Reality of Having Fees Paid

[Free One]

When you have to go back to court to enforce custody orders, and the judge makes the other parent pay your attorney fees, what is the likely hood of actually getting that money if ex already is in debt, already doesn't pay child support (supposedly because he has no money) and already has multiple liens against his property, resulting in virtually no equity?

[ForeverDad]

There's a word for it.  Let me tell you how I heard it.  A good friend was in an expressway backup in a city known for congestion and NY drivers.  Well, One guy in an old beater had poor brakes and stopped with the help of sliding along a divider and an expensive car.  That owner was freaked out about the damage when he found out the driver also had no insurance.  He told the officer to arrest him.  The officer replied, "Why?  He has no insurance, junker car, iffy job, no money, what's the point?  He's Judgementproof."

Maybe he'll get sanctions.  If he doesn't pay up maybe he'll be sent to jail for a few months but unless you can get garnishments - many deadbeat parents for some strange reason don't earn much and if they get garnished they change jobs - then your options are limited.  Can that lack of compliance be used to help you gain more costodial responsibility or time?

[livednlearned]

When you have to go back to court to enforce custody orders, and the judge makes the other parent pay your attorney fees, what is the likely hood of actually getting that money if ex already is in debt, already doesn't pay child support (supposedly because he has no money) and already has multiple liens against his property, resulting in virtually no equity?

This sounds similar to one of the cases I saw before mine went before the judge (last week). The judge said if the father did not pay child support and refinance the house (which was underwater), then he had to spend 30 days in jail.

[Free One]

Can that lack of compliance be used to help you gain more costodial responsibility or time?

Yes, that would be my only reason to go to court. Ex is not paying child support, as he is supposed to, but that isn't the real issue. He has violated certain agreements we have about who our child is exposed to. He is living with a felon, dumping son off every with sitters so he can party, difficult to communicate with... . just a bunch of things I now feel compelled to take action about.

I feel stuck. I can't keep my head in the sand and pretend these things aren't happening during his parenting time, but I don't want to drain my savings either. Ultimately, I have to do what it is best for my son, but I hate being in this position.

[Kayci]

Hi Free One.

Does your state have "right of first refusal"? In Calif, if the custodial parent (either) isn't actually spending the particular designated time with the child(ren), the other parent has right of first refusal. That means the custodial parent has to offer the other parent the option of having the child before they can leave the child with anyone else.

How this helps you:

1. You know your child is being loved and cared for (by you).

2. You keep a simple calendar (worth its weight in gold in court) of the dates and times your ex gives your child back to you during his custodial time, and this factors into the child support formula for guideline support. Also, the judge can see that ex isn't participating in his parental rights and responsibilities.

Have you applied for a court-fee waiver? It's based on your income. If ex isn't paying his court-ordered support, don't include it as income. You might not have to pay your court fees to bring this back before the judge. But do ask for a wage assignment if you don't think it will spook ex into quitting his job. (His employer cannot fire him for a wage assignment.) You don't need to go back to court to file a wage assignment. Just ask the court for the paperwork (assuming the support is court-ordered).

Best of luck, Free One!

[Free One]

Hi Free One.

Does your state have "right of first refusal"? In Calif, if the custodial parent (either) isn't actually spending the particular designated time with the child(ren), the other parent has right of first refusal. That means the custodial parent has to offer the other parent the option of having the child before they can leave the child with anyone else.

How this helps you:

1. You know your child is being loved and cared for (by you).

2. You keep a simple calendar (worth its weight in gold in court) of the dates and times your ex gives your child back to you during his custodial time, and this factors into the child support formula for guideline support. Also, the judge can see that ex isn't participating in his parental rights and responsibilities.

Have you applied for a court-fee waiver? It's based on your income. If ex isn't paying his court-ordered support, don't include it as income. You might not have to pay your court fees to bring this back before the judge. But do ask for a wage assignment if you don't think it will spook ex into quitting his job. (His employer cannot fire him for a wage assignment.) You don't need to go back to court to file a wage assignment. Just ask the court for the paperwork (assuming the support is court-ordered).

