Status of "friendship" with ex

[MaybeSo]

My friendship with my ex slowly developed into including physical intimacy.

He was also a big help getting my new home in order and some remodel projects.

We did not have a promised or committed r/s other than a promise to be honest and treat eachother well.

He reported that his work in T was directed toward developing interests and friendships that round out his life, instead of his pattern of women only connections. He was to strengthen his ability to be alone and not emotionally dependent on a woman(en). He engaged in several significant projects/activities during our time together that were for him, and did not include me, which I enthusiastically supported, including sports re: trips and a weekend away with a man's process group that he was very excited about.

The high of the mens weekend followed with a crash, and he's been a bit dysphoric since.

This led to our discussion (I posted here) where he complained I was not "eferevesent" enough for him. I maintained it was his job to cope with his depressed/anxious/bored  feelings, not mine. I can't fix it for him. He seemed a bit better in ensuing weeks.

I then had some family events that preoccupied my weekends for about a month; he was welcome to attend but chose not to.

We resumed seeing eachother on weekends when my other engagements were completed.

Last weekend, after he got back from his own trip with his kids, he tearfully indicated that he loved me but he needed to let me know he had been spending a lot of time (just recently while I was involved in my own enhsgements) with another woman and had had sex with her. He told me this Sun morning after having slept all night in my bed with me (no sex, which is why I asked him what was wrong).  He wanted to be honest, and knew our physical r/s had to end since he has now started sleeping  with another woman.

So that is that. I told him he needs to stop spending weekends here, obviously, and attend to his NEW relationship.

So, nothing too new or too surprising to report. Same old same old.

In the past, his need to find another woman was blamed on my hyper-vigilance, and not allowing him his freedom. This time, he had total freedom, but still needs another woman and can't tolerate any alone time whatsoever.

So, at least I know it's definitely not all me, and his stuff really has little to do with me, or any particular woman, at all.

[seeking balance]

How are you feeling about this MaybeSo?

You seem "matter-of-fact" - which isn't a bad thing at all.

[heartandwhole]

Ouch.  I'm sorry MaybeSo.  You sound in a good place, but it would still hurt me, if I had gotten close to him again (which I would have if we were having sex).  Not sure if your agreement included that you were both free to see and be intimate with other people?

I once asked my pwBPD if he was afraid to be alone.  He answered emphatically that he wasn't.  Looking at his actions and what he has reported to me, I suspect that he hasn't been without a relationship or lover continuously in the last 10+ years.

I like seeking balance's question: how are you feeling? 

[MaybeSo]

I do feel pretty matter of fact.

People are who they are.

I bit the hook a little: regarding his current T goals. There was a underlying theme that his work to round-out his life and tolerate some time alone and havd more autonomy was so he could be more available for a real relationship with me ( or someone, eventually ) ... . but it got by-passed once again with his drug of choice... . the next new peak experience. At least that is how I see it.  He moves between acknowledging it's the same old pattern, and a belief or hope that THIS one is the one. Eye roll. Before he left, he eye rolled himself, and said "we both know exactly how this will turn out."

Still, he is off having a peak experience with his NEW lover, and I'm once again left alone,

having to once again go without  both my lover and my friends company. (I have other friends,

but no other lovers!)

So, what that tells me is that I need to take better care of my own needs. I need a lover that

doesn't just blow me off overnight for someone else,  so I'd better work to manifest that for

myself. Cause THIS man certainly isn't going to meet that need.

So, where do you find a healthy lover that doesn't have major attachment issues? Or, on some level, maybe this works for me just as it is.

[seeking balance]

So, what that tells me is that I need to take better care of my own needs. I need a lover that

doesn't just blow me off overnight for someone else,  so I'd better work to manifest that for

myself. Cause THIS man certainly isn't going to meet that need.

wise words - sometimes we just are not done until we are done.

So, where do you find a healthy lover that doesn't have major attachment issues?

Do you want the real answer on this?

