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Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits. Practicing lawyer, Senior Family Mediator, and former Licensed Clinical Social Worker with twelve years’ experience and an expert on navigating the Family Court process.
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Author Topic: Christianity and BPD and Marriage...  (Read 4928 times)
AliveButBeatup
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« on: September 16, 2013, 11:31:27 PM »

I hope the words come together here in a way that can be understood.

First off, the background.  I am a Christian. I married a woman on 12/12/12 who is diagnosed with BPD.  She is a Christian as well.  Prior to getting married there were signs of mental illness.  In hindsight, I should have stopped being with this person at the end of the first cycle.  However, when you are in love and want things to work out, you don't always make the wisest choices.

Being a Christian, the belief is you must honor your vows and be married forever. My wife has physically abused me. Hitting, slapping and scratching.  I have filed for divorce, but still pause with moving forward with the divorce. I met with a pastor and as you might expect, his view is to keep the marriage intact through prayer and asking for God to heal the person with BPD.

It is a very difficult thing to think through. On the one hand you have someone who may possibly hurt you badly as the physical violence escalates, but on the other hand I have seen people change through prayer and resolve.  It is important to me to honor my marriage vows, but at what cost?

I no longer live with her. Things have been much more peaceful for me. But I do miss her and care for her. I don't miss the craziness and fear of escalating physical abuse.  I have been attending church and bible studies more frequently since this relationship has been on the skids and I have been feeling a force of working on reconciliation. Just about everything in me says this is a bad idea, but I am feeling a draw.  Perhaps it is a short lived weakness that will dissipate.

Does anyone have thoughts and comments on the above?  Has anyone else been down this path themselves?

ABB
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« Reply #1 on: September 16, 2013, 11:39:06 PM »

Being a Christian, the belief is you must honor your vows and be married forever. My wife has physically abused me. Hitting, slapping and scratching.  I

have filed for divorce, but still pause with moving forward with the divorce. I met with a pastor and as you might expect, his view is to keep the marriage intact through prayer and asking for God to heal the person with BPD

ABB

Hi ABB.  Try not to mix up the issues.  Being a Christian, praying for your wife's healing are separate from the issues of divorce.  Abuse is abuse and God doesn't want anyone to be abused. 

Remember God gives us Free Will so you wife may choose to ignore her diagnosis.  She may not accept the necessary help to cope.  You can't control that and God doesn't decide since he gave us free will. 

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« Reply #2 on: September 17, 2013, 01:25:03 AM »

I understand EXACTLY where you are.  I posed this same question when I first joined this board around 2+ years ago.

I recently finalized my divorce (1 month ago).   

This is a VERY serious decision for those of us in this position who hold to these beliefs/values.  I went back and forth for a long time and finally got some clarity that I had peace with.  The BEST book I have ever read addressing this issue is "Boundaries in Marriage" (Christian).

#1 - If your spouse is physically abusive or abusive in ANY way - you CAN separate from them without filing for divorce.  In fact, you SHOULD!  Sounds like you are already in this place.  NOTE: Be sure your church is giving you the SAME advice they would give a woman.  For instance, if a woman went to them about physical abuse or emotional abuse in the home and they would tell her to get out of the home - but not tell you as a man the same thing, there is something wrong there. 

#2 – After separating (which it appears you have done) then define the boundaries and expectations for reconciliation.  Also boundaries for communication between the two of you while separated that lays out what type of behavior you will and won’t tolerate.  This could come to you going NC at its extreme level if she will not stop behaving in toxic ways.  Again, this doesn’t mean you have to go forward with the divorce as of yet.  During this stage you continue praying, fasting, attending church, reading material, journaling & listening for direction from God.

#3 – Remember if the other person wants out, to walk away, the word says we are to let them go “in peace.”  As in, you make all efforts to keep the relationship intact while having a heart to see it reconciled and work on yourself – but if they are not willing and walk out, that is NOT your fault.  Note: “Making all efforts to keep the relationship intact” DOES NOT MEAN you tolerate abuse, take on responsibility of the other person, etc.  You can stay committed to your marriage WHILE drawing whatever boundaries necessary.

#4 – If the other person starts working toward meeting the expectations for reconciliation, great.  Go forward with as much as you are comfortable.  You DO NOT have to move back home or get too close in the relationship until you feel peace that the abuse will stop, etc.  This right here tells you that it is highly unlikely you will get to the phase with these people.  However – it is possible with God if they are willing.  God doesn’t expect you to move back into a potentially toxic situation.  As the leader of the home you are actually doing more GOOD for the family and increasing the chances for a positive outcome by setting firm boundaries to lead your wife.

#5 – The final outcome.  By setting all needed boundaries and separating yourself while praying and asking God to lead you and bring this situation to a head – things will ultimately sort themselves out.  A few outcomes are possible.

A.) Your wife will start moving toward the relationship and the necessary counseling/whatever other requirements you lay out for reconciliation.

B.) Your wife will walk away or be the one to initiate divorce after a time frame of you sticking to your boundaries and distance being unwilling to reconcile until these steps are taken.  At that point you are NOT the one divorcing your wife.  SHE IS THE ONE who has decided not to have a healthy relationship that operates in LOVE.  You are free in this situation.  (Again, as long as your heart is TRULY open to the relationship and your expectations/requirements are based in love, etc.)

C.) Your wife will go on for a long period of time without any resolution either way.  At this point you will have to pray and wait to see if God gives you peace to actually be the one to leave the relationship.  I think there is a point where that can happen, as it is possible for the other spouse to “abandon” the relationship even though they are not actively pursuing divorce.  (Of course if they pursue another relationship while you are in this separation mode you are then free to initiate the divorce as well.) 

This is what I gathered to be the most helpful counsel after seeing different counselors, praying and reading many Christian resources.  That book truly is the best – read it and it will help you get really clear about a plan of action and get peace about the route you are taking.

