Do they ever realize THEY cause us to leave?

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

I've seen posts on here asking about if they realize they made a mistake, if they ever loved us, or if they ever realized that we loved them.

How about if they realize that their behavior pushed us away.

Like many on here, I was with her through thick and thin. He behavior just made me numb to. A point that I had to leave.

Do they ever realize that they push us away?

[Iamdizzy]

I've seen posts on here asking about if they realize they made a mistake, if they ever loved us, or if they ever realized that we loved them.

How about if they realize that their behavior pushed us away.

Like many on here, I was with her through thick and thin. He behavior just made me numb to. A point that I had to leave.

Do they ever realize that they push us away?

[Vindi]

yes they may realize they push us away... .but will that change them, probably not... .they may just recycle or promise us up and down that they will change, then the vicious cirle begins again.

Are you in the leaving stage of your relationship?

[turtle]

I can't speak in general terms of what "they" might realize, but I can tell you of my own experience.

I have been out of my BPD relationship for almost 12 years.  

At the beginning of this year, he contacted me.  I am probably in the top 10 promoters of NO CONTACT on this board.  I preach it left and right.  However... .he called me at work (no caller ID) and caught me totally off guard.  Even so... .if I had practiced what I preach, I would have hung up and called the cops.  I was curious, I guess.  Was anything different after 11 years?  Bleh... .I digress.

Anyway... .I did end up speaking with him. At one point in that conversation, he said "I know I owe you a bunch of dough" and "I know I was mean to you." These statements lead me to believe that he knows (at some level) that his behavior pushed me away.  However, HOWEVER... .it didn't take very long for him to shift from that and start calling me names, telling me to go "f" myself, and then hang up on me.

So... .does he realize he pushed me away?  Yes, maybe, who really knows?  :)oes it mean much to me that he MIGHT realize that?  No.  Even if he has had small moments of clarity from time to time, it changes nothing.  His behavior is the same.  Whatever clarity he supposedly had is overshadowed by his cruelty.

So, Iamdizzy -- do you think that if she realized her behavior pushed you away, it would make a difference in your world in some way?  If so, how do you think her realization of that would affect you?

turtle

[Clearmind]

I had my own set of issues - we pushed each other away and was hell bent on trying to change him - just as much as he tried to change me.

[bpdspell]

Iamdizzy,

I left my ex and it was the most painful thing I've ever had to do in my life.  As we recycled his behavior worsened with every go around and I finally had to cut off my hand to save my arm.

Do the every realize that they cause us to leave?

I would say yes. But like Vindi stated causing others to leave is not insight for them. It's the feelings of shame that overwhelm their unstable sense of self that cause them the most pain. It's the feelings of being abandoned and unlovable that hurt them.

Causing others to leave is a cyclical self-fulfilling prophecy for them. The push/pull, I love you/hate you/ leave/ don't leave is all about their shame and emotional instability. They feel unworthy of love but need love to feel a semblance of connection. They are wired to expect chaos, are  afraid of love and they don't trust due to trauma they've experienced before they met us. It's really a sad cycle when you think about it.

What's key here is: instability. They're unstable emotional children trapped in an adult body and have maladaptive ways of coping with their inner instability that make the totality of actions seem malicious.

Spell

[heartandwhole]

Hi Iamdizzy,

I think a person with BPD often understands that his/her behavior influenced the partner's decision to leave the relationship, but it can be very hard to own that, because it triggers feelings of shame and guilt, which lead to the belief that the pwBPD is inherently bad and worthless, which hurts terribly.  So a defense mechanism might be to deny any responsibility, or project those feelings onto the partner, for example.  

These are unconscious defense mechanisms.  My pwBPD was very aware of his issues and nevertheless felt compelled to push me away over and over.  Afterwards, he felt terrible that he had hurt me, but in the moment of dysregulation, he felt he couldn't control his reactions.  It is a sad feature of the disorder.

