strategy for mediation

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

Hi all, great to be back. Haven't posted for a while but have kept reading the Boards from time to time and have been busy making my new life. Left BPDxw 6 years ago. What a struggle. Now have 50/50 with s10 and d8. Have moved very slowly and very carefully to ensure effect on children minimised. Its still be very tough on them but they are ok, perhaps even better than ok. But unfortunately the Court process still drags on. Trial on finances and custody listed in September. However, parties have agreed to try mediation just before trial (mainly due to prohibitive costs of trial). I know mediations rarely work for BPDs. It requires reason and a genuine desire for resolution. Neither of which my BPDxw has.   Nevertheless, it is worth a try. The mediator is a well regarded retired Judge and I'm assured he is 'on the ball'. But my question is this : what is my strategy for mediating with a BPD? Play too hard and the mediation fails too quickly. Play too soft and I get railroaded into an unworkable solution. I can't use my usual strategies (the ones I have picked up on these boards over the years - short firm unemitonal communication, don't engage unless absolutely necessary and only one topic at a time, 3 sentences of less... . ) Because it will all be going through the third party mediator.

So how do I play it ? Comments and ideas appreciated.

[little doggy]

Hi all, great to be back. Haven't posted for a while but have kept reading the Boards from time to time and have been busy making my new life. Left BPDxw 6 years ago. What a struggle. Now have 50/50 with s10 and d8. Have moved very slowly and very carefully to ensure effect on children minimised. Its still be very tough on them but they are ok, perhaps even better than ok. But unfortunately the Court process still drags on. Trial on finances and custody listed in September. However, parties have agreed to try mediation just before trial (mainly due to prohibitive costs of trial). I know mediations rarely work for BPDs. It requires reason and a genuine desire for resolution. Neither of which my BPDxw has.   Nevertheless, it is worth a try. The mediator is a well regarded retired Judge and I'm assured he is 'on the ball'. But my question is this : what is my strategy for mediating with a BPD? Play too hard and the mediation fails too quickly. Play too soft and I get railroaded into an unworkable solution. I can't use my usual strategies (the ones I have picked up on these boards over the years - short firm unemitonal communication, don't engage unless absolutely necessary and only one topic at a time, 3 sentences of less... . ) Because it will all be going through the third party mediator.

So how do I play it ? Comments and ideas appreciated.

[GaGrl]

What is her starting position?  What is she wanting that is different from your current situation?

[ForeverDad]

Over the years there have been many threads about mediation on this board.  You can browse them in case anything is missed here.

Psychology... .   Are there ways to let her feel she 'won' without impacting you very much?  For example, you can make a list of things you want but many of them are actually no big issue for you.  You can then relinquish them with pained groans and she may feel she 'won' them yet not realize she didn't get all of the important issues. If she thinks you feel you lost, then she may gloat out the door taking the inconsequential things with her.

Boundaries... . Be firm in a principled way for what you feel is right, especially right for your parenting.

Starting point... . Don't start with your final or 'best' offer.  As much as ex will fight to get everything and not give up anything, you will be expected to give up some items as well.  So at least ask for your optimal yet somewhat reasonable outcome, then if/when you are asked to negotiate and give on some points it won't be disastrous.  Remember, an disordered ex is generally an entitled ex also, so be aware ex will be asking for the moon.

Residential Parent... . Do try to be Residential Parent for School Purposes.  Most pwBPD are entitled and cannot share their children.  That makes communication with the school difficult when the other parent won't inform or even blocks your participation at school.  You know that you can reasonably share your child, so you ought to be the person delegated to be the primary contact with school.  Is she has been temporary RP, then try to provide examples where she blocked or obstructed your parenting with respect to school issues as reason why you should be RP.

Custody... .   Typically one parent is given temp custody in the temporary orders.  Who has temp custody now?  Typically it is hard for the father to get sole custody, but if you can't get that then joint custody may be your second best option.  However, though the court would view you both as having equal rights in such jointness, the fact is that she would be more likely than you to disagree or obstruct, with the only option going right back to glacially slow court or mediation.  If the court wants to do joint custody, see if you can show the need for you to be the one with 'tie breaker' or 'decision making' rights.  As in "or else, your honor, I fear we'll be right back here in your courtroom over and over for the next decade."   Sure, she could still contest it to a mediator or court, but at least the issue wouldn't be on hold for months while the court figures out what to rule at a snail's pace.

