I came clean on smacking the bottom of his foot a couple of time when he was kicking me while changing a diaper. She was the one to tell me that there's nothing wrong with that.

I'm fine with the "unsubstantiated" part. These agencies get burned all the time by people who BS their way through the process; too much liability to mark things as "false". I know they keep a permanent record of it and hope when they review this one in future investigations. I made it very clear the I have nothing to hide. They're spread pretty thin and they aren't going to set up camp for someone who is cooperative and keeps coming clean.

The ex also didn't consider something else. The investigation (if they do it to the fullest) will require the investigator to approach people we both know. Of course it'll be my fault, but they'll be made privy to her making a false report and engaging in defamatory tactics.

[livednlearned]

The events that led up to that were when she had e-mailed me a few days ago telling me "we need to talk". When I called she said that she wanted us to go back to counseling for our son's sake.

There's no need to call her back or talk to her on the phone. My mantra is: if you can't document it, don't do it.

I bit my tongue when she said that the marriage failed because I wan't ready to be a parent. Not mentioning that I spent a significantly larger amount of time at home with my son and bit my tongue when she'd go out til the wee hours on weekday nights for her "alone" time. More projecting... .

Why bite your tongue? You have to set the record straight, calmly and assertively. Your ex is going to engage in alienation, and you need to get your tactics sharp and ready. Read Divorce Poison 10 times and get ahead of her by reading up on her techniques. They're all in there, with clear instructions on how to phrase your responses, and why it's so necessary.

[lockedout]

-I'm pretty good at cutting off the conversation once I sense that it's getting the least bit hot. I normally keep them very brief and to the point.

-When she said that I didn't want to give the counselor anything that could reflect poorly on me. Does the ex deserve for me to light up the room when she pins the relationship issues on me? Hell yes, but only if I still care about the relationship. I acknowledged her remarks without confirming or denying anything and jumped right on to the topic at hand. I took the high road because we were there for our son only and I didn't want to turn it into a conflict. I made sure the counselor made it on the investigator's contact list.

I've kept my silence on all of her antics since the separation. I've had family question me about what's going on and I've really covered for her. I could have easily called up "our friends", even her family and vented on them. I'm in the process of mitigating financial liabilities and... . building a track record on the time-sharing arrangement (there's no such thing as "custody" in FL). When I'm ready to proceed with the divorce, the mere threat of breaking my silence will hopefully be enough to deter her from playing hardball. Needless to say, I didn't want to reveal any of my cards in the therapist's office. She has no idea what I may go telling people.

[motherof1yearold]

lockedout,

I'm not sure what you mean by there is no such thing as custody in Florida, but I live in Florida and basically the first person to physically take the child and withhold him from the other gets the upper hand. Unfortunately I wasn't the one who did that. I don't know if anyone has recommended this yet, but certainly by the book "splitting- protecting yourself while divorcing borderline/ narcissistic PD" amazing book and great life saver in court.



Judging by your last posts I am seeing that you are taking on the passive route, but just remember in a high conflict case like you may be entering, that is not a good idea to be passive. There is a difference between taking the high road and being passive. Also, you have no obligation to cover for her, there is nothing wrong with keeping a divorce private but certainly don't cover for her when it comes down to the child. believe me, a pwBPD would not do the same for you. 

[marbleloser]

""splitting- protecting yourself while divorcing borderline/ narcissistic PD" amazing book and great life saver in court. "

Recommend highly as well.

[Matt]

"Splitting" is excellent, as Marble says.  Also ":)ivorce Poison", about parental alienation - a big risk for you I think.

Do you have a lawyer?  And does she have experience with false accusations?

I would look at a strategy of going on offense, not staying on defense.  By "offense" I don't mean that you should make false accusations, I mean that you should look at all your options for providing appropriate consequences to the other party for making these false accusations against you.

The options may include criminal charges (it is probably a crime to make false accusations - check the law in your state);  and/or civil charges;  and/or contempt of court;  and/or slander or libel charges.

Or you might file a motion with the court, asking for a Custody Evaluator to be appointed.  Make sure it is a Ph.D. psychologist, and ask that she be directed to administer objective psych evals like the MMPI-2.  This is a way to get everything out in the open - you'll be able to tell the CE exactly what you know and let her investigate deeper than a judge ever will.

Don't take it lying down and don't be passive.  Find out what options you have and choose wisely.

[lockedout]

I read Splitting a few months ago - great book but it's probably time to go back and review.