I don't know.

What I do know is this:

Most people have issues, to what degree, only with time can we find out.  Accepting "less than" means that I might go for months or ... . gulp... . years, without having lovers, but I am finally ok with that.  I don't want "good enough".  Having this new found, I dunno - self respect (not sure what to call it really) means that I have broken up with a few people now after 6 - 8 weeks because their patterns of attachment were just not going to work for me... . breaking up with people sucks, big time - but, I just would resent myself and them if I were seeing patterns yet going down the path.

So, where do you find them?  No idea - but I know that it takes time to actually date to see if the words and actions are aligned.


I am glad you are ok - I am sure there is some sadness, lonely feelings - but not devastating. 

[MaybeSo]

Thank you, and yes, bummed out, but not devastated.

It appears he technically was honest with me according to our agreements (don't sleep with me if you are sleeping with someone else) though part of that is just based on trusting his reporting,  I dont really have anyway of verifying when he actually started this up and/or slept with her. What I do know from the timing of his confession, is that the margins were paper thin, meaning... . he left my bed and very quickly jumped into her bed. Possibly the very same day he was last with me intimately... . because later that nite his daughter called super late wondering if he was in bed with me. She expected him home by 9pm and it was 11pm and she was getting worried. I was at an event with some girlfriends, and my first thought was, he's not in bed with me, so he's probably in bed with someone else... . though I of course didn't say anything to his daughter like that. So, I suspect he was with the new woman that night. Whenever his daughter

is looking for him late at night, it always has to do with some

female.

So, again, he did not sleep with me again after that night, so he was technically in accordance with

our agreement. But he didn't share about the new woman until he got back from his trip with

his kids. He let me send loving text messages and call him in Europe for 3 weeks, and his

romance with this gal was already in full swing. He was receiving text messages from both of us

during the entire 3 weeks of his trip away while I remained ignorant. Oh, but the other woman "knows all about me".

I myself would not treat a friend that way. I would not let a lover think all is well for 3 weeks

and accept loving text messages from two lovers at the same time.

But, I know he is very different than me in this way. Very different. And I already know that.

[Cumulus]

For me it was the lying by omission and the half truths that not angered me but I guess for want of a better word caused me damage. In the last years I was so far disconnected that it really didn't devastate me either when I found out about the other women. In fact I  saw them as a blessing, my free out of jail card! What was hard was feeling ignorant of all that was going on behind my back. I'm sorry maybeso.

[MaybeSo]

Cumulous, I agree, in a way, it ends up feeling like a blessing. Thank you for your support.

[patientandclear]

MaybeSo ... . that sounds very hard.  The paper thin margin, the simultaneity, like you're saying.  And I guess also, it seems hard because you have been as fair and loving and accepting toward him as a person could possibly be.  Talk about meeting him where he's at!  And yet, the truth is, he treated you poorly.  According to any set of rules.  That sucks, and it isn't fair.

You know much of my story with my ex.  Our friendship is underway again.  Without plowing into the details here, he is being really warm & solicitous now, & it is such a struggle for me to make myself be honest with myself about all I really do know about how he works and how his feelings work.  I sure do wish it were different.  I know you do, too.  We have a lot of background with these men by now (you more than me) and obviously we have a lot in common and find each other compelling in some kind of enduring way.  For goodness's sake, that should be enough!  But it isn't for them.  It's as if they are so de-sensitized by "peak experiences" as you say, that they cannot cherish and value the depth and sweetness and forgiveness and shared history and, recently at least, principled interpersonal practices, that we have with them.  Such a bummer.

I am not going to have sex with my ex.  Not. Going. To. Have. Sex. With. My. Ex.  But for your story, I think I might have (we are about to have a reunion in a third city and I'm sure we'll have a wonderful time -- and with anyone else about whom I felt this way, I'd completely be open to a sexual reunion too).  But I KNOW where it will go after that.  And I don't want him to disappoint me again.  I really don't.  I want us to stay on ground we can, possibly, both sustain without betrayal.