[Matt]

Yeah, all that FD says, plus... .

* Know exactly what will happen if mediation is successful, and if mediation is unsuccessful.

* Know what the scope of mediation is - all the issues or only some of them?

* Know if you can reach agreements on pieces - maybe some small issues can be settled - or if you have to agree to everything together.

* Know if the mediator and/or his report will be available to the court, or if what goes on in mediation is kept confidential.

* Have your objective(s) very clear in your mind, and be able to explain them briefly and clearly, with good reasons.  Maybe ask for a little more in each subject than you are willing to settle for, so there is some room to give a little.

* Consider putting some extra issues on the table - things that haven't been discussed yet, and maybe some of which you would be OK giving up.  If there are 5 things you really want, and you put 15 things on the table, then maybe a "compromise" will give you all 5 of the things most important to you.

* Bring a notebook to every meeting, and carefully note what the other party says, which might come up at trial.  For example, if there are any false accusations, or any kind of logic that is used against you, make careful note of it, so you can use it to prepare for trial.

* Your expectations should be low - if the other party has BPD or another psychological disorder, it's unlikely any good agreement can be reached at this point.  But don't show that to the mediator - act as if you are hopeful and prepared to work something out.

* When something is suggested, by the other party or the mediator, which you think is bad, listen carefully and show that you are thinking about it, not just reacting.  Then explain very clearly why it's not OK for you, and don't budge (unless it's part of a bigger agreement that you like).  :)on't be intimidated, even if the mediator is "on the other party's side" on that issue - the mediator doesn't have to live with it.

* In making a positive case for what you think would be best, try not to repeat yourself too much.  Say the same thing in different ways, or by emphasizing different aspects each time you advocate for it.  Don't be a broken record.

* But when you make a negative case for what is unacceptable to you, don't be afraid to repeat yourself.  "I will not agree to X because Y."  The other party repeats the idea, and you say, "As I said before, I will not agree to X because Y."  If Y hasn't changed, and she is still pitching X, you don't have to change what you say, because she hasn't overcome your objection.  (But if she changes her proposal so that it solves your problem - now it's X but it's no longer Y - you need to be open to that.)

  "I will not agree to changing schools because their current school is closer and is better academically than the one Ms. Ex proposes."

  "Well how about if we put them in another school that is closer and also better?"

  "I think it would be best to leave them where they are, but I am open to a change if the school is both closer and better."

* Once you have said "No" to something that you feel strongly about, don't budge.  If it comes up again, say, "We discussed that already and I will not agree to it, so it is a waste of time to talk about it any more.  Let's move on."

* If at any point the other party is abusive, establish a very firm boundary.  For example, if there are false accusations, you might say, "A few minutes ago Ms. Ex said, "Blah blah blah."  That is not true, and I will not continue this discussion if there are further false accusations."  Look at the mediator and address him when saying this, because it's his job to set the rules.  If he allows abusive behavior, tell him you are ending the session and tell him why:  "I told you I will not listen to false accusations and you have allowed them to continue.  If you want to have future sessions, and if you are willing to maintain appropriate ground rules, I will participate."

[livednlearned]

However, parties have agreed to try mediation just before trial (mainly due to prohibitive costs of trial). I know mediations rarely work for BPDs. It requires reason and a genuine desire for resolution. Neither of which my BPDxw has.   

Two ways to look at mediation:

1. If you want to save money, tell your ex what your deal breakers are in the first half hour. If she won't budge, then end mediation.

2. Use mediation strategically for the long term. The most important part is this: Don't consent to something lightly because if and when you need to modify it before a judge, he or she will not cut you any slack on why you made that decision. The burden will be on you to explain why you want to change something you consented to. On the flip side, you may want to give your ex something you know she will have trouble complying with. Then, when you're filing a motion for contempt, you can say that your ex agreed to this, and is not complying. That drives judges nuts.

I mediated a consent order with N/BPDx, and we resolved 98% of everything, including financial settlement and custody. By hold out was that I did not agree to joint legal custody in the consent order. My ex is narcissistic, and I suspect that made him want to appear as cooperative as possible. But then he was back to his usual difficult self once the document was signed. Of the things we mediated, I would say he grossly violated more than half of what we agreed to. If you know BPD, you know the story.