My H ultimately pressed for the divorce harder than he ever had before in all his threats and did not back off from it.  I expressed many times that while I would not go back into an abusive situation (I had to move out due to physical abuse), I was praying for us and was willing to work on the marriage from a distance if at any point he decided he wanted to put the divorce on hold, go back to church and start attending counseling.  He never did, at least not this last go round.  I truly believed God honored my requests and allowed my H to not “turn back temporarily” as he always did before in other situations since he was not, and allowed his heart to stay in that place long enough to actually finalize the divorce which set me free from the yo-yo and games. (Basically I had asked the Lord to not allow him to play games with me or not have a "false turn around" with a temporary feeling that wasn't going to last as it was unfair and toxic for me to keep going through this.)

I had also asked the Lord to remove all burdens and the extreme grief and pain of divorce with the soul/spirit ties to my H as I did not want the divorce and had gone through so much torment, abuse, rejection, and pain trying to hold onto my marriage for so long.  I prayed the Lord would totally severe every tie to my body, mind, soul & spirit to my husband supernaturally if the divorce did come about so I would not be devastated as I felt like I had done nothing wrong.  I asked that He would supernaturally “Heal my broken heart and bind up my wounds” as the word says and also that he would “carry my grief and my sorrow” so I wouldn’t have to as the word says and He did it!  I am almost in shock at how relieved and at peace I feel now that I am out.  While SAD, I am not devastated.  I do not ache for him to come back, I have excitement about the future, etc.  I don’t believe that we have to grieve the same as the world grieves.  I believe God’s supernatural power can set us free in our souls – this was one of the main things I focused on in prayer and quoting those specific types of scriptures over myself – and God came through for me. 

He will come through for you.  He will NOT leave you in darkness and confusion, nor will he allow you to be destroyed by this if divorce is the route your wife chooses.

Just stay committed to Him and what's right, and He will move your wife.  He won't override her will, but he will coax her as it is His will your marriage stay intact.  And if in her will, she will not submit, he will move the situation to bless you and set you free as HE IS STILL FAITHFUL.

I pray peace, healing, restoration and clarity for you.  I know all too well where you are.  Remember, God is not the author of confusion and devastation. 
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AliveButBeatup
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« Reply #3 on: September 17, 2013, 06:17:24 AM »

Lady31, I want to thank you for your excellent and detailed post.  I have read through it many times absorbing each of the points and thinking of where I am with things.

I had spoken with my attorney back in May and filed for my divorce at the end of my wife's last cycle.  She has not been served yet which kicks off a six month waiting period in the state of California.  At the end of that last cycle my wife starting improving and we were in a period of reconciliation up until about 2 weeks ago.  A chain of events happened one day and it was such I decided to stay at my safe house (I have maintained a second residence due to the nature of the relationship). My wife showed up at 10:30 at night pounding on my doors and windows and yelling at me that I had another woman.  This has happened before and I had let her in. That was a fiasco last time with her essentially holding me hostage while she held a kitchen knife against her wrist and told me she was going to kill herself.  Instead of going through that again, I called the police and they escorted her off the property. To tell you the truth, it felt good. I felt like I was getting a measure of control back in my life.

She became very, very angry that night in her text and phone calls to me later that evening.  That kicked off another period of separation. I have blocked her phone calls and text messages.  We exchange e-mails to communicate. I think people can get very angry when a spotlight is on them and others see their crummy behavior.  I am glad I called the police.

ABB



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Lady31
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« Reply #4 on: September 17, 2013, 12:24:31 PM »

ABB,

Oh, I remember reading that post about her threats with the knife I think.  I didn't realize that was you when I read this post.

You obviously have to be very careful with your decisions here as she possess dangerous/violent potential.  In my opinion would need some serious counseling, perhaps meds also and then would need to show a long period of stability without issues before considering moving back in together or staying in the same home at all.  While you are in this place it may seriously benefit you to study spiritual warfare/attacks (not sure if your church discusses this) as well as the benefits of fasting (doesn't have to be long fasts).  This is not some little issue you are dealing with in the spirit realm.  Guillermo Maldonado in Miami has some very good books on deliverance.  This can refer to demonic spirits, but also there is internal healing/deliverance of the soul from deep wounds that cause these types of disorders.  If God can heal the body - he can heal the soul.  Word says he "restores our soul", read on afflictions of the soul, etc.  He wishes that we "prosper and be in health, even as our SOUL prospers."

I think the way maybe to look at it, since you do say you feel a pull to reconcile, is to decide not to decide right now.  Probably the best steps for you right now are to focus on your own growth, keep praying, just going forward with communicating your ultimate desire for the relationship and laying out all expectations/requirements for that and watch how things progress.  Only growing closer in communication (like back to phone calls or meeting for dinners, etc.) after certain progress markers are met.

You don't have to hurry and get the divorce or anything.  Nor do you have to hurry and get that 6 month time ticking.  6 months really isn't a long time.  You can take your time and work on yourself, pursue God and pray for her WHILE keeping peace.

My problem during the "process" part was that I felt anxious about the outcome.  I was like, What is going to happen already?  I felt like my life was on hold.  Then I just started saying "Lord, I trust you.  You will work it out in the right time.  It's not my job to work it out, figure it out or fix it.  That's your job.  So I release it to you and I keep operating in love as you take care of this for me."  Then stick to your part of the action plan and watch him begin to bring things to a head.

When I focused on just having peace without having to have the answer immediately and without me being the one to figure it out - I was able to relax in the midst of the chaos and be okay with that part knowing it was a phase and would eventually resolve itself.

It did.  I was EXTREMELY blessed through the divorce when I could very easily have been devastated.  (Emotionally, financially, etc.)  I even had to walk away from the business we built together, but God has REALLY blessed me.

I was thinking about that last night after reading your post.  It's wild looking at the past situation from the other side already seeing how God brought me through it, and how he blessed me - and how all the things that looked like they could crush me God worked for my good and protected me.

Thank God I'm his kid is all I can say. Smiling (click to insert in post) Your are too.
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« Reply #5 on: September 17, 2013, 04:11:23 PM »

Hi ABB, I took my vows seriously, too, and stayed in a 16-year marriage to my uBPDexW long past what was healthy for me.  It nearly destroyed me emotionally, physically and financially.  We were formally divorced last Spring and I am slowly beginning to recover my old self again after years of turmoil and abuse.  Not fun, believe me.  I think martyrdom is fine for Saints, but for the rest of us regular Joes, it's a losing proposition.  You seem to have a good handle on all of this and hopefully can avoid following in my footsteps, which lead down a path that I don't recommend.  Lucky Jim
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« Reply #6 on: September 17, 2013, 04:41:55 PM »

I married a woman on 12/12/12 who is diagnosed with BPD.  She is a Christian as well.  Prior to getting married there were signs of mental illness.  In hindsight, I should have stopped being with this person at the end of the first cycle.  However, when you are in love and want things to work out, you don't always make the wisest choices.

