Court gave home detention - how can we make this work?

[vivekananda]

Told DD that gd's needs will be put first.

Yes!

Gd is vulnerable because of her age. Dd is an adult who could have made different choices and still can make better choices, but choses not to. Yes she is handicapped by BPD but she has had and does have support if she wants to change. She choses not to.

You and your dh are the family unit for gd, you need to protect that family unit, you need to protect yourself. Boundaries give us protection. Clear and consistent. If you give an inch you are saying you are not consistent with your boundary. This consistency is different to being willing to negotiate. Giving an inch is not negotiating, it is sending a message that you can be manipulated into giving in.

If dd is to be successful in being able to live an independent life, doesn't she have to leave that old life behind? Her friends are no friends, they are co enablers. They want her to be there so they can have someone worse off than them, or someone they can share drugs with, they have their own issues and your dd needs people with no issues in her life if she is to stand on her own two feet.

For the sake of your family, your boundaries need to be there, based on your values of respect etc. Your dd is welcome to be a part of that family unit - but she should respect it. If she can't respect it, then you need to stand firm and respect yourself and dh and gd and hold true to your values. You are best off if you let her learn the consequences of her actions. She is best off if you let her learn the consequences of her actions.

I am sorry if this sounds harsh qcr, you know it is just how I see it from a distance, not in your shoes. You are in a no win situation, soothe yourself, develop a plan and allow the universe to continue to spin. I am here, sending you love.

be calm and strong, breathe deep,

Vivek    

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[peaceplease]

qcr,

  I understand how horrible it is to be trapped in car being pestered or yelled at, and even continuing when you have arrived at destination. 

If she gets into Pace program, would they have housing resources? I was so fortunate when my dd was accepted into a program for homeless women.  Even though, she was not technically homeless at that time.  I told her that she needed to be out by a certain date.  And, I can recall being nervous that I would not be able to follow through with evicting her. 

You really are in a no win situation. I am sure that you have checked out every possible avenue for housing for your dd for the next two months.  Hope the "good twin" of dd comes out again soon, and sticks around longer for you.

 

peaceplease

[Verbena]

qcr,

You truly are in a no-win situation.  I wonder how your granddaughter would be feeling right now if her mother had gone to jail after her recent court appearance.  My guess is she would be sad, but very relieved.  I feel so bad for all of you, but especially your gd.  She does not deserve the chaos her mother brings into her life.  You're already seeing the effect her mother's choices have made on her and that damage is done. 

You can't un-do that damage, but you can limit future damage to her by removing from her life the person who is causing the damage.  I know that sounds very cold because that person is your daughter, the mother of your grandchild.  But I don't see any way that your dd is not going to continue to wreak havoc on your gd's life--not to mentions yours and your husband's lives--if she continues to come into your home and be around your gd. 

I'm not saying I could do it, but the best thing for your gd would be for her to not see her mother at all unless there is a huge and lasting change in your daughter's life. 

[pessim-optimist]

DD stated to me that she would be having any friends she wanted at the house, whenever she wants. My response - same house rules apply - maybe a friend can come during the day when gd is at school. WHEW! she got loud.

qcr,

Hind sight is always 20/20. Don't be hard on yourself... .

Do you think that saying something like the below would have been helpful, or would she have gotten loud anyway?:

'We are happy to have you in our home. It is good, as long as it is safe for gd and as long as it is calm and safe for us as well. Do you think you can abide by the house rules you agreed to, or do you think you need to find another option?'

Sometimes we can improve and help our loved one stay calm, sometimes it just isn't in our power. And that's ok.   

I want to contact her. Do not know what, if anything, I can say. How long to wait. I want to detach from her, and stay connected. Is this even possible at this stage? When she settles down, she knows where the probation office is. That is where she needs to check in today or tomorrow. Maybe she can get a friend to walk there with her. It is only a few blocks from the park where they all hang out.

Two things are separate - dd's legal obligations and dd's stay at your home as long as it is safe for everyone. I wouldn't worry about her legal obligations right now - that is her responsibility. How would you have handled the situation before the sentencing, when she lived with you and it seemed to be working?

