Breaking it down

[Depression = 72% of members]

Disclaimer, of course this is all opinion, and if you find it insipid more power to you. I've held my tongue for a long time on this board. Namely, because the suffering is so overwhelming. I see the hatred, and let's not mince words, because that's what it is, directed towards people with BPD. It's everywhere on this board. And I understand why, because the pain is immense.

So, any post that dares address that better be respectful of the pain we've all suffered, and I am respectful, because I am a non too, I am one of you.

So what can I say as one person to all this pain and suffering that we've all experienced? I know what I want to say, but it's a message that chafes against the recalcitrant.

Ok, I'll say it. Despite whatever your person with BPD did to you, in most cases they loved you as much as you loved them (if not more), and if that relationship lasted a while they will always have love for you within their hearts.

What? They betrayed me, lied ceaselessly, manipulated, immediately hooked up with another. That's love?

K, valid questions.

Here's the breakdown. The things they don't tell you in the psychology tomes. The places where the shrinks don't go because they haven't lived with these people. It's sort of a joke, we rely on these professionals, but all along we're the experts.

You see, here's the answer. Despite whatever they've done to you. They loved you exactly as much as you loved them. Isn't that a relief. It doesn't matter that they cheated on you, if they left you. They loved you as much as you loved them.

Their actions are not illustrative of their love. To the crux. What is the difference between us and them? Isn't that what it comes down to? All this unfathomable disconnect. We nons love, and know why we love. It is not something we ever have to question. We know that it is more than a feeling. We can say with certainty that, "I love because of all the moments that we spent together that are tied with sentiment in my heart."

It is not so for them. They feel the exact same love as us. They know that society tells them that they should feel love. But they do not understand the "why" about love. The WHY makes all the difference in the world. The cannot feel "why" they love you. The "why" is what sustains love beyond mere feeling. The sentimental chains, the ties that bind in a linear fashion. The continuum of sentiment and experience conjoined, escapes them.

Why we love someone is what restrains us. It is "why" we honor others. Our codes of morality and integrity are based on "whys," not feelings. We constrain ourselves in relationships because it is easy for us to internalize why we love another.

Not so for them. Their inability to feel "the reasons why one should love" immediately impacts their impulse control. Without that gigantic cognitive censor low self-esteem is bolstered. The inability to feel the "why" for loving becomes a shame mechanism and the result naturally is anti-relational. No one ever told them that it is all right to love but not be able to feel why. We all want to know why we love someone--don't we? That's the curse they carry. The ability to feel love but not know why. And when you don't know why, blowing off the primary relationship, and attaching to someone new, or having sex with another is contextually very different than how a non disordered person would feel about that and perceive it. They love you just as much as you loved them. They just cannot feel, and do not know why. All things change... .       

[Conundrum]

Disclaimer, of course this is all opinion, and if you find it insipid more power to you. I've held my tongue for a long time on this board. Namely, because the suffering is so overwhelming. I see the hatred, and let's not mince words, because that's what it is, directed towards people with BPD. It's everywhere on this board. And I understand why, because the pain is immense.

So, any post that dares address that better be respectful of the pain we've all suffered, and I am respectful, because I am a non too, I am one of you.

So what can I say as one person to all this pain and suffering that we've all experienced? I know what I want to say, but it's a message that chafes against the recalcitrant.

Ok, I'll say it. Despite whatever your person with BPD did to you, in most cases they loved you as much as you loved them (if not more), and if that relationship lasted a while they will always have love for you within their hearts.

What? They betrayed me, lied ceaselessly, manipulated, immediately hooked up with another. That's love?

K, valid questions.

Here's the breakdown. The things they don't tell you in the psychology tomes. The places where the shrinks don't go because they haven't lived with these people. It's sort of a joke, we rely on these professionals, but all along we're the experts.

You see, here's the answer. Despite whatever they've done to you. They loved you exactly as much as you loved them. Isn't that a relief. It doesn't matter that they cheated on you, if they left you. They loved you as much as you loved them.

Their actions are not illustrative of their love. To the crux. What is the difference between us and them? Isn't that what it comes down to? All this unfathomable disconnect. We nons love, and know why we love. It is not something we ever have to question. We know that it is more than a feeling. We can say with certainty that, "I love because of all the moments that we spent together that are tied with sentiment in my heart."