"However, when you are in love... ." This is probably one of those lines that we wish were true and in any relationship unfortunately love is not enough. Love does not prevail and if we enter a relationship where we know a mental illness is prevalent - how we can expect different. Acceptance is no doubt a term you are use to hearing - we cannot change them.

Once a relationship ruptures due to mental illness - christian or not - it cannot be saved - because - you cannot save another they need to save themselves.

Belief that love can prevail

Also my ex was not heavily into religion when I met him - he is now! Understanding the nature of BPD will help you detach and understand why bit ticket items like Christianity does not save a relationship.

You my friend, its unfortunate that your beliefs were compromised in this marriage - be true to you and find a compatible mate who also follows the same path.
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« Reply #7 on: September 17, 2013, 06:02:32 PM »

I am a Christian too and I stayed 20 years.  I did so much praying, pleading and begging for my h to change. We went to various Christian councilors and while he would admit his anger issues and alcoholism there was never any progress made.  After the divorce he went full blown crazy with women, men and porn.  Nothing I could have imagined yet God revealed that this was the "truth" about him and he probably had always done this throughout the marriage.

 I don't believe God wants us to be physically and emotionally abused, threatened, lied to, degraded and disrespected.  I know he is sick, my 20 years with him didn't change anything.  I do pray for him to accept Gods love and forgiveness but that is all I can do.  Just found out sunday he is getting remarried-it is killing me but I know he will treat her the same way.  He is incapable of acting any other way.
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« Reply #8 on: September 17, 2013, 06:12:36 PM »

I have studied the bible extensively and found there to be only 2 ways for a scriptural divorce.   Either they need to die or commit adultery.

Matthew 19:9

Romans 7:2,3

It does however permit a separation in these type of situations.

1 Cor 7:10, 11

I am in the same boat and really want my marriage to end.    I will remain separate and won't file for divorce.     She may file the divorce still.   Even at that point it is only legal before the laws of the land.    I would have to wait until I can prove she is cheating or remarries to be scripturally free.

Matthew 19:9 is a key here.   You could also become an adulterer.

It is a hard spot to be in and a test of faith.   I am tempted to hire a PI to prove her cheating.   She claims she will at some point as she has to try out her new man before marriage for at least a year.   She is a major sex addict so I really can't believe she hasn't done the deed already.   I have no proof though either way.
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AliveButBeatup
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« Reply #9 on: September 18, 2013, 02:14:10 PM »

Wow --- so many thoughts and points of view!  The one message amongst them I did not see is someone saying, God's hand was in our relationship and the situation improved.

A further update.  They have a 4 day bible study happening at a

church I very recently started attending.  I invited my wife to the bible study/service yesterday evening.  She said yes and we had a pleasant evening together.  I went to her apartment to spend the night.  Fighting ensued this morning regarding a variety of subjects, but didn't get out of hand and it actually ended up being a good morning when we went out to breakfast together.

One item that did come up for which feedback is invited is the following. When she kicked me out last time, she left my stuff outside the apartment.  Amongst my items were a couple of BPD self-help books. On a subsequent trip to her apartment, I returned the books.  She was not there when I made that subsequent trip (her children were).

When I saw her last night, I asked her for an honest answer regarding what she had done with the books.  I was just curious. She said she is being honest. She threw them out.  I didn't say much. Maybe, an "Oh".  However my head was thinking is this denial or what was the reason for doing that. It is one thing to just keep them and not read them. It is another to throw them out.

We had a further discussion about BPD this morning.  She exclaimed to me she doesn't want to be labelled.  That was she has is sin and by praying, it will be removed. I am considered to be a very smart man by many.  However, with what she says and how she acts I can be so dumbfounded by.  My jaw gaping and by brain doesn't have a response.

It kind of reminds of the joke where someone is on top of the roof of the home where there is a flood. Two rescue boats come and a helicopter on 3 different occasions. Each time the guy says no, I don't need your help, God will save me. The guy drowns and gets to heaven. He is mad at God for not saving him. God says I sent you two boats and a helicopter.  I equate that to ignoring the resources before them while they wait for help in their predefined concept of what help should look like.

Your feedback please... .

ABB
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suffering_parent
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« Reply #10 on: September 18, 2013, 02:41:52 PM »

Spirituality can certainly help the situation.   I know it helped my wife a lot.   The fact is though it won't overcome their mental illness.   BPD is rooted in problems with the brain.   Look at Jesus own words and Matthew 9:12:

On hearing this, Jesus said, “It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick."

I have heard your illustration before and I would agree with it.   Another good one is without getting medical help they are driving a car without a steering wheel.

They need to be treated by a medical professional who understands the illness.   Even then it is very difficult to treat.    The biggest challenge is to get them to be willing to get that help.
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« Reply #11 on: September 18, 2013, 03:06:39 PM »

ABB-  I know that God hates divorce but it was my bad decision to marry in the first place.  I saw the signs.  I took plan B when plan A was probably a Godly man.  But through all my human mistakes I believe God forgives me and wants me to move forward.

My divorce was the most painful thing ever to happen to me, still is, but I also see God loving, protecting and providing for me.  I feel I am better off financially than I was and I kept my house.  It is a big struggle for me but I care for my 92 yr. old mother and also work from home.  Neither things I could do if I had to move out.  I have to daily trust God and I know he is faithful.

I have a lot of Christian friends, single now, that did not have any choice in ending their marriages.  We share our burdens together and encourage  one another.  When you share your story you may be surprised how many others struggle or have been abused. . God can use me as a single woman to help others.