You've written that you weren't sure about sharing your post-r/s experiment with "friendship" here because it seems to trip the tripwires of so many members, and people get all caught up in sharing their view that it's not a good idea, maybe you shouldn't value this or want this, etc.  I always meant to write you that I am so glad you DO share about this.  It is super helpful to the rest of us who are trying to have some kind of worthwhile, healthy, principled connection with pwBPD after the more standard romance scenario comes to a close.  I hope you feel supported enough that it is worthwhile to you, too.  You're still my BPD (ex)partner role model.

[doubleAries]

MaybeSo, I also want to thank you for sharing this story. It's been more helpful to me than you can know. My divorce was final a couple weeks ago, my ex still works for me and will continue to do so for probably a very long time, and I am somewhat struggling to figure out how to be friends with him. It's an internal struggle for me--he isn't BPD, he's bipolar, so it's almost the opposite problem. I feel empathy or closeness for him and he's completely oblivious. Always was. We were married for 18 years. I guess it has become a habit for me now to continue to deny the reality and cling to the unrealistic hope that he will suddenly, magically become capable of the genuine and sincere emotional interaction required of an intimate relationship. I've been on the verge of wanting to initiate physical/sexual interaction with him (which he would probably go along with). This is a terrible idea. No, your story isn't the same as mine, but it helps me put mine into perspective again, and be reminded why I divorced him in the first place. Thanks for sharing, and sorry for what you have been/are going through with this.

[Grey Kitty]

You do sound disappointed rather than broken by what he has done this time, which was well, hurtful without being a full-blown betrayal.   I'm still sorry you went through this.

My friendship with my ex slowly developed into including physical intimacy.

I'm not sure if you are saying that as if it was a good thing or a bad thing, looking back at it right now.

Are you re-thinking what role he can fulfill in your life that will be healthy for you going forward?

[123Phoebe]

Last weekend, after he got back from his own trip with his kids, he tearfully indicated that he loved me but he needed to let me know he had been spending a lot of time (just recently while I was involved in my own enhsgements) with another woman and had had sex with her. He told me this Sun morning after having slept all night in my bed with me (no sex, which is why I asked him what was wrong).  He wanted to be honest, and knew our physical r/s had to end since he has now started sleeping with another woman.

So that is that. I told him he needs to stop spending weekends here, obviously, and attend to his NEW relationship.

Well, this sounds like progress actually... .   Honesty (albeit 3 weeks late) has been injected into your relationship and with that comes consequences using your honest to goodness boundaries.  He doesn't get to enjoy the best of both worlds, with all that comes with it-- women fighting over him, drilling home the point of how messed up he is, pushing and pulling and oh so comfortable for him, all that negativity... .   While you get to enjoy your strength and dignity.

It's hard, no matter what though.

So, where do you find a healthy lover that doesn't have major attachment issues? Or, on some level, maybe this works for me just as it is.

This resonates with me.  I am not in a place in my life to have a full-blown relationship, 24/7.  There are too many things I'm finding out about myself that would make a full-on relationship feel claustrophobic.  And by full-on, maybe I'm still referring to an imagined relationship and injecting my own yucky past experiences into the future; not sure.  But it sure doesn't sound (or look too much different in print), than how my pwBPD behaves in life and love... .   So, we're pretty level in our attachment issues.

I do know that I feel content for the most part, so I go with that feeling... .   Use it as a home-base.  When contentment vanishes, there's more work on me that needs tending to... .

Is having a friend/lover without attachment issues big on your list?  Does becoming attachment-issue-free yourself take a higher priority?  Are you pretty content with your life as it is, with or without him or anyone else (friend/lover) in it?  Would you still like him to be in your life in some capacity?

Ah, life... .

[MaybeSo]

Hi Grey Kitty,

I guess in theory I would have refrained from the sexual component, that was how the friendship began, and it stayed that way for a long time.