It is not so for them. They feel the exact same love as us. They know that society tells them that they should feel love. But they do not understand the "why" about love. The WHY makes all the difference in the world. The cannot feel "why" they love you. The "why" is what sustains love beyond mere feeling. The sentimental chains, the ties that bind in a linear fashion. The continuum of sentiment and experience conjoined, escapes them.

Why we love someone is what restrains us. It is "why" we honor others. Our codes of morality and integrity are based on "whys," not feelings. We constrain ourselves in relationships because it is easy for us to internalize why we love another.

Not so for them. Their inability to feel "the reasons why one should love" immediately impacts their impulse control. Without that gigantic cognitive censor low self-esteem is bolstered. The inability to feel the "why" for loving becomes a shame mechanism and the result naturally is anti-relational. No one ever told them that it is all right to love but not be able to feel why. We all want to know why we love someone--don't we? That's the curse they carry. The ability to feel love but not know why. And when you don't know why, blowing off the primary relationship, and attaching to someone new, or having sex with another is contextually very different than how a non disordered person would feel about that and perceive it. They love you just as much as you loved them. They just cannot feel, and do not know why. All things change... .       

[Ironmanrises]

An interesting breakdown. The why you reference is the moral obligation one has to another in a relationship. That moral obligation means everything. Without that, there might as well not be a relationship. Right? What is the point of being in a relationship if something so fundamental is missing and the rules that govern that no longer matter.

"They loved you as much as you loved them." Lets add the important appendage, "... .until the pwBPD gets triggered." A distinction that needs to be made. Why? Obviously, the behavior after that displays everything but love and respect to the other person in the relationship. We all land in this forum for the behavior displayed after that trigger day. When the transformation occurs into that Janus-faced entity. Is this not so?

"Their inability to feel the reasons why one should love immediately impacts their impulse control." Lets add the appendage, "... .With direct consequences on the person that they are most intimate with." Again, an important distinction that needs to be made. Why? That inability to feel is not impacting all the people in the pwBPD's life. It is namely effecting the most intimate person(and if there are children in relationship obviously them right alongside). That loss of impact control is one thing if it only had consequences on the pwBPD. But it does not. It has consequences on the non who feels that most keenly.

Again, that is an informative breakdown Conundrum. I totally get the gist of it. All things do change, just not at the expense of another person. Mental illness or not. I have a mental illness too, called Major Depression. I have received no such leeway for how it has impacted my life. I am still held accountable for my actions irrespective of that.

[goldylamont]

i for one wholeheartedly agree Conundrum that my ex loved me as much as i loved her. and i think i can say this and not feel as if i'm excusing any of her behavior.

she also hated me unjustifiably, and i didn't match her in this regard. she loved me for things that i did do. she hated me for things i didn't.

[Take2]

I'm not really sure about the entire breakdown, but I do totally agree that my ex loved and still loves me as much as I love him.  And he loved me and hated me for things I both did and did not do.  I do speak to male coworkers.  (I have got to do my job.)  It's my personality that he loves - but yet it's that same personality that makes him feel so insecure that he flips if I speak to a male coworker and then hates me for things I didn't do that he accuses me of.

But he clearly loves me more than he's ever loved anyone else.  I feel the same and recognize the fleas I have acquired - before him and from him.  I think it's actually easier to be so angry and all one can feel is hatred toward the BPD personality - but the disorder occurs on a continuum.   As I've read on these boards many times, we tend to choose those who are emotional equals.  It might be easier for many to get angry and place all blame on the BPD in their lives than to look in the mirror.  Not saying that those with hate are guilty of the abuse they have endured.

And anger has a good place in healing.  Acknowledging that this truly IS a disorder that causes my ex to still want to be with me but then rage at me and shove me away because that's what they do to avoid pain - is partly what kept me stuck for so very long.  Feeling horribly for him and how he must have been treated as a child, knowing inside that he loves me... .makes it very difficult to let someone in so much pain go... .   but it's showing true love to let that person go.  Not to mention if often just becomes a matter of getting away from some who might be on the dangerous scale of the disorder (mine at times) and potentially capable of scary behavior. 

I'm rambling and no longer sure I made a point at all... .  tired... .