The benefit to mediation in my case is that it created an official document in which N/BPDx consented to the things he later disagreed with. There are only so many excuses the court is willing to entertain. And all that non-conformity just made N/BPDx look difficult. My ex is so-called high-functioning and he made no sense whatsoever in court, defending his own disordered behavior. 

[Matt]

The benefit to mediation in my case is that it created an official document in which N/BPDx consented to the things he later disagreed with. 

Where I live, this couldn't have happened, because everything worked out in mediation is confidential - only the mediator and the two parties know about it - until there is a signed agreement.  So if both parties don't sign the agreement, there is no record, nothing that was said or done can be used in court.

A good example of why it's critical to find out how mediation works where you live - what the ground rules are etc.

[livednlearned]

The benefit to mediation in my case is that it created an official document in which N/BPDx consented to the things he later disagreed with. 

Where I live, this couldn't have happened, because everything worked out in mediation is confidential - only the mediator and the two parties know about it - until there is a signed agreement.  So if both parties don't sign the agreement, there is no record, nothing that was said or done can be used in court.

A good example of why it's critical to find out how mediation works where you live - what the ground rules are etc.

That's how it worked in my case, Matt. What I'm saying is that mediation led to a consent order. And then N/BPDx failed to follow the consent order. That set up conditions for motions for contempt. In the eyes of the judge, N/BPDx's inability to follow an order that he consented to made him look like a difficult person. I think it was a mitigating factor in awarding me sole legal custody

[Thunderstruck]

I'm actually really interested in this topic since mediation is the next step for my SO.

I'm interested to know if it's necessary to have a L on your side because I would think that would make the pwBPD more likely to listen and negotiate? I would think suggestions not coming from the non (that they're used to abusing and walking all over) but from the L would be more likely to be considered?

Also, does L selection for mediation have an impact? For example, we're considering a loud male L because that seems most likely to "intimidate" the uBPDbiomom.

[Matt]

The benefit to mediation in my case is that it created an official document in which N/BPDx consented to the things he later disagreed with. 

Where I live, this couldn't have happened, because everything worked out in mediation is confidential - only the mediator and the two parties know about it - until there is a signed agreement.  So if both parties don't sign the agreement, there is no record, nothing that was said or done can be used in court.

A good example of why it's critical to find out how mediation works where you live - what the ground rules are etc.

That's how it worked in my case, Matt. What I'm saying is that mediation led to a consent order. And then N/BPDx failed to follow the consent order. That set up conditions for motions for contempt. In the eyes of the judge, N/BPDx's inability to follow an order that he consented to made him look like a difficult person. I think it was a mitigating factor in awarding me sole legal custody

I see - a good example!  If somebody agrees to something, and signs an official document, and then refuses to obey it - my ex has done that too, by not getting psychotherapy - that does show either a contempt for normal rules, and/or denial of the court's authority, and/or very twisted thinking in some way.

[Matt]

I'm actually really interested in this topic since mediation is the next step for my SO.

I'm interested to know if it's necessary to have a L on your side because I would think that would make the pwBPD more likely to listen and negotiate? I would think suggestions not coming from the non (that they're used to abusing and walking all over) but from the L would be more likely to be considered?

Also, does L selection for mediation have an impact? For example, we're considering a loud male L because that seems most likely to "intimidate" the uBPDbiomom.

First, you need to understand how mediation works where you live.  Where I live, for example, mediation is 3 one-hour sessions, or more if both parties agree to it;  no lawyers, just the two parties and the mediator;  the mediator is appointed by the court;  you can agree to everything, or just some specific things, and then sign a document prepared by the mediator, and those issues are resolved, and the remaining issues go to the court;  and the only evidence after mediation is the document you both signed - the mediator won't testify and her notes are destroyed.

That's how it works where I live, but it works differently in different places.  None of those things may be true where you live.

Having a lawyer before mediation may help, even if the lawyer is excluded from the sessions, because she can help you understand the issues and how it's likely to go in court, so you will know whether a proposal made during mediation is a better deal than you are likely to get in court or not.

There are also opportunities to work things out between the parties, with lawyers present;  that's not usually called "mediation", but maybe a "settlement conference", which may or may not include a judge.  If you find a good attorney, who has experience with opposing parties who have BPD or something similar, that could be very helpful in a number of ways;  the attorneys may be able to work out solutions that the parties couldn't, and an attorney might also help you see a path forward through the court, so when you talk with the other side you'll know how strong your position is on various issues, and you'll be able to negotiate wisely.