Christian or not it makes no difference. BPD is a mental illness, the whole package is denial.  They are incapable of love and that is what God intends for a marriage.
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AliveButBeatup
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« Reply #12 on: September 18, 2013, 03:40:24 PM »

This morning's fight/conversation. I am to give up my safe house (I am "doing" multiple women there --- yeah right) and she is going to give up her apartment and we will rent/buy a house together. I think if I follow that through, I will be living out of the trunk of my car next time she throws a tantrum and demands I leave.  That is supposed to be my leap of faith to do that. Maybe I should just go straight to the leap part and find a bridge Smiling (click to insert in post). We must keep our sense of humor about things, right?

We are supposed to see a pastor tomorrow for a discussion about marriage and our situation.  One of the posters at this thread said the church should give the same advice to a man as a woman who is being physically abused.  Get Out!  I am curious as to what the pastor will say.

I still remember what the therapist said who diagnosed my wife as as having BPD.  She initially agreed with my wife that it was wrong that I have another house prior to the diagnosis. On a subsequent meeting when I met her alone after the diagnosis, she said it was bad advice from her and a good idea to keep the safe house. Go figure!

ABB
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Lady31
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« Reply #13 on: September 18, 2013, 04:32:02 PM »

ABB -

Sadly, many Christian churches/counseling don't know much (if anything at all) about mental illnesses and even demonic oppression (in some cases.) 

If the pastor starts in with how you should come from a place of unity and not be separated (move back in with her) she will more than likely use that to try to control you with and push you into unhealthy decisions.

I think I would obviously pray beforehand for the Lord to lead and guide the pastor and would open his eyes to truth so he would not be deceived by your wife or the twisted explanations she will mostly likely to try use.

I would also be sure to state very clearly and without holding back to protect her - all the things that have transpired (the knife incident, etc.) And of course what your plan of action is and the kind of help you expect her to get.

And remember, always be willing to submit your heart to authority and be open to their guidance BUT don't go against your spirit.  If after hearing the incident with the knife you have counsel to move back under the same roof with her - I PERSONALLY would probably seek some different counsel.  She will probably try to downplay all this.

I still recommend you read that book Boundaries in Marriage.  AMAZING book, most helpful tool while I was going through this particular issue HANDS DOWN.

As far as the other house issue.  I do think it is wrong to have an "escape plan" like that when you are married, EXCEPT when you are dealing with something like this.  Under normal circumstances, when you marry, but keep a house you can "run to" when things aren't going as planned - I would say would be absolutely wrong and conveys you are not committed to your marriage.  It doesn't sound like that is how any of this went down for you in your case.  It will send a trigger to her though because sadly with her illness she most likely feels you are abandoning her and are not "all in" since you keep this "separate option."  It's going to take some serious working, and only if she is really willing.

I would say that if you truly would like to give the marriage a shot - then while conveying all the expectations for getting help, having a long period of stability before moving back in together would even be considered, etc. (insert whatever it is for you) - ALSO HIGHLIGHT STRONGLY how much you love your wife, are committed to the marriage and really hope that she will follow through with getting help so you can be reunited as that is your deepest desire.

Blessings to you.
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« Reply #14 on: September 18, 2013, 04:46:13 PM »

AliveButBeatup are you working towards detaching or are you unsure if you want to go back into this marriage?
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AliveButBeatup
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« Reply #15 on: September 18, 2013, 05:31:34 PM »

Folks give wonderful advice on here. Sometimes I just don't know which direction to turn and a nudge or an opinion or an experience can be so helpful.

Regarding the second house. Do you know how much it pains me to keep the safe house?  It is a symbol of the problems of this marriage.  Never mind the financial stupidity of keeping it. I could be renting it out.  During the early part of our relationship, the plan was to rent it or sell it.  As the cycles of honeymoon/problems/goodbye ensued, it became clear that I should keep available.  The second house is a point of arguments and I clearly see the point on the other side. My wife can make very valid and compelling points about doing something with the safe house. Almost to the point I am sold on making it available to rent.  However, she also made valid and compelling points to get married as well.  Like we would stop fighting once we got married. Still fighting and arguing, just something different.

One thing about my wife that makes this difficult is she is able to very clearly assess what is wrong with her and tell you about it. She is pretty accurate in her self-assessment.  At this point you think, hey she is acknowledging something is wrong and we are getting somewhere.  She acknowledges what she does to me is horrible and destroys the relationship.  However, follow through and doing something about it is where things go haywire. This acknowledgement has happened numerous times.  I seem to be reaching a point where I think while a zebra almost looks like a horse, it will forever be a zebra if that makes sense.

She is going to something called Celebrate Recovery. She seems to be even more aware of her problems.  I encourage her to go as I see it to be a positive direction. However, information is being provided, but I see a misapplication of the information.  The latest tangent is about setting boundaries.  She is in a group of victims and abusers.  I think she aligns herself with the victims and I am the abuser.

I fear we are going into the honeymoon phase of the cycle (again).  I was moving forward into the NC mode and preparing for divorce. I met with a pastor. He gives me pause for thought and now a hard spiritual journey appears to be ahead.  God help me to keep my sanity, my self-respect and my spirit intact.

ABB
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« Reply #16 on: September 18, 2013, 06:55:20 PM »

I attended Celebrate Recovery for a while until work schedule made it difficult.  It is a Christian version of AA.  Any addiction along with co dependency (my deal).  I see it as a better place for you-does your wife have addictions?

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« Reply #17 on: September 18, 2013, 07:07:51 PM »

I attended Celebrate Recovery for a while until work schedule made it difficult.  It is a Christian version of AA.  Any addiction along with co dependency (my deal).  I see it as a better place for you-does your wife have addictions?

She was drinking. It appears she has not had a drink in 2 months. That has been a help. I used to just leave the premises after she had a couple of drinks. You could watch the transformation before your eyes.  Kind of a morphing from the bad to the bad and ugly.  She has improved on that front and the really horrible cocktail of BPD and alcohol is now just the issues of BPD.  She used to tell me she could have a couple of glasses of wine and it was OK. Of course they were VERY BIG glasses.  I give her credit that she seems to have controlled that demon.

Can you tell me more about CR?  I have only had her version of what goes on there.

ABB
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« Reply #18 on: September 19, 2013, 01:49:35 AM »

ABB,

While it is good to seek counsel (which is many forms - reading books, seeing your pastor, posting on this board, etc.) - you have to be careful with CONFUSION.  God is not the author of confusion.  I am saying this because of what you said about listening to different view points, being in one place/preparing for divorce, then changing opinion, etc.

