Need help with a difficult conversation

[zaqsert]

Hi All,

I think this is a good board for my request, so I'll try here first.

In a couple of months we (my uBPDw, our D3, and me) will move back to the area where we had been living up until about a year ago.  My wife and I are discussing preschool options for D3.  We already have a deposit down for a spot at our preschool of choice.

We want D3 to go to preschool at least part of the week.  We started her in a preschool/daycare before she was 1 year old to help my wife with a chronic pain condition that she had developed.  Then she stayed in preschool so that my wife could go see doctors and have some time to herself (she does not work).  For the past year, D3 has been in preschool for 3 days each week.

We also need to find ways to save money because we have been pulling from our savings for at least the past two years.

My wife suggested that our daughter go to preschool either 2 full days or 3 half days.  She also said that she would try to find a job after we move back.

The concern I have is that during the 2 days a week that our daughter currently spends at home with mom, my wife has her watch lots of TV and leaves her to do her own thing for long periods of time while my wife watches her own TV shows (or sometimes reads) in bed.  My wife tends to dysregulate easily after spending time with our daughter.  None of this is fair to our daughter.  At times my wife can even do these things in just the evening hours after our daughter is back from preschool, after my wife had almost the entire day to herself.

While I want our daughter to sped time with her mom, and I like the idea of saving some money, I am really worried that more time together (daughter with mom) during the week can be a recipe for disaster, which I really want to avoid for our daughter.

I don't know how to bring this up to my wife so that either one of us can end up proposing at least 3 days a week in preschool, if not more.  So far all the ways I've thought about end in a likely rage.  I know I can't control her feelings, but I really want to make this productive.

What would you suggest?

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[PeppermintTea]

Hiya,

I have a D3 and a D2 and my dBPDh doesn't work so in effect 'should be' lookign after them. However we have exactly the same dynamic - basically he can't nurture them in a way they need and this became perfectly obvious before I came back to work. Therefore they go to nursery 3 days a week and to their grandparents 1 day per week (I work 4 long days). He didn't like this because in his mind it shows him to be incompetant and/or a 'bad' father (he isn't either really he just can't cope with nurturing young children).

I am really no expert in this but would using DEARMAN work at all for you? Maybe something along the lines of:

D= Describe the current situation. We need to agree on childcare options that are within our financial means but that take care of all of our needs.

E= Express your feelings and opinions about the situation. Sometimes I feel DD needs more stimulation and nuruturing than you are able to give her on a regular basis

A= Assert yourself by asking for what you want or saying no clearly. I would prefer that D went to childcare 3 days per week

R= Reinforce the reward to the person ahead of time. This would help you get enough time to yourself to be able to relate well to D when she is at home.

M= Mindfully keep your focus on your objectives. this would enable me to relax and focus at work, D get the stimulation she needs, you would have time to yourself.

A= Appear Confident. Use a confident voice tone and physical manner; make good eye contact. No stammering, whispering, staring at the floor, retreating, saying “I’m not sure,” etc.

N= Negotiate by being willing to give to get. Offer and ask for alternative solutions to the problem.  What other options could we consider to continue saving money? Can we cut back on anythign else?

As I said I'm really not an expert in this and my use of the communication tools is very much a work in progress.  I'm sure someone else much more experienced than me will come along soon and help or make better suggestions.

I just know that for me the wellbeing of our children is something I won't compromise over and H knows this. Even if it means that sometimes I upset him I feel that I have to put their best interests first. I try my best to communicate in a way that is ok and validating for him but the bottom line is if I feel something needs to be done or changed for my D's then I bring it up with him.

[allibaba]

E= Express your feelings and opinions about the situation. Sometimes I feel DD needs more stimulation and nuruturing than you are able to give her on a regular basis

I worry that this will trigger mom.  I know that it would trigger my husband because it suggests that he is "less than" or not capable.  Even if its true, I don't need to rub his nose in it.

In our house, my husband actively acknowledges that he is struggling with mental illness (though we don't call it that).  In this sort of scenario, I usually say something about being with our son for x period of time being more than my husband can handle.  I also mention something about him being a good father and wanting to protect his relationship with our son (which is true just as much as I want to protect our son from my husband's erratic behavior when he is stressed.

[PeppermintTea]

E= Express your feelings and opinions about the situation. Sometimes I feel DD needs more stimulation and nuruturing than you are able to give her on a regular basis

I worry that this will trigger mom.  I know that it would trigger my husband because it suggests that he is "less than" or not capable.  Even if its true, I don't need to rub his nose in it.

I hear what you say Allibaba I've followed your journey and it's given me a lot of inspiration and hope .