He was overlapping then, too, paper thin margins,  I was aware a year r/s with another women had not been fully put to rest and I didn't sleep with him because I do not like the paper thin margins thing. Much later I knew that r/s had totally crashed & burned, and we were still hanging out on weekends at my new place. I still held off for a while because I was weighing the pros & cons of added venerability for me, knowing he is a guy who can't sit still very long. Eventually I decided to allow for sex in our relationship because I wanted to make sure my needs were met as best as I could given who he really is, if I'm going to spend anytime with

him. He never stays, he will have a mood swing and eventually wander off. But I lived with him

on and off for 5 years, helped rsise his kids, and he is like a husband. I also know i can go

years before finding a lover I feel comfortable with, years. I'm 49. I enjoy that part of life. I

never know if I will find that again with someone else, and I'm not good at going out and finding

someone "new". He's very good at that, I'm not. Historically, it takes me a long, long time to

end a relationship and then start another. I've gone up to six years with no lover, and that was

in my late 30s.  I have had many years single and alone, and i can be fine, but i do enjoy having sex, moreso now than when i was younger. At 49, i may be alone for a long time. I have

been with no one but my ex since we met. And I don't meet men everyday I am attracted to,

in fact, it almost never happens. My ex and I were nearly NC for a year, I met no one, and of

course I was grieving. He was in love with another woman w/n three months, just like that.  

So I chose not to hold back or deny myself with him.  Yea, it made me more  vulnerable,  but

its not like I'm a naive teenager anymore, and I harbor NO more schoolgirl fantasies about him.

So I don't regret that I allowed myself to enjoy that part of the relationship. This guy is very, very challenging. If he's going to be in my space, I wanted to make sure it worked for ME; i have given and given and done the codep rescue and sacrafice thing with him, ive done that, ive sacraficed and denied myself and worked my ass off for him, in the hope id get my needs met. Bull-sh@@ way to live. My focus was different this time. How is this working for me? How can i get my needs met given the real limitations of this guys personality? I let him put money

into improvements needed on my new house, I let

him tinker and fix and repair things, we made love, we laughed and went out to dinner, we

drank nice wines, we talked about our kids, and work family and how weird life is. This worked for me. I did not do any rescue or control operations with him at all. 

When he gets into his moody dark place, he is not easy to be around, and there was some of that, too. Didn't make it my job to fix it.

And ... .

we hung out until he met someone else and now he's busy with the new woman.  That's pretty

much what I  thought would happen.

[MaybeSo]

123phoebe,

Yea, to be honest, having a lover on the weekends, with the flexibility to go do other things with my gf's on some of the weekends, really worked for me at this stage of my life. I work long hours during the week in a very intense setting. I don't want to chat when I come home at night, I want peace and quiet and to get grounded and recharged. Do I want 24/7 relationship right now? No. Probably not.

If my ex and I could have maintained this without his need to seek constant attention from other women, if he could tolerate some alone time and be faithful, this would have really worked for me.

[MaybeSo]

Hi P&C,

Good to hear from you!

I know we both wish these men were not broken in this way. It is truly a shame.

Enjoy your time with your friend, and work to keep in touch with yourself. All we can do is deal with reality as it is.

[Rose Tiger]

Ex contacted me a while back, June?  He was going through a rough time, thinking about meds, would ride his bike 2 blocks and have to turn around and go back home.  I was doing pretty good, felt some validation that he with no interference/pushing/coercion from me wanted help.  Kind of threw the all my fault out the window.

Then the fires and he is a volunteer fireman.  I saw the fire start from the 5 story building I work in.  I texted him "Be careful".  He texted back, 'this is going to suck'.  The fire was bad, I watched the wind kick up so fast and I could see white smoke and then black smoke as it took out home after home.  This went on for several days until they had containment.  I spoke with ex a couple times on what was going on because the news wasn't saying much.  I burst out crying when I saw a fire truck driving on the road.  I was so scared for ex.  He would text, your boss' home is ok, not sure on your friend xyz house.  I wanted to tell my evacuated boss this info but thought, what if ex is wrong?  Best keep it to myself.  Work got voluntarily evacuated and I stayed away, I couldn't handle watching the white smoke, then black and knowing ex was in there.