[willtimeheal]

Love is based on respect and trust. Two things my ex BPD never had for me. When I look back on the relationship I can honestly say it was one sided. We only did things she wanted to do. We ate at the restaurants she wanted. We saw the movies she wanted. If I said I wanted  to do something we rarely if ever did it. The whole relationship focused on her and her needs.

I understand your breakdown but I don't fully agree with it. I was a possession to my ex not someone she loved. I was solely there to fill her needs. Possession does not equal love. And you don't hurt the people you love the way they do. I know she I  mentally ill but there comes a time when people have to take responsibility for  their actions.

I feel sorry for my ex BPD  I can't imagine living in that hell. I also know she did the best that she could but she could have gotten help. She chose not do. She chose to cheat lie and hurt me over and over.

[mother in law]

Only you and your wife can decide whether you can and sts willing to go through the process of making it work and I wish you luck. However as the ex mil of a BPD female I advise you to think carefully about having children before you see the light at the end of the tunnel because if it does all fall apart it is a nightmare for all concerned. It has devastating effects on the children, the non BPD, BPD and grand parents  who are observing the whole sad scenario. I think you only need to read some of the other boards to see this. It would seem to me you both need to pull together to make this work, so good luck.

[DragoN]

They love you just as much as you loved them. They just cannot feel, and do not know why.

This statement doesn't make sense at all. If a person cannot feel, they cannot know love at all. So they cannot love either. It's 'need' to attach to anyone who will allow them to. The mirroring in effect. When you mirror what lies behind the mirror, they get thrown off and interesting things can erupt. Then you become a threat to the construct and they will do whatever is necessary to protect themselves from what ever false alarms are raging in their heads. And since they thoroughly hate themselves, how can anyone possibly love them? Which sets the partner up for devaluation. Then the discard. Then a recycle if the non allows it.

He loved and hated me with equal intensity. He didn't trust nor respect me. Eventually he did, when he could no longer hurt me. Once, in tears he told me he trusted me. Only once in all the years. I loved him , but I couldn't take the abuse anymore. He still loves me in his own tormented way, and I know he hurts somewhere deep inside. He loved me the way  It's a toxic bond.

I believe it was Randi Kreger somewhere that wrote, we almost have to be cruel to be kind. For our own sanity, we have to cut them loose or we go down the rabbit hole with them. Took an extremely long time to finally let go, and once was more than enough.

[heartandwhole]

Really interesting discussion.  I thought this thread might be helpful, because there is a lot of information in there from the perspective of someone who had BPD:

BPD Behaviors: Did he/she ever love me?

[Pearl55]

LOVE is only a four letter word for a borderline. I wrote about the splitting reflex in one of my posts. Yes in their imaginations they do love us but this is far from the reality.

[fromheeltoheal]

I'm not sure if I hated my borderline ex, I do know that I hated the way she treated me, a natural response to abuse, but hate her?  Not sure.  I did and do love her, and I'm not sure I could muster the ambivalence to hate her too, confusing, I just know she was treating me worse and worse, to my own bewilderment, and the pain got so extreme that I HAD to leave; I was losing my fcking mind, more literally than figuratively.

But now with detachment I see her as a sick person and not a bad one, I do love that beautiful girl trapped in her disorder, and have accepted that I can't 'fix' it and a real adult loving relationship would never be possible, so I need to leave it all alone because she would undeniably pull me down with her.  Sad.

I don't agree that a borderline doesn't understand the 'why' of love though; they have a 'why', just drastically different from our 'why'.  A borderline never experienced the love of two autonomous individuals when it was crucial in their development, and grew to learn that the sensation of love, which they do strongly feel, is accompanied by the excruciating feelings of impending abandonment, the core of the disorder.  And we were seen as the solution to that predicament, the perfect partner who will never leave and 'fix' them; fantasy-based but absolutely real for them when they feel it, in fact my ex felt all of her emotions intensely, including the love she felt for me, just an entirely different love, making true intimacy impossible.  What we did have in common though was we both entered the relationship looking to be 'saved', and when it became clear that neither of us would be saving the other, the wheels fell off, and ugliness ensued.