As far as biting my tongue goes: that's for me, not her. We know how they want everyone to see them as "good" people and how their flaws make them "bad" people. I'd rather keep the threat of going public looming over her head.  I can only go public once. I'm timing for when I need it. If she doesn't fight dirty (hahaha) through the divorce, I have no urge to rehash everything to friends and family.

Passive route is almost the same. It gives her nothing to latch onto when she wants to go on the attack. The court system is biased when it comes to this anyway. When a woman does it, she "empowering herself against a monster". A guy does it, he's "manipulating the system to dominate over a helpless victim". I also have no reason to suspect any abuse on her part. I think she's over-protective and if he has any kind of injury or says stuff to her in which he has no idea what he's saying (yes, the complaint was made because he said I did these things when she asked her leading questions), there has to be a problem.

As far as false reporting goes, there's little recourse for false complaints being made. I know who made the complaint, but I can't prove who did it; they're not allowed to reveal the name of the complainant. We were discussing before how they don't label complaints as "false". If they did and there were penalties for making "false" complaints (or were they just "unfounded"?), people wouldn't make reports out of fear of legal consequences. There are plenty of actual child abuse cases that go unreported. As weird as it sounds, I tend to agree with it.

I have been to an attorney, who I'll probably hire in an advisory basis to begin with. I'm holding off on filing for one main reason: money. I wouldn't be able to sustain a legal case right now. I have a property on the market from which I'll be taking a substantial amount of cash. I'm anticipating she's going to want to fight with the worst barracuda lawyer in town on her wing. that attorney needs to get paid, but he won't once I easily out-spend her.

[lockedout]

The Custody Evaluator is a good idea - I'll probably mention that at the first sign of fireworks in the courtroom. Probably better to pay that person several hundred dollars at the start and clear my name quickly rather than pay the attorney thousands to try to disprove her assertions based on anecdotal evidence.

[ForeverDad]

I was surprised that the court didn't care about the many delays, obstructions and overall poor behaviors of my ex.  It seemed as though the court took each item separately, and discounted it if that item considered by itself wasn't seen as 'actionable'.  So court did nothing major in the two years of her temporary custody to limit her from doing virtually whatever she wished.

On the other hand, the custody evaluator considered a wide range of information, from psychological testing (MMPI2 and others), interviews and submitted documentation from agencies, incidents, etc.

I concluded that court paid attention to only the very worst of behaviors and ignored the rest.  The custody evaluator, if worth his/her salt, looked at the larger picture.  Yes, the CE was still bound to decades of prior policies and priorities, but at least mine looked at the big picture and my CE's report included reasonable conclusions and recommendations.

Note, like lawyers, judges, counselors and others, not all custody evaluators do good work.  Rather than choose one based on low quoted rates (which can skyrocket anyway) or pick a name out of a hat, seek out those with a reputation for doing a good job.

[Matt]

The Custody Evaluator is a good idea - I'll probably mention that at the first sign of fireworks in the courtroom. Probably better to pay that person several hundred dollars at the start and clear my name quickly rather than pay the attorney thousands to try to disprove her assertions based on anecdotal evidence.

Ours cost $5,000, and some cost more than that.  They take from a few weeks to several months;  sometimes even longer, if your attorney doesn't manage the CE right.

A CE is a strategy, not a response to what the other side does.  I would suggest you find out all the options and choose the best strategy, and not let the behavior of a disordered party on any given day impact your strategy much.

[lockedout]

I'm hoping thing don't get to the point of needing a custody evaluator. I'm hoping the months of shared parenting that are toroughly documented will be enough to discourage any attacks. Six months of everything being fine with every minute of it accounted for I file for divorce and suddenly become an unfit parent isn't a very stable platform.

My favorite one was today when she tried to withhold my time with him. She texted me to tell me he had a full day of school today; I pick him up for the night on his half days. She tried to argue until I told her to check the calendar. She then said he had an appointment with a play therapist at 3 (another attempt to implicate me, and din't she say just say he had a full day in school? ) and I told her I'd take him. That's when she told me DCF had been to visit her (normal part of the investigation) and told her that he should be kept away from me, but she convinced them to allow him sto see me. Another lie. DCF investigators can't advise people to withhold parental rights; they can only remove the child in a case of immediate danger. Anything beyond that, is up to a judge. I can eliminate everyone else as suspect; most of whom she suggest which included people in my family. Unreal.

[Matt]

You'll probably need a full evaluation to deal with this.  Otherwise the court is likely to assume that what she is saying might be true, and take the "safe" path by giving her primary custody.