I have to keep a recovery focus. And DD cannot be a part of this in our home. This is so clear to me in hindsight, or real-sight. How I get caught up in my fantasy-sight.

I wouldn't call it fantasy - it did work for a while, and it does when your dd is trying. The question is - can it/will it continue?

Sending you love. It is a tough situation, take good care of yourself.   

[lbjnltx]

Thursday- you are right about so many things in your reply. I was just thinking this is really about boundaries and how deep the conflict in needs are between gd and dd.

Drove DD to courhouse to meet with PO. She hassled me the whole way - into the courthouse loby even - about having a friend over. This has been the core of all the raging since we but the no friends rule in place in Feb. It started as no overnight friends - gone by 10 pm to catch last bus. Then it shrank to 7 pm to not interfere with gd bedtime. When she returned after being gone all of May it was "no friends at all".

This rule is a desire for dh and I. It is a clear safety need for gd. Gd is extremely fearful of effects of dd having friends over.

I did my best to respond to dd today from a firm, calm place. Not perfect. I sat outside and waited while she took care of business with PO. I offered her an inch - her friend could come today (with his dog!) if he was gone by 3pm. It was already 12:30. So she asked for bus money, which I gave her.

I also told her that we would continue to search for a living situation for her to be working toward her independence. Reminded her of SSI hearing in Oct (though she has no faith it will be positive outcome - this is fourth time she has applied and gone to appeal). Told the limit on financial assistance we could give. To give more means cancelling something in our life - less food, electricity, phone, etc.

I also called her lawyer and said we were still struggling with the friends issue, and who would she suggest I contact about alternative living situation for the EHD. 

Bottom line for me is this is about boundaries, needs and desires. Told DD that gd's needs will be put first. Gd is very stressed and fearful of any of DD's friends at our house. Gd does not even have any friends that can come to our house -- we have to meet at a park or play at the other child's home or in our front yard. This is the reality of our life right now.

Don't really know what of this DD heard. We will see how it goes day by day. DD has to meet her friends somewhere else.

qcr  

Boundary:  none of your friends may come to our home.

Your daughter:  yell, yell, verbally abuse, accuse, blame, guilt trip, whine, complain, become aggressive, etc. etc. etc... .

Boundary:  your friend can come but has to leave by 3:00

This sends a clear message to your daughter that if she is aggressive enough for long enough your boundaries are not solid and she will get what she wants in whole or in part.

These behaviors of hers, accompanied by your porous boundaries are her undoing... .these behaviors are being reinforced and these behaviors will most likely end up as the cause of her failure to comply with court orders and having to leave your home.  Neither of these are the desired outcome.

The question is ... .how will you stop this cycle?

[qcarolr]

It is relentless pounding. I am exhausted.

DD, who I left in town yesterday, showed up via bus at midnight. I had to unlock the door for her. This morning her homeless friend showed up in the backyard at 7 am with his 'companion dog' (certificate so dog can ride bus system. Was in middle of getting gd on bus at 7:30. I see that the shed doors are open and there are blankets from the house in there.

We ALL need to be in r/s with other people. That is our design. DD cannot be downtown with the homeless group and resist temptations. She wants to succed in this probation. Her belief that where she lives she has a right to have friends over has some legal merit as well as meets this basic need.

DD does not have the ability to get a job at this time. She will have resources in the PACE program to acquire these if she accepts and works the mental health/CBT parts first. She has no money resources. Even if she gets her SSI, those are very limited resources. She cannot get her own apartment to be with her friends away from the street; able to have a stable living situation and a safe place for her stuff. We have some resources to pay for an apartment for her for a year lease - it will take away from our retirement and we do not have time to rebuild that. Dh has to talk with his siblings about a distribution of a family trust to do this. The financial planner has offered to open this conversation at the Oct family meeting.

How to balance each person in the household's needs. That was my point to her yesterday.