[livednlearned]

Also, you may be able to mediate while sitting in separate rooms. In which case, the type of L you get doesn't matter.

My L suggested that I sit in the same room so I could listen to what N/BPDx said. I planned to do that until the day mediation happened, when my L, after seeing the nature of our correspondence, was concerned that we were too "high-conflict" for face-to-face mediation.

So we mediated in separate rooms, with the mediator going between us.

The good part is that I was able to manage my stress better, which helped me think more clearly. I was still stressed, but not overly emotional, which I would have been if we were in the same room.

The downside is that I had a wacky mediator, and had to interpret what she was saying, which was itself an interpretation of what N/BPDx was saying. She was watering down what the other party was saying, and that made it hard to understand what was actually being said. Nevertheless, we were able to mediate almost everything, except for one part that got carved out and was put on "hold" -- sole legal custody. I eventually went to court for that.

[Matt]

Also, you may be able to mediate while sitting in separate rooms. In which case, the type of L you get doesn't matter.

My L suggested that I sit in the same room so I could listen to what N/BPDx said. I planned to do that until the day mediation happened, when my L, after seeing the nature of our correspondence, was concerned that we were too "high-conflict" for face-to-face mediation.

So we mediated in separate rooms, with the mediator going between us.

The good part is that I was able to manage my stress better, which helped me think more clearly. I was still stressed, but not overly emotional, which I would have been if we were in the same room.

The downside is that I had a wacky mediator, and had to interpret what she was saying, which was itself an interpretation of what N/BPDx was saying. She was watering down what the other party was saying, and that made it hard to understand what was actually being said. Nevertheless, we were able to mediate almost everything, except for one part that got carved out and was put on "hold" -- sole legal custody. I eventually went to court for that.

As I was reading LnL's post, I was thinking, "Well of course that sort of separate-room mediation could never work - what a waste of time!" - til I got to the "Nevertheless,... . " - it did work!

Maybe there's something to be learned there.  Maybe a disordered person will function better when the target of his hostility is out of sight... .

[livednlearned]

As I was reading LnL's post, I was thinking, "Well of course that sort of separate-room mediation could never work - what a waste of time!" - til I got to the "Nevertheless,... . " - it did work!

Maybe there's something to be learned there.  Maybe a disordered person will function better when the target of his hostility is out of sight... .

In my case, N/BPDx is very narcissistic. I suspect he was grandstanding -- he wanted to prove to his L that I was a nut, and I think he over cooperated in order to look like the good guy. 

I also learned during deposition, and during trial, that not having eye contact was a super effective tactic. My L confirmed for me that he was doing cartwheels trying to get me to look at him. So he could intimidate me? I dunno. I didn't look at him because I didn't want to get sidetracked by old feelings, or let him distract me. And I think I did well in both of those situations.

[Forward2free]

To this day, my divorce and first 2 custody orders were done through mediation - sort of.

We turned up for court, and didn't have a place in the lists due to busy court schedules. My lawyers talked to his lawyers and went back and forth all day between BPD/Nxh and I who were in separate rooms.

I had to give a lot more than I wanted. I have learnt to be firm on what I will not budge on, listen to my lawyers about how the judge/court would view my requirements and take their advice. I always had some proposed orders that I was willing to negotiate on or drop completely. This allowed BPD/Nxh to get some wins, and I too got what I needed for the kids.

BPD/Nxh became the most erratic over the smallest things in the end. His lawyers became frustrated with his unwillingness to settle and my lawyers were frustrated with his lawyers for agreeing to fight for his unreasonable expectations.

The difficulty that I have is that I can't tell if the lawyers are helping me or in it for themselves. They all stand to make $000's more if we come back another day. I guess that's the nature of the legal system.

Always be clear on what you want.

Be clear on what you don't want.

Be prepared to walk away from mediation if your boundaries are crossed.

Focus on what is best for the kids.

Come up with some orders that you can be flexible about or drop completely.

Get as much advice and reading done as you can about what is standard or reasonable in your state.

Stay calm, stay focused.

[motherof1yearold]

The benefit to mediation in my case is that it created an official document in which N/BPDx consented to the things he later disagreed with. 

Where I live, this couldn't have happened, because everything worked out in mediation is confidential - only the mediator and the two parties know about it - until there is a signed agreement.  So if both parties don't sign the agreement, there is no record, nothing that was said or done can be used in court.

