Staying until wife can start therapy and make some progress...

[A Dad]

Hi all,

I need some advice. I found out that my wife was having an affair around 6 months ago. It has stopped now. I have learnt a lot about myself, relationships and a little about my wife in the process. While figuring out how to cope with it, I recently came across BPD and realised that my wife might have it although she is not as bad as some of the stuff I have read so far. I was still in love with my wife, she said she loves me but was not "in love" with me. Over the last few months I have let go of my love too. Still care about her, but the affair does not bother me, I don't feel responsible for the rest of her life. I feel I could easily let it go and start building a new life for myself.

The complication is of course, the kids. Two of them, 1 and 4. The older one is autistic so any decision we take affects him a lot. Right now, we have decided to live together as "friends" to raise the kids. Of course, in typical BPD fashion that changes every week

I have two questions I hope someone can help me with :-

1. I think it would be best if I can stay with her long enough to get her to go to a therapist, and become aware of her BPD and start recovery if possibly. That way my kids will have a happier, healthier mother even after we split. Am I fooling myself? Should I just end it now while I have the chance?

2. She seems inclined to let me have full custody of the children with her having visitation rights. She does not exhibit the worst of the BPD traits like yelling, hurting etc. So, for example, if I do 5 things right and the 6th one wrong, she does not yell at me, but the disappointment shows clearly on her face.

Would it be better for kids that they stay with me as the primary parent and then go have a fun day with her on the weekend? or should I try to change her mind to accept joint custody?

I hope some of with more experience and knowledge can guide me.

Thank you.

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[musicfan42]

This is my opinion to your questions:

1) I would say end it now while you have the chance. BPD takes years to recover from-you can't just put your life on hold in the meantime. And it's worth pointing out that some people never recover from BPD-that they don't seek help, don't comply with treatment etc.

2) I think that you're very lucky in that your wife is allowing you to have full custody of the children with her having visitation rights. There are so many people on here fighting so hard to get custody of their children. I think that your children deserve to be brought up in a stable environment. You are the more stable parent in this scenario so I think that you could give the children a better upbringing raising them by yourself. You have to put their needs first. Your wife is an adult so it's up to her to sort herself out-she's not your problem! 

I had an unstable father and I only wish that I could have been brought up by my mother on her own! Leaving is definitely the best thing you can do for your children. I developed issues like low self-esteem, depression, anger, anxiety that were directly linked to my father's cruel behavior-you don't want your children to have the same fate! I've had to go to therapy and it's been very painful. I've taken responsibility of my mental health however I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy. Your kids definitely deserve better than that.

I've never believed that a child needs 2 parents anyways... what a child really needs is stability so if they can get that stability from one parent, then so be it... they're not going to be any worse off by not having one parent around. Children need consistency, structure, love, affection-that's what is important, not how many people is raising the child.

[MammaMia]

adad

I am sorry for your troubles.  We are glad you found us, and we will do our best to try to help you.

You suspect your wife is udBPD.   From what you described, it may not be BPD.  There can be many reasons for her behavior, and it would not be wise to base a divorce on an undiagnosed mental illness. 

Have you considered marriage counseling as a place to begin to sort through what is really going on?  A therapist can help you both determine if you want to work on your marriage or walk away.  If the desire to divorce is mutual, and the children will be well cared for, your decision will be easier to make based on a firm foundation of knowledge rather than an emotional reaction to an affair.  Affairs often happen for a reason ... . and they are not always what you may think they are. 

Good luck in your quest for truth.  We will be here for you. 

[A Dad]

adad

I am sorry for your troubles.  We are glad you found us, and we will do our best to try to help you.

You suspect your wife is udBPD.   From what you described, it may not be BPD.  There can be many reasons for her behavior, and it would not be wise to base a divorce on an undiagnosed mental illness. 

Have you considered marriage counseling as a place to begin to sort through what is really going on?  A therapist can help you both determine if you want to work on your marriage or walk away.  If the desire to divorce is mutual, and the children will be well cared for, your decision will be easier to make based on a firm foundation of knowledge rather than an emotional reaction to an affair.  Affairs often happen for a reason ... . and they are not always what you may think they are. 

Good luck in your quest for truth.  We will be here for you. 

Thank you, MammaMia.

I am not going to assume it is BPD until it is diagnosed by a qualified psychologist.