To address your main point Conundrum, if a borderline doesn't know why someone loves, why don't they ask?  I'm not the world's greatest communicator, but I do alright when I focus on it, and of course when I pushed it with her I got pushback that was loud, accusatory, condescending, blah, blah, all the thrills, so I gave up eventually.  My take is it's the shame-based nature of the disorder that makes open, honest communication impossible, so maintaining a facade of lies, angles, shadows, deceptions is the only option, exhausting and ultimately unfullfilling, but so easy to fix if she'd just get off it.  Oh yeah, she's got a serious mental illness.  Extra sad.

[willtimeheal]

My ex BPD would tell me that she hated herself. She would say that she didn't understand why she desperately wanted the approval of her abusive parents. I encouraged her to go to therapy... .which she had the insurance to.cover the cost of. Her response was "I don't want to."  "It's too much work." "I have you to talk to. That's what you are for."  I think of that last statement now and it haunts me. I was nothing more than a tool to her.  So I have a hard time accepting that they don't understand. Mine knew what her problem was and what she needed to do to get better. She made a choice not too. Maybe out of fear and lack of understanding but it was still a choice... .her choice. She choose instead to lie and cheat.

[LilMissSunshine]

My uexBPDbf  recently told me he loves the person I pretend to be, not who I really am; that he fell in love with "someone" who doesn't exist.  Since I never pretended to be anyone other than who I am I'm more confused than ever about the love thing.  The next day, out of the blue, he hugged me and told me he loved me.  Yet, nothing I'm aware of had changed.  All I know is that I've never loved someone as much as I love him.  Even after all the abuse I've suffered.  The more I think about it the more I lean towards the theory that borderlines don't feel love.

[Perfidy]

It wasn't love. At one time I thought it was love. I know now that I was wrong. For me, it was a desire for love. I have so much love in me I can't keep it to myself. My desire for love is to share it with another. I shared my love with a person that did not love herself, she was not capable of loving another. All of my love went to her and there was no reciprocation. She was so empty that she took all of my love until there was very little left for me. She was an emotional black hole sucking everything in. Money,things,drugs,... .Everything. Dependence is what she had. Not love. Her dependence and my codependency were the foundation of a long trip through hell. To her a relationship is a survival tactic. If she isn't in a relationship she has nothing. Nothing.

[willtimeheal]

Well said perfidy.  I agree 100%

[myself]

I don't think a pwBPD loves the same way a person without BPD does. They turn it off and on too much. The ways they project their pain causes too much distance between them and those they're in a relationship with. The false perspectives they generate while projecting don't allow them to be consistent with anyone, even themselves.

Do they feel love? Yes, but not in the exact same ways that we do. Even though we feel we're understanding who they are inside, we'll never really know. Too much is kept hidden, even when it seems it's been exposed. Their feelings are more about survival mode, fight or flight, which doesn't leave much room for things like love.

Breaking it down, how good are WE at love? I don't feel I have always lived up to it, and have run away from my feelings. Which has hurt myself and others. Many of us thought we had found our other half, but what we found was someone who is different than us. Try as we did, we could not make it fit. That's where we're the same.

[apple]

I don't think I was loved. It was her trying to portray or project an image to the outside world and when I no longer fit into her imagined "perfect family, life,partner " ( which happened about 5mos after she got a new corporate job and was making more money than she ever did)  I was de-valued.  

If you notice, most people discuss how they just move right into another relationship or spend all of their time trying to find and secure the next relationship. People who love, do not do this kind of thing. If there were any love or if they valued the relationship in any way, they would not be hopping into another relationship right away.

[patientandclear]

Conundrum, your prediction about reactions to what you were going to write has been largely fulfilled ... .but thank you so much.  I agree with so much of what you said.  Particularly that we are the experts -- I think hardly any therapists actually understand the actual dynamic of a BPD relationship.  You really have to live it to get the incredible complexity and contradiction and power and potential for mutual harm and hurt.

However, our expertise is compromised by our own hurt & our reaction to it.  We have our own powerful defense mechanisms that we cling to ("it wasn't real," "he never loved me".  Just like the defense mechanisms of pwBPD, these statements are hurtful to us, but they explain things in a way that we at least can try to get a handle on.  It is much more difficult to do what you're asking us to do: accept that they did or do love us, and it still plays out this way.  That's the true heartbreak of all this for me.