What is my problem to own here? To have a home for gd without the stress of DD's friends. To have a safe home for gd without grandparents being in continous stressful state. The find peace for myself. To support dh finding peace for himself - this is ultimately his problem to process. I am co-dependent with dh in many ways, though this has been shifting over the past few years. We talk about this, and he participates in the conversations.

What do I want to do today? She if DD will repect and honor the request to have her friend gone before gd gets home from school. If friend is still here, will ask for gd to play next door and confront DD. She will have to suffer the consequences.

The other piece that I have not really shared is that I do trust DD in our home. She respects the upstairs of our home as 'off limits'. She does not steal from us, she does not read my personal stuff in my upstairs office. She is respecting and honoring the need to manage the dogs barking (this is new behavior). She wants to be part of the family, and she needs a safe place to hang out with her friends.

It not a simple situation. I cannot set aside all my compassion and love for any one person in my family - esp. my care for myself. I am leaving soon to meet with my T. The topic is boundaries today. I have been reading "Boundaries" by Cloud & Townsend as a guide.

I really really want to rent an apartment for DD. If we could get money from the trust, we could manage this financially. It would give DD a chance to grow in her independence, yet be close enough to see the dogs and gd -- and her parents. It would add to 'normalizing' our r/s's. Are we willing to take the risks to rent an apartment?

qcr  

[lbjnltx]

Revisit your priorities list.  Make decisions based on the priority... .sometimes we have to make choices we don't want to... .that is a hard truth.

[vivekananda]

Revisit your priorities list.  Make decisions based on the priority... .sometimes we have to make choices we don't want to... .that is a hard truth.

yes. If there are competing priorities, it is hard. Your gd and your dd are competing priorities.

You cannot help either if you jeopardise your own capacity to be a support, whether that is with your own health or your financial situation, now and into the future.

Vivek      

[lovesjazz]

I dont claim to be an expert here, but I do remember a quote I learned in a parenting workshop... .insanity is... .doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. Let your dd figure this out for herself. You have always been there for her and she knows you will bend for her. Try something different... .maybe you will get different results... .as the others have said... .reread your priorities.

[qcarolr]

Thinking about all this. Lots to think about.

Values --- this is where the boundaries come from. Writing a list of our family values. Writing a list of my understanding of DD's values. They are pretty much on opposite sides of the spectrum.

qcr

[peaceplease]

qcr,

lovesjazz is so right.  I keep doing the same thing, too.  Giving into her after saying no, and her persistence wears me down.  I am the only one  there for my dd now.  What is wrong with this picture?  I am the only one that will put up with her.  Things have to change.  I have the power to change what I can on my part.  And, how can my dd respect me when I let her bully me?  Have I created a monster by allowing her to manipulate me over and over?  I need to sit down and tell her what I am willing to do, and how much of my time she can have.  She cannot monopolize it because, her demands require so much.


Your dd is making demands, and you are trying to accommodate her.  Trying to figure out how she can be happy, and you all live in peace.  She has created her situation, and, yet, you are all suffering from it.   What can SHE do to change her situation?


I understand that is very complicated.   And, it is hard to change what we have always done. But, if we don't how can we expect different results?  

peace

ps  Just saw your post. Different values on opposite ends.  Similar here, too.

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[Reality]

qcaroir,

The one thing I have learned from our tragedy is to trust my own instincts.  No-one truly understands the family situation but the people in it.  

Your situation would try the virtues of all the saints together.  It is a very tough one.  Yet, you never, ever give up.  

You have a brilliant mind and a steely determination and an unbelievable capacity to learn and change.  

Dig them boundaries deep into your soul, as you are doing... .

Your thinking seems very measured and realistic in an incredibly complex situation.

Reality is messy sometimes.

Musings... .musings... .

Reality

[Thursday]

Q-

I have read this thread a few times now. Please be patient with me as I put thoughts together.

This thread begins with your offer to allow DD to have home detention and with her spelling out, loudly and angrily, what she will and won't accept while she is being detained. She isn't seeing this home detention as a saving grace, she is looking at it as something she can and will control so that her needs are met and so that she can be as comfortable as possible.