I have gone through all the stages of acceptance of the affair, and we both agree on the immediate reason for the affair. It was me focusing exclusively on what to do for my autistic son who was diagnosed as such last year, and while doing so I neglected her. That is true, and although I did not say that to her the reason that happened was that I felt like I had three children instead of two and felt that I needed to focus on my child first, my wife is an adult she needs to pull her own weight.

My feeling at the end of my dealing with what the affair meant was that if we did not have any children I would have ended our relationship because of the affair. But in this case, I accepted that our lifelong commitment to each other was over but as long as we could work together and provide a happy home for our children, we will do so.

It was only a couple of weeks ago that I became aware of BPD. If indeed it is BPD, then that changes everything. On one hand, it makes it easier to forgive her for what she did. On the other hand, I have to think deeper about whether this marriage can be saved if she has BPD and stays in denial or resists therapy.

If that happens, then it might be better for me and my children to end it now. The reasons being :-

1. I can focus my time and effort on my children especially my autistic son for whom every little gain is a big thing.

2. I can provide better financial security for my children. In the last few months, since I have started to "listen" to her, we have been broke at the end of each month.

3. I will be happier in the long run.

4. I might even find someone else with whom I can have the lifelong relationship that was my dream.

Thank you again for your reply. I am so glad that I found this forum.

[A Dad]

This is my opinion to your questions:

1) I would say end it now while you have the chance. BPD takes years to recover from-you can't just put your life on hold in the meantime. And it's worth pointing out that some people never recover from BPD-that they don't seek help, don't comply with treatment etc.

2) I think that you're very lucky in that your wife is allowing you to have full custody of the children with her having visitation rights. There are so many people on here fighting so hard to get custody of their children. I think that your children deserve to be brought up in a stable environment. You are the more stable parent in this scenario so I think that you could give the children a better upbringing raising them by yourself. You have to put their needs first. Your wife is an adult so it's up to her to sort herself out-she's not your problem! 


... .

Thank you musicfan42. That is exactly how I feel on many days.

They are a few reasons that make me want to stay on with her longer (if indeed it is BPD, and for which I will try to get a professional diagnosis).

One is that she might change her mind about sole custody, sooner or later. If we are going to end up having joint custody one day, then I want that she at least knows and admits the problems she has and preferably gets therapy to fix those.

The second is that the life with her is not as bad as I have read in other BPD cases. If both of us can make a few changes and give a good home to our boys even for a few more years, that might be worth it.

I guess the crucial thing right now is to get a diagnosis as soon as possible and keep myself detached from how she makes me feel right now. I have to keep reminding myself that what she thinks I am is not who I am.

Before this whole thing happened, I was completely dedicated to the future of my family and the care of my autistic son. Now I have made some space for doing things that I like to do, started compartmentalising, stay more in touch with my family and friends. All that is keeping me emotionally stable until I know for sure what is in store for me.

[MammaMia]

adad

You have thought this through rationally and with your children foremost in everything you do.  If your wife has documented BPD, it is a game changer.  I hope she will cooperate with therapy and I understand your concerns about a time frame as pwBPD can emotionally flip on a dime. 

I am afraid musicfan has misinformed you.  Bpd is not a curable disorder.  It may take years for others to learn how to "live around BPD", but it does not go away.  It is a disorder caused by brain dysfunction. 

Regardless of the outcome, the primary burden of care for your children will most likely be yours.  To stay in a loveless marriage is sad but I understand your reasoning.  You are a brave soul, and I suspect you will do exactly what is right for everyone.  Do not forget to take care of yourself as well.  You deserve to be happy.

When things get tough, remember we are all here to support you.  God Bless.

[musicfan42]

adad

I am afraid musicfan has misinformed you.  Bpd is not a curable disorder.  It may take years for others to learn how to "live around BPD", but it does not go away.   

I didn't state that BPD was curable anywhere in my post so no, I didn't misinform adad.

[MammaMia]

musicfan

Sorry, perhaps I misinterpreted your statement about recovering from BPD.  I apologize.

[ZigofZag]

This may sound selfish but I have learnt that you need to put yourself first.

It is clear from your posts that you love your children and so, if you are OK then by default your children will be.

If you try and stay in a loveless relationship or sacrifice your own wellbeing for the benefit of your wife you will become unwell. The opposite is also true; if you and your wife are unwell then this will have a detrimental effect on your children.

So, my advice would be, to help your kids start with yourself, get out and if you can have custody then go for it.

The children need a loving stable environment. I would love to have the option you have, seize it.