[Ironmanrises]

My exUBPDgf realized she was pushing me away and told me this... .

when she came back to me after she left me the first time.

That realization only seemed to apply for me to let her back into my life.

That realization only seemed to be present up until she was triggered in round 2 of realization.

And then that realization vacated shortly thereafter.

Disappeared.

Forgotten.

Her words of "i know I was mean to you the first time and was pushing you away... ."... .

No longer applied after the trigger in round 2.

In my case... .

Sure she realized.

But it was momentary.

Easily carried away like a leaf in the autumn wind.

Made no difference.

Behavior was exactly the same.

She left.

Again.

[momtara]

Heartandwhole hit the nail on the head.

These questions can leave us hurt for months and years, because we are still in love with the good side of them. 

It is a cruel disorder to both parties.

Yes, they do know it was their behavior.  My husband has owned up to everything because he doesn't want to lose me.    I am still too scared to let him back in the house though.  So I am leaving him and he is going back to blaming me.

[rollercoaster24]

Hi all

I think our ex's are just as stuck splitting us into black and white as they are themselves and any other people or things or circumstances in their lives. They cannot decide what/who they want, cannot settle to anything, it all changes on the flip of the wind.

Someone posted on this topic that each time they recycled their exBP's behaviour got worse and worse. I can relate to that, and if you think about it, their shame about their behaviour must get worse, but to protect that unstable self they have, they split themselves back to white, paint us as the source of evil and they feel better again.

So in moments they can see the pain they cause us, but then they can split back to hating us again, and believing we are the cause of all their hurt, (see getting rid of us and finding someone 'fresh and new' to make them feel better inside).

Instead of like most of us, where we can own all our mistakes, with an inventory and a willingness to not repeat them, along with a committment to strategies which improve our relationship, they cannot do this because they flit back and forth so much.

I can remember a couple of comments my ex made during our relationship, which were " I'm afraid of the day when you just won't be able to forgive me anymore", which tells me that deep down he still knew he was ill, and treating me badly, but was too disordered to do what was necessary to save our relationship by working on himself and seeking help.

More recently, he mentioned, (after his last assault on me, accompanied by death threats and property damages) that 'he didn't want to be the monster in my life anymore'.

When I said something in response to that, the phone reception went out, and the call dropped out. It was a particularly telling moment, because I was quite emotional still after his assault, and I said that I had always tried to keep focusing on that beautiful part I knew he had there deep inside him, just wishing he would let that part out more often since it is such a treasure to be around.

Such a shame that the phone call dropped out, since by the time he came back on the phone, his manner had changed again to cold and rejecting towards me, (like I deserved his 'punishment for prior crimes to him allegedly).

For me it is a telling aspect, that for the first two years he lived at mine, he often admitted to needing help, and made promises that he would seek it, just 'later'.

Because his behaviour was so destructive and violent, in the end I was forced to ask him to move out, it was bad enough that his conflict/violence need was so great with me, but when it extended to everyone else I knew as well, (especially my daughter and son in law) I knew there would be no peace in this house as long as he was here. If there was just him and I, (as there was for a brief period and ironically this was what he said he wanted too) his acting out would have been worse. This was why I ended up standing my ground against moving my family out in favour of just him and I living here.

He saw it that I was more loyal to my family/son in law than I was to him, so once he moved back to his parents, it was really the slow beginning of the end for us. He gradually got worse and worse towards me, where as before I at least got more rewards, (sex, time and affection) he gave less and less to me, and acted out almost every time I travelled to see him, then when I stopped going 3 days a week, and cut it down to 2 then 1, he just got worse, punishing me and painting us black more often. He also refused to admit any longer that he needed help, in fact mentioning it again, would almost guarantee a threat to your life.

So, I think they do realise they cause us to leave, but like the experts here say, they have to bury that thought and continue painting us black in their minds, so that way they can justify whatever and whoever they are doing.