Your compassion towards her is understandable, you adopted her and promised to be her mother. You loved her from the get-go and nothing will change this. The problem, simply put, is that she has no tools to survive in the real world, she is too damaged by her right brain injuries and her due to her BPD and her powerful will to make a place for herself she has become maladapted, a bully, violent, not in enough control of herself to not get into trouble with the law and with people who can hurt her.

This idea she has about bullying to get what she wants works (with you) so why should she change?

You don't want her to have visitors in your home. But, you say, everyone needs friends and while that IS true you still have to look at who her friends actually are and ask yourself if they are safe. I assume they are not, I assume your GD's fears are justified. I'm positive, if she had some really excellent friend who was willing to comply with your rules in order to have a relationship with her, there would be no real issue in fulfilling this need of hers.

We have seen that when you allow your dd to have guests that sometimes these guests become unwanted. Sometimes the person she chooses is someone you like or tolerate as a member of your household because it makes things easier for you.

Since your DD doesn't have what it takes to have peaceful, reasonable relationships in a sustained manner with these permanent house guests your allowance for her to participate in these relationships hinders the peace in your home. So long as you allow her to make these choices out of your sense of her entitlement you will have these issues surrounding you. The peace in your home will further erode and your DD will not learn anything new about how to cope with your relationship.

What has happened more than once is that you see that your DD is happier (and thus more tractable) when you allow her to have someone staying with her in your home. So, you allow it. She is easier when you allow it. Problem is, because of your DD's issues, eventually, the person living with her in the basement doesn't act the way she wants, or they get in a fight, or more people start showing up or someone brings in another dog.

If you really don't want extra people in your home you will have to tolerate how angry this will make your DD. You will possibly have to sustain her anger at you for the duration of her stay. If she escalates into violence, you know the number for 911.

You have written about getting her an apartment as a solution. Frankly, I'm not sure this will do much to help her get control of herself. With your DD so out of control of herself an apartment might lead her to worse trouble. But at least you won't have to daily tolerate her moods, her anger, her violence. I can see how this would be preferable to the present unending toleration of her anger.

Getting her an apartment- is this fantasy or doable? If I were you, before I gave up money meant for my retirement (I mean, we are the same age, you and I, (more or less) and I worry about my and dh's future quite a bit... .we have given up so much of our savings to help my SD... .at some point we really do have to say... .enough is enough) I would really ask myself if this is a quick, easy fix that might end me up in a similar or worse place than I'm in now. What does that apartment look like after eight months of your daughter calling the shots? You've projected this in threads here before and it doesn't sound good, in fact it sounds like you might have some major repairs on your hands, fighting that gets physical, you could end up with folks living with her who are hard to evict. Your DD's neighbors aren't going to be able to negotiate any of this for her.

You, however, will still be there, ready to try to fix whatever she gets herself into.

In the end, what is necessary here? Your daughter needs to either take care of herself OR tolerate your rules. There are nuances and gray area in each choice but this is the crux of the matter. Two choices and both are hers to make.

There is no candy-coating on how difficult it is to deal with borderline personality disorder. What if what she needs is for you to establish a firm boundary so that she can learn how to deal with herself and her choices? And for you to tolerate the extinction burst OR call the police if she is a danger to herself or to your safety. Such a hard, hard truth for you Q, I have so very much empathy for you.  

It is a leap of faith, to leave someone who is so poorly in control of their self in charge. If she is unable to control herself (even after being given some tools (therapy) and knowledge (therapy) then she probably needs to be institutionalized. Without boundaries she will not be able to find solid ground. It can be crippling to walk on shaky ground.

Setting boundaries with consequences will be something she will have to tolerate to be in your home. I wouldn't worry so much about how unhappy she will be to comply on your terms. There will, NO DOUBT, be a huge extinction burst. It's going to suck! It might even be dangerous but I believe you are truly at an impasse.

Use your common sense to look down the road a bit to what your DD might learn about herself and how to cope and how to behave in challenging situations. When you and your husband are gone, who then? Maybe your GD will be old enough then to have a place your DD can crash... .with her pals from the homeless community... .or maybe she is feisty enough by then to have already gotten herself far, far away from the situation, her heart confused and heavy at this unfortunate load.