I went through this EXACT same thing also.  I am person who believes in great faith.  There are some Christians on this board, so some of the viewpoints I got back were at least Christian based.  HOWEVER - reading too much on this board without the proper filter of faith can make you have thought patterns and beliefs that are lacking or void of faith in God's ability and willingness.

When I read the Word, I EXPECT to manifest what I am reading.  I BELIEVE the Word. SO.  With all the doom and gloom on the board of how BPD is next to impossible, or will take years and years of counseling and that would probably be managing it at best - ETC. I DON'T COME INTO AGREEMENT WITH THAT.

I RECOGNIZE that is the reality for MOST.  But I KNOW that God is TOTALLY AND COMPLETELY CAPABLE WITHOUT BREAKING A SINGLE BEAD OF SWEAT able to straighten a persons soul and wounds out and completely heal them.  COMPLETELY.  NO PROBLEM.  Not only that - he is TOTALLY willing.

So I am very careful when I read on this board.  The people here are AWESOME and so supportive, and it gives great insight into how this "illness" (really BPD is just soul wounds that create a certain type of belief system and coping mechanisms) functions & what forms the root of it - it is absolutely absurd to me to buy that God can't straighten this out like he does everything else under the sun.  That's ridiculous if you look with SPIRITUAL EYES.

However - that does NOT mean that is what will actually happen.  (Seriously get that book to help get VERY CLEAR and out of confusion if you are in it.)  There are several reasons for this.  I did not see that manifest in my marriage - I DID SEE A MIRACLE though. That’s a whole other story in itself. 

Anyway – only take in what lines up with the Word.  Eject everything else.  Regarding CR – I think it would be reasonable to expect that she will need more personal and extensive counseling than that.  (I may not know exactly what they do there – but I think it is more a group setting like the other poster mentioned – like AA.)  I would anticipate that she would need private counseling (for BPD or by a T that specializes in BPD) as well as you two attending counseling together.  I would also if I were you (I did this too) be studying myself on Christianity and mental illnesses.  The Soul is the mind, will and emotions of a person.  The Word talks a lot of about the vexed soul – and about healing.  I put more weight in God’s form of psychology that what we consider psychology as his Word trumps it all.  So I would make it MORE important to get this knowledge and help than the other, but DO ALL.  There is much wisdom in all of it.  Just as God gave Doctors the ability to help us get well. 

Anyway – clear out confusion, get that book, map out an expected plan of treatment, establish your boundaries and communicate them along with that treatment plan, immerse yourself in the Word and study all you can regarding mental illnesses and soul afflictions.

Remember – you will not get a different result without a new plan of attack DON'T LET HER CONFUSE YOU HERE OR DISTRACT YOU.  Her going to a group CR is not going to get down to her core.  And without any new plan you have 100% chance of failure.  I wouldn't back off the treatment requirement. Would need before even considering working on the relationship – there would be no point of even trying to work it out without it.

 
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« Reply #19 on: September 19, 2013, 02:39:24 AM »

I had the same "moral" and religious problems as you.

My Pastor told me that there are some cases where the Church recommends separation, the case of mental illness is one of them (he had knowledge about BPD, he is a philosopher and has worked with psychologist and psychiatrist).

I stayed with my BPDexW for 13 years.

He told me: you did your best, it's not up o you to heal your wife, you're not a psychiatrist. You have no moral guilt (no sin), you didn't ask for it. God doesn't want to make you unhappy, God is love.
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« Reply #20 on: September 19, 2013, 10:06:09 AM »

ABB- CR is a Christian based 12 step program.  There is a group share and worship, testimony time and then we broke up into small groups.  We used workbooks which are great. You can buy the materials online. I pull mine out every week- the bible verses are a lifesaver to me. It keeps me focused on the things I need to work on as a codependent.  It opened my eyes to why I pick that kind of man in the first place.

My xH is an alcoholic.  Yrs back he had speeding w/ open bottle traffic violation  .  I just learned a month ago from someone who had been a facilitator in CR that my xH had signed up to go but never showed up.  This was back in2003.

Really the alcohol was not the problem- he could go a couple yrs without drinking.  (Well at least I thought so)

Like others here say, BPD is the problem. The addictions manifest out of that.  I was always baffled as to why my x acted the same way-alcohol or not. Now I know why.  I first stumbled on BPD because I thought he had multiple personality disorder and I looked up mental illness,  BPD hit me like a brick.

A lot of Christian councelors don't understand BPD and my xH was so good at deception and looking put together.

Mostly ABB take care of yourself, go where you feel loved and respected.  Be still and listen to God.  He is peace and calm.

I have that now in my life and I am so much healthier. We cannot  heal others but we can begin to heal ourselves with Gods grace and love.
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« Reply #21 on: September 19, 2013, 10:36:58 AM »

There has been much very good advice given here.

I struggled for a long time with the Moral question of filing for divorce from my exBPD. The church where I was attending Divorecare classes told us to always consider reconciliation regardless of what had transpired and caused the demise of the marriage. They even recomennded to do that if adultery had been committed as there was in my marriage. Honestly I have to disagree from a purely Biblical perspective. Because of the adultery, I have to divorce her (and did) to maintain a Christian Morality. So while I believe in rependence and forgivness I could not condone the adultery be accepting it without divorcing her. So in that sense I was lucky as 'she' made the decision by her actions and what I had to do was just a result of that. It became less of a heart decision and more of a Moral decision

One thing I have noticed and learned with BPD is they are VERY good at making/creating/forcing change in those around them but doing that seems to be an impossible thing for THEM to do.

Her trying to get you to leave the house and and her leaving the apartment to centralize sounds too coercive to me and is a  Red flag/bad  (click to insert in post)    Sorry to say that but I have to be honest drawing on my experience. Making changes is great but I would think she would have to be the first to make changes, especially since she has been physical with you

With mine, us moving in together and getting married was the 'solution' to our problems... .It only amplified them

Good luck and it sounds like there is still some hope that things can work out
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« Reply #22 on: September 19, 2013, 04:23:34 PM »

Lady31, you are referring to the Boundaries in Marriage book,

correct?