Best of luck, Free One!

No, we don't right of first refusal. We could've written it in to our agreement, but I chose not to because I could see ex using it against me in times that my son might want to spend the night with grandma and grandpa or his aunt and uncle. Or even while I am at work.

My L has said the judge can order ex to pay legal fees, but that's my question. How would I actually get those fees paid by ex, when he has no assets? A fee waiver could help some (although our court fees are relatively low here), but it's the attorney fees that would be the big cost. This isn't something I can do without an attorney.

[ForeverDad]

I agree having ex pay just the court fees isn't much help.  You need to petition or motion for the court to order him to pay your legal expenses as well.  First get him ordered to pay your legal costs/fees/whatever, because how you get him to pay them is a separate issue and is purely mind games, an abstract issue, until you get an order stating so.

[Free One]

I agree having ex pay just the court fees isn't much help.  You need to petition or motion for the court to order him to pay your legal expenses as well.  First get him ordered to pay your legal costs/fees/whatever, because how you get him to pay them is a separate issue and is purely mind games, an abstract issue, until you get an order stating so.

Yes, but that's my question. Even with a court order, is it likely I will ever get the money, or should I go into this mentally prepared to be out $10,000+?

[livednlearned]

I agree having ex pay just the court fees isn't much help.  You need to petition or motion for the court to order him to pay your legal expenses as well.  First get him ordered to pay your legal costs/fees/whatever, because how you get him to pay them is a separate issue and is purely mind games, an abstract issue, until you get an order stating so.

Yes, but that's my question. Even with a court order, is it likely I will ever get the money, or should I go into this mentally prepared to be out $10,000+?

I just asked my L the same question. My ex was ordered to pay my legal fees. But now he's causing all kinds of problems with a separate part of the consent order (refusing to give me the title to my car). It makes me think he doesn't plan on ever paying, since the confusion and obstruction he's causing cost him, not me. When I find out, I'll post it here.

[ForeverDad]

I can't really be sure of your case in your court in your county in your state/province in your country.  Local family law attorneys might be able to give you a better feel for what happens in your court.

Typically, getting legal costs reimbursed may depend upon various factors such as whether the requester is the disadvantaged spouse or not, whether the motion before the court had at least a semblance of merit, etc.

In my case, my ex counter-filed in her response to my divorce filing seeking for me to pay her legal costs.  After nearly two years in the divorce process, my ex settled on our Trial Day.  Part of the settlement was that we each were responsible for our own legal fees.  Since she had minimal income and I kept the house, she had to pay her legal fees out of the marital equity (house, accounts, etc) I paid her in the settlement.  I never found out whether court would have ordered me to pay her fees or not.

Since then we've been in court a number of times over custodial and parenting time issues.  Neither of us has paid the other's costs.

My 'impression' is that a financially disadvantaged spouse in a long term marriage (think: target/victim) might get legal costs reimbursed - or might not.

My 'impression' is that a parent pulled (or forced by continuing noncompliance) into court may get reimbursed but generally not the first few times.  Apparently courts are initially reluctant to have one parent feel the 'winner' and the other feel the 'loser'.  One way to perhaps get 'consequences' sooner is to make the children the 'winner' such as by asking that any sanctions or awards go into an education fund for the children.

Getting a order awarding reimbursement of costs is the first step.  Collecting a reimbursement as the second step might be a different matter, you might even have to go right back to court for nonpayment, but as I wrote before you first have to complete step one before you find out what precisely can be done about step two, until then it's just hypothetical.  (There may not be any advance guarantees.  Some who have been ordered to pay whatever have just quit their job or changed jobs so frequently that the garnishment can't keep up.)  Again, a local attorney can at least indicate the feasibility of (1) getting an order for reimbursement or sanctions and (2) ways it can be enforced or alternate consequences.