A good example of why it's critical to find out how mediation works where you live - what the ground rules are etc.

That's how it worked in my case, Matt. What I'm saying is that mediation led to a consent order. And then N/BPDx failed to follow the consent order. That set up conditions for motions for contempt. In the eyes of the judge, N/BPDx's inability to follow an order that he consented to made him look like a difficult person. I think it was a mitigating factor in awarding me sole legal custody

I see - a good example!  If somebody agrees to something, and signs an official document, and then refuses to obey it - my ex has done that too, by not getting psychotherapy - that does show either a contempt for normal rules, and/or denial of the court's authority, and/or very twisted thinking in some way.

How did you get to the point of making her do psychotherapy?

[Matt]

The benefit to mediation in my case is that it created an official document in which N/BPDx consented to the things he later disagreed with. 

Where I live, this couldn't have happened, because everything worked out in mediation is confidential - only the mediator and the two parties know about it - until there is a signed agreement.  So if both parties don't sign the agreement, there is no record, nothing that was said or done can be used in court.

A good example of why it's critical to find out how mediation works where you live - what the ground rules are etc.

That's how it worked in my case, Matt. What I'm saying is that mediation led to a consent order. And then N/BPDx failed to follow the consent order. That set up conditions for motions for contempt. In the eyes of the judge, N/BPDx's inability to follow an order that he consented to made him look like a difficult person. I think it was a mitigating factor in awarding me sole legal custody

I see - a good example!  If somebody agrees to something, and signs an official document, and then refuses to obey it - my ex has done that too, by not getting psychotherapy - that does show either a contempt for normal rules, and/or denial of the court's authority, and/or very twisted thinking in some way.

How did you get to the point of making her do psychotherapy?

Well I was never successful in "making her do psychotherapy", only in getting the court to order it... .

First I filed a motion for the court to appoint a Custody Evaluator - a Ph.D. psychologist - who had the authority to request psych evals.  When I talked with him, I told him I thought he should do that, to get all the key information out on the table, and I made it clear that I would be glad to be evaluated too.

He requested the psych evals, and I took mine - the MMPI-2 - but my wife stalled.  Finally my lawyer told her lawyer, "If she doesn't take it by the deadline, we will make that a big issue with the court."  Her lawyer told her to take it and she did.

The results showed "multiple psychological disorders" including BPD, and that went into the CE's report.  The CE made a number of recommendations, including psychotherapy for my wife, and all those recommendations went into the court order;  that is, the judge ordered my wife to get psychotherapy.

But... . there is no enforcement.  So she ignored it.  And I haven't made an issue of it, because if the court forced her to do it, that would be a waste - she would just hire somebody and lie to her for an hour a week.

But... . if we ever go back to court, I could bring this issue out - show that she hadn't complied with the court's orders and that she hadn't taken care of herself as recommended by the psychologist.  She understands that - she's smart - so while she has been a pain in the neck at times, she has generally not fought me over stuff since that court order.  She surely knows that if she misbehaves badly she'll lose formal shared custody (50/50 according to the court order but in reality more like 75/25).

[motherof1yearold]

The benefit to mediation in my case is that it created an official document in which N/BPDx consented to the things he later disagreed with. 

Where I live, this couldn't have happened, because everything worked out in mediation is confidential - only the mediator and the two parties know about it - until there is a signed agreement.  So if both parties don't sign the agreement, there is no record, nothing that was said or done can be used in court.

A good example of why it's critical to find out how mediation works where you live - what the ground rules are etc.

That's how it worked in my case, Matt. What I'm saying is that mediation led to a consent order. And then N/BPDx failed to follow the consent order. That set up conditions for motions for contempt. In the eyes of the judge, N/BPDx's inability to follow an order that he consented to made him look like a difficult person. I think it was a mitigating factor in awarding me sole legal custody

I see - a good example!  If somebody agrees to something, and signs an official document, and then refuses to obey it - my ex has done that too, by not getting psychotherapy - that does show either a contempt for normal rules, and/or denial of the court's authority, and/or very twisted thinking in some way.

How did you get to the point of making her do psychotherapy?

Well I was never successful in "making her do psychotherapy", only in getting the court to order it... .