Afterward, days after the fire was out and people were returning to see if they had a house, how bad the woods were burned, ex and I chatted, phone, text, emails.  It came to light that during his issues in June was when his daughter (wifey) was visiting her mother.  Now our convos have dribbled off to nothing and it hurts, not as bad as when we broke up last year in July but still pretty bad.  I see how easy it is to hook back up but I can't handle his nonchalance towards me and his deep enmeshment with his daughter (wife).  She takes care of his emotional needs, like the type of wife he wants.  If he ever hooks up sexually with anyone, I know the daughter (wife) will take that woman out, passive/aggressively, just like she did me.

So I can relate to your feelings Maybeso, the easy comradery we have with our ex's and the sadness that they can never be who we need in a partner.

[Grey Kitty]

Maybeso, you seem to be saying that you would like intimacy and sex in a r/s, but don't want a full-blown 'move-in-and-share-all-your-time-and-finances-and-everything' kind of relationship.

And that your ex provided this, but not quite in the way you wanted. You found ways to be with him that worked around many of his BPD issues... . but they didn't go away. Still it worked well enough for you while he was interested in it, and now he's not.

I'm feeling optimistic right now. I bet there *is* a guy out there who you would be able to connect with, who has compatible needs and desires... . and isn't covered with

Are you interested in looking for a guy like this?

[patientandclear]

GK--I think MaybeSo's guy IS interested in the deal, it's just that he has introduced an element that crosses MS's current boundaries (sex & pursuing a r/s with another woman). Small point but I think it matters--this is a question of MS's choice as much or more than his.

MS, you said he was tearful. Does he express regret about the implications of this choice he's making? Well, that could be illuminating for him over time.

[MaybeSo]

As a quick update, I already got a long worded message from my ex last night.

I expected all quiet for, oh, two to even 6 months... . but with some contact around month 4 as his interest in the OW burns down and the usual dismay kicks in. But I guess this OW hasn't quite cut the mustard cause he's already on the down swing... .

and I already heard from him Sun night, long text about how he met with his T and he is ashamed of his behavior, is in an full 'owning my sh$$' mode right now, pretty down on himself, and he is moving into the "I am going to do anything and everything to get better so I don't do this self-destructive crap anymore" mode.  He is reading a book recommended by T called Infidelity (a buddist take on the subject) and several other books about taking care of yourself.

We have had many such rejuvenation of efforts toward healing in the past, too. They ebb and flow, depending how he is feeling. I don't go so far as to say he is not sincere, he continues even 8 years later to always present as wholeheartedly sincere and he really will buckle down and do some really interesting work and will show really impressive insight etc.   But with the mood and feeling fluctuation, my experience is that he will eventually move out of this new intense self reflection phase, too. Which can be fine, but he tends to swing back to old behaviors.   His emotional memory is horrific... . as time passes, it will be like this didn't really happen and he wont have the same emotional memory of it that he is experiencing right now... . but that includes the epiphanies and the healing parts, too.  You kind of have to have an emotional memory to carry what you experienced into the future with you.  I don't think he has that, because he kind of does everything like it's groundhog day.

The T has him really doing 'practice' work... . meditation rituals that follow principles and guidelines that he embraces... . and I think it's been helpful in the past but not enough to prevent what just happened, obviously.  I have no reason to believe this same kind of dynamic won't continue... . it certainly has for the 8 years I've known him.

So, it's always a very tuff call with this one.

I don't know anyone on this board except for probably Steph's husband that actually embraces therapy and healing practices the way my ex does.  However, Steph's husband was not a guy who had any issues with fidelity, that was not part of his presentation... . he was a rager and that certainly made life difficult enough... . but no other women. It wasn't his 'thing'. And he seemed to be able to take what he learns into the future with him. God, my guys memory is really messed up... .