I think Myself is correct too though.  That deep, original, genuine love I do think pwBPD often feel for us (in a significant r/s) gets so muddied by projection and defenses.  They love us BUT then in their minds, we betray them.  So now that love is complicated. If we really did the things to them they expect us to do or believe we have done, for them to continue to love us would be pretty masochistic.  Interesting.  I've never thought about that.  Once you accept the delusions, maybe them leaving us is actually a healthy step and an act of self-love.  It's the only way their defenses have left them to take care of/protect themselves.  How awful.

The truth of Conundrum's basic point (that they do care, they do love) comes through for me not in the words or decisions of pwBPD but in my own experience, and in many of the stories I've read here, in the little signs & gestures that wouldn't make any sense if they don't care.  My uBPDexbf, with whom I'm still in fairly close contact, pretty much falls apart if we're together for more than 4-5 hours.  I can see in his face and his eyes the intense pain it causes him.  The pain is real.  What the hell is he supposed to do about it?  He can't just stay with me and ignore it -- it's too debilitating and it changes the way he feels about me, while it's going on.  We can all say he should "get help" but really, the evidence that there is any comprehensive "help" for this problem is slim.  :)BT may help manage the dysfunction and limit the damage.  It doesn't prevent the awful feelings that the person you love is going to hurt (smother/abandon/colonize/annihilate) you.

So what that leaves us with is ... .a  mess.  The incoherent messy partial thing that he & I call a friendship but I know is more (he will not admit it is more but he shows that it is in lots of ways).  The incoherent messy partial thing that Conundrum describes in the last year with the woman he's connected to.  Many similar messy connections.  This is the result of actual love that doesn't work out in any normal or easy way.

[ucmeicu2]

Despite whatever your person with BPD did to you, in most cases they loved you as much as you loved them (if not more), and if that relationship lasted a while they will always have love for you within their hearts.

<cut> Here's the breakdown. The things they don't tell you in the psychology tomes. The places where the shrinks don't go because they haven't lived with these people. It's sort of a joke, we rely on these professionals, but all along we're the experts.

You see, here's the answer. Despite whatever they've done to you. They loved you exactly as much as you loved them. Isn't that a relief. It doesn't matter that they cheated on you, if they left you. They loved you as much as you loved them.

Their actions are not illustrative of their love.

i don't find it at all shocking, or offensive in the least, to see you write these things.  yet, i know i'm recalcitrant  

i am my own guru.  i didn't trust my gut, i lead myself astray.  now i try to trust the gut instinct feelings more.  it can be difficult b/c it sometimes (OFTEN, w/a pwBPD) flies in the face of rationale and/or of what my heart thinks it wants.

as to Love?  ha.  love is many things.  there are many kinds of love.  love is intangible, yet it's not.  no one can tell me about my "love experience" with xBPDgf more than myself.  i loved her more deeply, more connectedly, than anyone ever before.  and in my heart of hearts i feel it was the same for her.  why else did i become such a huge trigger for her?  if she did NOT love me she would have felt neutral for me and there would be no triggers.

that was an amazing time, with her.  she brought out both the best in me and the worst in me, and vice versa.  and if i am truly a "Non" then would i be negligent if i don't walk away?  wouldn't it be wrong to stay with her all the while knowing i was  triggering her?  such a beautiful person she can be, and such pain it caused me the day i realized i was her trigger.  i was her trigger.  and i didn't have an ounce of strength left in me by that point in the r/s.  i was almost destroyed.  so, clearly, SHE was MY trigger as well!  ha!  the match made in heaven.

i can't help but wonder... if i had had better communication skills and had known then what i do now abt BPD, and had more reasonable expectations abt her and a r/s w/her, would we have fared better?  could we have had a happy life together?

thanx for the great post, conundrum.

[Aw511]

I found comfort in your post... .Thank you. Today I said goodbye to my BPD ex for what I hope is the last time. I am moving 2,000 miles away in two weeks, have changed my number, and blocked him on FB. One of the last things he said to me was that he loves me. Throughout our relationship, and after the breakup, I would get angry when he told me he loved me. How could this person claim to love me, when he treats me the way he does, lies, cheats, withdraws, manipulates. I would yell at him in the midst of the insanity "stop telling me you love me when you don't even know what that word means!" But deep down I knew he did, in some weird twisted way, the only way he is capable of... .It is comforting to feel like I am not crazy, that he did feel love in his heart, at times, between moments of what felt like hate. I am not grateful for this experience, maybe someday I will get to that point, but I am grateful that I was strong enough to care for someone who was extremely difficult to love most of the time. When you love someone, you want them to be happy, and that is my only wish for him. Again, thank you. Your post gave me some peace today.