[ForeverDad]

You can't trust everything a pwBPD may say - and depending on the issue and level of disorderedness, not anything.  Granted, maybe somewhere in there something may be true, bound to happen sometimes, but so much will be said that is slanted toward the pwBPD's perceptions, sense of entitlement, retaliation, blaming and blame shifting.

[marbleloser]

"You can't trust anything a pwBPD may say.  Granted, maybe somewhere in there something may be true, bound to happen sometimes, but so much will be said that is slanted toward the pwBPD's perceptions, sense of entitlement, retaliation, blaming and blame shifting."

Exactly! Documentation has helped me in this regard greatly.I can go back,after something is said,and see how the stories change,facts are skewed,etc.,,

[lockedout]

She actually was telling the truth about not calling - not that she's in the least bit innocent. She had taken him to the doctor where he'd apparently said that I shook him and hit his head on a door. The doctor is the one who filed the report. When I was dressing him yesterday, he started "dada shook me" and "dada hit my head on the door". The shaking was roughhousing on the beach, the door thin was when I was closing the front door with him in tow when he decided to run back inside ; he got clipped by the door. When he was saying it, it sounded like he'd already said it many times, like he was somehow prompted to it. He said this at the doctor's office and that's the basis of the whole report. I swung by the dr's office for a copy of her report.

I e-mailed the ex; since she apparently had NO participation in this (other than being informed by the Dr. that it would be reported) the he's not to be seen by that doctor ever again.

[Matt]

I e-mailed the ex; since she apparently had NO participation in this (other than being informed by the Dr. that it would be reported) the he's not to be seen by that doctor ever again.

I'm not sure that's the right strategy.  It could be portrayed as avoiding the doctor who did what she's supposed to do.

Another approach would be to talk to the doctor - show your concern - explain to her what happened - and continue to work with her - bring your son in to see her from time to time, so she knows he is OK.  Make her into a favorable or neutral influence.

[ForeverDad]

My ex took our son multiple times to the hospital for various claims.  A favorite phrase of hers was "my son told me... . "  So she tried not to out and out lie, yet of course insinuated I did whatever Mr Evil Personified claim she hadn't tried before.  What was whatever?  I better not put it in writing but at least a couple of them could have had me wearing orange jumpsuits for several years or more and afterward put on an offender list for life.  None of it ever happened and fortunately the doctors and others never saw any substance to it.  Despite what she did she retained temporary custody during the two year divorce and it was another three years before I convinced the court I should have custody.

I recall a notation in one of the hospital logs where my son said he wanted to see me more.  Bless his little heart.  She started doing that after we separated, about the time he turned 4.

It wasn't until he was in kindergarten and she had just lost the pediatrician due to her cursing and raging at the staff that she managed to get our son to parrot her claims.  (She had to find some way to make me look worse than her.)  And even then he didn't know what he was doing.  When I found out about it I searched out and bought a Clifford the Big Red Dog children's book, "T-Bone Tells the Truth".  Our poor confused son, then still living mostly with his mother, didn't know the difference between truth and, um, less than truth.

Read Splitting: Protecting Yourself While Divorcing Someone with Borderline or Narcissistic Personality Disorder by Bill Eddy and Randi Kreger.  It will save your skin.  Beware of volunteering information or too much information.  Yes, the truth will help you, but not all truths need to be mentioned, some truths can make your life and legal defense far more difficult.

[lockedout]

I can site one local case in which a father brought his son in for broken bones. After the father was arrested, charged with several felonies, the story spread all over the TV and papers, and the guy's life totally ruined, they later found out that the kid had a rare bone disorder which would cause his bones to fracture with minimal force. There' all patting each other on the back for getting this "dangerous" father brought to justice before they figured out that this kid could die from a skull fracture by whacking his head on something.

I worded the e-mail very carefully and it was short and sweet. My grounds were that I did not trust her judgment and feared that more serious medical conditions may be overlooked due to culpable negligence or some bizarre agenda. Also that I should not have to be in fear of being stripped of my parental rights every time he goes there for a runny nose because I'd been roughhousing with him. She's also not the pediatrician we chose together before he was born. I'm allowing the ex to handle it completely. If she's as "surprised" as she says she is and agrees that our son being separated from me is not is in his best interest, she'll  respect my wishes.

I'm not saying squat to the doctor. If my son was coached to say what he did (which I haven't ruled out yet because I've seen it done and as a lowly paramedic and picked up on it) and was convincing, she simply followed protocol. Otherwise, I have no respect for her and wouldn't give her the time of day. I have every right to participate in the decision as to who treats my son and I'm not going to bow down to any false accusations.