I know how entrenched our sexuality 'style' is just as ordinary people... . I think his 'style'  will probably always be a struggle for him. He is almost 50 now.

So, If I want, I can probably keep this going at some point again in some capacity, but just know... . this pattern will continue.

Or, stop spending time with him in that way at all... . and spend the next year or two just being single again and looking for a partner that is more healthy. Or just being single and not looking, which is my usual comfort zone.

I did look just for research sake on "match" this weekend. I was NOT at all encouraged, so many profiles just have so many red flags, it feels like a huge step backward in so  many ways.  At least my ex has done some serious therapy... . geeze.  I don't know.

My ex is not a rager, he is not a drug user, he is not overtly mean, he has never been physically violent or aggressive.  We have that 'easy commraderie' that RoseTiger mentions. He has done tons of work, the r/s I have with him is much more even keel and comfortable than it ever was. He is a professional, makes good money, is fun to be around, the sex has always been natural and good, he is a normal person when he's not in a crappy mood swing. He does a lot of nice things for me. He helps me a lot with practical matters.

He is not an easy person or the most joyous person to be involved with long term; he refrains from being around my friends and family now... . he used to join in all the time, and of course, we use to live together so we use to have everyone over for TG and other holidays. But, now, probably because he feels ashamed of his behavior and wary of 'committment'... . he won't participate when folks are visiting anymore... . and that's obviously kind of a drag.  When in a bad mood he's like a black hole... . but I just don't even get involved with that anymore... . I use to just work over time to fix fix fix fix it... . not anymore.      

He will probably always struggle to not get crushes on other women or wander off the reservation. And always be a moody guy.  

On some level I just don't even feel like I have to make any decisions right now.  There is a part of me that is open to something healthier, but I don't feel like going out and 'looking' for it.  I don't know.

[seeking balance]

MaybeSo,

These seem like 2 very different subjects.

Regarding him:

Don't you think it comes down to a combination of radical acceptance and boundaries?

I mean, you set a boundary for a reason - what was that reason?  Is it still valid? 

I think you are right, he is who he is... . if you can be with him and accept him, then great. 

Regarding dating another:

I don't mean this to come across unkind - but does it really matter if there is nobody else right now?  I don't understand the cause/effect of if you break up with him then you immediately find someone else.  Help me understand how being alone because there is nobody else makes you change your boundaries with ex? 

[MaybeSo]

SB, i have dealt with this for 8 years. My life is moving along here.

I'm just trying to decide if I can envision a life with someone else.

Or being alone.

I know how to be alone, it's not a problem.

But like the companionship and other features I've had with my ex. I can continue, likely, along that path, with continued acceptance of his patterns. Eyes wide open.

Or, cut off my contact with him, and move along single, with no ties that would interfer or

encumber me from perhaps dating and eventually being with someone else... . but that would take a long time.

I dont see myself doing both these things simultaneously,  it's one path or the other. I dont overlap r/s and I don't move quickly, I move at a snails pace with this stuff.

Neither has to be acted on decided right now; I'm just thinking outloud.

There IS NO urgency find another lover right now. Im not thinking "oh, i have to replace my ex

right this minute." There is no need, and I never transition quickly from one r/s to another, anyway, it takes me a long time, indeed I'm weighing my options once again because I'm 50, I've been connected to ex for 8 years now, it historically takes me forever to click with someone, and that

is part of what makes me reticent to just cut ties when some important needs do get met. Though not all. Before I met my ex, I was single for over six years after my divorce.

My boundary is not sleep with him if he's sleeping with someone else. That's not changed.

[seeking balance]

Thanks for clarifying - when you were talking about match.com and him in the same post - it seemed either/or the way I was reading it.

Why do you have that particular boundary?  Some folks do have open relationships... . is that an option for you?