My husband would also be triggered by this statement but I feel that this is acceptable at times. Sometimes he will be triggered by my feelings on situations and I can't help that - I could choose not to express these feelings but then how would I bring up that there is an issue?

If I needed to tell my husband I thought it was better for our D's to be at nursery than at home with him then I would do so. I would validate my husbands feelings but for me I would have to express my own as well.  

[allibaba]

I hear what you say Allibaba I've followed your journey and it's given me a lot of inspiration and hope .

My husband would also be triggered by this statement but I feel that this is acceptable at times. Sometimes he will be triggered by my feelings on situations and I can't help that - I could choose not to express these feelings but then how would I bring up that there is an issue?

If I needed to tell my husband I thought it was better for our D's to be at nursery than at home with him then I would do so. I would validate my husbands feelings but for me I would have to express my own as well.

Thanks!

And I respect you for sharing your feelings even when its triggering PeppermintTea!  Sometimes I have to tread really, really lightly with my husband (like when he is under stress) and sometimes I have the option to "SPEAK MY TRUTH" and sometimes I go a different way

[Grey Kitty]

zaqsert, I've never enrolled a child in preschool, and I'm wondering how it works.

Specifically, if you need/want to change the schedule between 2 full days, 3 half days, 3 full days... .are you free to make changes? Would you be able to change it for next week or next month, or are you committed for the year?

Your fears of what will happen with your wife needing to take care of D3 too much are legitimate. Telling her about them is invalidating (i.e. triggering), and using the tools can take some of the sting out of it, but it will be difficult whatever you do.

I think it would be easier to adjust the situation when it is clearly needed, than to create conflict about a hypothetical change.

I think DEARMAN is a good format when the topic comes up, perhaps with a shift.

E= Express your feelings and opinions about the situation. Sometimes I feel DD needs more stimulation and nuruturing than you are able to give her on a regular basis

Something more concrete might work better here:

I feel that DD needs more attention focused on her than you give her while watching TV.

[musicfan42]

I am really no expert in this but would using DEARMAN work at all for you?

As I said I'm really not an expert in this and my use of the communication tools is very much a work in progress.  I'm sure someone else much more experienced than me will come along soon and help or make better suggestions.

I just know that for me the wellbeing of our children is something I won't compromise over and H knows this. Even if it means that sometimes I upset him I feel that I have to put their best interests first. I try my best to communicate in a way that is ok and validating for him but the bottom line is if I feel something needs to be done or changed for my D's then I bring it up with him.

PeppermintTea-I really like your attitude. It's great that you put your children's needs first. I also like how you're willing to try out different communication techniques. I found DEARMAN hard to get the hang of initially. I had to read over it for ages and practice it before I felt truly comfortable with it.

You demonstrated a really good example of DEARMAN... it would be a great tool in this particular situation. It sounds like you're doing a great job with it so please give yourself some credit there

Zasqert-I've been following your story here. As I've said before, I think that you're a great parent... I don't have children so I don't feel that I can really offer constructive advice here but I'd like to offer encouragement to you all the same

[Chosen]

I don't have children, so I don't know how helpful my input is, but I guess in your conversation, it would probably sound better if you focus on what the child needs (as opposed to what your wife cannot give/ lacks). 

I suppose D3 needs stimulation, interaction and just generally learning to be a social person.  It is quite obvious that she isn't getting much of that at home.  But that's not the main point, because what if your W says " I will watch less TV and be with her", then what will you do?  She may or may not do this, but then you can't ask for the 3 days of preschool afterwards.  How about a SET conversation?

S: I do agree that D3 spending time with you is good, and that it will help us save money.  It sounds like an attractive idea.

E: I want what's best for the whole family and it's important to balance the needs of everyone.

T: I think that D3 can do with more time in preschool, even if it means spending a bit less time at home and it costing more.  It is important for her to be with other people and she needs that stimulation.

Maybe it's just because I'm a whimpy person, but when I try to get a point across, I normally don't pinpoint how inadequate the pwBPD is (unless that IS the point I'm trying to bring out).  Otherwise the conversation will drift away from the topic (about your D3, not your wife!) and you'll end up having to defend what you say... .

Good luck!

[PeppermintTea]

Zaqsert I came back to this thread to add something else I feel is important... .

When I had to talk to my husband about childcare for our daughters he was triggered and he did have quite a nasty 'extinction burst' (I think that's the right term) which went on for several weeks but I stuck to my truth. However he is in therapy and this helped because we were able to talk about it at intervals and  I kept reassuring him that I love him and that I know he wants to be the best father he can be. I kept saying that being the best we can be sometimes means doing less but doing it superbly. Eventually he got that idea.