[patientandclear]

I also wanted to comment that I think you're onto something, Conundrum, about how they love you but they don't know why.

Early on when everything seemed wonderful, I wrote my ex a list of reasons I thought he was so great.  You know, reasons I loved him.

He responded "of all the reasons I love you -- and there are so many -- the most striking is that you consistently ask about me."

Huh?  And he never did explain what the other reasons were.

Even then, mid-bliss, this made me scratch my head.  (Though it also kicked my solicitousness into overdrive -- he wanted me to ask about him! Man, did I ever, after that.)  He was saying he loved about me something that I have in common with about 50% of all the women on this planet, some basic common courtesy ... .it made me wonder about his r/ships with all the women who had gone before me (it helped a little that he'd suggested there weren't all that many of them ... .counterfactually).  Had he really had the bad luck to only be involved with women who were completely self-centered and only talked about themselves?  Astonishing, if true, but OK, I thought, I'll be different!

I do think he loved me, and I think he loves me.  Even today, I think if you pushed him about why I'm important to him, he'd be hard pressed to answer in terms of any particular qualities of mine.  It's mostly in terms of what I do for him in his life.  And if that's so, then of course, the minute it doesn't feel that way right now, the basis for the love vanishes.  Why love is like a light switch.

[RecycledNoMore]

Page 771

Gulfstream graduates

Do they love or do we fill a need?

[Numbers]

Windows into her true soul were rare and brief. But today I can recognize them for what they were.

One day she broke up with me, wanted me to drive her home, changed her mind on the way and by the time we reached her house she was begging me to stay.

A bit later she dysregulated again and said through tears:

"I cannot be without you. I do not know why that is so, but it's tearing me apart."

So, to expand on original post - there was certainly something strong going on inside her mind. Maybe even love. But whatever it was, she did not understand it. Probably just a consequence of undeveloped capability to be intimate.

We experienced on our own skin how love is powerful. Now imagine if you could not understand what is this unbeliveably strong sensation that is taking hold of you. It would be scary, right? And you would fight against it. And you would blame your partner for making you feel this way. And fight back.

We just might have stumbled onto something important here. This mechanic would explain why BPD manifests only in most ate relationships and also how they turn for the worse the better you are.

Diclaimer: this still does not justify the destruction she wrecked upon my soul, heart and life.

[damage control]

My ex told me ... some months in ... that he doesn't experience 'love' ... he doesn't understand it and doesn't know what it is. He said he may have been in love once, as a teenager, but when she left him ... he decided that it was not worthwhile to form attachments.

Not long after that, he told me he loved me ... and the conversation was confusing and perhaps a great example of the paradox of BPD thinking on the subject::

Him: I love you

Me: I am confused. Why are you saying that (thinking to myself What the heck? given what he had said)

Him: Because I do.

Him: But if I must love you ... this will be no gentle love ... it will be all-consuming.

Me: But I thought you didn't feel love?

HIm: I don't

Me:Then why say you love me?

Him: Because I do.

That is pretty much verbatim ... .we didn't get much further than that ... I was tearing my hair out trying to figure out what the hell it all meant ...

[DragoN]

that was an amazing time, with her.  she brought out both the best in me and the worst in me, and vice versa. and if i am truly a "Non" then would i be negligent if i don't walk away?  wouldn't it be wrong to stay with her all the while knowing i was  triggering her?  such a beautiful person she can be, and such pain it caused me the day i realized i was her trigger.  i was her trigger.  and i didn't have an ounce of strength left in me by that point in the r/s.  i was almost destroyed.  so, clearly, SHE was MY trigger as well!  ha!  the match made in heaven.

Similar, the best and the beast in both. I didn't know I had a beast until I had been pushed past the point of reason. His concept of love was such that the harder we / I fought the more true and deeper was our love. It was really sick. In the end, as these relationships must end, he could no longer provoke me and get a response. I was past caring. Too detached to be drawn into the storm in a teacup.