We met with the pastor today.  In some ways I felt good about was being said as it mirrored my thoughts.  The pastor's answer about us living in two separate households had me concerned in relation to living with physical abuse. I don't think he would have given a woman the same advise.

I am digesting what was said and will post later with thoughts and questions. I feel like I am in the spiritual fight of my life.  A very, very difficult place.

ABB
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« Reply #23 on: September 20, 2013, 02:41:20 AM »

ABB,

Yes, that is the book I am talking about.  SO, SO good.  It sounds from your post that the pastor did say to live in the same house?  I am sure you will elaborate more on all this when you have the time/energy as your post said.

I pray God give me the words to say here for you.  I know the place of confusion and heartache and then getting so many angles on what to do.  And then feeling overwhelmed because you don't know what is right.

Just keep going back to the Word here.  It isn't any persons opinion that matters.  Do not take a person's opinion in that is contrary to the Word of God.  People, while having great intentions, shape things and come up with excuses, etc. to fit where they are.  We are all guilty of that and that is something I had to (and am still dealing with) in myself. 

If it looks impossible - and everyone else's story confirms it's impossible - but God's Word says something else - THEN REJECT ALL OPPOSING OPINIONS.  Stand on the Word.

I want to elaborate on this a little further - and this is why there is grey area with this particular topic as far as the OUTCOME is concerned.  For instance - if you are praying for a physical healing or for God to deliver YOU - that is a promise.  No grey area there at all.  Now let's say that you have some stage 4 cancer - and you get on a forum of all these people talking about the illness and you see that the prognosis is dim.  And that for the vast majority, they probably won't recover and even in the few that do it will be a long road to recovery with a difficult treatment plan.  Does it mean that you accept that even though for the MAJORITY of those out there in that situation that is THEIR REALITY?  NO!  Absolutely not!  Is that truth? YES - it's THEIR truth.  It COULD be your truth - but you have a promise that if you STAND ON IT - it will NOT be your truth and therefore you have a situation where God's Kingdom Law TRUMPS the laws in the earth of sickness and disease.  SO - you are only bound by the earthly law if you function in that realm as opposed to the Kingdom of God.

NOW - why does it not apply exactly the same in this situation?

When you are praying for someone ELSE’S recovery, healing, deliverance – God (and you) cannot override that person’s will.  You do have a certain level of authority in the Spirit over things that attack in your home, in your domain that God has given you dominion over.  (Which of course includes your family.)  So your prayers and “warfare” (to sum it up – read on spiritual warfare if you are not familiar) are VERY effective – but your wife will still have to receive it.  That is where the grey comes in and you don’t have a guaranteed promise of what outcome to expect. 

What you CAN expect 100%:  When you start praying and fasting and speaking the Word over your wife & marriage – GOD WILL back that up.  Which means that if you start doing that – He will definitely begin to work on your wife and do all that is possible to draw her to Him and you and what’s needed to be delivered and healed.  GOOD TO NOTE:  His WILL IS FOR YOUR MARRIAGE TO BE RESTORED.  There is no question what his WILL is.  When you start speaking healing to her mind and binding and loosing the harassing “vexing” spirits coming against her mind and soul and speak deliverance to her soul and healing to her personality it WILL begin to come.  God will begin to work on your wife.  And he will move mightily to do so.  I SAW THIS HAPPEN with my H.  And I felt the breakthrough in the Spirit and SAW him transformed before my eyes.  I would wake up every day and speak the Word over him and pray.  I fasted at one point.  I sowed targeted seed for my requests of God.  I praised God constantly for working in my marriage (BEFORE I could see it.) If I can find the specific prayer and scriptures that I spoke over him daily I will post it right after this one to give you an idea.

My H was completely restored and healed into his right mind.  He called me up one morning crying begging me to take him to the church for prayer (he would not go to church before this, I was living outside of the home at this point).  He prayed with one of the pastors there.  It was awesome.  His mind became totally clear and he even made a comment like he felt that the moment he did that all the anger and anguish was “kicked out of his heart”.  I saw this to be true in his behavior there after that remained very consistent.  He was totally in control of himself and able to speak very clearly about what had been going on with him.   I could go on and on here.  This lasted for some time.  We went to church (he was dragging ME to church every time the doors were open), he was up early in the morning praying every day and sharing with me the things God was speaking to him, he was very calm/kind/loving (opposite of how he normally was), we went on a missions trip out of the country at his prompting, etc.

Obviously that changed – and he ended up WORSE than any other time before.  (Notice when the spirits go out of a man if they are able to get back in they are much stronger.)  I am still in prayer about what happened here.  I DO NOT BELIEVE THIS IS WHAT MANY OTHERS HERE HAVE CALLED A RECYCLE OR PART OF THE DEVALUATION/IDEALIZATION PHASE the more I ponder it.  I believe there is something dark in my H’s life that I don’t know about it.  Not sure – but I actually believe it to be something sexual.  I think there was a door that he opened back up and slowly I watched that old thing take back over in him.  I wasn’t going to post all this as some people here may be freaked out by this – but I feel it necessary to tell you that I SAW IT WORK in my case.  However – there was another spiritual element at work in my situation I do believe and that allowed him to be dragged back down into what the bible calls a “pit”.

Anyway – this may be way over what I should be sharing here – but I want you to know I saw it work.  And your situation may be different than mine with the other hidden things going on/addiction that caused my H to turn his back on the Lord which let all that come back up in his life. 

I found that prayer – I am going to post it.  It’s long, but it is very good and powerful.  I would say it out loud daily or several times a day.  Blessings to you.

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« Reply #24 on: September 20, 2013, 02:42:46 AM »

(I substituted my H's name for H and my step daughter's name for D. - good to speak your wife's name out loud in place while praying.)

My prayer over this household:

I cover this house from the North, South, East & West with the blood of Jesus.  I cover H, myself, D, this marriage, this business & our property with the blood of Jesus.

By faith I forgive H and through your Holy Spirit I ask you enable him to forgive me for any and all hurts we have caused each other.  I pray you restore our souls and bring complete healing and restoration for these hurts that our hearts & soul may be whole toward one another and full of peace and love.