Now he spends less time alone with our D's but the time he does spend he builds up to and puts himself in the frame of mind for and then they have a kind caring daddy. ALso he has practised recognising when he isn't in a place to give his best and telling me this (a BIG step forward). That means if he was supposed to have them I will make alternative arrangments... .

It's definitely a work in progress and most of the work happens after the initial 'big conversation'... .

Good luck PT

[zaqsert]

Thanks for your very helpful responses!

I'm off on a long weekend trip with my uBPDw and our D3, so I can't type much now.  I'll follow up after I'm back.

[allibaba]

Zaqsert,

If it helps, my hubby is in the exact same place as PeppermintTea's husband.  My husband is also in a very different mental space at the moment.  He realized (by himself) that he would rather spend shorter healthy periods with his son than try to take on too much.  My husband arrived at this conclusion as a result of our family journey of boundaries etc.

Moral of the story is that 2 different approaches have yielded the same results.  I know that you'll know the 'right' approach for you... .unfortunately only your wife will decide how she'll react... .

[daylily]

Hi zaqsert,

My D2 is in preschool three days per week until 3:00 (she started several months ago), but it was really difficult for my uBPDh to agree to it.  He liked the concept of preschool but it triggered him too.  His issues were that: (1) sending D2 to preschool must mean that H is not a good dad because he's at home and available to care for D2, but we're still sending her "away"; and (2) all H has in his life is being a stay-at-home dad, so to the extent that is taken away, his "identity" is being compromised.  If your W feels the same way, perhaps validating these feelings may help.  I mentioned that preschool would be good for D2 socially, but focused more on H having time to do things to take care of himself so that he's happier.  I gave him some ideas of things he might do while D2 is in preschool and S5 is at kindergarten.  He was feeling guilty and inadequate about taking the time for himself, so the more I validated that, the more it seemed to help him come around.

  Daylily

[zaqsert]

Two months later, I'm finally coming back to this... .

Specifically, if you need/want to change the schedule between 2 full days, 3 half days, 3 full days... . are you free to make changes? Would you be able to change it for next week or next month, or are you committed for the year?

We may be able to make changes, although it will depend on space available.  When we tried to enroll D3 last time, we had to wait for a spot to open up.  I expect it would be easy to decrease the number of days per week, while increasing the number of days would depend on availability.

[zaqsert]

Thanks again for your support PeppermintTea, allibaba, Grey Kitty, musicfan42, Chosen, and daylily!

Since I last posted, my wife said that 4 days per week would be ideal but calculated that we should only send D3 to preschool for about 2 days per week, my parents seem to have figured out that my wife may be uBPD and they offered to help with the cost of preschool, and I attempted the conversation several times suggesting 4 days per week.

Each time my wife and I tried to talk about this, she stated 2-3 of her reasons, I tried to acknowledge and validate, then I would start to share my thoughts and 1-2 of my reasons, and my wife would get angry.  She accused me of trying to get my way regardless of what she wants (feels like projection).

As soon as the accusations started, which was pretty quickly, I left the conversation.  Anywhere from a day to a few days later we tried again, and quickly ended up in a very similar place.  Sometimes she would bring it up as if we had never talked about it (something like "So, 3 days then?".  She claims I just want my way, and I tell her I just want to talk with her and discuss our points of view and reach a solution.

She angrily said "go ahead and do whatever you want."  I gave it another day, and when I still got the same answer, I booked 4 days per week for D3.  She got angry about that too, and I reminded her that I did exactly what she said I should do.

Each day for the past several days I've told her that I want to talk about preschool and asked her if she is ready to talk about D3's preschool plans.  She has said no each time.  Meanwhile, I have been getting the nasty/silent treatment.

In the past I was likely to cave.  This time I am avoiding the nasty and silent treatment as much as I can.  And I will not change my mind until (or unless) my wife actually talks with me, in a true two-way conversation, without accusations.  I don't know if she ever well, but I now know that I deserve it, and my daughter deserves this to be done for her.  I am not willing to give in just because my wife is throwing a tantrum for not immediately getting what she wants.

[PeppermintTea]

Hi zaqsert,

This is really hard on you but if you feel that you are doing the right thing for your daughter and for your own peace of mind on that score then stick to it.


In 2011/12 I stuck to a similar position and my husband went through a very nasty period which almost resulted in us divorcing (it included self harm and suicide attempt). However, I am glad that I stuck by what I said for three reasons:

1) My daughters got the nurturing environment they need while I had to be at work,

2) My husband understands now that my boundaries around how we speak to, interact with and generally parent our children are rock solid, 

3) Somehow out of the depths of anger and depair my husband recognised that he has to work towards change in order for our lives to get better and has embarked upon therapy (and we are seeing some results now). It is definitely not all plain sailing though.