Counselling has been mentioned and this is a great bit of advice. Best place to start so that you can work the situation through.

Good luck.

[mamachelle]

Hi adad,



I just want to add my welcome to others here. Lots of interesting topics covered and I think there are a lot of things going on here with your W and marriage that are confusing to say the least.

The complication is of course, the kids. Two of them, 1 and 4. The older one is autistic so any decision we take affects him a lot. Right now, we have decided to live together as "friends" to raise the kids. Of course, in typical BPD fashion that changes every week

I have two questions I hope someone can help me with :-

1. I think it would be best if I can stay with her long enough to get her to go to a therapist, and become aware of her BPD and start recovery if possibly. That way my kids will have a happier, healthier mother even after we split. Am I fooling myself? Should I just end it now while I have the chance?

2. She seems inclined to let me have full custody of the children with her having visitation rights. She does not exhibit the worst of the BPD traits like yelling, hurting etc. So, for example, if I do 5 things right and the 6th one wrong, she does not yell at me, but the disappointment shows clearly on her face.

Would it be better for kids that they stay with me as the primary parent and then go have a fun day with her on the weekend? or should I try to change her mind to accept joint custody?

I am a mom and stepmom. Two of my step sons SS10 and SS15 are on the autism spectrum and have other mental illness issues but they appear more like asperger's or higher functioning in their behaviors to the outside world if that makes sense. Their mom has BPD. My H and I have all 3 of his SS 90% of the time now as BioMom lives in another state. BPDBioMom also had an affair before the marriage fell apart. She also blamed H for her affair. She and he have joint custody but he has always been the 'residential parent'. When H and I got married he was getting a lot of support from his mother and sister but that has now disappeared 6 years later and he and I do all the parenting, make all decisions with the school and medical, deal with all the not fun things and fun things as well that come with parenting. BioBPDMom flies into town and takes the kids for Disney weekends. My H feels as if he can barely have time to get anything done. He and I both have good flexible jobs, but because BioMom pays no support and has abdicated all parental stuff over the years, it is hard on us emotionally, financially, and otherwise. We know we provide the stability and love the kids need and that it is for the best, it's just hard for my H and I sometimes still to understand how utterly terrible his exW is at being a mom.

This is just my story.

It sounds like your W is almost too willing to give up the "residential parent". It seems like she is overwhelmed and trying to escape. That being said it is not certain that pushing her to take more responsibility will make her a better parent especially if she has PD traits of some kind.

Whether or not it is BPD is not the heart of this. She has some BPD traits but the real issue is what her commitment to the marriage and the kids are. This is what she needs to figure out.

Have you considered therapy for yourself?

Does your W care for the kids now in the home or does she work outside?

What level of care do you see your S4 needing and how would you meet that being a single Dad?

Here are a few links that might shed some light and help you move forward:

How To Manage a BPD Relationship/Reducing Anger Using SET

Why are therapists hesitant to give a BPD diagnosis?

Staying/Leaving for the kids?

We are here for you.

Yours,

mamachelle

[Suzn]

Welcome adad 

I'm sorry you've had to go through all of this with your wife. Bpd is a confusing disorder and can be painful for all involved. Bpd can be cured. It takes accepting the disorder and diligence in therapy and treatment by a pwBPD. It can take years for recovery. There are many factors in a successful recovery. There are degrees of severity, possible addictions and possible other mental issues at play.

This link will be very helpful:

Treatment of Borderline Personality Disorder [New]

There are many success stories here (this link is found at the top of the Staying board)

Success Stories

I'm very glad you found us, you came to the right place to learn more.

[MammaMia]

suzn

I am curious as to how many people you know who have been "cured" of BPD?

Improvement is possible with intense therapies including Cognitive-behavioral therapy (CBT),  Transference-focused therapy (TFP),  :)ialectical-behavioral therapy (DBT),  Schema-focused Therapy (SFT), and Mentalization-based therapy (MBT) coupled with medications for other mental illnesses often associated with BPD.   HOWEVER, these approaches all require the pwBPD to be an active, dedicated participant.  Unfortunately, this is rarely the case in real life.  In a scientific clinical study participation is mandatory, but your average pwBPD is resistant to treatment and often fails to even recognize they are ill.  Relapses are not uncommon.

Even with cooperation, the cost of the above therapies and locating someone who is able to perform them can run into hundreds of thousands of dollars and take years to complete with no guarantee of success.  