[Iamdizzy]

very insightful posts. I stumble here and there I'm 4 months out and not a peep. I try to not to think about her and what she is up to or what is she thinknig but sh1t! as a human being I'd like to know that she is at least realizes what she has pushed ME away. I totally understand that she is a mentally ill individual and I truly would not want her to contact me. I would at least like to get the mental satisfaction that she AT LEAST realizes the pain she has caused.

I often come to the conclusion that they split us black to avoid shame. Oh, Iamdizzy is XYZ that's why I'm WAY Better off without him and why this new guy is leaps and bounds better or He deserved that because of XYZ. It's a very juvenile way of thinking. One can often see this behavior when observing young children. However, they may have childlike emotions and rationale, but they're adults... .Don't they realize it?

Do they avoid us because it just fills them with shame? I wish I knew. It would make detaching alot easier.

[turtle]

Do they avoid us because it just fills them with shame? I wish I knew. It would make detaching alot easier.

I am no expert, but I do think they are swimming in shame.

However, having said that... .one of the biggest things that helped me to was stop believing that my x had rational thought patterns.

Your x isn't sitting on this board trying to figure out what happened.  She's off creating new chaos somewhere else.  Creating chaos is how my x coped with life.  Chaos doesn't involve a rational thought process.

Trying to guess how she feels is probably futile.  SHE doesn't know how she feels most of the time because she's likely filled with chaos and confusion.

Does the fact ... .FACT... .that she's mentally ill and does not have a rational thought process help you in your own thinking?

You can't squeeze blood from a turnip.  You are looking for answers where there are none.  If she came to you and said "I am filled with shame and that's why I'm avoiding you," would you believe her?  Or would you think she was manipulating you, by saying exactly what you want to hear so that she could get whatever she wants from you in that moment?

Can't speak for anyone else, but looking for these statements of validation from them, only leads to our own demise.  At least that's how it worked for me.

turtle

 

[myself]

Your x isn't sitting on this board trying to figure out what happened.  She's off creating new chaos somewhere else.  Creating chaos is how my x coped with life.  Chaos doesn't involve a rational thought process... .If she came to you and said "I am filled with shame and that's why I'm avoiding you," would you believe her?  Or would you think she was manipulating you, by saying exactly what you want to hear so that she could get whatever she wants from you in that moment?

Very good points. Have seen the chaos many times. The honesty about it, not so much. Pointing fingers is more like it, or a game of 'hot potato' gone horribly wrong. I've had rages and then silent treatments thrown at me, and when recycles happened there was the minimum of apologies from her end, like a band-aid on a gaping wound, with no taking of real responsibility for what she'd done. She was usually the one who left, because that gave her a sense of control within the chaos (even as she was creating that much more chaos in the process). The times where I was the one who stayed away? That was all blamed on me and my stuff, she played the victim card all the way.

It's taken me many times going around with this to get to where I am today. I stood up for what I stand for, spoke the truth as I saw it, told her that yes my feelings do matter and I would not be living in such chaos anymore. She was more than welcome to join me, and I wish she would have, it would have been good for her to have someone who was really in her corner. But she didn't. She took it as a way to get out and stay out, in a situation where I was the bad guy who said if she can't be real with me then I'd have to be without her from now on. F*ck chaos, there's already too much of it in the world. Inside our own homes we should be able to create some peace, which is what I choose.

She's smart, and has a heart, and I know she knows what she did to make us break apart. That last time we talked, I even told her what she was doing that was driving me away. With a mind that remembers everything perceived that goes against it, she knows. In fact, she already knew before I told her, because she'd admitted in the past to doing certain things just to drive me away ('keep me in line' is how she'd put it).

The shame and the pains keep them from stepping up and being honest with us, even when they know how much we love and care for them. Their feelings for us get turned into a muck that pours out warping the natural growth that could have occurred.