I know all situations and people are different  but I hope that after the storm there will be some positive steps forward for you. I think you are handling this really well. You are putting strategies in place to protect your daughter and you are validating her. You are also trying to show genuine care and validation towards your wife. You are doing all the right things as hard as they are to do.

Hang in there.

PT

[an0ught]

Hi zagsert,

She angrily said "go ahead and do whatever you want."  I gave it another day, and when I still got the same answer, I booked 4 days per week for D3.  She got angry about that too, and I reminded her that I did exactly what she said I should do.

sometimes no agreement can be reached and the stronger one (or more engaged, or more planning, or more persistent) gets their way. In this case you. That is life. It is uncomfortable for all and as a codependent you are very uncomfortable with it as you want agreement. As a pwBPD it is bad for your wife as she dislikes being pushed around. But as said sometimes life forces a decision and no agreement is possible.

We agree to disagree is a normal way to express it. We acknowledge that there is a relationship that is overriding but we WILL NOT cave in with our position. Life goes on.

Each day for the past several days I've told her that I want to talk about preschool and asked her if she is ready to talk about D3's preschool plans.  She has said no each time.  Meanwhile, I have been getting the nasty/silent treatment.

In the past I was likely to cave.  This time I am avoiding the nasty and silent treatment as much as I can.  And I will not change my mind until (or unless) my wife actually talks with me, in a true two-way conversation, without accusations.  I don't know if she ever well, but I now know that I deserve it, and my daughter deserves this to be done for her.  I am not willing to give in just because my wife is throwing a tantrum for not immediately getting what she wants.

Getting her on your factual side is impossible. She was forced and did not like it ("you go ahead" was acknowledging you being stronger at this time). You carry the responsibility of the decision alone. That is ok. It is ok to validate that she did not like it and that you pushed your ideas through - these are the facts after all. You don't have to feel bad that you took the lead here . You may feel sad that no agreement was reached. She may require a hefty dose of validation and maybe some face saving carrot where she has again some sense of control to get her to crawl out of her hole.

[PeppermintTea]

You carry the responsibility of the decision alone. That is ok. It is ok to validate that she did not like it and that you pushed your ideas through - these are the facts after all. You don't have to feel bad that you took the lead here . You may feel sad that no agreement was reached.

This is what I was trying to say zaq. You made a decision based on experience and on the reality of the situation and your wife doesn't like. You can (and it's a good idea to) validate her feelings about that but you don't have to feel bad about taking the decision.

PT

[zaqsert]

Thanks again, PeppermintTea and an0ught!

Here I have been wanting to come back for the past few days to reflect a bit more and share an update, and this evening I learned that there is a new twist in this story.

Over dinner, my wife shares that on Friday she is planning to take our daughter (D3) to the library.  I said great, but what about preschool.  She told me that on Monday she told the school that our daughter would only go 3 days a week.

I asked her when she planned on telling me that she changed what we had agreed to.  She said whenever I asked.  She tried to justify it by bringing back up something from about 4 years ago.  About 4 years ago she had said she did not want me to share something with my brother.  Back then I didn't argue much about it.  We were about to see my brother, so I called him about a day before that and told him.  On our way to see my family she happened to ask.  I told her the truth.  She as furious.  We dealt with it in marital therapy, and I never did that again.  Now 4 years later, she did it to me, and worse, because this involves an important decision about our daughter.

In short, I made it very clear to her that it is unacceptable to change important decisions about our daughter without consulting each other.  She tried to argue that because she is the primary caretaker (I work all week, she does not) then she gets to decide.  Basically she did what she had accused me of trying to do.  I reiterated that regardless of how much say anyone has, we both have a say, and she should never do this again.  I added that since she has now made the change, we will talk about it.  (You may recall that our attempts to discuss it earlier all failed -- she said what she thought, I started to say what I thought, she got angry and started with accusations, and that was the end of the discussion).  We will not talk about it tonight (don't have time), but we will discuss it very soon.  I do not want to let this one go.

Interestingly, for the past couple of days she had been acting a bit more normal and nice.  After this conversation she has gone back to more of the nasty treatment.

Earlier today a friend asked me about D3's preschool schedule.  I told them I would not be surprised if my wife changes it from 4 to 3 days without telling me.  Maybe I am learning to predict BPD behaviors after all.

Tonight over dinner I was angry, but also calm, and felt quite well grounded in the discussion.  Such a huge difference from where I was a year ago.  I know I've said this before, but thanks a ton to so many of you!