I believe you can get through this Q. If your daughter can't comply with the consequences you will, at very least, know you have set her up for success and done the right thing. It becomes the right thing, you know, to love them enough to LET THEM GO. Because otherwise, our love can become a trap. I KNOW you wish your daughter all the best that life has. If wishes were raindrops we would all be showered in happiness.

You can't MAKE her behave. All you can do is show her what that looks like.

If you need inspiration, look into your GD's eyes. You know all of this isn't good for her. This continued chaos is not the optimum situation for her success and happiness.

Your daughter has been in jail before and survived.

Your daughter has been homeless and survived.

Your daughter can have firm boundaries and comply. She CAN survive you saying NO to her. If she won't comply, at least two possible outcomes (see above) are known to be survivable.

I know this is all very harsh and tough to hear. Offered to you with   , nonetheless.

thursday

[lovesjazz]

Q,

I HOPE YOU CAN HEAR WHAT EVERYONE IS SAYING HERE.  You cant make everyone happy. Our BPDs once said he lost respect for us because we were too weak to say no after he wore us down. Is there any way theycan recind the court order and have her go tojail? Once she is in your house, she will run the show at everyones expense.especially your gd.

I know this is hard, but let go and let God. He will do what is best, but dont get in His way... .im sure you dont want a repeat with your gd... .stay strong

[qcarolr]

Thursday - so much gratitude for you pulling all my posts together.

If DD has not already been arrested at our house as I type, there will be a warrant out for her arrest. The charge is violation of the no-contact order with exbf"M". He showed up at the door yesterday afternoon as gd was in front yard playing with her friends. I did not engage in anthing more than telling him he could not be here due to no contact order. His reply was DD was contacting him and that is why he was there! I was going to keep things peaceful with all the kids around. DD chose to go on a walk with him. She came and went until she stayed in house about 11pm.

Gd was hypervigilent until I finally got her to sleep, sleeping on the floor of her room with her. She had us triple check that all the doors and windows were locked, the shed and camper were locked, no one was in the yard. She asked me to call the police, and sat beside me while I did, to have them check the park near our house and the open space trail behind our house. I chose not to report the presence of exbf in area to avoid police at our house. This is super traumatic for gd.

This morning gd was off to school on bus. Dh left for work. I logged into bpdfamily.com. The doorbell rings. exbf is there returning coat to dd, totally drenched from rain. Again told him he cannot be here, and DD again appears at the door angry that I am not letting him in. I state calmly and clearly to both of them, if DD wants to be in our house she has to comply with every order of her sentence from last week. I clearly heard the judge state the no-contact order is still in place. DD can follow the rules, including NO FRIENDS AT ON OUR PROPERTY, or she can find somewhere else to be. exbf said "dd, find somewhere else to be." DD said she would go with him and went to get dressed and get her backpack, but he had left.

I offered to drop her in town on my way to work as soon as she was ready. She was combative - verbally trying to defend her position of having friends, her 'rights' in our home, etc etc etc. I stayed calm and said I did not feel safe being in the car with her. She needed to leave on her own. She parked herself on the sofa stating she was not going anywhere. We had adopted her, we were stuck with her. She was never leaving. I said, OK. I am going and you can figure out how to cope.

I drove to the local police station. The officer had already checked the history of our house based on my givng my name. She even remembered when she had been there several years ago. She checked left to check a few things. Recommended protection of gd called for her arrest on the no-contact violation. I agreed and filled out the complaint. The officer will call with the status before I leave work at 2pm to be home for gd's bus. She said to leave the house with gd if DD is there or shows up and then call 911. I am praying praying she is in jail before i leave work.