Often the biggest tool to help those with BPD is for US to become educated about the disorder and for US to work tirelessly to make improvements by enforcing boundaries and coping better.

I do not mean to be rude, but I worry that your statement about a "cure" for BPD is simplistic and fraught with false hope for the average individual.  

Does anyone else out there wish to contribute to this discussion?  :)o you personally know a person who has been completely "cured" of BPD?  

[waverider]

A more accurate description would be symptom free. In the real life support group I attend we occasionally get guest speakers who have been "cured", that is the core thought patterns do not occur. You are right this is probably a minority who achieve this.

There are many who attain a "managed" state for want of a better word. Much the same as a dry alcoholic. The triggers may be there but they have learned different and healthier coping skills so it is no longer causing a problem.

Even without this level of achievement it is still possible for a happy RS with BPD still present if both parties are fully aware and can make allowances,. Much the same as living with any disability.

It is possible to live a happy even if slightly dysfunctional life.

It is not necessary to convert everything into a "normal" life standard in order to be happy. That way of thinking is invalidating to anyone with any sort of disability, mental or physical.

All is not lost whatever the outcome, it is merely a challenge to make it tenable. There is no such thing as a perfect RS. Mental disorders are merely one of many possible complications.

You are also correct in thinking it is one of the hardest things to overcome as the inherent denial and lack of ownership that is part of BPD makes it all that much harder for a suffer to commit to the required level. The catch 22 of needing therapy just to learn the level of commitment to attend therapy.! So it usually does take many failed attempts before any progress is made.

Unfortunately a large number never do step up to it. Equally many RS fail without either member ever being aware that BPD is involved.

Success invariably does mean the non has to work their part out first in order to stop making it worse and be capable of offering a stable support platform before a pwBPD stands any chance of facing up to, and owning their own issues. Our own ignorance of the disorder in effect enables the continuance of denial, preventing any chance of recovery.

In short we have to step up first.

[A Dad]

Thank you all for replying.

I understand that it can't be "cured", and the best you can hope for is that both the BPD and their family learn to cope with it in a good way.

Until now I did not know what the problem was, so at some point I decided that my marriage was in some sort of limbo but right now I needed to focus on my children and hoped that our relationship will be fixed at some point in future. I wasn't happy, but I was satisfied. As I have mentioned, my wife is not as bad as some of the other cases I have read. I guess she had turned it inwards. In fact, I had high hopes that once we moved to a new place closer to her workplace (We did at the start of this year. I discovered her affair soon after.) and once our older child got used to sleeping in his own bed (I tried that a couple of times, but my wife let him back in and I stopped trying), our relationship will improve.

After discovering her affair, I was a complete wreck for 3 months or so. Now I have recovered a great deal and am functioning quite normally. But my marriage as I knew it is over. I realize that our love was not what I believed it was. I loved a woman I did not truly understand, I only loved the idea I had of her, and I had been holding on to that for all these years. She loved an idealized version of me, for a while, and it wasn't me as I truly am. I have to filter all my interaction with her through this new knowledge of where she is coming from. All of this is really leaving me drained. And if I am to make the most of the rest of my life and do the best I can for my children, this situation will have to resolve one way or another. I hope I make the right choice.

[A Dad]

If you try and stay in a loveless relationship or sacrifice your own wellbeing for the benefit of your wife you will become unwell.

... .

I hear you. Living with a woman who once loved you but does not anymore is very lonely. I think it will be easier being alone with my boys.

I asked her the other day - What is harder, living with someone you don't love, or living with someone who doesn't love you. I don't know if it made any sense to her...

[A Dad]

Hi adad,



... .

It sounds like your W is almost too willing to give up the "residential parent". It seems like she is overwhelmed and trying to escape. That being said it is not certain that pushing her to take more responsibility will make her a better parent especially if she has PD traits of some kind.

Whether or not it is BPD is not the heart of this. She has some BPD traits but the real issue is what her commitment to the marriage and the kids are. This is what she needs to figure out.

Have you considered therapy for yourself?

Does your W care for the kids now in the home or does she work outside?

What level of care do you see your S4 needing and how would you meet that being a single Dad?

... .

We are here for you.

Yours,

mamachelle

Hi mamachelle,

Your story sounds quite similar to my own. At the beginning, I also wondered if the affair was just an escape from the reality of a difficult parenthood.