First I filed a motion for the court to appoint a Custody Evaluator - a Ph.D. psychologist - who had the authority to request psych evals.  When I talked with him, I told him I thought he should do that, to get all the key information out on the table, and I made it clear that I would be glad to be evaluated too.

He requested the psych evals, and I took mine - the MMPI-2 - but my wife stalled.  Finally my lawyer told her lawyer, "If she doesn't take it by the deadline, we will make that a big issue with the court."  Her lawyer told her to take it and she did.

The results showed "multiple psychological disorders" including BPD, and that went into the CE's report.  The CE made a number of recommendations, including psychotherapy for my wife, and all those recommendations went into the court order;  that is, the judge ordered my wife to get psychotherapy.

But... . there is no enforcement.  So she ignored it.  And I haven't made an issue of it, because if the court forced her to do it, that would be a waste - she would just hire somebody and lie to her for an hour a week.

But... . if we ever go back to court, I could bring this issue out - show that she hadn't complied with the court's orders and that she hadn't taken care of herself as recommended by the psychologist.  She understands that - she's smart - so while she has been a pain in the neck at times, she has generally not fought me over stuff since that court order.  She surely knows that if she misbehaves badly she'll lose formal shared custody (50/50 according to the court order but in reality more like 75/25).

Wow Matt! Out of curiosity- what were the other disorders she showed on the MMPI 2? Too bad she can't swallow her pride and get help. I'm sure my ex would do the same, continuing his denial.

[Matt]

The benefit to mediation in my case is that it created an official document in which N/BPDx consented to the things he later disagreed with. 

Where I live, this couldn't have happened, because everything worked out in mediation is confidential - only the mediator and the two parties know about it - until there is a signed agreement.  So if both parties don't sign the agreement, there is no record, nothing that was said or done can be used in court.

A good example of why it's critical to find out how mediation works where you live - what the ground rules are etc.

That's how it worked in my case, Matt. What I'm saying is that mediation led to a consent order. And then N/BPDx failed to follow the consent order. That set up conditions for motions for contempt. In the eyes of the judge, N/BPDx's inability to follow an order that he consented to made him look like a difficult person. I think it was a mitigating factor in awarding me sole legal custody

I see - a good example!  If somebody agrees to something, and signs an official document, and then refuses to obey it - my ex has done that too, by not getting psychotherapy - that does show either a contempt for normal rules, and/or denial of the court's authority, and/or very twisted thinking in some way.

How did you get to the point of making her do psychotherapy?

Well I was never successful in "making her do psychotherapy", only in getting the court to order it... .

First I filed a motion for the court to appoint a Custody Evaluator - a Ph.D. psychologist - who had the authority to request psych evals.  When I talked with him, I told him I thought he should do that, to get all the key information out on the table, and I made it clear that I would be glad to be evaluated too.

He requested the psych evals, and I took mine - the MMPI-2 - but my wife stalled.  Finally my lawyer told her lawyer, "If she doesn't take it by the deadline, we will make that a big issue with the court."  Her lawyer told her to take it and she did.

The results showed "multiple psychological disorders" including BPD, and that went into the CE's report.  The CE made a number of recommendations, including psychotherapy for my wife, and all those recommendations went into the court order;  that is, the judge ordered my wife to get psychotherapy.

But... . there is no enforcement.  So she ignored it.  And I haven't made an issue of it, because if the court forced her to do it, that would be a waste - she would just hire somebody and lie to her for an hour a week.

But... . if we ever go back to court, I could bring this issue out - show that she hadn't complied with the court's orders and that she hadn't taken care of herself as recommended by the psychologist.  She understands that - she's smart - so while she has been a pain in the neck at times, she has generally not fought me over stuff since that court order.  She surely knows that if she misbehaves badly she'll lose formal shared custody (50/50 according to the court order but in reality more like 75/25).

Wow Matt! Out of curiosity- what were the other disorders she showed on the MMPI 2? Too bad she can't swallow her pride and get help. I'm sure my ex would do the same, continuing his denial.

I don't know what the other disorders were;  the psychologist didn't say and I never had access to the original data.  I suspect one was depression, or that may be just a symptom of the BPD.  My view was, there are problems that cause her behavior, and very strong, consistent behavior patterns that hurt every member of the family.  What names you call it isn't too important, except that it was helpful to me to learn about BPD, which pretty much explains all her dysfunctional behaviors.  So my curiosity kind of petered out.