Besides that, having lived their own patterns in these directions from before they ever knew us, yes, they've seen it all before. They HAVE to be aware, on some level.

[seeking balance]

Do they avoid us because it just fills them with shame? I wish I knew. It would make detaching alot easier.

I am going to share a secret with you - detaching is not easy and I have yet to find a secret quick fix "aha" that made me feel like "wow, I dodged a bullet".  This happened over time, with learning about my issues, my core hurts and letting myself understand the real dynamic of the BPD relationship and the DBT tools necessary for any high conflict relationship.

What "should" make it easier is the fact that this is an actual mental illness - I mean, talk about out of our control.

But, no easy way to detach dizzy - just keep moving forward with your own emotional processing.

Peace,

SB

[saw_tooth]

Hi Iamdizzy,

I think a person with BPD often understands that his/her behavior influenced the partner's decision to leave the relationship, but it can be very hard to own that, because it triggers feelings of shame and guilt, which lead to the belief that the pwBPD is inherently bad and worthless, which hurts terribly.  So a defense mechanism might be to deny any responsibility, or project those feelings onto the partner, for example.  

1+.

[frustrated b/f]

I would ask, has he/she ever took responsibly for anything else in the relationship? If not, then I think you know the answer.

My uBPD g/f has never taken responsibility for what happens in her life. It's ALWAYS someone else's fault. Even when she cheated on her ex husband with me, it was his fault.

[Octoberfest]

I would ask, has he/she ever took responsibly for anything else in the relationship? If not, then I think you know the answer.

My uBPD g/f has never taken responsibility for what happens in her life. It's ALWAYS someone else's fault. Even when she cheated on her ex husband with me, it was his fault.

This is interesting... .I can relate.  My BPDex blamed someone else for almost everything... .but interestingly, a lot of times it was no one in particular.  She had a very detached viewpoint of things... .Things just happened, or things were just a certain way, or events that happened because of things she did "just turned out that way". When we would talk after splitting after I would find out about her cheating and I would ask her "Is this what you wanted?".  She would reply "Of course not. I want to be with you.  But I can't so it is what it is".  She said "I can't" because we split because she cheated on me. She just had this whole "I'm consigned to this fate, poor me" attitude going on.  Very bizarre.

[Iamdizzy]

If she came to you and said "I am filled with shame and that's why I'm avoiding you," would you believe her?  Or would you think she was manipulating you, by saying exactly what you want to hear so that she could get whatever she wants from you in that moment?

Turtle,

Amazing words. I wouldn't believe it. I would automatically think "she's trying to recycle me and she needs to have some emotional need met by me" nothing less nothing more.

My BPDex viewed love as something chaotic. To her, falling in love and the feeling associated with love is the equivalent to our feelings about the early onset of the flu. "Ughhhh I think i'm in love/ Ugh... .I think I'm getting the flu". It's something that I realised she feared because she doesn't know what to do/deal with it.

[confusedhubby]

I think that deep inside my pwBPD knows that she caused us (kids and I) to leave her. HOWEVER this is irrelevant because as Turtle said above, they do not have a rational thought process. For a pwBPD, leaving and destroying a marriage / family is viewed as normal. It's there raison d'etre.

[Iamdizzy]

Octoberfest,

My BPDex took blame for certain actions however those where in moments of either clarity OR she put the overall blame on someone else. I did that to him it was bad, BUT! He made me do it.

At the end of the day I get tired trying to make sense of her actions, it's futile and its as if I'm going in circles in my mind, I try to stray away from that. I would at least like to know, although I wouldn't believe her even if she did tell me, that she realizes that she pushed me away. Whenever we had a few days of peace and "love", here comes the passive aggressive hurtful remarks to spark up a fight.

I dunno, I can only speculate that this splitting black is a defense mechanism so they don't feel bad about what they've done. I actually heard what she has said about me and although I understand this is a sick person, I can't help but to get upset.