Luckily my wife is a good mother in many ways - she does a lot of fun stuff, she did a lot of work around the house for example setting up their rooms nicely. She does a lot of the housework. The things that worry me is that the children will not have healthy boundaries, and how stable will she stay. For the first time I am realizing how much not understanding where she was coming from, the inconsistencies, the things that did not make sense wore me down over the years. Will the same thing happen to my children if I let her have her way?

To answer your questions :-

I will definitely consider therapy but I guess after I have a made a decision on what I am going to do.

W was a stay at home for mom, but started working around a year ago.

It is too soon to tell how much care S4 will need, his eating/sleeping etc. is ok. He is a happy child and has been making a lot of progress over the last few months of therapy. The biggest problem right now is that he has not acquired language.

I really have no idea how much work it will be to look after them? I used to look after the boys by myself one day a week, and that was quite ok. If we go separate ways, I expect to devote all my time to work, and looking after them. I hope that if I hire a babysitter a couple of times a week to go to gym or do something fun for myself, and my wife takes the boys one day on the weekend (she likes to take them to McD, swimming pool etc.), that will be enough to keep me going

Thank you for the links. I will read through them.

Regards.

[waverider]

I found my best approach was to first of all do what is necessary to achieve a stable state and consistent before trying to "fix stuff", even if some of the things you do are contrary to "best practice". Clarity is easier once you achieved a degree of stability.

It would be a good time to start posting

[L2] Undecided: Staying or Leaving

This will give you a broader range of opinions from others who's situation are more in tune with your own

[A Dad]

Thanks waverider. I have already been reading the Undecided forum, should be posting there soon.

Can you explain a bit more what you mean by stable state etc.? Any links or pointers?

If I can only feel stable after separation (even if temporary), do you suggest doing that before going for BPD diagnosis etc.? The problem with that is the wife running again into the affair partner's arms and messing up the situation even more. I think I only want to separate if I am sure that that will be healthier than for me and my children in the long run.

[MammaMia]

adad

I am so sorry.  You are certainly between a rock and a hard place.

Since your wife recently went back to work, as a woman, I am wondering if this has had an impact on her ability to cope with all the stress in her life. Perhaps she is overwhelmed and depressed.  With a one year old and an autistic four year old,  I would certainly investigate post-partum depression as a catalyst.

[waverider]

Thanks waverider. I have already been reading the Undecided forum, should be posting there soon.

Can you explain a bit more what you mean by stable state etc.? Any links or pointers?

If I can only feel stable after separation (even if temporary), do you suggest doing that before going for BPD diagnosis etc.? The problem with that is the wife running again into the affair partner's arms and messing up the situation even more. I think I only want to separate if I am sure that that will be healthier than for me and my children in the long run.

Stable state refers to the way we interact with each other. Mainly in the way we often spiral into reactive emotional behavior with knee jerk reactions often to small and non critical issues. Becoming unenmeshed and capable of being more long term objective in our thinking. Knowing what we can change and what we cant.

Though in your case it does not seem to be as big an issue as it often is in some relationships.

Whatever your plans or timetable is it must be based on what YOU can control and action, as soon as it requires action from others it can get stuck in a holding pattern and cycling one step forward one step backwards, so that you become frustrated with what seems more like grand talk but little real progress. This very often is the case with pwBPD attending effective therapy, and can trigger worse behavior before it gets better.

A pwBPDs stability is often affected once big changes hit home such as separation regardless of any previous acceptance, as denial of reality is a big part of the problem

Since your wife recently went back to work, as a woman, I am wondering if this has had an impact on her ability to cope with all the stress in her life. Perhaps she is overwhelmed and depressed.  With a one year old and an autistic four year old,  I would certainly investigate post-partum depression as a catalyst.

Hopefully T will help work that out. Maintaining calm helps to not confuse any potential diagnosis

[A Dad]

One last update on this thread

I brought up the topic of seeing a psychologist to figure out what issues if any each one of us might have.

My wife agreed at first while also saying that she doesn't think she needs therapy but she will do it. A few days later, she said that she doesn't want to see a psychologist, but is willing to go for marriage counceling.

My new plan is to go see a psychologist by myself first to get my head clear and hopefully get an indication whether my wife has BPD based on what I describe, and then go for relationship counciling. With any luck, that may lead to her seeking further therapy if we identify an issues.

Thanks a lot for your help, folks.

[MammaMia]

adad

Sounds like a plan.  I hope you are right and that your wife does eventually agree to

therapy.  You are certainly doing everything you can to identify what is going on and work on your relationship.

Good luck to you both.