Psalm 23:3 You restore mine & H’s soul; and lead H & I in the path of righteousness for your name’s sake.

You heal mine & H’s broken heart and bind up our wounds.

I pray and declare that H & I recognize our true enemy, that it is not each other.  That we have eyes to see this and a heart to understand this.

Ephesians 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

I pray you would enlighten our understanding and place us on the same side with this understanding.  I say we are bound together with the bond of peace.  I bind any hindrance stopping us from seeing & believing this truth.

- Greater is he that is in me, than he that is in the world.

- I am the righteousness of Christ

- The prayer of the righteous is powerful & effective.

- Behold he has given me authority to tread of serpents & scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy   

  and nothing by any means shall harm me.

- Whatsoever I bind on earth is bound in heaven: and whatsoever I loose on earth is loosed in heaven.

- I will tread upon the lion and the adder (cobra): the young lion and the dragon (serpent) shall I trample   

  under feet.

I pray these things over this house through the power of the blood of Jesus, the name of Jesus & the authority I have in Christ Jesus:

In Jesus’ name, I bind every principality, power, ruler of darkness of this world, and spiritual wickedness in high places coming against H (body, mind, soul & spirit), myself (body, mind, soul, & spirit), D (body, mind, soul & spirit), this marriage, our business and our property.

In Jesus’ name, I bind & declare the following spirits and forces are trampled under our feet according to the Word of God:

Divorce, Fear, Panic, Terror, Anxiety, Oppression, Depression, Hopelessness, Faithlessness, Lustful Spirits, Lying & Deceiving Spirits, Jealousy, Controlling - Judgmental - Critical Spirits, Divisive Spirits, Strife, Murdering Spirits, Suicide, Manipulating Spirits, Poverty, Lack, Failure, BPD-MD-ED-PD, Violence, Hatred, Rage, Anger, Unforgiveness, Bitterness, Abandonment, Rejection, Pride, Selfishness, Disgust, Disdain.  I also bind any hindrance stopping H, D & I from seeing & receiving God’s truth & turning to him.

In Jesus’ name I loose the following into H, myself & D’s life & heart according to the Word of God:

The agape love of God, the peace of God, the joy of the Lord, the wisdom of God, God’s perfect will for our lives and this marriage & business, the faith & hope of God.  I declare we are bound together with the bond of peace.

Father I have already asked for these things in accordance with your will and in faith give you thanks and praise that you are:

Transforming H, D & I by the renewing of our minds.  (Romans 12:2)

That all the old in H, D & my life, this marriage & this business has passed away and all things have been made new.  (2 Cor. 5:17)

That H, D & I have the mind of Christ.  (1 Cor. 2:16)

That H, D & I are led by your Holy Spirit and you have written YOUR desires on our hearts.

That you who began a good work in H, D, myself, this marriage & this business will carry it on into completion until the day of Christ Jesus our Lord.

That you have given H, D & I one heart, and you have put a new spirit within us, and you have taken the stony heart out of our flesh, and have given H, D & I a heart of flesh,; That we may walk in your statutes, and keep your ordinances, and do them: and H, D & I will be your people, and YOU WILL BE OUR GOD.  (Ezekiel 11:19-20)

Your blessings have made H, D & I rich, and you add no sorrow with it. (Proverbs 10:22)

According to Luke 4:18 you have healed H, D & my broken heart, you have delivered us, you have repaired all damage & restored us, and you have set us at liberty from all the darkness & oppression that was upon us!

You lead us Father. Isaiah 30:21 And H, D & my ears hear a word behind us saying, This is the way, walk ye in it, when we turn to the right hand, and when we turn to the left.

I declare we are full of the fruit of the spirit, that we walk in peace - joy - and love DAILY.  That our hope in this life is restored.  And our hope for our future.

That the eyes of H, D & my understanding has been enlightened; that we know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints.  (Ephesians 1:18)

That the veil has been removed from H, D & my eyes.

That you have healed H, D & my backsliding, you love us FREELY; for your anger has turned away from H, D & I.  (Hosea 14:4)

As the heart of the King is in your hand and as rivers of water you turn it however you wish, so are H, D & my heart in your hands and your are lining them up with your desire and will for our lives.

I thank you Lord that you have sent your Holy Spirit to work heavily in our hearts, that we would turn to you.  That we would find no peace outside of your truth, and that we would HUNGER for your truth.  I thank you that you are removing or have removed every influence in our lives that is contrary to your will for our lives, and have silenced every tongue that would speak against your truth in and over our lives, this marriage and this business.

Father you have made a way where there was no way. 

Hatred stirs up strife, but love covers all sins.  Father I thank you that hatred and strife have been bond from operating in this household, and your love flows freely within it.

I thank you that your truth has pierced H, D & my heart.  As your word says, the integrity of the upright shall guide us.  (Proverbs 11:3)

Come have your way in this house God, fill us with your Holy Spirit and come and RULE & REIGN OVER OUR LIVES.
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« Reply #25 on: September 20, 2013, 05:14:37 AM »

ABB,

I come from a different faith tradition.  But still struggled with some of the same issues.  I come from a covenant people and once we give our word we do not retract. 

So breaking my word was and is a huge issue for me.  In the end the whole experience made a huge dent in my faith.

One of the considerations I didn't see mentioned here,... .sorry if I missed it... .is what staying would do to/for your wife.

For me the reality of BPD meant that I was my EX's trigger.  Being with me made my EX's illness more than she could handle.  I was, inadvertently to be sure, contributing to her sickness.

Clearmind said once a marriage or a relationship is ruptured due to mental illness it can not be saved.  For me it was one step more than that.  Once our relationship had ruptured, the damage to my EX was such that there was no way I could help her heal, regardless of good intentions. 

Accepting human limitations and frailties is difficult.  So was keeping separate issues of faith and practical reality.

babyducks
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« Reply #26 on: September 20, 2013, 11:17:49 AM »

Hi ABB,  I agree with babyducks that, as much as we strive to honor our vows, we have to accept our human limitations.  Staying for me meant destroying myself, which was of no help to anyone.  By leaving, I afforded myself a New Possibility, that of helping my children and even my Ex.  Staying was having a deleterious effect on all, so at that point I think the charitable thing was to move on, as hard as that was.  Great post!  Lucky Jim
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« Reply #27 on: September 20, 2013, 06:30:02 PM »

Lady31, once again all of your words and wisdom are greatly appreciated!