Dh and I talked last night about how hard making the best choice is for us. How much we hope for dd when she is in a more compliant place. yet this is always on its way to being non-compliant. We have to back each other up in getting dd out of the house. DD is not ABLE TO CARE about our rules or the courts orders. She is very dysregulated, as Thursday has so clearly described. DD cannot come back to our house when she is released from jail. We have to take whatever steps are necessary to make this happen. Gd is the basis of making this happen. Gd is our loving, legal, moral responsibility. She has to have the chance to overcome her fear of losing me to DD's actions.

For me, this is truly DETACHMENT WITH LOVE in action. Love for DD, and she needs a much higher level of services than our home can ever provide. Love for gd, she is a young child already struggling with the traumas that we were not able to prevent - from our own places of dysregulation throughout DD's lifetime. This all was so very clear to me this morning in listening to DD.

This morning I had done my breathing and prayed for courage and strength. I had the 'strength to endure the unendurable that will flow into joy'. I am hopeful now that the joy will be there.

Please keep praying for courage and strength for each member of my family, including DD. It is here for each of us. We only need to ask.

Keep coming back. I need you all.     

qcr  

[swampped]

Prayers going up for all of you, dear qcr.      Swampped

[Thursday]

Here for you... .

       

Very upsetting, very scary.

Let us know you are OK.

Be strong.

 

Thursday

[qcarolr]

Another thought (distracted at work )

The police officer could really validate my position. She is caring for her nephew in her home with very similar circumstances.

The world is in such pain.  :'(

I am in deep sorrow today and great relief that dh and I are able to do what needs to be done.

Like "Kung Fu Panda" says 'It is not about 'I', it is getting done what needs to be done.'  We have the cartoons on our DVR and gd watches one every night before bed.

qcr  

[lbjnltx]

Dearest qcarolr,

It took a great deal of faith, clarity, and courage to do what you needed to do.

God bless you for that!

 


lbj

[Verbena]

qcr,

You absolutely did the right thing.  I was thinking about your granddauhter last night and how she has been forced onto a very fast and very scary roller coaster that no child her age should be on.  Your gd's reaction last night wanting you to check the doors and call the police is further proof how damaging this roller coaster is to her.  She is asking you to get her off and and not make her get back on it, and that is what you are now doing.  I will keep praying for you and your family.  You are stronger than I think I could ever be.

[Rapt Reader]

Dh and I talked last night about how hard making the best choice is for us. How much we hope for dd when she is in a more compliant place. yet this is always on its way to being non-compliant. We have to back each other up in getting dd out of the house. DD is not ABLE TO CARE about our rules or the courts orders. She is very dysregulated, as Thursday has so clearly described. DD cannot come back to our house when she is released from jail. We have to take whatever steps are necessary to make this happen. Gd is the basis of making this happen. Gd is our loving, legal, moral responsibility. She has to have the chance to overcome her fear of losing me to DD's actions.

For me, this is truly DETACHMENT WITH LOVE in action. Love for DD, and she needs a much higher level of services than our home can ever provide. Love for gd, she is a young child already struggling with the traumas that we were not able to prevent - from our own places of dysregulation throughout DD's lifetime. This all was so very clear to me this morning in listening to DD.

This morning I had done my breathing and prayed for courage and strength. I had the 'strength to endure the unendurable that will flow into joy'. I am hopeful now that the joy will be there.

Please keep praying for courage and strength for each member of my family, including DD. It is here for each of us. We only need to ask.

You done good, qcarolr! 

I hope that things are going well today, and that you are able to create that safe space for you, your granddaughter and husband. You did what you had to do, and I commend you on that; I know it wasn't easy! You do have my prayers... .Please stay strong in the knowledge that God will make sure everything happens for the best... .

   Rapt Reader

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[lovesjazz]

Q,

What courage it took to do what you had to. Be in peace now... .God bless.

[vivekananda]

qcr you are in terrible pain, I feel for you.   I hope that the pain shared means it is eased. You are acting with integrity and living by your values doing what you know is right. You may feel crushed or tired, but you are strong. You are a good mother and grandmother and wife and friend.

Cheers,

Vivek      

[qcarolr]

Think I will start a new thread. This one is taking a long time to open in my browser! And besides - DD will not be doing home detention at my house.

qcr