[motherof1yearold]

Wow! Gives me more hope that most people can't cheat the test!

[Matt]

Wow! Gives me more hope that most people can't cheat the test!

Yeah, if my understanding of the MMPI-2 is correct, it's pretty much impossible to cheat.

The reason is, they've built in 3 "truth scales" - combinations of items which are looked at by the computer and compared with the scores of many people who have taken the test honestly, and some who have lied.  The liars' scores on those items follow certain patterns, and the truth-tellers' scores follow different patterns.  So those three scales are pretty solid ways to know who has "presented falsely", as my wife did.

She got scores on the "truth scales" which told the psychologist that she had "presented falsely", and that went into his report.  But it didn't prevent him from making a diagnosis, since the test is designed to sort out the "false presentation" from the other issues like BPD.  So it can diagnose someone who is trying to fool it as solidly as someone who is taking it honestly.  (I know that doesn't sound possible, but I studied the literature around this test, and I became very confident in it.)

Other tests, I don't know - no experience with them and I haven't looked into them.

"Psych evals" which don't include some objective testing - I don't know if they are meaningful or not.  My guess is that some people with BPD can probably fool some professionals.  I would certainly suggest objective testing.

[livednlearned]

"Psych evals" which don't include some objective testing - I don't know if they are meaningful or not.  My guess is that some people with BPD can probably fool some professionals.  I would certainly suggest objective testing.

N/BPDx went through a psych eval -- so no MMPI-2. And the psychiatrist diagnosed him NPD. She also recommended that he stop drinking so a psychiatrist could see if there was an underlying diagnosis of bipolar.

I don't know how she came to that dx. There was a lot in the eval about how he was unaware of the emotional lives of other people. She also referenced "narcissistic injuries" dating back to his relationship with his mother and sister, and narcissistic injuries with his 3 ex wives (never knew about the first one).

But the psych eval was only one thing that tipped things in my favor. It was really N/BPDx's behavior that caused him to lose custody. He threatened the parenting coordinator assigned to our case, and I'm pretty sure that's what nailed it.

[little doggy]

Thanks you all for your comments and ideas. There are always new ideas on the boards which I hadn't thought of and I think will really help. Unfortunately despite initial indications of a preparedness to attend mediation, we havent locked in a mediator or even a date. At this stage we are looking at a mediation date only a week before the trial so there's lots of stress and pressure. And I am concerned it may just be a tactic by the BPDxw or her L to make us take our eye of the ball and not prepare for the trial as we should (pinning our hopes on a mediation when really the endgame was always the trial). Isn't it sad how cynical we get !

[nevaeh]

This information is very helpful.  Making initial plans to separate now but have not seen a lawyer yet.  I would like to end up in a mediation situation both to save money and to hopefully make things move more quickly.

I now have some ideas for what to write down as my goals for mediation.  Thanks for all the info!

[Matt]

Thanks you all for your comments and ideas. There are always new ideas on the boards which I hadn't thought of and I think will really help. Unfortunately despite initial indications of a preparedness to attend mediation, we havent locked in a mediator or even a date. At this stage we are looking at a mediation date only a week before the trial so there's lots of stress and pressure. And I am concerned it may just be a tactic by the BPDxw or her L to make us take our eye of the ball and not prepare for the trial as we should (pinning our hopes on a mediation when really the endgame was always the trial). Isn't it sad how cynical we get !

I think you're right - you need to proceed as if there will be no mediation, and prepare for trial, and then if mediation produces some results, great.

[sanemom]

I was reading this thread as we are going to mediation this week.  This would be a great thread to have up top (or a similar one with similar posts) as many go to mediation, and it is a whole new game with these folks.  Of course, state by state it is all different. 

BPD mom is trying to push through to a final hearing before reunification therapy between DSD and her dad has made headway.  The court forces mediation before final hearing so here we go.

And I am sure we will get nowhere.  Even though the GAL is going to recommend that no child support be paid until DSD graduates from high school, the fact that the GAL wants her to pay back her old child support and then pay new child support for the younger two that we have, ticks her off.  She does not feel that she should pay any child support (clearly, since she didn't the 9 years dad raised all three kids).  I am sure his ex thinks the judge will side with her so she would rather just let the judge decide than to agree to anything in mediation.

I am thinking that our starting position should just be to agree to the GAL recommendation.  Has anyone had such a recommendation written down prior to mediation?