[MaybeSo]

I've never felt the least bit comfortable with a open relationship, and despite his straying behavior, my ex insists he is not looking for that either.

In some ways, based on my acknowledgement of HIS tendacy to stray, I have in a defacto way signed onto a sort of open r/s situation; but the relatiinship energy still resides in seeing any wandering or sexual openess as a disappointment and a defeat; a bad thing, not a good thing, it's not something either of us have yet just embraced as a lifestyle choice or preference. We both think it sucks.

[seeking balance]

it's not something either of us have yet just embraced as a lifestyle choice or preference. We both think it sucks.

why?  not because of society - but why for you does it suck?

[MaybeSo]

I geuss I think on some level it's a cop out.

I know long term commitments are tuff, but I still buy into the belief that the tuff stuff has it's own rewards. And the "out" of  having a myriad of love affairs elsewhere, bypasses and dilutes the rewards of commitment.

I think it bypasses growth, too.

I'm not a huge fan of love affairs just for the sake of love affairs these days. It's that particular form of drug that my ex is addicted to in the first place. It does nothing to assist his emotional growth or stave off loneliness, it seems to make it worse.

So, I geuss my bias is that I see it as crutch or by-pass that brings no long term benefits.

I have a pretty negative bias about it. Don't mean to offend anyone who embraces this choice, i realize it may work for others.

[eeyore]

MaybeSo, long term commitments may be tuff to maintain but if that's what you need then do what is best for you.  It is possible for you to find a man that will be faithful to you and who sparks your internal flame.  I think you already know more of the same isn't quite right for you.  I wish you happiness and am thankful for how much you have given me things to think about the last few years. 

[MaybeSo]

Hi eeyore! Good to hear from you! How are you doing these days?

[Rose Tiger]

Hey girlfriend, don't look at match right now, you are not in the right frame of mind.  It's like your choices are, be alone the rest of your life, hook up with some horrible bad choice on match or consider continuing a r/s with someone that occasionally has no emotional memory of what you mean to him, or is pushing you away or gushing all over you.  Yeah.  Great choices.

Or you can work work through detaching again.  Painful hard work but not as bad as the last time.  Feeling no excitement over anything for a few weeks, maybe a couple of months.  Some good cries.  Anger.  :)enial.  You know the drill.  I was in such bad shape I was reading holocaust survivors memoirs thinking if they could live through that, I can live through this.

And then you start feeling a spark again.  Something makes you smile.  You start liking your friends again.  It's like a renewal, little leafs and buds start forming.  You start feeling ok, then really good.  Then you can think about playing on match for fun, not to have to marry the first guy you meet for a drink but just to get out and socialize.  When you are open to it, opportunities seem to just pop up.  You have to give it some time.

This is not something you can get over in five minutes.  I know you don't want to go through withdrawal again.  Blech. But you gotta do it.    

[MaybeSo]

Yea, I've done the withdrawal thing, and it was hard, probably the hardest thing I've ever done.

But, despite the disappointment, like, I'll never be a big fan of this behavior, I don't feel that upset.

In fact, I don't feel euphoric when things are good with him, or devastated when it goes awry. When things are good, it's just, you know,  normal good.

I like doing other things with my friends anyway... . I see them a lot. We have fun. My life is not all about him, hasn't been for over a year.

Im not like in la-la land with this guy anymore. Practically, some really important needs get

attended to when he's around on weekends, and he's good company, but if i stop seeing him, I

will not be anywhere near the painful withdrawal I've been through in the past.  I really do not feel addicted to him that way

anymore at all.

I take my lack of addiction to him, and not feeling devastated about his comings and goings, as a good sign.

[Rose Tiger]

I do, too.    It's the lonely night, something bad happened that day or something major broke... . that's the danger time.

This is like giving up smoking!  The water heater broke and is spraying water all over, the bills are crazy, I'm about to lose my job, I got in a fender bender, I'm smoking a cig.  I don't care.  That sort of thing.