I am on day 4 of the recycle and am definitely in the honeymoon period.  Amazing love making. Minimal fighting. Good conversation. Nice breakfasts being made in the morning. Sleeping well at night.  Weird thing is that I am looking through the windshield and see the road crash up ahead. I just don't know if it is at mile marker 3, 13 or 23.

I met with my T earlier today and asked her if she had a brick wall for me to bang my head against. What the heck am I doing in the honeymoon period --- again?  I know so, so much better.  I should still be in NC mode to get this heroin like addicting woman out of my veins.

I sit her and ponder about going back to her apartment tonight. Just a simple text of, I love you but you stress the hell out of me and are making me sick seems like a good option now.  Maybe this nightmare would just go away.  My T says it can go away. She also tells me maybe I just haven't hit the wall yet with this woman.

We had a 12 day period of not seeing each other  We went to a bible revival for a couple of nights this week and connected again. I don't know why I asked her to go in hindsight, but I did.  We went to the bible study and my wife asked me to come back to her apartment.  I did.  My step-children are happy to see me and ask me if I am back to stay.  Tough question there kids. Very tough.

The littlest one (D10) does her very best to make me get my scheduled occupied with events to do with her.  Things you think a 10 year old would forget about, she will not let rest. I don't have the heart to tell her that it is very hard to promise anything around this household. I am a stand-up guy and am big on if I say I am going to do something, I do it.  But some of the very core parts of who make me, me get squashed because of my wife who happens to be your Mom as well.

OK --- enough venting, getting off my chest or whatever you call it.  Onto me sharing and looking for your so valuable opinions and insight.

My wife and I met with the pastor.  I think for about 90 minutes or so.  My wife is a master at assessment of her problems.  She went onto telling the pastor about them.  She also told him about her diagnosis of BPD, but she stated she isn't that.  Everyone has BPD in her opinion.my heart is sinking at this point with her denial.  (Yes, sweetie, we all have elements of BPD but you happen to have all 9 of them all of the time.).  She expresses her anger about the couples therapist we met with and how she had no right to tell me she had BPD. Really --- what does the therapist know, if anything at all?

And now comes the part that is of benefit to me.  The pastor tells her that while she is aware of her behavior and how much she herself is hurting, she thinks she is in a vacuum and she is not aware of how her actions hurt others such as her husband. He goes onto telling her that women and men are different. When men get hurt, they are irritable, short and grouchy.  He says she does not seem aware of how much hurt she causes. Also, she just glosses over her being physically abusive and the incidents with her holding a knife to her wrist saying she wants to kill herself.

He says it is horrible that we are living at separate residences, but I don't think he really had any solid plan on how to resolve that.  He also said that the bible discusses separation periods, but I don't see the application of that here (some help on that one folks). He says we should come up with a plan on how we should reunite, but offered little help on that. However, my wife's illness started raising its head at this point.  The pastor looked at me and I said I don't know and I was still absorbing as to what was said. My wife said something to the effect that since I don't know she will make a decision for me.  I believe she said something like I had two weeks to be back living with her or something like that.  She appeared to be angry at that point.  The pastor looked at her and said her making a unilateral decision was only going to create more chaos in her life and unrest and uncertainty.  That was the end and we exited the pastor's home.

We each had taken separate cars. She appeared to still be angry and told me not to even e-mail her ever again. I looked at her and said she is a jackass.  I drove off and for whatever reason turned around and stopped. We spoke and she said, do you want to go and talk somewhere. We went back to her apartment.  We had a quiet time and spoke, but nothing was resolved.

Her latest deal is with her setting boundaries from what she has been learning from her CR class.  She is a little confused about who is the abuser and who is being abused.  The boundary now is I no longer have a key to her apartment where she and I were living because she doesn't have a key to my house where I am living. She seems to think that is a major deal for me. This has happened before during one of our cycles and she was almost begging to give me the key back. I wasn't interested.  After several days I did take it. I put a spare key on my ring for her, but will have to really, really think it through before giving it to her.

As I said before, I feel like I am on a very, very hard spiritual journey.  I have had so many friends who care about me and are smart people tell me to get ride of her and don't look back. I am really thinking this thing could end very, very ugly with someone (most likely me) getting hurt or dead.

Your thoughts, opinions and insight please.

ABB
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« Reply #28 on: September 20, 2013, 07:43:08 PM »

I have studied for nine years in a theological seminary, and I cannot understand why many ministers tell Folks to stay with abusive spouses. We are clearly told in 1Cor7:15 that God does allow for divorce with an unbeliever. Who is an unbeliever? God said this in Mal. 2:16. "I hate divorce says the God of Israel, and I hate a man's covering himself with violence as well as his garment, says the Lord God Almighty. So guard yourself with your spirit and do not break faith." So God hates abuse and violence in marriage. If you are being battered mentally, verbally, physically, then there is no mistake. No matter what they do or say, they are NOT a believer. Do not believe any minister or church who tells you to be submissive to a spouse who abuses you. You could get hurt or killed. God does not want this to happen to you. Divorce is not a sin if you are being abused. Even God was a divorcee' because He divorced Israel.
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« Reply #29 on: September 20, 2013, 07:50:43 PM »

I have studied for nine years in a theological seminary, and I cannot understand why many ministers tell Folks to stay with abusive spouses. We are clearly told in 1Cor7:15 that God does allow for divorce with an unbeliever. Who is an unbeliever? God said this in Mal. 2:16. "I hate divorce says the God of Israel, and I hate a man's covering himself with violence as well as his garment, says the Lord God Almighty. So guard yourself with your spirit and do not break faith." So God hates abuse and violence in marriage. If you are being battered mentally, verbally, physically, then there is no mistake. No matter what they do or say, they are NOT a believer. Do not believe any minister or church who tells you to be submissive to a spouse who abuses you. You could get hurt or killed. God does not want this to happen to you. Divorce is not a sin if you are being abused. Even God was a divorcee' because He divorced Israel.

Thank you.  That's what I was told.
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